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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:43 am

    A few weeks ago they were talking about reclaiming Crimea... Someone is losing traction.


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 30 F8b54ee9-302c-4680-8511-ca88b6ef5465-original
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:49 pm

    Things is getting funnier

    http://en.hunternews.ru/?p=1117

    Western Ukraine Ready for Secession
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    Post  Monarchist Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:32 pm

    auslander wrote:Real time commo with Gorlovka and environs shortly after midnight. Gorlovka proper is being shelled for three hours from 5 directions. Some private houses and flats houses are burning. Electric is out in at least one district. There are casualties, numbers unknown. Heavy artillery is used and at least one Grad missile has impacted in Gorlovka City proper.
    Atleast one civilian dead. It has started again.
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    Post  auslander Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:07 pm

    Monarchist wrote:
    auslander wrote:Real time commo with Gorlovka and environs shortly after midnight. Gorlovka proper is being shelled for three hours from 5 directions. Some private houses and flats houses are burning. Electric is out in at least one district. There are casualties, numbers unknown. Heavy artillery is used and at least one Grad missile has impacted in Gorlovka City proper.
    Atleast one civilian dead. It has started again.

    Agreed. They always start the same way, the odd shell or mine coming in, then they sit back and see what the reaction is from EU-US. When there is none they slowly ratchet up the intensity all the while screaming that it's the Federalists shooting at them.

    They are again targeting civilian targets, gas, electric and water substations and civilian houses and flats houses. We are trying to get contact for the last hour to no avail.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:57 pm

    You are right Jag. This feels exactly like winter when ukrops were pulling the same BS thinking that they will "sneak in" some results. It failed then (as lot of us on MP.net predicted at a time) and if they are stupid enough to try it once more they will remember Ilovaysk and Debaltseve as the good old days. Twisted Evil

    After pwning they received on last two instances you think they would know better by now....whatever, it's their funeral...
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:02 pm

    max steel wrote:


    Czech Diplomat Applauds Odessa Massacre        


    Bartuška is a notorious Russia hater, he is in his position specifically to placate the Americans. As a former anti-Communist dissident he is viewed as ideologically proper by Washington, and he never disappoints it seems.  





    http://russia-insider.com/en/just-burn-or-bury-roadside/6146

    What the actual F***?

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    Post  auslander Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:You are right Jag. This feels exactly like winter when ukrops were pulling the same BS thinking that they will "sneak in" some results. It failed then (as lot of us on MP.net predicted at a time) and if they are stupid enough to try it once more they will remember Ilovaysk and Debaltseve as the good old days. Twisted Evil

    After pwning they received on last two instances you think they would know better by now....whatever, it's their funeral...

    It is a constant amazement to me, after a fashion, that our exalted partners from EU/US, those who constantly remind us of how uncivilized we are compared to them and who are constantly preening themselves about their concerns for the rights of the individual, seem to have no problem with more of our civilians dying and the fact that Ukraine has now an established track record of not honoring any document or agreement they sign.

    We still have no commo with Gorlovka today. The commo method is extant. This is worrying now.
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:57 pm

    Another joker on the move.

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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:08 pm

    auslander wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:You are right Jag. This feels exactly like winter when ukrops were pulling the same BS thinking that they will "sneak in" some results. It failed then (as lot of us on MP.net predicted at a time) and if they are stupid enough to try it once more they will remember Ilovaysk and Debaltseve as the good old days. Twisted Evil

    After pwning they received on last two instances you think they would know better by now....whatever, it's their funeral...

    It is a constant amazement to me, after a fashion, that our exalted partners from EU/US, those who constantly remind us of how uncivilized we are compared to them and who are constantly preening themselves about their concerns for the rights of the individual, seem to have no problem with more of our civilians dying and the fact that Ukraine has now an established track record of not honoring any document or agreement they sign.

    We still have no commo with Gorlovka today. The commo method is extant. This is worrying now.

    Thank you for updates.
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    Post  auslander Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:00 pm

    In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.
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    Post  gregoire Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:11 pm

    auslander wrote:In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    It will start at a date when they think russia is looking away. Think 2008 olympics or sochi. We both know which date this is and it's in may.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:30 pm

    gregoire wrote:
    auslander wrote:In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    It will start at a date when they think russia is looking away. Think 2008 olympics or sochi. We both know which date this is and it's in may.


    I read a post yesterday, or the day before, where Idk, either here or mp.net, It was about 3 sentences? or had 3-4 points, which said something about how the West/or Russia (because I can't remember where I read it or who it was about) brings down a government. Something like 1. introducing other ethnic groups into the country, and 2. ???, then 3. ???

    If anyone remembers posting it here, or remembers it, will you please let me know? At the time I read it, I thought: "That sounds like the USA, what's happening here." * put my little tinfoil hat on.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:34 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    gregoire wrote:
    auslander wrote:In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    It will start at a date when they think russia is looking away. Think 2008 olympics or sochi. We both know which date this is and it's in may.


    I read a post yesterday, or the day before, where Idk, either here or mp.net, It was about 3 sentences? or had 3-4 points,  which said something about how the West/or Russia (because I can't remember where I read it or who it was about)  brings down a government. Something like 1. introducing other ethnic groups into the country,  and 2. ???, then 3. ???

    If anyone remembers posting it here, or remembers it,  will you please let me know? At the time I read it, I thought: "That sounds like the USA, what's happening here." * put my little tinfoil hat on.

    That's the "How to Destroy a nation Guide" that a lunatic made on MP.net. As you now know even a broken watch gives the right time twice a day.
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    Post  Viktor Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:42 pm

    Ukraine nazi government does it again thumbsup

    World Bank: Ukraine's GDP decline will accelerate to 7.5%
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:47 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Cowboy's daughter wrote:
    gregoire wrote:
    auslander wrote:In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    It will start at a date when they think russia is looking away. Think 2008 olympics or sochi. We both know which date this is and it's in may.


    I read a post yesterday, or the day before, where Idk, either here or mp.net, It was about 3 sentences? or had 3-4 points,  which said something about how the West/or Russia (because I can't remember where I read it or who it was about)  brings down a government. Something like 1. introducing other ethnic groups into the country,  and 2. ???, then 3. ???

    If anyone remembers posting it here, or remembers it,  will you please let me know? At the time I read it, I thought: "That sounds like the USA, what's happening here." * put my little tinfoil hat on.

    That's the "How to Destroy a nation Guide" that a lunatic made on MP.net. As you now know even a broken watch gives the right time twice a day.

    Very Happy Thank you!! I'll go read it before the whole place disappears!
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    Post  auslander Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:02 pm

    gregoire wrote: It will start at a date when they think russia is looking away. Think 2008 olympics or sochi. We both know which date this is and it's in may.

    I agree on the prospective date but only time will tell. If I am posting that day instead of marching in the parade you will know it's coming.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:18 pm

    That's the "How to Destroy a nation Guide" that a lunatic made on MP.net. As you now know even a broken watch gives the right time twice a day.


    KoTeMoRe, do you remember which forum it's on? thank you!
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:22 pm

    Cowboy's daughter wrote:That's the "How to Destroy a nation Guide" that a lunatic made on MP.net. As you now know even a broken watch gives the right time twice a day.


    KoTeMoRe, do you remember which forum it's on? thank you!


    Iy was a video posted by one of the USA, USA crew. On politics and rants/

    It was based on this.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:03 pm

    auslander wrote:In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    The UAF have been digging in and establishing a strong defensive line along the Minsk 2.0 borders (plus or minus some contested settlements).

    This can be for one of 2 reasons.

    a). They realise that they're just going to end up getting their butt kicked again if war restarts, and fear a rebel advance. They have given up all hope of getting back the rebellious regions but for internal/domestic reasons have of course not publically admitted so.

    b). They have decided to adopt a new strategy where they will have a strong defensive line that they can launch probing attacks and provocations from, with the aim either being to either chip away at Novorussian morale/manpower via attrition, or restart the war outright and drawing the Novorussian forces towards their entrenchments; where they lie prepared.

    I honestly have no idea which is the case here.

    Now one might point to the various skirmishes and firefights that have been taking place as evidence of b)., however this could just as easily be explained as competition over defensible junctions/settlements for each side's respective defensive lines, rebel provocations, or just the sort of thing you would get in any undecided war with a flimsy ceasefire and no peacekeeper precense (e.g. exchanges of ordenance happen in Nagorny-Karabakh to this day)
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    Post  Airbornewolf Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:19 pm

    auslander wrote:

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    take my word for it, the U.S "advisors" in Kiev made Kiev throw everything they had against eastern Ukraine. Ukraine wasted their entire manpower and its morale in the process. its takes propably an entire generation or two before Kiev can even put an "army" on the battlefield. what they got now are just bits and pieces of destroyed units scraped together to present to their own media as an "army". i know an destroyed army if i see one, even if you put all the major defeats of the ukraine army in a row its just catastrophic.

    the U.S millitary's trainers arent going to teach those recruits anything. they can barely can keep themselves alive in Afghanistan and Iraq because of their "exceptional" arrogance thinking they would teach those peasants with AK's an lesson. even when "we" the rest of NATO would advise then to do something differently to reduce risk to their own troops they just laughed at us. thinking it was cowardly behaviour or something. and i mean seriously stupid mistakes, starting from the individual U.S soldier exiting cover into open terrain towards Taliban that where firing from an fortified position all the way up to their command level ignoring our intell and after action reports and drive straight into an ambush where we exactly said it most likely would be. getting almost their entire platoon killed in the process.

    and whats the worst...or in Novorossiya's case an maybe a blessing is this U.S arrogance they never learn, its always "died in the war against terror" or "served his country" or other nonsense excuse while it could have been prevented by just applying common sense, some reasoning and learning of mistakes. nobody in the U.S army ever asks themselves. "wait, should we evaluate this and change SOP?. or drag his ass to the millitary court for responsibility of deaths by sheer incompetence?". and thats the kind of people training the Ukies right now.... the Ukraine army would have the same result out of "training" if they'd bought COD: Modern Warfare for training for their troops.




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    Post  Flagship Victory Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:48 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    auslander wrote:In my opinion we are seeing several tasks being performed by UAF. The on again off again fighting along the demarcation line from the Azov all the way around to the mouth of the remains of the Debaltsyevo Pocket are two fold in purpose. One, to be blunt they are blooding their new troops and two, they are probing NAF line defenses. The artillery is partly the old 'if I can't have it you won't have it either' but the major tasks of the artillerymen is to train in the use of drones for artillery spotting. Gone are the days when they needed spotters on the ground or beacons set up by fifth columnists.

    Another part of the process is to weed out the reluctant fighters in NAF by either killing or wounding them off in fruitless assaults or putting them in situations where they become prisoners.

    I have no doubts at all that what I am seeing and what I am hearing about from reliable sources is training and organization by foreign instructional cadre on the side of UAF. This happens in any war since the beginning of time. NAF are being trained and instructed by what are in essence foreign, to NAF, trainers also.

    The problem with this process on the UAF side is they are becoming a much tougher opponent when the war starts up again, and I have precisely zero hopes that it will not renew in a more ferocious and violent manner than ever before in this conflict. I have few doubts that NAF will not be able to hold on their own but the costs in both civilian and military casualties will be considerably more than in the previous truce failures.

    While I have my own ideas of when the war will start active fighting again but I will not make a conjecture as to the rough date.

    The UAF have been digging in and establishing a strong defensive line along the Minsk 2.0 borders (plus or minus some contested settlements).

    This can be for one of 2 reasons.

    a). They realise that they're just going to end up getting their butt kicked again if war restarts, and fear a rebel advance. They have given up all hope of getting back the rebellious regions but for internal/domestic reasons have of course not publically admitted so.

    b). They have decided to adopt a new strategy where they will have a strong defensive line that they can launch probing attacks and provocations from, with the aim either being to either chip away at Novorussian morale/manpower via attrition, or restart the war outright and drawing the Novorussian forces towards their entrenchments; where they lie prepared.

    I honestly have no idea which is the case here.

    Now one might point to the various skirmishes and firefights that have been taking place as evidence of b)., however this could just as easily be explained as competition over defensible junctions/settlements for each side's respective defensive lines, rebel provocations, or just the sort of thing you would get in any undecided war with a flimsy ceasefire and no peacekeeper precense (e.g. exchanges of ordenance happen in Nagorny-Karabakh to this day)

    AFAIK, air burst artillery shells are devastating against personnel in trenches. During WW1, lord knows how many soldiers lost their lives in trenches due to air burst artillery shells.
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:56 am

    Thenk you, KoTeMoRe for posting the video. I never found the post. I can only guess it was deleted...
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  kvs Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:25 am

    Viktor wrote:Ukraine nazi government does it again  thumbsup

    World Bank: Ukraine's GDP decline will accelerate to 7.5%

    These estimate are laughable. Ukraine has lost 25% of its exports through the loss of just Donetsk and Lugansk.
    But that is just the start. It has trashed its main export market, Russia. So Kharkov and elsewhere are impacted
    as well. Ignoring the loss of Crimea, Ukraine's GDP is going down over 20% this year at the very least. I suspect
    that the decline will be over 30% for both 2014 and 2015.

    There is no way Ukraine will lose 7.5% when Russia is forecast to lose 5%. Of course Russia will not lose 5% and
    the shock has dissipated already as evident from the results of the 1st quarter of this year. The World Bank will
    not make Ukraine's economy last longer by lying about it.
    Flagship Victory
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Flagship Victory Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:28 am

    kvs wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Ukraine nazi government does it again  thumbsup

    These estimate are laughable.   Ukraine has lost 25% of its exports through the loss of just Donetsk and Lugansk.  
    But that is just the start.  It has trashed its main export market, Russia.   So Kharkov and elsewhere are impacted
    as well.   Ignoring the loss of Crimea, Ukraine's GDP is going down over 20% this year at the very least.  I suspect
    that the decline will be over 30% for both 2014 and 2015.  

    There is no way Ukraine will lose 7.5% when Russia is forecast to lose 5%.   Of course Russia will not lose 5% and
    the shock has dissipated already as evident from the results of the 1st quarter of this year.   The World Bank will
    not make Ukraine's economy last longer by lying about it.


    Ukraine's economy when taking into account massive inflation falls by a lot more than 7.5%. Ukraine's inflation is at 40%.

    Ukraine lost 3 million in Donbas + 2 million in Crimea = more than 10% of Ukraine's population in 2013.
    Erk
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 30 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Erk Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:52 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Ukraine nazi government does it again  thumbsup

    These estimate are laughable.   Ukraine has lost 25% of its exports through the loss of just Donetsk and Lugansk.  
    But that is just the start.  It has trashed its main export market, Russia.   So Kharkov and elsewhere are impacted
    as well.   Ignoring the loss of Crimea, Ukraine's GDP is going down over 20% this year at the very least.  I suspect
    that the decline will be over 30% for both 2014 and 2015.  

    There is no way Ukraine will lose 7.5% when Russia is forecast to lose 5%.   Of course Russia will not lose 5% and
    the shock has dissipated already as evident from the results of the 1st quarter of this year.   The World Bank will
    not make Ukraine's economy last longer by lying about it.


    Ukraine's economy when taking into account massive inflation falls by a lot more than 7.5%. Ukraine's inflation is at 40%.

    Ukraine lost 3 million in Donbas + 2 million in Crimea = more than 10% of Ukraine's population in 2013.

    GDP figures are a scam, for example they count government spending in the GDP calculation but not government borrowing!


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