Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+56
KomissarBojanchev
Hisroyalhighness
Big_Gazza
Osobist
Akula971
Teshub
Karl Haushofer
Walther von Oldenburg
magnumcromagnon
type055
Inetwarrior
Cyberspec
Bolt
Cowboy's daughter
flamming_python
whir
collegeboy16
Viktor
Monarchist
Morpheus Eberhardt
alexZam
medo
par far
Vann7
GarryB
Cahaba
Rodinazombie
TheArmenian
sepheronx
ExBeobachter1987
gregoire
Mr.Comrade
macedonian
max steel
KoTeMoRe
Regular
etaepsilonk
higurashihougi
Khepesh
auslander
Erk
Werewolf
Admin
franco
cheesfactory
Airbornewolf
Godric
BKP
Ghoster
PapaDragon
Flagship Victory
mack8
George1
Neutrality
kvs
AlfaT8
60 posters

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:11 pm

    The people who are calling for a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine severely underestimate the consequences of such a move. Full blown anti-Russian sanctions until the maximum, international outcry (WE TOLD YOU PUTIN WAS EVIL!), potentially losing support of key allies, etc. How exactly did Putin lose in Ukraine? Ukraine has lost both Crimea and Donbass for good and now they have growing anti-government sentiments in the country.

    Didn't the invasion of Afghanistan contribute to economic difficulties in the USSR which ultimately led to its downfall? I understand an invasion of Eastern Ukraine would be different since it would be about protecting the ethnic Russians. But an invasion is an invasion regardless of the reasons and goals. It brings tremendous human and economic costs. It's a very simple game. If the Eastern Ukrainians want to be saved from their neo fascist-apologist government they should act like it. I already said it and I will repeat it once more: I don't want to see how Ukrainians curse Russian soldiers on national TV for invading their country. And I don't want to see potential "Allah Snackbar/Slava Ukraine!" videos showing how Russian APCs get blown up by IEDs.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:15 pm

    Neutrality wrote:The people who are calling for a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine severely underestimate the consequences of such a move. Full blown anti-Russian sanctions until the maximum, international outcry (WE TOLD YOU PUTIN WAS EVIL!), potentially losing support of key allies, etc. How exactly did Putin lose in Ukraine? Ukraine has lost both Crimea and Donbass for good and now they have growing anti-government sentiments in the country.

    Didn't the invasion of Afghanistan contribute to economic difficulties in the USSR which ultimately led to its downfall? I understand an invasion of Eastern Ukraine would be different since it would be about protecting the ethnic Russians. But an invasion is an invasion regardless of the reasons and goals. It brings tremendous human and economic costs. It's a very simple game. If the Eastern Ukrainians want to be saved from their neo fascist-apologist government they should act like it. I already said it and I will repeat it once more: I don't want to see how Ukrainians curse Russian soldiers on national TV for invading their country. And I don't want to see potential "Allah Snackbar/Slava Ukraine!" videos showing how Russian APCs get blown up by IEDs.

    Russia's allies would respect Russia if Russia does the right thing, that is stopping genocide in Donba. If Russia does not do that, then Russia's allies may leave Russia. They would think if Russia does not even defend its own people right across the border, then how can Russia be depended on to defend them?

    Afghanistan never caused the USSR's downfall. It was the traitorous Belavezha Accords that broke up the USSR. Yeltsin arrested Gorbashev and imprisoned him in Yalta. It was a coup. The leaders of the Russian Ukrainian Belarussian SSRs wanted to be presidents so they broke up the USSR without any say from the other 12 SSRs. The USSR had been a very rich state. How many artillery shells has the putch regime lobbed at the people of Donbas? Millions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belavezha_Accords


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Sun May 17, 2015 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:20 pm

    So showing support to donbass is invasion? No, dont invade, but support donbass and lugansk. If they show open support, others may join. Add in it, that this whole thing could speed up if Putin DIDNT sell gas at discoubt for Ukraine. But no, they are trying to keep Kiev afloat.

    BTW, Russia invaded Georgia even during economic hardship, won, pulled back. What has happened since? Georgia isnt anywhere near foaming at mouth enemy of Russia s it was during Suckasshevilli ruled.

    This time? They are keeping kiev afloat while not openly helping Novorussia. They are not gonna gain any more friends in Ukraine, and Kiev will stay afloat regardless and still be foam at the mouth anti Russian. So Putin is doing west more favours than they are doing for themselves.

    And yes, Russian allies would see Russia weak and will fold quickly under US pressure cause they would know Russia would not come to aid them in their need. US has invaded and stripped countries of their land, their rights, their safety and many of their lives, yet US is growing in number of allies while Russia is losing.

    Heck, Iran has gained more allies recently than Russia.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sun May 17, 2015 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:24 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    BTW, Russia invaded Georgia even during economic hardship, won, pulled back. What has happened since? Georgia isnt anywhere near foaming at mouth enemy of Russia s it was during Suckasshevilli ruled.


    In Georgia, there was an obvious casus belli which gave Russia legitimacy to invade and stop their batshit insane president. Ironic enough, it was Putin who had to force Medvedev's hand to act. Right now the resistance (Novorussian army) is holding well. There's no need for an invasion by the Russian army but the Russian government does provide assistance where it can.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:26 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So showing support to donbass is invasion? No, dont invade, but support donbass and lugansk. If they show open support, others may join. Add in it, that this whole thing could speed up if Putin DIDNT sell gas at discoubt for Ukraine. But no, they are trying to keep Kiev afloat.

    BTW, Russia invaded Georgia even during economic hardship, won, pulled back. What has happened since? Georgia isnt anywhere near foaming at mouth enemy of Russia s it was during Suckasshevilli ruled.

    This time? They are keeping kiev afloat while not openly helping Novorussia. They are not gonna gain any more friends in Ukraine, and Kiev will stay afloat regardless and still be foam at the mouth anti Russian. So Putin is doing west more favours than they are doing for themselves.

    And yes, Russian allies would see Russia weak and will fold quickly under US pressure cause they would know Russia would not come to aid them in their need. US has invaded and stripped countries of their land, their rights, their safety and many of their lives, yet US is growing in number of allies while Russia is losing.

    Heck, Iran has gained more allies recently than Russia.

    Russia never invaded Georgia. By the early 1990s, Georgia had already lost control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia invaded Abkhazia and South Ossetia, killed Russian peacekeepers there. That's why Russia helped Abkahzia and South Ossetia beat off Georgia.
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:26 pm

    What the fuck is happening in Macedonia right now? Anyone who has been closely following the events? How the hell could a small scale incident lead to a full blown opposition protest?
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:27 pm

    How do we know Putin forced medvedevs hand? I doubt that. Medvedev showed more backbone.

    Causis belli was the killing of Russian peacekeepers? But Ukrainian bombs killing civies in Rostov isnt one? BS.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:28 pm

    Neutrality wrote:What the fuck is happening in Macedonia right now? Anyone who has been closely following the events? How the hell could a small scale incident lead to a full blown opposition protest?

    An up rising does not happen on its own. Arab Spring was a project of the US government, to rid Russia of its Libya and Syria allies. You see post Gaddafi Libya voted against Russia regarding Crimea. Maidan was a project of the US government to have Ukraine become a NATO state. The one in Macedonia is a project of the US government to cause a domino effect in Serbia with goal of rid Russia of its Serbia ally.

    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:31 pm

    sepheronx wrote:How do we know Putin forced medvedevs hand? I doubt that. Medvedev showed more backbone.

    Causis belli was the killing of Russian peacekeepers? But Ukrainian bombs killing civies in Rostov isnt one? BS.

    I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:33 pm

    Neutrality wrote:I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.

    No it wasn't. Donbas resistance deserves more credit than they are given. Afterall, Ukraine inherited huge piles of Soviet arms, and so did Donbas. If Russian regular troops were involved, Kiev would have fallen, not just Illovaisk.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:37 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.

    No it wasn't. Donbas resistance deserves more credit than they are given. Afterall, Ukraine inherited huge piles of Soviet arms, and so did Donbas. If Russian regular troops were involved, Kiev would have fallen, not just Illovaisk.

    Exactly. People here are clinging to hopes and possibilities. but are not seeing what is happening. Kiev still goes ahead and kills people, donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment, and Kiev foaming at mouth anti Russian stance allows them to kill innocense around the country with impunity, and they get to survive longer to do that, by getting cheap gas from Russia, as well as Russia not demanding their money back. So effectively, Russia is aiding kiev in their murders like US is.
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:38 pm

    The talk about Putin selling out Donbass are unsubstantiated IMHO. Why are Merkel, Kerry and now Nuland suddenly travelling to Moscow? Putin and his government are doing something that scares them, we just don't know what. Kerry's and Nuland's visit are opposite to what Obama has been preaching: political isolation of Russia.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:40 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.

    No it wasn't. Donbas resistance deserves more credit than they are given. Afterall, Ukraine inherited huge piles of Soviet arms, and so did Donbas. If Russian regular troops were involved, Kiev would have fallen, not just Illovaisk.

    Exactly. People here are clinging to hopes and possibilities. but are not seeing what is happening. Kiev still goes ahead and kills people, donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment, and Kiev foaming at mouth anti Russian stance allows them to kill innocense around the country with impunity, and they get to survive longer to do that, by getting cheap gas from Russia, as well as Russia not demanding their money back. So effectively, Russia is aiding kiev in their murders like US is.

    I suppose Putin cannot openly use the Russian army to destroy Novorossiya because Russia's right wing folks are quite powerful. LDPR and even Just Russia are very supportive of Novorossiya. Putin can only hope that Ukraine armed with US weapons can destroy Novorossiya. The US and the EU sanction Russia, Putin simply stands there and takes the blows and not fight back by sanctioning the US and the EU. The US lies that, for the sanctions on Russia to go away, Novorossiya must be dstroyed as a condition, but after that, not only is Novorossiya destroyed, US sanctions on Russia will remain and even expand. The US already lied about not expanding NATO to Russia's border. Putin would be a fool to believe the US's words.


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Sun May 17, 2015 5:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:40 pm

    sepheronx wrote:donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment

    There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing what kind of equipment the resistance is getting. Latest Kenwood walkie talkies, very solid kevlar protection, tactical glasses, anti shrapnel goggles, tactical gants and much more.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:41 pm

    Neutrality wrote:The talk about Putin selling out Donbass are unsubstantiated IMHO. Why are Merkel, Kerry and now Nuland suddenly travelling to Moscow? Putin and his government are doing something that scares them, we just don't know what. Kerry's and Nuland's visit are opposite to what Obama has been preaching: political isolation of Russia.

    It is nothing. All of it is a show. Kerry and Nuland are going to try to show a saving face for their allies in europe by going to Russia and promise them this and that, but will go back to US and encourage Ukraine to act like the mongrols they are, and then blame Russia even more and say "we tried to reason with them but they wont and blah blah blah, Russia is evil and such" while Putin will still sit on his collective ass and do nothing while Donbass and Lugansk keep defending themselves.
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:44 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:Putin can only hope that Ukraine armed with US weapons can destroy Novorossiya.

    Can you stop just for a few moments and think before you write total BS like that? My god, what the in the hell am I reading.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:46 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment

    There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing what kind of equipment the resistance is getting. Latest Kenwood walkie talkies, very solid kevlar protection, tactical glasses, anti shrapnel goggles, tactical gants and much more.

    No thanks to Putin. All of those are from spasidonbass.ru, donated by civilians. All the armor have spasidonbass.ru on them.

    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:47 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    It is nothing. All of it is a show. Kerry and Nuland are going to try to show a saving face for their allies in europe by going to Russia and promise them this and that, but will go back to US and encourage Ukraine to act like the mongrols they are, and then blame Russia even more and say "we tried to reason with them but they wont and blah blah blah, Russia is evil and such" while Putin will still sit on his collective ass and do nothing while Donbass and Lugansk keep defending themselves.

    Yatsenyuk already expressed he's annoyed with Kerry's visit to Sochi. Look, Putin wasn't born yesterday and he's not going to play nicely with Obama's administration after what happened.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:49 pm

    The US made it very clear. No end to sanction on Russia until Russia returns Crimea to Ukraine and Novorossiya is destroyed. Now the ball is in Putin's court. If Putin does that, Ukraine becomes a NATO state. If Putin does not, then status quo will continue unless Putin arms NAF which takes power in Kiev.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:49 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment

    There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing what kind of equipment the resistance is getting. Latest Kenwood walkie talkies, very solid kevlar protection, tactical glasses, anti shrapnel goggles, tactical gants and much more.

    No thanks to Putin. All of those are from spasidonbass.ru, donated by civilians. All the armor have spasidonbass.ru on them.


    Yeap, most to all have been contributions by average donators and oligarches in Russia who are more men than Putin
    Only contributions I have seen are to Lugansk and seems to be those Kamaz armored vehicles and two supposed pantsir's that may be unidentifiable as to location.
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:51 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment

    There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing what kind of equipment the resistance is getting. Latest Kenwood walkie talkies, very solid kevlar protection, tactical glasses, anti shrapnel goggles, tactical gants and much more.

    No thanks to Putin. All of those are from spasidonbass.ru, donated by civilians. All the armor have spasidonbass.ru on them.


    Yeap, most to all have been contributions by average donators and oligarches in Russia who are more men than Putin
    Only contributions I have seen are to Lugansk and seems to be those Kamaz armored vehicles and two supposed pantsir's that may be unidentifiable as to location.

    I'm sure military intelligence is being exchanged as well.
    Flagship Victory
    Flagship Victory


    Posts : 973
    Points : 921
    Join date : 2015-04-28
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Flagship Victory Sun May 17, 2015 5:54 pm

    Neutrality wrote:I'm sure military intelligence is being exchanged as well.

    In the west where I live, no proof means nada. You can guess speculate all you want, but it means nada. As far as evidence all, Putin has not aided NAF in any way.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:54 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    It is nothing. All of it is a show. Kerry and Nuland are going to try to show a saving face for their allies in europe by going to Russia and promise them this and that, but will go back to US and encourage Ukraine to act like the mongrols they are, and then blame Russia even more and say "we tried to reason with them but they wont and blah blah blah, Russia is evil and such" while Putin will still sit on his collective ass and do nothing while Donbass and Lugansk keep defending themselves.

    Yatsenyuk already expressed he's annoyed with Kerry's visit to Sochi. Look, Putin wasn't born yesterday and he's not going to play nicely with Obama's administration after what happened.

    All a show. Let us see what happens in coming months. There will be more attacks then Russia being condemned again. Like the other guy said, sanctions wont drop till Crimea is handed back. Putin will probably wont give back Crimea, but may meet half way with eastern Ukraine.
    Neutrality
    Neutrality


    Posts : 888
    Points : 906
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality Sun May 17, 2015 5:55 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:I'm sure military intelligence is being exchanged as well.

    In the west where I live, no proof means nada. You can guess speculate all you want, but it means nada. As far as evidence all, Putin has not aided NAF in any way.

    It's top secret for a reason, if you and I saw something official about its existance then the GRU wouldn't be doing its job very well.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7552
    Points : 7818
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx Sun May 17, 2015 5:59 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:I'm sure military intelligence is being exchanged as well.

    In the west where I live, no proof means nada. You can guess speculate all you want, but it means nada. As far as evidence all, Putin has not aided NAF in any way.

    It's top secret for a reason, if you and I saw something official about its existance then the GRU wouldn't be doing its job very well.

    I can only hope that is true, that they are assisting novorussia. But with helping Kiev survive so they can keep up the attacks and killing people, gives me the indication that is false and that Novorussia is on their own while Putin assists Kiev. If they really did care, they would have told kiev to pay normal market price or go find it elsewhere and not try to help kiev stay afloat.

    Sponsored content


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:10 am