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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:51 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I dont think so. TR1 made a good point on keypub. He pretty much said that what they want is still there but initial orders will be low to work out kinks, and to stretch the program out to save money in long run. So they will get their PAK FA's but initial batch is low, which is evident by the words borisov said. Also, according to both him and berkut, Su-35 had to go back to knaapo due to issues of early batches for upgrades, so same can be even more problematic for a brand new fighter of a whole different class than before.
    Its just like the opposite of the US with their F-35. As you say, get it fully sorted with low but enough airframes to test and keep potential partners like India onside, then make lots. Bit like it used to be done before designers got seduced by computers which can be reprogrammed in a flash.

    Quite how many are needed is a very interesting question. With the limited Russian budget and a defensive posture, just what is the role of an aircraft like this? Perhaps its main value is as a threat, forcing aggressors to spend money countering it, rather than its actual military role. Over the next few years more and more long range munitions are going to be deployed and will become a major threat.

    By moving the volume production of this 'top of the range' fighter out a few years the RuAF will find out how the threat is evolving before they spend big money whilst keeping it a potential thorn in the wallet of the USAF. It seems to me to be a very sensible move.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:46 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Its just like the opposite of the US with their F-35. As you say, get it fully sorted with low but enough airframes to test and keep potential partners like India onside, then make lots. Bit like it used to be done before designers got seduced by computers which can be reprogrammed in a flash.

    Exactly....without trying to understate any potential problems, it's the right strategy IMO.

    As for future numbers, it should be the the Su-27 equivalent for the coming decades


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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:16 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I dont think so. TR1 made a good point on keypub. He pretty much said that what they want is still there but initial orders will be low to work out kinks, and to stretch the program out to save money in long run. So they will get their PAK FA's but initial batch is low, which is evident by the words borisov said. Also, according to both him and berkut, Su-35 had to go back to knaapo due to issues of early batches for upgrades, so same can be even more problematic for a brand new fighter of a whole different class than before.
    Its just like the opposite of the US with their F-35. As you say, get it fully sorted with low but enough airframes to test and keep potential partners like India onside, then make lots. Bit like it used to be done before designers got seduced by computers which can be reprogrammed in a flash.

    Quite how many are needed is a very interesting question. With the limited Russian budget and a defensive posture, just what is the role of an aircraft like this? Perhaps its main value is as a threat, forcing aggressors to spend money countering it, rather than its actual military role. Over the next few years more and more long range munitions are going to be deployed and will become a major threat.

    By moving the volume production of this 'top of the range' fighter out a few years the RuAF will find out how the threat is evolving before they spend big money whilst keeping it a potential thorn in the wallet of the USAF. It seems to me to be a very sensible move.

    It's primarily an air-superiority fighter albeit fully multi-role too.

    So it can be used for the strike role, penetrating enemy air-defences for precision strikes, SEAD and so on.

    However what it's really for - is for fighting other 5th-gen fighters.

    Russia won't need to do that over its own airspace. However in any future conflict with NATO or other adversaries it can come across F-22s or F-35s in enemy airspace; and will need to counter them in order to provide air superiority over the skies of its own advancing ground forces. That's what the PAK-FA is really for.

    Of course - the real bet is on a NATO-Russia war not happening at all.
    And in order for that to be ensured, Russia must be able to provide a strong deterant, both nuclear and conventional; for all the different types of conflict that could break out.
    So next-gen weapons such as the PAK-FA must be acquired, both as a deterant against any sort of conventional conflict no matter how limited, and for the threat factor as you say - in order to attempt to bankrupt the enemy by encouraging him to spend more on the ridiculously expensive F-35 R&D and procurement program pirat pirat
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I dont think so. TR1 made a good point on keypub. He pretty much said that what they want is still there but initial orders will be low to work out kinks, and to stretch the program out to save money in long run. So they will get their PAK FA's but initial batch is low, which is evident by the words borisov said. Also, according to both him and berkut, Su-35 had to go back to knaapo due to issues of early batches for upgrades, so same can be even more problematic for a brand new fighter of a whole different class than before.
    Its just like the opposite of the US with their F-35. As you say, get it fully sorted with low but enough airframes to test and keep potential partners like India onside, then make lots. Bit like it used to be done before designers got seduced by computers which can be reprogrammed in a flash.

    Quite how many are needed is a very interesting question. With the limited Russian budget and a defensive posture, just what is the role of an aircraft like this? Perhaps its main value is as a threat, forcing aggressors to spend money countering it, rather than its actual military role. Over the next few years more and more long range munitions are going to be deployed and will become a major threat.

    By moving the volume production of this 'top of the range' fighter out a few years the RuAF will find out how the threat is evolving before they spend big money whilst keeping it a potential thorn in the wallet of the USAF. It seems to me to be a very sensible move.

    It's primarily an air-superiority fighter albeit fully multi-role too.

    So it can be used for the strike role, penetrating enemy air-defences for precision strikes, SEAD and so on.

    However what it's really for - is for fighting other 5th-gen fighters.

    Russia won't need to do that over its own airspace. However in any future conflict with NATO or other adversaries it can come across F-22s or F-35s in enemy airspace; and will need to counter them in order to provide air superiority over the skies of its own advancing ground forces. That's what the PAK-FA is really for.

    Of course - the real bet is on a NATO-Russia war not happening at all.
    And in order for that to be ensured, Russia must be able to provide a strong deterant, both nuclear and conventional; for all the different types of conflict that could break out.
    So next-gen weapons such as the PAK-FA must be acquired, both as a deterant against any sort of conventional conflict no matter how limited, and for the threat factor as you say - in order to attempt to bankrupt the enemy by encouraging him to spend more on the ridiculously expensive F-35 R&D and procurement program pirat pirat
    You hit the nail with that one. I am sure that there is a section of a ministry in Moscow who's sole function is to 'do a reverse Ronald Regan' to supply sufficient data to the West on new advanced weapons to allow/force the US in particular MIC to clamour for more money to match the threat so that in the end they run out of money. The typical judo move of adding momentum to an opponents existing move.

    If this is correct and by their actions they are subtlety adding requirements, like the need for new weapons to defeat new SAMs, to the F-35 program, they are going to suck huge sums of money from air forces all round the world into it that could well be better used elsewhere. Even on such simple things as conformal tanks for the US's F-16s that could dramatically improve their time on station and reduce tanker needs as well, but there is no money left!
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    Post  chicken Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I dont think so. TR1 made a good point on keypub. He pretty much said that what they want is still there but initial orders will be low to work out kinks, and to stretch the program out to save money in long run. So they will get their PAK FA's but initial batch is low, which is evident by the words borisov said. Also, according to both him and berkut, Su-35 had to go back to knaapo due to issues of early batches for upgrades, so same can be even more problematic for a brand new fighter of a whole different class than before.

    What other upgrades did Su-35 get? All I know is the L-Band wing radar for IFF.
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    Post  Guest Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:50 am

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/vooruzhenie_i_voennaya_tekhnika/sokrashchaetsya_pervaya_zakupka_partii_istrebiteley_pyatogo_pokoleniya_t_50/
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    Post  Vann7 Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:00 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    BTW the problem is both South Africa, and Brazil have ordered Gripen's, and both are in BRICS so...... unshaven


    This should tell you a hint.. about how Mediocre is Russia Government in sales and advertising
    their products. Russia even Offered brazil their Pak-FA with the transfer of technology and they
    have not shown much interest.  As i told before.. Russia is losing lots and lots of sales , not
    because their hardware is inferior.. but because they don't know a shit of how to advertise
    their technology. and is not only Brazil and South Africa..  Russia also lost a big sale , from India
    that got a big order or Apache Hellicopters instead of Ka-52's or MI-28NE's.

    Also One of the major problems facing Russia on military hardware sales is their Incompetence in delivering on time their orders..  Syria ordered A dozen of Mig-29 in 2008 way before any war happened and still today 2015 none have been delivered.  Then you have argelia that Bough many Mig-29 planes from Russia...and later they return them.. because their quality and conditions were really bad.. as if they were second hand used planes.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20121204/177916582.html

    You cannot become successful in Sales in any Business in the civilized world ,with so much Mediocre quality controls and incompetence. Many heads needs to Role..in Russia defense industry.. and it will be even nicer if Putin could be included too.. Because stupid things like that.. sending Old/poor quality equipment to a nation that buys brand new planes.. should
    be paid with Life Sentences in Jail. for all the people involved.. for such a Fraud.

    If Russia Government had any competence in business , if they don't know how to be competitive ,they need to hire people that do knows how to do it.. , from non NATO nations ,to manage their business . Is ridiculous , that Russia lose so much money ,because of management incompetence.

    Here is another failure..

    India prefers USA's Apache to Russia's 'Night Hunter'  



    Russia lost another arms tender in India. In the beginning of 2011, Russia failed to win the ten-billion-dollar tender for the delivery of 126 all-purpose fighter jets for Indian Air Force. The Russian MiG-35 lost the tender to Eurofighter and Rafale.
    This time, Russia lost the tender for the delivery of 22 attack helicopters. The Mi-28H "Night Hunter" lost to USA's Apache AH-64D Longbow.
    This is a very embarrassing defeat for Russia, taking into consideration the fact that India was planning to considerably increase the purchase of attack helicopters.

    Nikolai Novichkov, editor-in-chief of ARMS-TASS news agency:
    " I would not say that the Mi-28H is inferior to the Amercan competitor. It seems that the reason is different. [/b] The Indians have been concerned about the way Russia executes the obligations connected with repairs and servicing of the delivered hardware. We also delay the execution of previously concluded contracts." [/b]


    If you mix delays ,with poor service ,with poor quality delivered hardware ,sold as "new"
    and on top of Russia Government not paying attention of how important is image in sales.
    ie.. that things not only need to perform good..they also needs to look good.. then it leads to
    a recipe for disaster. This is why their SUkhois Su-30 sold so poorly anywhere in the world...
    and when India was buying Russian planes.. they wanted Israeli or European avionics.  All those things are really bad for Business image..

    Russia needs to design military hardware for exports with a completely different perspective,
    that they use for their military hardware..

    Look at the Presentation of Gripen.. how is being presented.



    The planes also looks new.and more modern.. than Su-35..
    even though i know ,the sukhoi will destroy the gripen day and night..and that the
    above video is just PROPAGANDA.. is not less true that the presentation is far better
    and it is NOT a coincidence that brazil and south Africa pick the Gripen over a SU-35.
    They are not expecting to fight NATO or Fight Russia any time soon.. so they are happy with a modern plane that could do the job and that is modern and can lift the morale of their airforce.

    In the other hand Russia airframe of their SU-35 ,looks nearly the same way their older sukhois.. and even though for the first time have digital panels does not look as advanced as the Gripen their electronics and avionics and digital screens.

    In real war ,performance is what matters.. But in real Business sales.. Presentation is the most important thing many times. If you don't believe it.. look no further than Apple how their superior presentation and sexier looking hardware have eclipsed the competition.. even though their Laptops and smartphones are crap. Inferior to alternatives that exist in the market.

    here is the poor presentation of Su-35 promotional video..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMuvbNbz18

    people should not Underestimate Presentation and propaganda in sales.. most of the times
    it makes the difference in a sale being made or not ..when you have undecided buyers ,about what to do.. the presentation seals the deal and do the final push.. and Russia is being literary destroyed in sales in the west with their military hardware ,for not knowing how to advertise their hardware.

    Brazil buys European everything.. and even argentina their first choice was for
    Gripen planes.. lol1

    Alma Antei is not as Bad as Sukhoi and Mig in presentation.. they have done much better job
    in advertising and is not a surprise that is the most successful defense company in Russia. And their Tank industry is not doing bad either in promotion ,comparing their T-72 with an eagle was quite good.. but their combat planes and hellicopters industry ,their presentation and service  is a real disaster ,at the level of Ukraine defense industry when it comes to image and the horror stories of buying military hardware from Russia. and is no wonder Most people in the west prefer European tanks or planes.



    2SPOOKY4U
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:38 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    BTW the problem is both South Africa, and Brazil have ordered Gripen's, and both are in BRICS so...... unshaven


    This should tell you a hint.. about how Mediocre is Russia Government in sales and advertising
    their products. Russia even Offered brazil their Pak-FA with the transfer of technology and they
    have not shown much interest.  As i told before.. Russia is losing lots and lots of sales , not
    because their hardware is inferior.. but because they don't know a shit of how to advertise
    their technology. and is not only Brazil and South Africa..  Russia also lost a big sale , from India
    that got a big order or Apache Hellicopters instead of Ka-52's or MI-28NE's.

    Also One of the major problems facing Russia on military hardware sales is their Incompetence in delivering on time their orders..  Syria ordered A dozen of Mig-29 in 2008 way before any war happened and still today 2015 none have been delivered.  Then you have argelia that Bough many Mig-29 planes from Russia...and later they return them.. because their quality and conditions were really bad.. as if they were second hand used planes.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20121204/177916582.html

    You cannot become successful in Sales in any Business in the civilized world ,with so much Mediocre quality controls and incompetence. Many heads needs to Role..in Russia defense industry.. and it will be even nicer if Putin could be included too.. Because stupid things like that.. sending Old/poor quality equipment to a nation that buys brand new planes.. should
    be paid with Life Sentences in Jail. for all the people involved.. for such a Fraud.

    If Russia Government had any competence in business , if they don't know how to be competitive ,they need to hire people that do knows how to do it.. , from non NATO nations ,to manage their business . Is ridiculous , that Russia lose so much money ,because of management incompetence.

    Here is another failure..

    India prefers USA's Apache to Russia's 'Night Hunter'  



    Russia lost another arms tender in India. In the beginning of 2011, Russia failed to win the ten-billion-dollar tender for the delivery of 126 all-purpose fighter jets for Indian Air Force. The Russian MiG-35 lost the tender to Eurofighter and Rafale.
    This time, Russia lost the tender for the delivery of 22 attack helicopters. The Mi-28H "Night Hunter" lost to USA's Apache AH-64D Longbow.
    This is a very embarrassing defeat for Russia, taking into consideration the fact that India was planning to considerably increase the purchase of attack helicopters.

    Nikolai Novichkov, editor-in-chief of ARMS-TASS news agency:
    " I would not say that the Mi-28H is inferior to the Amercan competitor. It seems that the reason is different. [/b] The Indians have been concerned about the way Russia executes the obligations connected with repairs and servicing of the delivered hardware. We also delay the execution of previously concluded contracts." [/b]


    If you mix delays ,with poor service ,with poor quality delivered hardware ,sold as "new"
    and on top of Russia Government not paying attention of how important is image in sales.
    ie.. that things not only need to perform good..they also needs to look good.. then it leads to
    a recipe for disaster. This is why their SUkhois Su-30 sold so poorly anywhere in the world...
    and when India was buying Russian planes.. they wanted Israeli or European avionics.  All those things are really bad for Business image..

    Russia needs to design military hardware for exports with a completely different perspective,
    that they use for their military hardware..

    Look at the Presentation of Gripen.. how is being presented.


    The planes also looks new.and more modern.. than Su-35..
    even though i know ,the sukhoi will destroy the gripen day and night..and that the
    above video is just PROPAGANDA.. is not less true that the presentation is far better
    and it is NOT a coincidence that brazil and south Africa pick the Gripen over a SU-35.
    They are not expecting to fight NATO or Fight Russia any time soon.. so they are happy with a modern plane that could do the job and that is modern and can lift the morale of their airforce.

    In the other hand Russia airframe of their SU-35 ,looks nearly the same way their older sukhois.. and even though for the first time have digital panels does not look as advanced as the Gripen their electronics and avionics and digital screens.

    In real war ,performance is what matters.. But in real Business sales.. Presentation is the most important thing many times. If you don't believe it.. look no further than Apple how their superior presentation and sexier looking hardware have eclipsed the competition.. even though their Laptops and smartphones are crap. Inferior to alternatives that exist in the market.

    here is the poor presentation of Su-35 promotional video..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMuvbNbz18

    people should not Underestimate Presentation and propaganda in sales.. most of the times
    it makes the difference in a sale being made or not ..when you have undecided buyers ,about what to do.. the presentation seals the deal and do the final push.. and Russia is being literary destroyed in sales in the west with their military hardware ,for not knowing how to advertise their hardware.

    Brazil buys European everything.. and even argentina their first choice was for
    Gripen planes.. lol1

    Alma Antei is not as Bad as Sukhoi and Mig in presentation.. they have done much better job
    in advertising and is not a surprise that is the most successful defense company in Russia. And their Tank industry is not doing bad either in promotion ,comparing their T-72 with an eagle was quite good.. but their combat planes and hellicopters industry ,their presentation and service  is a real disaster ,at the level of Ukraine defense industry when it comes to image and the horror stories of buying military hardware from Russia. and is no wonder Most people in the west prefer European tanks or planes.  





    You have to remember politics, Those countries that buy European buy it for the brownie points.

    They will never buy Russian because it is RUSSIAN.

    I agree with India's purchase of the Apache, the Mi-28N would have taken too long. They were not offered Ka-52s.

    However, the Chinook deal is actually concerning.


    You do realize the buyers never actually base their decision on advertising?

    They go through and look at the specs.

    Algeria returned the Migs and got Sukhois.


    Again, no serious buyer looks at promo vids. They get direct pdf files and presentations from the companies.

    Russian companies don't need fancy CGI, the specs of their products are world leading.

    Also, what deals are we losing? We still have the Indian MKI deal, the FGFA, the T-90, the MTA, etc.

    We have plenty of sales, and will increase in the future now that Russia deems that it is ok to export some products.



    You are just a Western PsyOps operative.
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    Post  Guest Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:00 am

    2SPOOKY4U wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    BTW the problem is both South Africa, and Brazil have ordered Gripen's, and both are in BRICS so...... unshaven


    This should tell you a hint.. about how Mediocre is Russia Government in sales and advertising
    their products. Russia even Offered brazil their Pak-FA with the transfer of technology and they
    have not shown much interest.  As i told before.. Russia is losing lots and lots of sales , not
    because their hardware is inferior.. but because they don't know a shit of how to advertise
    their technology. and is not only Brazil and South Africa..  Russia also lost a big sale , from India
    that got a big order or Apache Hellicopters instead of Ka-52's or MI-28NE's.

    Also One of the major problems facing Russia on military hardware sales is their Incompetence in delivering on time their orders..  Syria ordered A dozen of Mig-29 in 2008 way before any war happened and still today 2015 none have been delivered.  Then you have argelia that Bough many Mig-29 planes from Russia...and later they return them.. because their quality and conditions were really bad.. as if they were second hand used planes.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20121204/177916582.html

    You cannot become successful in Sales in any Business in the civilized world ,with so much Mediocre quality controls and incompetence. Many heads needs to Role..in Russia defense industry.. and it will be even nicer if Putin could be included too.. Because stupid things like that.. sending Old/poor quality equipment to a nation that buys brand new planes.. should
    be paid with Life Sentences in Jail. for all the people involved.. for such a Fraud.

    If Russia Government had any competence in business , if they don't know how to be competitive ,they need to hire people that do knows how to do it.. , from non NATO nations ,to manage their business . Is ridiculous , that Russia lose so much money ,because of management incompetence.

    Here is another failure..

    India prefers USA's Apache to Russia's 'Night Hunter'  



    Russia lost another arms tender in India. In the beginning of 2011, Russia failed to win the ten-billion-dollar tender for the delivery of 126 all-purpose fighter jets for Indian Air Force. The Russian MiG-35 lost the tender to Eurofighter and Rafale.
    This time, Russia lost the tender for the delivery of 22 attack helicopters. The Mi-28H "Night Hunter" lost to USA's Apache AH-64D Longbow.
    This is a very embarrassing defeat for Russia, taking into consideration the fact that India was planning to considerably increase the purchase of attack helicopters.

    Nikolai Novichkov, editor-in-chief of ARMS-TASS news agency:
    " I would not say that the Mi-28H is inferior to the Amercan competitor. It seems that the reason is different. [/b] The Indians have been concerned about the way Russia executes the obligations connected with repairs and servicing of the delivered hardware. We also delay the execution of previously concluded contracts." [/b]


    If you mix delays ,with poor service ,with poor quality delivered hardware ,sold as "new"
    and on top of Russia Government not paying attention of how important is image in sales.
    ie.. that things not only need to perform good..they also needs to look good.. then it leads to
    a recipe for disaster. This is why their SUkhois Su-30 sold so poorly anywhere in the world...
    and when India was buying Russian planes.. they wanted Israeli or European avionics.  All those things are really bad for Business image..

    Russia needs to design military hardware for exports with a completely different perspective,
    that they use for their military hardware..

    Look at the Presentation of Gripen.. how is being presented.


    The planes also looks new.and more modern.. than Su-35..
    even though i know ,the sukhoi will destroy the gripen day and night..and that the
    above video is just PROPAGANDA.. is not less true that the presentation is far better
    and it is NOT a coincidence that brazil and south Africa pick the Gripen over a SU-35.
    They are not expecting to fight NATO or Fight Russia any time soon.. so they are happy with a modern plane that could do the job and that is modern and can lift the morale of their airforce.

    In the other hand Russia airframe of their SU-35 ,looks nearly the same way their older sukhois.. and even though for the first time have digital panels does not look as advanced as the Gripen their electronics and avionics and digital screens.

    In real war ,performance is what matters.. But in real Business sales.. Presentation is the most important thing many times. If you don't believe it.. look no further than Apple how their superior presentation and sexier looking hardware have eclipsed the competition.. even though their Laptops and smartphones are crap. Inferior to alternatives that exist in the market.

    here is the poor presentation of Su-35 promotional video..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMuvbNbz18

    people should not Underestimate Presentation and propaganda in sales.. most of the times
    it makes the difference in a sale being made or not ..when you have undecided buyers ,about what to do.. the presentation seals the deal and do the final push.. and Russia is being literary destroyed in sales in the west with their military hardware ,for not knowing how to advertise their hardware.

    Brazil buys European everything.. and even argentina their first choice was for
    Gripen planes.. lol1

    Alma Antei is not as Bad as Sukhoi and Mig in presentation.. they have done much better job
    in advertising and is not a surprise that is the most successful defense company in Russia. And their Tank industry is not doing bad either in promotion ,comparing their T-72 with an eagle was quite good.. but their combat planes and hellicopters industry ,their presentation and service  is a real disaster ,at the level of Ukraine defense industry when it comes to image and the horror stories of buying military hardware from Russia. and is no wonder Most people in the west prefer European tanks or planes.  





    You have to remember politics, Those countries that buy European buy it for the brownie points.

    They will never buy Russian because it is RUSSIAN.

    I agree with India's purchase of the Apache, the Mi-28N would have taken too long. They were not offered Ka-52s.

    However, the Chinook deal is actually concerning.


    You do realize the buyers never actually base their decision on advertising?

    They go through and look at the specs.

    Algeria returned the Migs and got Sukhois.


    Again, no serious buyer looks at promo vids. They get direct pdf files and presentations from the companies.

    Russian companies don't need fancy CGI, the specs of their products are world leading.

    Also, what deals are we losing? We still have the Indian MKI deal, the FGFA, the T-90, the MTA, etc.

    We have plenty of sales, and will increase in the future now that Russia deems that it is ok to export some products.



    You are just a Western PsyOps operative.
    Nicely written Spooky. However, instead of looking at pamphlets and listening to presentations, most buyers are shown the products first hand. This is prevalent throughout the aviation (civil too) industry and global arms sales. Nothing is a better advertisement than the equipment itself and in an environment where the customer decides the financial outlook of the company, it is best to put your best foot forward.

    I would like to point out that there are countries that still will buy Russian arms despite their geopolitical stance. Namely Greece with the S-300s and now supposedly Saudi Arabia who will be giving a huge boost to the Russia and the arms industry.

    The deal between Boeing Helicopters and India reeks of corruption (as with most Indian arms procurement competitions really). The fact that the Indians don't make any effort to hide their favorite (and which coincidentally wins the competition later) speaks volumes about their professionalism. Although the FGFA is a nice money earner, here is betting that the Indians will get the money for a few more FGFA's as soon as they sell the technical specifications to the highest bidder. Overall, I would like to have Russia to take the same approach to the PAK-FA as the US has taken to the F-22.
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    Post  Book. Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:16 pm

    Brasil buy for cost. low perform plane

    2x engine cost lot. No money

    36 gripen + tot. the true scam !   Suspect

    Russia only tot srs buyer
    100 Su 35 ok. 100 Pakfa ok


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    Post  Guest Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:51 pm

    Book. wrote:Brasil buy for cost. low perform plane

    2x engine cost lot. No money

    36 gripen + tot. the true scam !   Suspect

    Russia only tot srs buyer
    100 Su 35 ok. 100 Pakfa ok


    I swore I heard that the VVS wanted to procure around 200 PAK-FAs after 2020 as many older airframes will need to be retired by then.

    Brazil is the wealthiest nation in Latin America, if they were really interested in increasing their military's capabilities they could have easily coughed up some money for some Su-35s or some F-18E/Fs or even look toward the future and order some PAK-FAs or some F-35s.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:12 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Book. wrote:Brasil buy for cost. low perform plane

    2x engine cost lot. No money

    36 gripen + tot. the true scam !   Suspect

    Russia only tot srs buyer
    100 Su 35 ok. 100 Pakfa ok


    I swore I heard that the VVS wanted to procure around 200 PAK-FAs after 2020 as many older airframes will need to be retired by then.

    Brazil is the wealthiest nation in Latin America, if they were really interested in increasing their military's capabilities they could have easily coughed up some money for some Su-35s or some F-18E/Fs or even look toward the future and order some PAK-FAs or some F-35s.

    Naturally.

    After 2020 PAK-FA will be what Su-30/35 are today: standard off the shelf product russia
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:24 pm

    Vann, seriously, STFU.

    Look at total sales of Grippen vs the Su-30's, and it proves you wrong instantly. Brazil went with Gripen for their own reasons. Last I checked, Brazil doesnt and hasn't operated a Russian aircraft, not fixed wing at least and that isnt a helicopter. Much like how Brazil went with Mi-35M's instead of Apache's.

    Indian military is corrupt, there is no doubt about it, much like MOST countries militaries in procurement. Look at Rafale debacle, is just another example. India is paying ridiculous amount of money for sub par helicopters and rafale's.

    As for the spare parts issue, Russia resolved it by giving India rights to manufacturing various components. So current failures, especially in engines, is pretty much singled out to just india, so it gives one many obvious info that it was poor Indian maintenance and parts. But media plays it up that it is Russia's fault, because the jet is Russian designed. Look at China and their Su-30's, no problems. Russia as well. Same with Algeria and Vietnam.

    Spare parts issue was entirely due to trying to sign contracts later on. Russia resolved this by making it pretty much clear that spare parts deals must be signed when initial purchases are made.
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:25 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Vann, seriously, STFU.

    Look at total sales of Grippen vs the Su-30's, and it proves you wrong instantly.  Brazil went with Gripen for their own reasons.  Last I checked, Brazil doesnt and hasn't operated a Russian aircraft, not fixed wing at least and that isnt a helicopter.  Much like how Brazil went with Mi-35M's instead of Apache's.

    Indian military is corrupt, there is no doubt about it, much like MOST countries militaries in procurement.  Look at Rafale debacle, is just another example.  India is paying ridiculous amount of money for sub par helicopters and rafale's.

    As for the spare parts issue, Russia resolved it by giving India rights to manufacturing various components.  So current failures, especially in engines, is pretty much singled out to just india, so it gives one many obvious info that it was poor Indian maintenance and parts.  But media plays it up that it is Russia's fault, because the jet is Russian designed.  Look at China and their Su-30's, no problems.  Russia as well.  Same with Algeria and Vietnam.

    Spare parts issue was entirely due to trying to sign contracts later on.  Russia resolved this by making it pretty much clear that spare parts deals must be signed when initial purchases are made.

    I thought the Rafale deal went kaput?

    Indians will get what they deserve with the Chinook deal though.
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    Post  max steel Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:53 pm

    Reliance Indian company will make nuclear subs with the helps of russian company indigenously and now Airbus is getting all geared up with an indian company Mahindra to jointly produce helicopters and they will bid for future tenders .
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:13 am

    max steel wrote:Reliance Indian company will make nuclear subs with the helps of russian company indigenously and now Airbus is getting all geared up with an indian company Mahindra to jointly produce helicopters and they will bid for future tenders .

    That is what i was expecting, eventually Airbus' attempt in India. Although, I was hoping on Mil as India uses a ton of their Mi-8's and other helicopters, oh well. Maybe JV in future.
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    Post  jhelb Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:38 pm

    PAK FA will have a max speed of more than Mach 2


    Trials of Russia's 5th-generation fighter jet 'in full swing' - Air Force commander

    ASHULUK, Astrakhan region. May 28 (Interfax-AVN) - Russia's T-50 fifth-generation fighter jet will outperform similar U.S. airplanes on all parameters, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Viktor Bondarev told reporters on Thursday.

    "It will be in no way worse than similar American planes such as F-22 and F-35. Rather, it will outperform them in almost all parameters," he said.

    Trials of the new Russian fighter jet are "in full swing" today, Bondarev said.

    "The airplane is demonstrating excellent performance. It has an excellent system of weapons against both land and air [targets]. The plane is practically invisible to radar," the commander said.

    Cutting-edge technologies were used to design this aircraft, he said.

    "The features given to it by its designers allow it to outperform all similar planes that already exist or will soon appear abroad," Bondarev said.

    The new fighter jet has a maximum speed of more than Mach 2, the commander said.

    "But it is not very important today. What counts most is its invisibility to radar, weapons and maneuverability," the commander said.

    http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=595193
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    Post  Kyo Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:14 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    BTW the problem is both South Africa, and Brazil have ordered Gripen's, and both are in BRICS so...... unshaven


    This should tell you a hint.. about how Mediocre is Russia Government in sales and advertising
    their products. Russia even Offered brazil their Pak-FA with the transfer of technology and they
    have not shown much interest.  As i told before.. Russia is losing lots and lots of sales , not
    because their hardware is inferior.. but because they don't know a shit of how to advertise
    their technology. and is not only Brazil and South Africa..  Russia also lost a big sale , from India
    that got a big order or Apache Hellicopters instead of Ka-52's or MI-28NE's.

    Also One of the major problems facing Russia on military hardware sales is their Incompetence in delivering on time their orders..  Syria ordered A dozen of Mig-29 in 2008 way before any war happened and still today 2015 none have been delivered.  Then you have argelia that Bough many Mig-29 planes from Russia...and later they return them.. because their quality and conditions were really bad.. as if they were second hand used planes.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20121204/177916582.html

    You cannot become successful in Sales in any Business in the civilized world ,with so much Mediocre quality controls and incompetence. Many heads needs to Role..in Russia defense industry.. and it will be even nicer if Putin could be included too.. Because stupid things like that.. sending Old/poor quality equipment to a nation that buys brand new planes.. should
    be paid with Life Sentences in Jail. for all the people involved.. for such a Fraud.

    If Russia Government had any competence in business , if they don't know how to be competitive ,they need to hire people that do knows how to do it.. , from non NATO nations ,to manage their business . Is ridiculous , that Russia lose so much money ,because of management incompetence.

    Here is another failure..

    India prefers USA's Apache to Russia's 'Night Hunter'  



    Russia lost another arms tender in India. In the beginning of 2011, Russia failed to win the ten-billion-dollar tender for the delivery of 126 all-purpose fighter jets for Indian Air Force. The Russian MiG-35 lost the tender to Eurofighter and Rafale.
    This time, Russia lost the tender for the delivery of 22 attack helicopters. The Mi-28H "Night Hunter" lost to USA's Apache AH-64D Longbow.
    This is a very embarrassing defeat for Russia, taking into consideration the fact that India was planning to considerably increase the purchase of attack helicopters.

    Nikolai Novichkov, editor-in-chief of ARMS-TASS news agency:
    " I would not say that the Mi-28H is inferior to the Amercan competitor. It seems that the reason is different. [/b] The Indians have been concerned about the way Russia executes the obligations connected with repairs and servicing of the delivered hardware. We also delay the execution of previously concluded contracts." [/b]


    If you mix delays ,with poor service ,with poor quality delivered hardware ,sold as "new"
    and on top of Russia Government not paying attention of how important is image in sales.
    ie.. that things not only need to perform good..they also needs to look good.. then it leads to
    a recipe for disaster. This is why their SUkhois Su-30 sold so poorly anywhere in the world...
    and when India was buying Russian planes.. they wanted Israeli or European avionics.  All those things are really bad for Business image..

    Russia needs to design military hardware for exports with a completely different perspective,
    that they use for their military hardware..

    Look at the Presentation of Gripen.. how is being presented.



    The planes also looks new.and more modern.. than Su-35..
    even though i know ,the sukhoi will destroy the gripen day and night..and that the
    above video is just PROPAGANDA.. is not less true that the presentation is far better
    and it is NOT a coincidence that brazil and south Africa pick the Gripen over a SU-35.
    They are not expecting to fight NATO or Fight Russia any time soon.. so they are happy with a modern plane that could do the job and that is modern and can lift the morale of their airforce.

    In the other hand Russia airframe of their SU-35 ,looks nearly the same way their older sukhois.. and even though for the first time have digital panels does not look as advanced as the Gripen their electronics and avionics and digital screens.

    In real war ,performance is what matters.. But in real Business sales.. Presentation is the most important thing many times. If you don't believe it.. look no further than Apple how their superior presentation and sexier looking hardware have eclipsed the competition.. even though their Laptops and smartphones are crap. Inferior to alternatives that exist in the market.

    here is the poor presentation of Su-35 promotional video..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMuvbNbz18

    people should not Underestimate Presentation and propaganda in sales.. most of the times
    it makes the difference in a sale being made or not ..when you have undecided buyers ,about what to do.. the presentation seals the deal and do the final push.. and Russia is being literary destroyed in sales in the west with their military hardware ,for not knowing how to advertise their hardware.

    Brazil buys European everything.. and even argentina their first choice was for
    Gripen planes.. lol1

    Alma Antei is not as Bad as Sukhoi and Mig in presentation.. they have done much better job
    in advertising and is not a surprise that is the most successful defense company in Russia. And their Tank industry is not doing bad either in promotion ,comparing their T-72 with an eagle was quite good.. but their combat planes and hellicopters industry ,their presentation and service  is a real disaster ,at the level of Ukraine defense industry when it comes to image and the horror stories of buying military hardware from Russia. and is no wonder Most people in the west prefer European tanks or planes.

    According to Brazilian daily Folha de São Paulo, Federal prosecutors opened on Thursday, April 9th 2015, an inquiry into the purchase of 36 Swedish fighters , model Gripen NG by the Brazilian government. This inquiry is still going on and there are bribery suspicions.
    The contract , signed October 2014, was closed for $ 5.4 billion . The value is $ 900 million in excess than in the current proposal of the manufacturer made in 2013.
    Anyway, the Su-35 was turned down by notorious 5th column, bigwig and russophobe Nelson Jobim, then Brazil's Minister of Defense, in favour of western competitors Rafale, F-18 and Gripen. It was a political move and had nothing to do with marketing.

    http://www.aereo.jor.br/2011/01/25/nelson-jobim-descarta-entrada-da-russia-na-licitacao-dos-cacas/

    Jobim's statement in 2011 wrote:“You don't have this [wrt Russia entering]. The only ones who are disputing are the three: the Americans with Boeing, the Swedish Saab and France's Dassault. The Russians were disqualified way back, at the beginning of the process”
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    Post  Cyrus the great Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:41 am


    I'm really excited about the PAK FA, and based on what I've read from ausairpower and others, the PAK FA won't be as stealthy as the F-35 but it will be able to defeat it by intelligently incorporating the strengths of stealth and maneuverability. I wonder exactly just how far out the PAK FA will be able to detect the F-35.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:51 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I'm really excited about the PAK FA, and based on what I've read from ausairpower and others, the PAK FA won't be as stealthy as the F-35 but it will be able to defeat it by intelligently incorporating the strengths of stealth and maneuverability. I wonder exactly just how far out the PAK FA will be able to detect the F-35.  

    Well, major difference between aesa vs pesa radar has to do with how the information is communicated between devices from the antenna, and Irbis E can detect something stealthy by 90km, I would assume PAK FA would detect it at same range as the N036 is an AESA variant of Irbis E, using similar amounts of power.
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    Post  par far Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:06 pm

    Fighter jet purchases for the most part are based on politics(I don't why) but I do agree that Russia can do a better job of advertising their weapons.
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    Post  Guest Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:47 pm

    par far wrote:Fighter jet purchases for the most part are based on politics(I don't why) but I do agree that Russia can do a better job of advertising their weapons.
    For the last time, advertising does very little to get sales on the international market. If you want to sell your weapons system, you enter it into a competition and the buyer selects the one that suits their needs the most through comparing different systems. Of course, there is often corruption on all sides, but that is how it works in this industry. You need to promote your system a little (Russian Government and the Russian arms industry do this as much as the US and both do it just fine) but nowhere as much as in other industries like the car market.

    Nearly all complex weapons systems are purchased on the basis on geopolitics. There are a variety of reasons for that including maintenance and future upgrades, benefits from the seller, and so on and so forth.
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:52 pm

    Some very interesting photos.


    Notice on the back of this PAK-FA, there is the little pyramid housing two identical but opposite facing EO systems.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 8 Maks1310


    And here is a new photo, with the same system being mounted on the underside of the front fuselage.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 8 0_157f11


    Very interesting, I am curious to see the final EO suite for the PAK-FA.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:58 am

    Politicians are greedy and selfish and use government purchases to line their own pockets or establish powerful links or ties.

    For a country like Brazil, a fighter aircraft purchase is not about survival... it is about economic offsets and better economic ties with other countries.

    Most politicians don't know and don't care what their military need and even when it seems a done deal things can be not as they seem.

    The MiG-35 was within budget and likely did everything the Indians required officially, but its main fault was that it was Russian, and India has a policy of not buying all its aircraft from one source... of course this time their policy bit them in the ass... they would have been much better off replacing all their obsolete aircraft like their MiG-21s with even old model MiG-29s with SMT upgrades... they would have been fairly cheap and had rather more growth potential than any model MiG-21.

    Of course no level of marketing or pressure would have pushed through that deal because the Indians didn't want another Russian aircraft.

    For Russia to get more success on the international market, they need to just keep on offering good products at good prices... over time France will price itselt out of the market, and experience with US gear will result in many countries looking for alternatives... especially if they want weapons without strings or sanctions.
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    Post  Cyrus the great Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:20 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I'm really excited about the PAK FA, and based on what I've read from ausairpower and others, the PAK FA won't be as stealthy as the F-35 but it will be able to defeat it by intelligently incorporating the strengths of stealth and maneuverability. I wonder exactly just how far out the PAK FA will be able to detect the F-35.  

    Well, major difference between aesa vs pesa radar has to do with how the information is communicated between devices from the antenna, and Irbis E can detect something stealthy by 90km, I would assume PAK FA would detect it at same range as the N036 is an AESA variant of Irbis E, using similar amounts of power.

    Thanks for this, mate. With advances in radar technology, I wonder if we'll get to the stage of rendering stealth obsolete or so compromised that it simply isn't worth the bother anymore. The F-35's operational and support costs apparently now exceed the combined costs of all legacy fighters in U.S. inventory. I don't know if the U.S. will be able to field and operate 2400 F-35s with such high costs.

    Question to forum: What do you make of talk about creating a virtually unjammable 'quantum radar' that can supposedly detect even stealth aircraft?

    Source: http://countdowntozerotime.org/2013/02/18/the-unjammable-quantum-radar-that-could-render-all-stealth-planes-useless/

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