
Last edited by Neutrality on Tue May 05, 2015 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
etaepsilonk wrote:flamming_python wrote:
Those liberators from fascism are protecting the locals, not torturing them
Yes I know, I know, the Amnesty International and HRW reports.
Meanwhile we have dozens of actual videos worth of footage, of unarmed locals resisting the Ukrainian army, locals supporting the militia, militiamen proffessing themselves to be locals and recounting their past lives, all sorts of atrocities and crimes by the Ukrainian side, artillery strikes on innocents with the innocents claiming that the Ukrainians are responsible, torture of prisoners, etc...
I'll believe the line about the militia being Russian invaders, occupiers and unwelcome for the local population, mostly or wholy Russian citizens, torturers, terrorists, etc... when I actually see evidence of it.
Ukraine made it's own bed in regards to its integrity; as did Georgia, various other post-Soviet countries, and indeed the Soviet Union itself did in 1989-1991.
Perhaps if it didn't decide to trample on the millions of votes and voices from the East, didn't violently throw out the elected preisdent who had near unanimous support in the Crimea, didn't start with nationalist hysteria and beatings of Party of Regions and Communist deputies in the Rada, etc... then Crimea might not have elected to secede and Russia wouldn't have decided to intervene.
Perhaps if the Ukrainian government then didn't decide to deal with the protest movement with political repression and arrests, seize control over all the media, use Neo-Nazi hooligans to violently scatter and bully protestors, and perhaps tried to negotiate first with the inevitable civil and then armed uprising that followed.. then the Ukraine wouldn't have lost the Donbass either.
When Gamsakhurdia of Georgia in 1991 or whenever it was - stated to his supporters that 'Ossetia is a lovely country - only w/o the Ossetians'... well - is it supposed to be any surprise today, to us - that Ossetia split away from Georgia?
Should one step in for its territorial integrity too? "It was all the evil Russians, you see"..
The American ambassador to Georgia, after meeting with Gamsakhurdia, promptly relayed to his government his dismay over this man's ideas, and declared him a nut that should not be supported.
Yet here we are with Kiev, in 2015; using the same sort of language, the same sort of tactics - yet now it's supported.
Yet now, it's the victim, and its 'territorial integrity is threatened'
Yet now, it's not fighting against its own people, it's fighting against a Russian invasion.
Bullshit
What will it lose next? Dunno, it's up to them and their decisions really. What I've seen so far gives me no grounds for optimism and I see it as very likely that the Ukrainian government will provoke or restart the war, make more mistakes, and ultimately destroy itself and break apart its own country even further.
I'm curious, what's your opinion about russians putting down the tambov rebellion?
KoTeMoRe wrote:I don't need to imagine anything. I have a vivid idea on how it works out, trying to root out people of their land. Albeit this is a kind of blasphemy here, Yugolsavia is a great example (not) on how you lose everything, when yo try to retain everything, by force.
TheArmenian wrote:Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government.![]()
RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.
I haven't seen that report on any other news channel.
I think the report from Izvestia is bovine excrement.
etaepsilonk wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:I don't need to imagine anything. I have a vivid idea on how it works out, trying to root out people of their land. Albeit this is a kind of blasphemy here, Yugolsavia is a great example (not) on how you lose everything, when yo try to retain everything, by force.
Yugoslavia is a great example how, with the government for fifty years pretending that it's all rainbows and unicorns with the nationality stuff, things might end up pretty badly.
Ukraine is another one
etaepsilonk wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:
Anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, are you or have you ever been a member of MP.net.
No.
And you are correct, ukraine's goal is genocide. Now, I understand that for your prorussian allegiance, it might be difficult to go past all the nazi, bandera, evilness cliches, but try to imagine yourself in the shoes of ukraine leadership. And here you're seeing all of those separatist warlords boasting how they'll drive for kiev. Wouldn't it be a matter of serious concern for maintaining your country's survival, to the point where every possible war strategy may become viable?
Or do you think that ukies are actually wishing to do what they've been doing, and not forced by the circumstances?
KoTeMoRe wrote:Yes including IMF loans...so come again, what am I supposed to see or understand about the current options picked by the Ukro leadership?
Donbas conflict is pretty old.
I once had the opportunity to attend a football match between donetsk ''shahtar'' and kiev ''dinamo'' clubs somewhere around 2006.
In it's entirety donetsk fans shouted ''davi khokhlov'', and kiev fans were shouting something about ''moskaliv''
When I asked my friend, donetsk native, what this is all about, since both teams were technically ukrainian, he said ''well, you see, donetsk is not ukraine''
etaepsilonk wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:Yes including IMF loans...so come again, what am I supposed to see or understand about the current options picked by the Ukro leadership?
Many countries have taken imf loans without descent into civil war afterwards...
You know, this ukraine conflict has been brewing up for quite a long time and I personally don't claim to understand all the peculiarities. As a result, I also find the expert commentaries from the people who never even heard of the country before it hit the news quite amusing (not aimed at anyone particular).
Here's one comment translation from the other site:
Donbas conflict is pretty old.
I once had the opportunity to attend a football match between donetsk ''shahtar'' and kiev ''dinamo'' clubs somewhere around 2006.
In it's entirety donetsk fans shouted ''davi khokhlov'', and kiev fans were shouting something about ''moskaliv''
When I asked my friend, donetsk native, what this is all about, since both teams were technically ukrainian, he said ''well, you see, donetsk is not ukraine''
KoTeMoRe wrote:
However this doesn't explain to me, where did you find the idea that the current Ukrainian leadership is forced to cleanse the territory of Donbass, because of the Separatists boasting they'll be za Lvov within the week? And how do you interpret that such a country as Ukraine fears a couple thousand guys with "some" RU-help? What does that tell you about the state of Ukraine?
Don't be shy.
etaepsilonk wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:
However this doesn't explain to me, where did you find the idea that the current Ukrainian leadership is forced to cleanse the territory of Donbass, because of the Separatists boasting they'll be za Lvov within the week? And how do you interpret that such a country as Ukraine fears a couple thousand guys with "some" RU-help? What does that tell you about the state of Ukraine?
Don't be shy.
Well, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The term ''genocide'' did not mean destruction of any particular ethnic group in this case, but rather, destruction of people, infrastructure in the adversary state (novorussia) to the point where a continuation of war for them would be as difficult as possible, if possible at all (total war strategy).
As you see, it is certainly not ''a clean war'' to win hearts and minds...
etaepsilonk wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:
However this doesn't explain to me, where did you find the idea that the current Ukrainian leadership is forced to cleanse the territory of Donbass, because of the Separatists boasting they'll be za Lvov within the week? And how do you interpret that such a country as Ukraine fears a couple thousand guys with "some" RU-help? What does that tell you about the state of Ukraine?
Don't be shy.
Well, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The term ''genocide'' did not mean destruction of any particular ethnic group in this case, but rather, destruction of people, infrastructure in the adversary state (novorussia) to the point where a continuation of war for them would be as difficult as possible, if possible at all (total war strategy).
As you see, it is certainly not ''a clean war'' to win hearts and minds...
Therefore, lots of resentment is produced which russia is quick to exploit for their own plan (which I talked about before).
Cowboy's daughter wrote:
No body has to "exploit" resentment. What you're describing is exactly what the North did to the South in our Civil War.
It's a fight to the bitter end, to whomever has the most resources and can win, and imho, in Ukraine that's the East, not the West.
& as for as resentment, resentment can last 150 years or longer.
So far the options have been proven idiotic at best, with both sides achieving the exact contrary of what they wanted. Ukraine is losing people and time in rebuilding its wrecked economy and Novorussia is gearing for a war it doesn't want to keep going.
etaepsilonk wrote:Cowboy's daughter wrote:
No body has to "exploit" resentment. What you're describing is exactly what the North did to the South in our Civil War.
It's a fight to the bitter end, to whomever has the most resources and can win, and imho, in Ukraine that's the East, not the West.
& as for as resentment, resentment can last 150 years or longer.
Poor innocent south, attacked by evil kentucky... oh wait![]()
Maybe You are right, but then again what authority does Poro have?flamming_python wrote:
Military coup in the Ukraine? A real Junta?![]()
As someone on that other forum said, Ukrainian generals can't even order their wives to make em a sandwich; WTH would they get the authority to command a nation?
This isn't some South American nation where the officer class is looked upon as a respected elite
But if it was about economics and the IMF, why shell the Donbass infrastructure to bits, and bomb the brand new Donetsk airport to rubble? I don't think it was as simple as that. I think Kiev were encouraged to destroy things by outsiders, because it doesn't make sense otherwise. All they had to do was reach a political settlement with Donbass before the fighting broke out last year, and everything would be intact and productive still. The destruction campaign is deliberate.Regular wrote:Let us remember who pushed Ukraine to start ATO.
It was IMF and their proposal - get Your land back or else You won't get any money.
It ended up terribly bad.
Erk wrote:But if it was about economics and the IMF, why shell the Donbass infrastructure to bits, and bomb the brand new Donetsk airport to rubble? I don't think it was as simple as that. I think Kiev were encouraged to destroy things by outsiders, because it doesn't make sense otherwise. All they had to do was reach a political settlement with Donbass before the fighting broke out last year, and everything would be intact and productive still. The destruction campaign is deliberate.Regular wrote:Let us remember who pushed Ukraine to start ATO.
It was IMF and their proposal - get Your land back or else You won't get any money.
It ended up terribly bad.
Regular wrote:Let us remember who pushed Ukraine to start ATO.
It was IMF and their proposal - get Your land back or else You won't get any money.
It ended up terribly bad.
I can't say anything good about separatist gov too much these days. They talk too much shit like their Ukr colleagues. I can hardly relate to some of their ideas.
Seps still have moral high-ground in my eyes unlike Ukrainian armed forces and their idiotic and careless approach towards civilians, infrastructure and their own personnel. I can only hope that won't change.
I am talking about beggining of so called ATO where seps had few hundred men in total.Erk wrote:But if it was about economics and the IMF, why shell the Donbass infrastructure to bits, and bomb the brand new Donetsk airport to rubble? I don't think it was as simple as that. I think Kiev were encouraged to destroy things by outsiders, because it doesn't make sense otherwise. All they had to do was reach a political settlement with Donbass before the fighting broke out last year, and everything would be intact and productive still. The destruction campaign is deliberate.Regular wrote:Let us remember who pushed Ukraine to start ATO.
It was IMF and their proposal - get Your land back or else You won't get any money.
It ended up terribly bad.
Erk wrote:But if it was about economics and the IMF, why shell the Donbass infrastructure to bits, and bomb the brand new Donetsk airport to rubble? I don't think it was as simple as that. I think Kiev were encouraged to destroy things by outsiders, because it doesn't make sense otherwise. All they had to do was reach a political settlement with Donbass before the fighting broke out last year, and everything would be intact and productive still. The destruction campaign is deliberate.Regular wrote:Let us remember who pushed Ukraine to start ATO.
It was IMF and their proposal - get Your land back or else You won't get any money.
It ended up terribly bad.
etaepsilonk wrote:...
You know, this ukraine conflict has been brewing up for quite a long time and I personally don't claim to understand all the peculiarities. As a result, I also find the expert commentaries from the people who never even heard of the country before it hit the news quite amusing (not aimed at anyone particular).
...
But those were unarmed civilians facing a conscript army once ideological driven units like NG and volunteer battalions got involved peace protesters started to get killed.Regular wrote:I am talking about beggining of so called ATO where seps had few hundred men in total.
As Kotemore mentioned, conflict escalated. Don't forgrt that Ukrainian soldiers were refusing to engage separatists and shot their ammo into the air.
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