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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:25 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Zsuy16NyNT0#!

    Now this is interesting: S-300 testing at night, plus UAV footage of the event.
    UAV is the new Israeli one.
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:56 pm

    New Upgraded missiles for S-400 Triumph ....borrowing tech form S-500 development?
    Source: cant find the link , but i read it on a news site Sad

    S-400 dilivery to Kaliningrad Begins. Batteries Activated:
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-eu-russia-missiles,0,3376201.story?track=rss
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    Post  Viktor on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:58 pm

    New long range missile 40N6 is taken in production as test continue.

    I suspect it will cause quite a fuss when 40N6 is delivered to functional working S-400 in Kaliningrad or more to it in Belarus on Poland border by 2015.


    04/06/12 A NEW LONG-RANGE MISSILE FOR THE S-400 WILL GO TO THE RUSSIAN AIR FORCE
    April 6 2012 .

    RIA Novosti reported. Long-range missiles for air defense missile systems (SAM), S-400 "Triumph" in the near future will go into service of the Air Force (Air Force) Russia, told reporters on Friday the head of anti-aircraft missile troops of the Russian Air Force Maj. Gen. Victor Humenny.

    "Long-range missile for the S-400 is ready, it is produced, and very soon will go into service in those shelves, which are already on combat duty," - said Humenny.

    According to the general, long-range missile tests still in progress and will continue. He noted that the claimed specifications have been confirmed in the tests. Previously, the Defense Ministry signed a contract for the supply of long-range missiles for S-400.

    Humenny also said that S-400 in 2012 and subsequently will be placed in the coastal and border areas of Russia .

    "Unlike previous years, when the system came in the suburbs, these systems will be located in the coastal and border areas," - said the general. When asked by reporters whether S-400 is delivered to the troops this year, he said that "the addition is sure to be."

    S-400 "Triumph" - a system of large and medium-range new generation. It is designed to defeat all current and future air and space attack - reconnaissance aircraft, aircraft of strategic and tactical aircraft, tactical and operational-tactical ballistic missiles, intermediate range ballistic missiles, hypersonic targets, jammers, radar patrol aircraft and guidance systems and other .
    http://ria.ru
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:52 am

    I am sure a lot of westerners would be wondering what is the point of basing S-400s in their midst as a counter to the ABM shield... what is a SAM supposed to do to an ABM system.

    Very simply the S-400 comes with some very capable radar systems that will look hundreds of kms into NATO airspace.

    The long range S-400 missiles inside europe create a danger area with a radius of 400km, which means a circle around its location with a diameter of 800km where a missile might flash out of the sky and shoot you down... in your own airspace!

    There was talk about a large AESA radar for S-400 that was expected to have a range of 2,500km or something too.

    But it is OK because like an ABM system it is a defensive system so NATO has nothing to worry about...
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:32 am

    GarryB wrote:I am sure a lot of westerners would be wondering what is the point of basing S-400s in their midst as a counter to the ABM shield... what is a SAM supposed to do to an ABM system.

    Very simply the S-400 comes with some very capable radar systems that will look hundreds of kms into NATO airspace.

    The long range S-400 missiles inside europe create a danger area with a radius of 400km, which means a circle around its location with a diameter of 800km where a missile might flash out of the sky and shoot you down... in your own airspace!

    There was talk about a large AESA radar for S-400 that was expected to have a range of 2,500km or something too.

    But it is OK because like an ABM system it is a defensive system so NATO has nothing to worry about...
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    Post  SOC on Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:24 am

    GarryB wrote:I am sure a lot of westerners would be wondering what is the point of basing S-400s in their midst as a counter to the ABM shield... what is a SAM supposed to do to an ABM system.

    Why? It's the logical replacement for the S-200...the last unit of which remained in Kaliningrad. It's also an important area, and being cut off from Russia moving an S-400 to Kaliningrad makes perfectly good sense as the enclave's S-300PS batteries aren't as capable as, say, the S-300PM batteries around Murmansk and the Russian Northern Fleet bases.

    GarryB wrote:Very simply the S-400 comes with some very capable radar systems that will look hundreds of kms into NATO airspace.

    For those of you that might be unaware, they can ALREADY see hundreds of kilometers into NATO airspace. BIG BIRD radars supporting the S-300PS batteries give you a 300 km range, and 55Zh6 TALL RACK counter-VLO systems can range out at least 400 km. And then there's the Voronezh-series BMEW radar being built.

    Sure, they'll want you to THINK this is some sort of quasi-political response, but in reality they've talked about offing that last S-200 battery with an S-400 for a good while now.

    GarryB wrote:There was talk about a large AESA radar for S-400 that was expected to have a range of 2,500km or something too.

    I think that was MARS, and it's actually associated with the S-500 if I remember everything right.

    GarryB wrote:But it is OK because like an ABM system it is a defensive system so NATO has nothing to worry about...

    Why is NATO supposed to care now? The Russians have already had a crapload of NATO airspace under observation, and SAM systems have already enjoyed the ability to range well into NATO airspace.
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    Post  medo on Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:32 pm

    I think 400 km range 40N6 missiles will be only in Russian VKO units and inside Russian territory around strategically important places, while outside Russia and near border units will have only standard missiles for political reasons, but could be installed on them if needed.

    S-400 in VKO, equipped with 40N6 missiles already have large AESA radars in new Voronezh radars and other OTH radars. For independent work S-400 have 91N6 radar with 600 km range and this year VKO will also receive Nebo-M AESA radar complexes, which will work in different bands and with passive detecting systems, which are also important part of VKO capabilities.

    I wonder if Kaliningrad S-400 unit also receive Pantsirs for their protection.
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:35 am

    [/quote] And then there's the Voronezh-series BMEW radar being built[quote]

    I think that Voronezh series BMEW can detect aerodynamics target from a distance max about 500 km.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:10 pm

    Gents, random question about the systems, probably asked and answered this before, but hey, can't remember everything, and I figure one of you remembers Smile

    1.) S-300VM maximum target speed is 4500 meters per second. S-300V was over 3000 meters per second. Any numbers on S-300V4?
    2.) 48N6 (so Favorit and Triumph) is ~2100 meters per second (max target speed)? What is this number expected to be for the big missile?

    So, due to that huge booster and average missile and target speed, the S300V series and relatives are still kings of high speed interception...how does this translate to aircraft interception?
    No similar booster assembly considered for S-300P and onwards family?


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    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:00 am

    Thanks for correction Sean. The numbers are better than I thought.


    So, given the speed of the targets the complex can engage, and the huge booster section, would the 9M82 of the S-300V be the most potent (pre-S-400) anti-aircraft missile Russia had...at least within its engagement range, that I guess was generally lower than contemporary PMU systems?

    Could you elaborate what you specifically meant by endgame guidance handling?

    Thanks in advance, I am sure you have answered this 100 times.

    Very interested in S-300V4 characteristics.

    EDIT: Oh and while we are at it,
    https://i.servimg.com/u/f43/15/83/83/58/0210.jpg
    Never really figured out what this was. Read it was Russian Kalchuga-M? Any details?
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:23 am

    First :

    Russian missile manufacturer Almaz Antei will build a new air defense systems plant in the Nizhny Novgorod region by 2015, regional industry minister Vladimir Nefyodov said on Monday.

    “It will be a modern enterprise that will be able to manufacture advanced products,” he said. “Financial resources have been provided for the purpose and the work going according to schedule.”

    The ministry said in 2011 that the plant will go into operation before the end of 2013.

    The minister gave no reason for the delay.

    Almaz Antei manufactures S-300 and S-400 Triumph surface to air missile (SAM) systems among other products.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120409/172710101.html

    Second :

    Russia has deployed a battalion of S-400 Triumph air defense missile systems at a Baltic Fleet base in the exclave of Kaliningrad, the Izvestia daily reported on Monday.

    This is the third base to deploy an S-400 battalion. The other two are located in the Moscow region.

    Air Force chief of staff Major General Viktor Bondarev said in mid-March that one S-400 battalion was currently being deployed at Nakhodka [Russia’s Far East].

    By 2020, Russia is to have 28 S-400 regiments, each comprised of two battalions, mainly in maritime and border areas.

    The S-400 Triumph long- to medium-range surface-to-air missile system can effectively engage any aerial target, including aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles, and cruise and ballistic missiles at up to 400 kilometers and an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.

    The Russian Defense Ministry has said there are no plans so far to export the S-400, which will be produced only for the Russian Armed Forces.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120409/172702870.html
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    Post  SOC on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:18 am

    TR1 wrote:Thanks for correction Sean. The numbers are better than I thought.


    So, given the speed of the targets the complex can engage, and the huge booster section, would the 9M82 of the S-300V be the most potent (pre-S-400) anti-aircraft missile Russia had...at least within its engagement range, that I guess was generally lower than contemporary PMU systems?

    The S-300PM (48N6 missiles) was arguably more capable due to the greater engagement range, although you would've done fine with either system.

    TR1 wrote:Could you elaborate what you specifically meant by endgame guidance handling?

    The actual guidance system doesn't turn on until endgame. Until that point, the missile is guided using midcourse corrections from the engagement radar, which is still operating in "search" mode, and less likely to present a "you've been shot at" indication to an RWR or ESM system.

    TR1 wrote:Oh and while we are at it,
    https://i.servimg.com/u/f43/15/83/83/58/0210.jpg
    Never really figured out what this was. Read it was Russian Kalchuga-M? Any details?

    Kolchuga/Kolchuga-M are passive ESM sensors designed to triangulate airborne emitters. Lets you track targets without having to turn on radars and give the game away.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:29 am

    I was under the impression Kalchuga was Ukranian, who is the producer of Russian Kolchuga-M?

    Thanks for all the info btw.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:53 am

    The RV reenters the Earth's atmosphere at velocities of up to Mach M 25, as the RV passes through the atmosphere, atmospheric friction decelerates it to below M 1,

    Mach 25 would equate to about 8km/s which is about right.

    Atmospheric friction slowing the warhead to mach 1 however is way off... Scud missiles modified to extend their range by Iraq were coming in at about mach 7 at ranges of 500-600km and a scud is a big empty missile when it falls... all its fuel tanks are empty so by volume it is actually quite light.

    In comparison nuclear missile warheads are very compact and therefore relatively dense and very efficient aerodynamic shapes to minimise speed loss.

    If Patriot could engage ICBM warheads why couldn't it defeat Scud warheads?

    More importantly how did Patriot get developed at a time when there was an ABM treaty in force?

    The simple answer is that while it travels in space at about 8km/s it doesn't slow down all that much in the air and hits the ground at something like 7.5km/s.

    So, given the speed of the targets the complex can engage, and the huge booster section, would the 9M82 of the S-300V be the most potent (pre-S-400) anti-aircraft missile Russia had...at least within its engagement range, that I guess was generally lower than contemporary PMU systems?

    The two stage design of the SA-12A and the SA-12B was largely for speed rather than range.

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    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:02 am

    Right, that's what I mean, due to the speed advantage within the admittedly smaller engagement envelope (compared to S-300PM) would the S-300V not be more potent, because of the energy advantage?

    Or are the 5V55 and 48N6 better suited for maneuvering targets?

    Needless to both are potent, but I am just musing here.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:16 pm

    SOC,Garry

    No. At 100,000 feet, the RV is still moving at about Mach 20. Speed drops off from there due to the ballsitic coefficient of the RV design.

    Mach 25 would equate to about 8km/s which is about right.

    Atmospheric friction slowing the warhead to mach 1 however is way off... Scud missiles modified to extend their range by Iraq were coming in at about mach 7 at ranges of 500-600km and a scud is a big empty missile when it falls... all its fuel tanks are empty so by volume it is actually quite light.

    In comparison nuclear missile warheads are very compact and therefore relatively dense and very efficient aerodynamic shapes to minimise speed loss.

    If Patriot could engage ICBM warheads why couldn't it defeat Scud warheads?

    More importantly how did Patriot get developed at a time when there was an ABM treaty in force?

    The simple answer is that while it travels in space at about 8km/s it doesn't slow down all that much in the air and hits the ground at something like 7.5km/s.

    The two are same because air friction generates drag which is afactor in the Ballistic coefficient equation (beta factor is adomenator in the equation ) so when friction increase leads to drag increase so ballistic coefficient decrease and warhead speed decrease ,

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1 - Page 12 999999999999999


    I don't know what is the recent values of beta for new russian ballistic missile but beta=5000 will be the best where the warhead speed at 0 altitude will be 3.048 km/s (over 8 Mach Smile ) and this is the best value achieved from the previous diagram ,

    So Garry i think this is the only beta value that make patriot can't intercept Topol-M , but we shouldn't forget that as beta increase , the entry temperature increase ,so new more efficient methods should be used to decrease this temperature ,and we are talking about Patriot-pac 3 not PAC 2 .

    Anyone know any Approximate BETA values for the new world ballistic missiles specially for russia and iran ?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:25 am

    The two are same because air friction generates drag which is afactor in the Ballistic coefficient equation (beta factor is adomenator in the equation ) so when friction increase leads to drag increase so ballistic coefficient decrease and warhead speed decrease ,

    Ballistic coefficient doesn't change that much with speed.

    A good example of ballistic coefficient changing to greatly slow down an object would be some guy jumping out of a plane. As he falls he is both accelerated by gravity at 9.8m/s/s, so if we round it up to 10m/s/s we can say that after the first second he is falling at 10m/s and after the 3 seconds falling at 30m/s, but because of his volume and weight and shape or his ballistic coefficient he will accelerate up to what is called his terminal velocity.

    This is the speed at which his body can fall through the air before the force of drag through the air equals the force of gravity pulling him down... if he stands up or falls head first he will fall much faster than if he falls spread eagle horizontally with his arms and legs out.

    When he pulls the rip cord on his parachute all of a sudden his volume increases so the drag of the air goes up several hundred times and he rapidly slows down to a safe to land falling speed.

    An aerodynamically shaped object with ablative material on its front that prevents it from burning up and disintegrating will have very very low drag and will not be effected anywhere near as much by the atmosphere slowing it down.

    The Space shuttle on the other hand had about 2 billion dollars spent on it to find a perfect shape to act as an air brake to allow it to slow down as it fell so it could be landed like an aircraft.

    I have seen photos of reentry vehicles coming into the target area and they appear on the photo as lines of light because they move so fast they appear as blurs kms long.
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    Post  medo on Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:37 am

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/04/13/cruise/

    In the Russian Far East, S-300 crews first time fire against real Kh-55 cruise missiles launched from Tu-95MC and other type of targets together with Buks and Osas. It seems cruise missiles are such bit treat for competent and modern air defense.
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    Post  Viktor on Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:29 pm

    medo wrote:http://lenta.ru/news/2012/04/13/cruise/

    In the Russian Far East, S-300 crews first time fire against real Kh-55 cruise missiles launched from Tu-95MC and other type of targets together with Buks and Osas. It seems cruise missiles are such bit treat for competent and modern air defense.

    In a simulated air defense exercise air defense systems need to shoot down various simulated

    cruise missiles flying at different speed and attitude and ballistic missiles of different types at

    the same time. On the other hand this is the first time I have read real cruise missiles have

    being shoot down at the same time.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:52 pm

    Factory "Avangard" where the missiles are produced:

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    Post  Corrosion on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:01 am

    Well basically your Bomb should be very dense, longest conical shape with sharpest tip possible taking into account the heat concentration in the tip for it to fall at fastest velocity. And warhead with a high Ballistic coefficient starts deceleration at much lower altitude as well.

    If a bomb is spherical only then it will decelerate to a velocity below mach 1. If it is long cone (falling tip first), it will keep falling at very high velocity. Even if your cone is with a blunted tip as missiles are, it will still fall at very high speed.

    Lets say if bomb cone diameter is 1m. And its length is 3m and it's weight is 500kg(Payload + extra) with a blunt cone shape. Now if my calculations are correct, its theoretical Ballistic Coefficient should be around 10800kg/m^2. It will be traveling at 2.5 km/s(9000km/h) when it hits ground, if it was 25000km/h(Mach 20) at 100km altitude.

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    Post  Arrow on Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:41 pm

    www.militaryparitet.com/ttp/data/ic_ttp/1115/

    This missile in picture 40N6 ?
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    Post  SOC on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:44 am

    Nah, those are just 48N6 rounds.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:48 am

    it is very strange that they did not show a model 40N6 Neutral 9M96 shown many years ago...
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    Post  SOC on Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:12 am

    It's not THAT strange. They only just displayed the R-33S, and they've never displayed the 53T6.

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