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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Flagship Victory
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    Post  Flagship Victory Fri May 01, 2015 4:58 pm

    The US congress has approved 200 million dollars worth of lethal aid to Ukraine. This is getting serious.
    macedonian
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    Post  macedonian Fri May 01, 2015 5:00 pm

    But of course:

    Clashes break out at banned Communist rally at Kyiv’s war museum

    Police detained 15 young men who tried to start a fight with supporters of the Communist Party
    at the Museum of the Great Patriotic War in the Ukrainian capital Kyiv on Friday, as Communists defied a court ban on the event.

    UNIAN wrote:Hromadske.tv reported that a group of young men, some of whom were wearing masks, tried to enter the grounds of the museum. The police blocked them at the entrance, where scuffles broke out. Several young people were taken by force to police buses.
    UNIAN.ua >>

    and the same thing reported by Interfax Ukraine >>
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri May 01, 2015 5:04 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:The US congress has approved 200 million dollars worth of lethal aid to Ukraine. This is getting serious.
    They need to throw 8-10 bln $ just to get Ukro army into a decent shape. These 200 mln $ aren't going to change much - in case of a full scale Russo-Novorussian attack they would help prolong the war by a couple of days... maybe.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Fri May 01, 2015 5:08 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:The US congress has approved 200 million dollars worth of lethal aid to Ukraine. This is getting serious.
    They need to throw 8-10 bln $ just to get Ukro army into a decent shape. These 200 mln $ aren't going to change much - in case of a full scale Russo-Novorussian attack they would help prolong the war by a couple of days... maybe.

    10bln would not do much, they lost territory with alot of industrial power, the ukrainian MIC is almost flatlined and the rest of its military is demoralized and on substandards.

    Make it 50 bln to bring them up on any modest standards.
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Fri May 01, 2015 5:09 pm

    This $200m and all previous donations from the USA are/were not for helping the economy.
    They are used on the armed forces in the form of salaries, equipment but also as big sums for top ranking officers to prepare the army for war. Remember, the Uk army was not ready for action after Maidan or Crimea. Money was the solution.
    There would never been an ATO in the Donbass if those (announced and unannounced) donations were not made.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Fri May 01, 2015 5:13 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:The US congress has approved 200 million dollars worth of lethal aid to Ukraine. This is getting serious.
    They need to throw 8-10 bln $ just to get Ukro army into a decent shape. These 200 mln $ aren't going to change much - in case of a full scale Russo-Novorussian attack they would help prolong the war by a couple of days... maybe.


    Interceptor armor is good against ordinary bullets. NAF will need black tipped armor piercing bullets to shoot through Interceptor armor. Hopefully NAF is using black tipped bullets. 7.62 by 54 rounds have those since the 1930s.


    Last edited by Flagship Victory on Fri May 01, 2015 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Cowboy's daughter
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri May 01, 2015 5:23 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:This $200m and all previous donations from the USA are/were not for helping the economy.
    They are used on the armed forces in the form of salaries, equipment but also as big sums for top ranking officers to prepare the army for war. Remember, the Uk army was not ready for action after Maidan or Crimea. Money was the solution.
    There would never been an ATO in the Donbass if those (announced and unannounced) donations were not made.

    There was a link to the document on RT.
    It's interesting reading, and I'll post it on my fb.

    part of it says:

    to provide assistance, including training, equipment, lethal weapons of a defensive nature, logistics support, supplies and services, and sustainment

    to the military and national security forces of Ukraine, through September 30, 2016, to assist the government of Ukraine for the following purposes:

    (1) Securing its sovereign territory against foreign aggressors.

    (2) Protecting and defending the Ukrainian people from attacks posed by Russian-backed separatists.

    (3) Promoting the conditions for a negotiated settlement to end the conflict.

    WITH REPORTING TO CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES.

    submits to the appropriate congressional committees a report in unclassified form with a classified annex as appropriate that contains a description of the plan for providing such assistance, including a description
    1
    of the types of training and equipment to be provided, the
    2
    estimated number and role of United States Armed Forces
    3
    personnel involved, the potential or actual locations of any
    4
    training, and any other relevant details.

    ETC.

    (h) RULE OF
    CONSTRUCTION
    .—Nothing in this section shall be construed to constitute a specific statutory authorization for the introduction of United States Armed
    Forces into hostilities or into situations in which hostilities are clearly indicated by the circumstances
    Flagship Victory
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    Post  Flagship Victory Fri May 01, 2015 5:26 pm

    @Cowboy's daughter

    Do you happen to be an American? cheers
    avatar
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    Post  Firebird Fri May 01, 2015 5:28 pm

    macedonian wrote:Well, as expected the Americans aren't giving up, since losses by Ukrainian military mean nothing to them.

    House committee approves $200 million for arming Ukraine


    RT wrote:Citing an anti-Russia policy brief, US lawmakers approved $200 million for providing “lethal weapons of a defensive nature” to the Ukrainian government as part of the $600 billion Pentagon budget proposal for the fiscal year 2016.

    The House Armed Services Committee passed its proposal for the 2016 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) with a bipartisan vote of 60 to 2, in what Defense News described as a “marathon” session that ended around 4:30am on Thursday.

    Section 1532 of the 498-page document calls for the US to provide assistance, “including training, equipment, lethal weapons of a defensive nature, logistics support, supplies and services, and sustainment to the military and national security forces of Ukraine” through the end of September 2016.

    In addition to the $200 million allocated for the program, the proposal also authorizes the Pentagon to “accept and retain contributions, including in-kind contributions, from foreign governments.”

    continued @ RT >>

    and a nice rebuff from our people of DNR:

    TACC wrote:...
    "This once again says that the overseas sponsors of Kiev are preparing for a new war and are not planning to act in line with the Minsk-2 [February 12 package of measures on the implementation of the Minsk agreements]," he said in comments to the news.
    ...

    read the whole thing @ TASS >>

    But because Bathhouse Obummer won't approve it, America wont be able to send the arms.

    If they did, I think Russia should send some Topol Ms to the Big Chief Sitting Bull as well as Louis Farakan's Nation of Islam lot.

    Either way, it does show what dogshit infests politics in the United Snakes.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri May 01, 2015 5:39 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:@Cowboy's daughter

    Do you happen to be an American? cheers


    Yes.

    You are too?
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    Post  macedonian Fri May 01, 2015 6:01 pm

    Has this been posted yet?

    Flagship Victory
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    Post  Flagship Victory Fri May 01, 2015 7:00 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:@Cowboy's daughter

    Do you happen to be an American? cheers


    Yes.

    You are too?


    I'm Canadian cheers
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri May 01, 2015 7:02 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:The US congress has approved 200 million dollars worth of lethal aid to Ukraine. This is getting serious.
    They need to throw 8-10 bln $ just to get Ukro army into a decent shape. These 200 mln $ aren't going to change much - in case of a full scale Russo-Novorussian attack they would help prolong the war by a couple of days... maybe.


    Interceptor armor is good against ordinary bullets. NAF will need black tipped armor piercing bullets to shoot through Interceptor armor. Hopefully NAF is using black tipped bullets. 7.62 by 54 rounds have those since the 1930s.
    70% of all casualties in wars are caused by artillery anyway - add casualties caused by armor and other AFVS and it turns out that casualties from small arms fire account for less than 10% of casualties.

    Trying to improve Ukro situation by sending them bulletproof vests will be ineffective. Novorussian army also has them after all.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Fri May 01, 2015 7:26 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:@Cowboy's daughter

    Do you happen to be an American? cheers


    Yes.

    You are too?


    I'm Canadian cheers

    Super cool. cheers

    I also wondered if you were from UK...now I know, thanks!
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    Post  etaepsilonk Fri May 01, 2015 7:41 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    70% of all casualties in wars are caused by artillery anyway - add casualties caused by armor and other AFVS and it turns out that casualties from small arms fire account for less than 10% of casualties.

    Trying to improve Ukro situation by sending them bulletproof vests will be ineffective. Novorussian army also has them after all.

    If I remember right, american study from vietnam war found that body armor reduces death rate by up to 70 percent. Yes, that includes artillery too, since vests can stop some fragments.
    Airbornewolf
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    Post  Airbornewolf Fri May 01, 2015 7:57 pm

    macedonian wrote:Has this been posted yet?


    wow!, good find!. there is clearly an world of difference in the tactical performance in the opening of the confict and in this vid of the NAF. im impressed.

    really, Ukraine's army wont be combat-capable for the next 5 years. if they actually try to attack against motivated trained guys like these it can only end in another massive defeat.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri May 01, 2015 8:01 pm

    200 million is token amount, just enough to generate headlines in the press. This translates to almost nothing in practice.
    Wars are extremely expensive affairs and Kiev has already ran out of cash despite what Porky and assorted "experts" claim.

    Remember what was happening so far: every time Kiev did get something, rebels got more, better and superior stuff.

    Even if Ukies were to get some usable gear, they only risk rebels getting their hands on stuff whose names contain words like "cluster, cruise, guided, thermobaric, etc..." Cool
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    Post  gregoire Fri May 01, 2015 8:30 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:200 million is token amount, just enough to generate headlines in the press. This translates to almost nothing in practice.
    Wars are extremely expensive affairs and Kiev has already ran out of cash despite what Porky and assorted "experts" claim.

    Remember what was happening so far: every time Kiev did get something, rebels got more, better and superior stuff.  

    Even if  Ukies were to get some usable gear, they only risk rebels getting their hands on stuff whose names contain words like "cluster, cruise, guided, thermobaric, etc..."   Cool

    I agree. It's a token amount. To change the tide you need billions, well trained soldiers, months of preparation and motivated personnel. The only thing that keep the UAF afloat is their numbers. To me it seems like they are just throwing some wood on the fire to keep the conflict from dying a natural death. Either there won't be a conflict or this will be the last truce.
    Flagship Victory
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    Post  Flagship Victory Fri May 01, 2015 9:16 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    70% of all casualties in wars are caused by artillery anyway - add casualties caused by armor and other AFVS and it turns out that casualties from small arms fire account for less than 10% of casualties.

    Trying to improve Ukro situation by sending them bulletproof vests will be ineffective. Novorussian army also has them after all.

    If I remember right, american study from vietnam war found that body armor reduces death rate by up to 70 percent. Yes, that includes artillery too, since vests can stop some fragments.


    Fragments are really hard metal like cast iron or forged steel and go at more than twice the speed of bullets. IMO body armor cannot stop fragments unless fragments are really far. Body armor can stop bullets that are not armor piercing.
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    Post  whir Fri May 01, 2015 9:19 pm

    The Washington Times wrote:Ukraine sees ‘brain drain’ as its best and brightest escape chaos for the West
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 36 2d6mjj7
    Eduard Korniyenko / Reuters
    The ongoing security situation and lack of economic opportunities has Ukrainians leaving in droves for the West — and even Russia. However, some say the exodus will allow for new opportunities at home. (Associated Press)


    By Ted Phillips - Special to The Washington Times - - Tuesday, April 21, 2015
    KHARKIV, Ukraine — Elvira Gorbunova came to Kharkiv in January, leaving her home in separatist-controlled Krasny Luch to escape dangers of living in a war zone. But she hopes Ukraine’s second-largest city is just a stop on her family’s journey to North America.

    “I don’t think we have any prospects here in Ukraine — plus we have a 1-year-old child,” said Ms. Gorbunova, a 30-year-old schoolteacher who is now a stay-at-home mother. “Another country will have more opportunities for a good education for him and a better future than here.”

    The Gorbunovas are just a few in a long line of people trying to get out of the country since the conflict and economic crisis between the government and Russia-backed separatists exploded last year, with some worrying that Ukraine will lose some of its best and brightest. Continue reading.

    Kazzura wrote:[eng subs] Interview about events of Odessa massacre with one of its anti-govt activists survivors

    Russia Insider wrote:Crimea Investigators Detain "Azov" Batallion Terror Suspect
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 36 34fn1pz
    Natalya Poklonskaya.(RIA Novosti / Andrey Iglov)
    Crimea Prosecutor Natalia Polonskaya announces suspected terrorist bomb plot on her offices

    According to investigators, a member of the “Azov” volunteer battalion has been detained as a suspect in a plot to set off an explosion at the building of the Republican Prosecutor’s office. Continue reading.

    Tass wrote:Kiev forces increase shellings in eastern Ukraine after Poroshenko's interview
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 36 2zxpnvr
    Smoke rises over a village near the Donetsk airport, Apr. 13, 2015© Mikhail Sokolov/TASS
    According to the militia, fire was opened over 140 times over the past 24 hours in the area of the Donetsk airport

    MOSCOW, May 1. /TASS/. Ukrainian forces based in the Opytnoye village have opened fire on the territory of the embattled Donetsk airport more than 140 times over the past 24 hours, the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic military spokesman Eduard Basurin said on Friday.Continue reading.

    Sputnik wrote:Russia Rejects Ukraine's Claim It Proposed Soldier-Peacekeepers For Donbass

    EUROPE 16:15 01.05.2015 (updated 17:23 01.05.2015)
    Russian Presidential Secretary Dmitri Peskov has officially denied a claim made by the press office of Ukraine's president, which stated that in the course of a recent telephone conversation in the Normandy Four format, President Vladimir Putin had proposed sending Russian peacekeepers to Donbass.

    The press release, published Thursday on the Ukrainian president's website, states that "in the context of discussing the ways of peaceful settlement, President Putin agreed to an opportunity of deploying peacekeeping contingent in Donbass." The statement also notes that "the Ukrainian President has emphasized the inadmissibility of sending so-called Russian humanitarian convoys through the uncontrolled border area between Ukraine and Russia." Continue reading.

    nyka_huldra via Google Translate wrote:Without sanctions played a short black man dancing ...
    Visa and MasterCard are working again in the Crimea

    Clients of international payment systems Visa and MasterCard can again use their cards in the Crimea. Withdraw money from ATMs can be the region's largest bank RNCB that does not charge a commission on transactions with cards by Russian banks. Continue reading.
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    Post  whir Fri May 01, 2015 9:23 pm

    Sadly I can't post links but I suppose there's enough information to find the original articles for those interested.
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    Post  kvs Fri May 01, 2015 9:51 pm

    The Washington Post propaganda piece is pathetic. The vast majority of those leaving are going to Russia. Especially if they are
    from the south and east (e.g. Kharkov). Many of them are military industry workers and they have jobs offered to them in Russia.
    Going to Canada, for example, will see them driving taxis or some other degradation of their employment status.

    Sure, some of them are heading for the NATO promised land. But WP and the rest of the western media just can't stop lying.
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    Post  Airbornewolf Fri May 01, 2015 10:00 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    70% of all casualties in wars are caused by artillery anyway - add casualties caused by armor and other AFVS and it turns out that casualties from small arms fire account for less than 10% of casualties.

    Trying to improve Ukro situation by sending them bulletproof vests will be ineffective. Novorussian army also has them after all.

    If I remember right, american study from vietnam war found that body armor reduces death rate by up to 70 percent. Yes, that includes artillery too, since vests can stop some fragments.


    Fragments are really hard metal like cast iron or forged steel and go at more than twice the speed of bullets. IMO body armor cannot stop fragments unless fragments are really far. Body armor can stop bullets that are not armor piercing.

    in contrary to what some people think body armour got serious limitations, the actual plating in the vest only protects an small part of your body. mostly where your most critical organs are. covering only the lungs, heart and stumach. anything not properly plated does not protect against anything in this day and age. shrapnell has the sharpness of an razorblade that cuts open your fingers when you pick up an fresh shard. the effects of shrapnell are for that matter gruesome when you imagine pieces of metal are flying around that are as sharp as razorblades and when big enough it just will take your head or limbs off. cutting trough any body armour thats not plated.

    and even the plates just absorb the kinetic impact of bullets and shrapnell. with an direct hit the place does stop an 7.62 MM or an large piece of shrapnell. but with absorbing that energy the plates transfer that energy directly into your body. it hurts like hell and the armour comes with specifications what it CAN deal with. for example take an 12.7 MM round to your chest the plate might stop it, but it will buckle badly inwards and the kinetic energy will wreck your internal organs anyway.

    all body armour does is prevent penetration of a small part on your back and front. and no plates mean no protection either against serious injury potential no matter if its labeled "kevlar" or not.

    and there is an very difference between getting killed in action and return home disabled. like the U.S and NATO downplays with "wounded in action" they actually mean "going home without an limb, blinded or crapping for the rest of their life in an plastic bag". no matter how you call it active combat troops are rendered incapable of combat when struck with arty and happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. shrapnell itself is not easily removed either from the human body and their serrated edges often cut trough parts of the body that makes an full recovery in most cases not likely. and as they are wedged into flesh need an seriously good surgeon to get it out without causing more damage to tissue.

    does body armour help?. yes, because penetration of one or more organs of your "golden three" (head, heart, lungs) cuts your life expectancy short before you even get medevac and get an doctor to look at you.

    but in the sense of the actual use for wartime purposes it really has not much influence of the attrition rate in combat when related to all factors that can cause injury to an soldier.
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    Post  macedonian Fri May 01, 2015 10:53 pm

    good tweet

    Yury Barmin @yurybarmin
    Yuri Barmin wrote:When you amass so much military in #Odessa it's people's outrage, not a "Russian provocation", you are afraid of.
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 36 CD6p7BMWoAA9Ouc
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    Post  kvs Fri May 01, 2015 11:24 pm

    A story that is not being told is that support for the Kiev regime in Ukraine is not solid. The performance of the conscripted army
    is a direct metric of this. A huge number manage to evade the "mobilization" aka draft and the rest are demoralized even before
    they reach the Donbas. The only zealots are the Right Sector derived paramilitaries and that is not a surprise. But based on their
    performance they are very poor fighters and are only good at killing civilians (e.g. the mass graves dug up a few weeks ago).

    I think the majority of the Ukrainian population (around 60%) want nothing to do with the regime. If you look at the turnout
    numbers for the last election you see this pattern. Someone in the electoral committee produce turn out maps that were too
    accurate since they disagreed with the final turnout claimed. The maps were way more credible since they properly showed
    the regional drop in support for participating in the "new order" in the south and east. Based on these maps and previous voting
    preferences I get the 60% figure. This explains why the regime is using repression to secure itself. It does not have enough
    popular support.


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