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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:51 pm

    max steel wrote:PAK FA with the Type 30 engine will fly in 2017 according to Lenta.

    http://lenta.ru/news/2014/12/04/2ndstage/

    However, Pogosyan had stated that Type 30 will only be available in 2019.

    Read somewhere that the Type 30 engine is in bench testing.Dunno if it has progresed over to a flying labarotory yet?

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 7 Kj8s11


    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1345874.html

    First two experimental examples of the Second Stage engines to be ready this year.

    w/o even going into the more contested issues of PAK-FA vs F-22, or Su-35 vs Eurofighter & Rafale F3; there are more than enough things here that are absolutely ridiculous.

    Su-35 being less capable than the Gripen NG? Seriously, the Su-35 less capable than a delta-wing design 1-engine fighter?

    F-35 on par with the PAK-FA? And costing less to operate? With all of its rotating engine assemblies and VTOL capabilities?

    SAAB is under some serious, serious delusions.

    I would certainly be the first to admit though that the Gripen series looks like excellent value for money though and deserves more orders than it gets.
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:42 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    I would certainly be the first to admit though that the Gripen series looks like excellent value for money though and deserves more orders than it gets.

    The Gripen finished last in the technical round of the Indian MMRCA competition. Even Finland rejected the Gripen. It basically is an F-16 on steroids. If you want an affordable fighter then go for the MiG 35.
    Flanky
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    Post  Flanky on Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:48 pm

    Boy look at the image...
    F-35 at the same level as pakfa and cheaper?
    Haha made me laugh... SAAB..... good one... Laughing
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:23 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Su-35 being less capable than the Gripen NG? Seriously, the Su-35 less capable than a delta-wing design 1-engine fighter?
    [..]
    SAAB is under some serious, serious delusions.
    artists's rendition of Saab's delusion:


    Sukhoi better gib some amraamski love on the cute wittle gwipen too in their next promotional vidya to return the favor.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:52 pm

    Flanky wrote:Boy look at the image...
    F-35 at the same level as pakfa and cheaper?
    Haha made me laugh... SAAB..... good one... Laughing

    lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
    this was a good one, Swedes have good sens of humor same as with gay sailors to fend off Russian subs Very Happy

    BTW Su-35 more expensive than Eurofighter affraid




    GarryB wrote:
    For me it is even more funny to see Viggen NG sand Rafale above Su-35 Very Happy
    F-35 on level with PAK FA is just paranoia and blatant lie.

    I think you should take a look at the bottom right hand corner of the screen... where it says SAAB... and ask yourself what aircraft maker would think performance vs cost would make their product look good... especially when they over estimate their products performance... I mean the Gripen is good but certainly does not have better performance than an Su-35...

    Also I would mention people claiming bare metal is not stealthy... duh.

    the F-117 is mostly aluminium... WTF would they need that stupid faceted shape if it was super radar invisible composites and RAM?

    If RAM was so effective why bother with new stealth aircraft... just make old aircraft out of this new super RAM crap and tadaaa you have a stealth plane... as long as you paint it black.

    I appreciate your professionalism and technicalities but first sentence explains all in short Smile
    max steel
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    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:22 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Su-35 being less capable than the Gripen NG? Seriously, the Su-35 less capable than a delta-wing design 1-engine fighter?
    [..]
    SAAB is under some serious, serious delusions.
    artists's rendition of Saab's delusion:


    Sukhoi better gib some amraamski love on the cute wittle gwipen too in their next promotional vidya to return the favor.

    only if Grippen makers had used funds to make a worthy plane against su-35 instead of spending on its 7minute PRopaganda rag , things would be much more different for silly eruopeans .
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    Post  zepia on Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:10 am

    Gripen is a good plane. And it is one of the lowest operating cost fighter.
    But claiming gripen having more operational capability than su-35 is bullsh*t.

    The NG have AESA, IRST, supercruise, advance avionics, datalink, various weapons, etc.
    But what above su-35 doesn't have? plus TVC and more operating range.

    The main selling point of gripen is cheap operating cost. And one should note that gripen never won the deal by aircraft capability itself.
    They always offer 'best value package' including >100% industrial offsets in buyer country.
    In case of Thai airforce, they won the deal by offer 12 gripens, 2 AEW and 1 saab 340 for $1.1 bln. Plus saab helping develop our own datalink.

    Cheap to buy, cheap to operate, guarantee foreign investment = perfect recipe for not-so-rich airforce.
    2SPOOKY4U
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:40 am

    zepia wrote:Gripen is a good plane. And it is one of the lowest operating cost fighter.
    But claiming gripen having more operational capability than su-35 is bullsh*t.

    The NG have AESA, IRST, supercruise, advance avionics, datalink, various weapons, etc.
    But what above su-35 doesn't have? plus TVC and more operating range.

    The main selling point of gripen is cheap operating cost. And one should note that gripen never won the deal by aircraft capability itself.
    They always offer 'best value package' including >100% industrial offsets in buyer country.
    In case of Thai airforce, they won the deal by offer 12 gripens, 2 AEW and 1 saab 340 for $1.1 bln. Plus saab helping develop our own datalink.

    Cheap to buy, cheap to operate, guarantee foreign investment = perfect recipe for not-so-rich airforce.

    Another problem with Gripen is that it is not even fully European, huge portion of it is american parts.
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    Post  Guest on Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:17 am

    zepia wrote:Gripen is a good plane. And it is one of the lowest operating cost fighter.
    But claiming gripen having more operational capability than su-35 is bullsh*t.

    The NG have AESA, IRST, supercruise, advance avionics, datalink, various weapons, etc.
    But what above su-35 doesn't have? plus TVC and more operating range.

    The main selling point of gripen is cheap operating cost. And one should note that gripen never won the deal by aircraft capability itself.
    They always offer 'best value package' including >100% industrial offsets in buyer country.
    In case of Thai airforce, they won the deal by offer 12 gripens, 2 AEW and 1 saab 340 for $1.1 bln. Plus saab helping develop our own datalink.

    Cheap to buy, cheap to operate, guarantee foreign investment = perfect recipe for not-so-rich airforce.
    Not a perfect comparison, but I see the Gripen NG attempting to fill a similar role in today's smaller air forces as the F-16 did before it and the MiG-21 did before the F-16. They are all pretty advanced and versatile aircraft for their times but they are all affordable allowing countries with not so high budgets to develop later.
    2SPOOKY4U wrote:Another problem with Gripen is that it is not even fully European, huge portion of it is american parts.
    Good luck trying to find any piece of Western military hardware larger than small arms that are fully indigenous.
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    Post  jhelb on Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:40 am

    zepia wrote:Gripen is a good plane.

    That's a flawed premise. It is anything but a good plane. It flunked the technical tests in Switzerland,India and reportedly also in Finland.

    Hungary has grounded its entire Gripen fleet after two back to back crashes.
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    Post  jhelb on Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:34 am

    Meanwhile more good news about the F-35

    Test Pilot Admits the F-35 Can’t Dogfight
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:05 pm

    I think the Gripen definately has a niche.

    A small, modern multi-role fighter fully compatible with all the latest weapon and EW systems; that is cheap to operate.

    For countries with a small-budget that need interceptors, fighter-bombers and fighters, the Gripen can deliver that in one package.
    Of course, so could the MiG-35.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:04 am

    flamming_python wrote:I think the Gripen definately has a niche.

    A small, modern multi-role fighter fully compatible with all the latest weapon and EW systems; that is cheap to operate.

    For countries with a small-budget that need interceptors, fighter-bombers and fighters, the Gripen can deliver that in one package.
    Of course, so could the MiG-35.

    Cheap to operate however...Expensive politically as your logistics tail is at the mercy of an ungodly amount of different countries that produce the different parts and spares!
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:51 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I think the Gripen definately has a niche.

    A small, modern multi-role fighter fully compatible with all the latest weapon and EW systems; that is cheap to operate.

    For countries with a small-budget that need interceptors, fighter-bombers and fighters, the Gripen can deliver that in one package.
    Of course, so could the MiG-35.

    Cheap to operate however...Expensive politically as your logistics tail is at the mercy of an ungodly amount of different countries that produce the different parts and spares!

    There are many countries for whom Western dependence won't be a problem, or who avoid stepping on the West's toes and fall in line anyway.
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:47 pm



    Gripen is anything but cheap.. is actually more expensive than the Su-35 last time i saw.
    And its full of american parts...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:15 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I think the Gripen definately has a niche.

    A small, modern multi-role fighter fully compatible with all the latest weapon and EW systems; that is cheap to operate.

    For countries with a small-budget that need interceptors, fighter-bombers and fighters, the Gripen can deliver that in one package.
    Of course, so could the MiG-35.

    Cheap to operate however...Expensive politically as your logistics tail is at the mercy of an ungodly amount of different countries that produce the different parts and spares!

    There are many countries for whom Western dependence won't be a problem, or who avoid stepping on the West's toes and fall in line anyway.

    There will be a time where being a vassal state will bite you in the ass, say take for example the West's stance on Greece and their separate stance on Ukraine...the IMF said they'd still support Ukraine if they default on their debt, while their putting extreme pressure on Greece not to default on debt, and with such hypocrisy and the mere fact that Greece is both in the EU and NATO while Ukraine isn't is proof that being a vassal state and having your captors constantly making demands of delivering pounds of flesh can be too high of a price to pay! You can't put a price on strategic independence!

    BTW the problem is both South Africa, and Brazil have ordered Gripen's, and both are in BRICS so...... unshaven
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:02 pm

    Damn Mad

    Ministry of Defence procurement reduces the fifth generation fighter T-50
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:05 pm

    Viktor wrote:Damn Mad

    Ministry of Defence procurement reduces the fifth generation fighter T-50


    We know about this already, they are not changing the deadlines which is the important part.

    And besides, we are getting more of the Su-35.
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    Post  mack8 on Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:30 pm

    So should it be understood that so far they will only get one squadron of T-50 by 2020, with (hopefully) bulk procurement to follow thereafter? There better be some hefty numbers of Su-35S, maybe Su-30SM and MiG-35s too to cover the procurement gap (i would guesstimate they can get 100 or more of those for the price of 60 T-50). Would be interesting to know what the real reason is for the delay, cost, the aircraft is not fully ready yet, both?
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    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:53 pm

    Hmm, I seems to be constantly getting mixed reports regarding orders for PAK FA. What we do know is by 2020, they will get a squadron of PAK FA's. After 2020? Who knows. I know it was said it was 12 aircrafts total by then. Is that a squadron?

    Anyway, at least more Su-35's. Sucks that they reduced PAK FA orders right now, especially with how US is being very aggressive at Russias borders. But they sure do have great faith in Su-35's performance.

    I guess we will see what they decide afterwords. I think a cheaper alternative to PAK FA should be in the works in order to make it more affordable. Maybe total number of pak fas will be 200 instead of 250 like planned?
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    Post  max steel on Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:20 pm

    I hope russian govt don't end up like american govt with their f/a-22 procurement .
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    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:36 pm

    I dont think so. TR1 made a good point on keypub. He pretty much said that what they want is still there but initial orders will be low to work out kinks, and to stretch the program out to save money in long run. So they will get their PAK FA's but initial batch is low, which is evident by the words borisov said. Also, according to both him and berkut, Su-35 had to go back to knaapo due to issues of early batches for upgrades, so same can be even more problematic for a brand new fighter of a whole different class than before.
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    Post  max steel on Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:02 pm

    Due to lack of variable threads I've noticed TR1 behaviour has improved Very Happy .  Though he called us clowns but doesn't matter . Seph you've also registered on keypub , i just noticed .
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    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:10 pm

    max steel wrote:Due to lack of variable threads I've noticed TR1 behaviour has improved Very Happy .  Though he called us clowns but doesn't matter . Seph you've also registered on keypub , i just noticed .

    Yeah, I have been a long time lurker and decided to open an account simply for 1 reason - someone said NDTV was a respectable indian news channel and I just wanted to explain why it wasnt.
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    Post  max steel on Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:22 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    Yeah, I have been a long time lurker and decided to open an account simply for 1 reason - someone said NDTV was a respectable indian news channel and I just wanted to explain why it wasnt.

    lol! lol! cheers Seriously ? which thread .

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