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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Previously the fence around the Trade Unions House in Odessa had been painted in colors of Ukraine as a provocation to Odessites, who did not respond. Last night vandals have progressed further in their provocations and destroyed the shrine to the victims of the massacre. Perhaps on a third provocation there will be a reaction, so 2 May could be interesting in Odessa, a spark to start war? I don't know. I would put the link to the article here but cannot yet post links, so need to look at madame_katushki on livejournal

    Or perhaps nothing, and the Odessites and all the other Eastern Ukrainians will continue to bend over and take it up the bum - "we're working people, we have jobs", "it's really not that bad", "main thing is that it's not happening to me and my family", "what Nazis?"... while the Banderites vandalize their monuments, desecrate the memory of their ancestors, beat up people on the street, take pride in brutal murders.. and while the 'government' arrests their relatives, conscripts their sons/brothers/husbands into fighting a fratecidal war, plunges their economy into the abyss, bans or assasinates all the politicians and parties that can represent their interests, takes the entire information space of the country into its grasp, silences dissidents, tries to bar their language from public life, etc..

    My prediction is that the Odessites will do precisely nothing on 2 May

    Photos and a report form the jackbooted, goosestepping police state in Odessa:

    Kiev's Witch Hunt Continues: 39 Pro-Russian 'Saboteurs' Arrested in Odessa

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 CCe-SRDUIAAhdv7

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 CCe-SORUAAEwUWy

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 CCe-SU2UkAAdU5l

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 CCe-SVHVIAAC3KV
    magnumcromagnon
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:22 pm

    CyberBerkut publishes a list of names of NATO military advisers in Ukraine:

    Translation of the scanned document

    From: Ministry of Foreign Affairs

    To: Administration of border guards of the Ukraine

    Ministry of Internal Affairs

    Security Service of the Ukraine

    Leaders of regions

    12th April – 6th May multinational inspection group of military experts led by the USA arrive in the Ukraine in order to conduct observatory missions according to regulations of Vidensko Agreement concerning trust and safety.

    The purpose of this mission is to observe and control the development in our country and working out the recommendations for peaceful settlement of crisis situation.

    So we ask the General Stuff Control Department of the Ukrainian Armed Forces to provide the observation mission with convoy including the protected vehicles from the Ministry of Armed Forces. We also ask to provide the group with the right of access to the frontier guards’ departments and military units of interior troops in the areas under inspection.

    In case of addressing the group and the member of observatory mission to the Ministry of Interior Affairs, SBU, Frontier Guards Administration representatives in the regions and areas we ask to coordinate it with the chief of convoy and discuss the possibilities of briefings concerning prospects on development in these areas.

    While holding the meetings with foreign representatives we ask to proceed from the fact that according to regulations of Vidensko Agreement all foreign observers obtain diplomatic status and to take into account the requirements of Article 6 Protocol 10 concerning the reaction to Crimea and Sevastopol events signed by the SNBO Secretary Parubyi (N429 from 04.04.2014)

    In case of revelation the unusual activity near the boundaries of the Ukraine as well as any activity aimed to violate state order we ask to inform immediately the chief of convoy lieutenant colonel Ponomarev Vladislav Sergeevich (mobile 097 469 9474) or orderly officer in General Stuff Control Department of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (phone/fax +44 483 0724).

    Vice-director

    Department of international Security V. Y. Nedopas

    NN Name/ surname  m/f passport  country  Date/time  flight

    1 Thomas Miller m DP25002157 Sweden 13.40 PS819
    2 Ian Almgerd m DP27002223 Sweden 13.40 PS819
    3 Von Rozenzveig m C4J6NCTWN Germany 13.40 7175
    4 Matias Kraimer m C4J6C7GNF Germany 13.40 7175
    5 Raimondas Ivanauscas m DP00002623 Lituania 14.00 L0767
    6 Zulonas Zbignevas m - Lituania 14.00 L0767
    7 Kari Ahrnberg m PX7061330 Finland 14.00 L0767
    8 Kari Marti m PJ6001465 Finland 14.00 L0767
    9 Timathy Brown m 505009090 Great Britain 14.00 L0767
    10 Richard Moris m 728112125 Great Britain 14.00 L0767
    11 Ach Gabor m AA0280295 Hungary 14.00 L0767
    12 Tamosh Vegvery m AB0065055 Hungary 14.00 L0767
    13 Brendon Presly m 910174096 USA 14.00
    14 Jozef Przhevalskiy m 910168796 USA 14.00
    15 Patrick Jozef McDaniel m DT0016120 Ireland 14.00
    16 Korhan Karakoe m P00017328 Turkey 16.00 TK8818
    17 Ruslan Getman m K4053532 Estonia 20.30 PS055
    18 Raizo Saremat m KB0703280 Estonia 20.30 PS055
    19 Tomashic Erchi m AS6031453 Poland 20.30 PS055
    20 Martin Chervinsky m DD8010889 Poland 20.30 PS055
    21 Tore C. Bade m UK00108679 Norway 20.30 PS055
    22 Hamo Dalevic m 00105634 Norway 20.30 PS055
    23 Ivars Ercums m LS3001193 Latvia 20.30 PS88
    24 Marita Brid-Alex f LS3001201 Latvia 20.30 PS88
    25 James Mackines m DZ008822 Canada 20.30
    26 Pobert Martin m DZ 003733 Canada 20.30
    27 Kolman Richard m 13CD12730 France 20.30 PS055
    28 Pinzhon Du Sel Erac m 13RF57069 France 20.30 PS055
    29 Bruni Walter m D016776 Italy 20.30 PS055
    30 Santarnia Isidoro m SA0037678 Italy 20.30 PS055
    31 Ivan Bela m DI5563744 Slovakia auto
    32 Martin Joskak m DI0580974 Slovakia auto
    33 Jozef Hvoltz m Austria auto
    34 Kim Guldbeh m 450015024 Denmark 9.10 TK465
    35 Henrick Hansen m 206627628 Denmark 9.10 TK465
    36 Bel Ian Williams m DP01DKK31 Netherlands 9.10 TK465
    37 Molen van der Guisebertus m DBND9JD89 Netherlands 9.10 TK465
    38 Ishir Anton m S1008739 Austria 9.10 TK465
    39 Niculasson Acsel m D5102246 Iceland 9.10 TK465
    40 Garcia Arribas m XFA009475 Spain 9.10 TK465
    41 Valliet Doka m BC8170548 Albania 20.40 TK457
    42 Berdify Leonard m BC5301281 Albania 20.40 TK457
    43 Robert Ierubino m 221732260 USA 9.20
    44 Horhe Zilhao m U112894 Portugal 15.00
    45 Rui Firmosinho m U112013 Portugal 15.00
    46 Drago Bitench m PB0479412 Slovenia 15.00
    47 Ales Chenta m PB0668738 Slovenia 15.00
    48 Igor Predovchec m 147004304 Croatia 20.10
    49 Vlasta Brcliachich f 086473714 Croatia 20.10
    50 Ucsel Basaran m 010285 Turkey 9.20
    51 Hans Georg Luber m W119045 Switzerland 11.25
    52 Flavien Shaller m F1595834 Switzerland 11.25
    53 Fedotov Igor m
    54 Ponomarev Vladislav m
    55 Homenko Alexei m
    56 Pliushev Alexei m
    57 Dumler Constantin m
    58 Gorovetsky Alexandr m
    (Note: these names have been translated from Ukrainian into English so the spelling might be incorrect)


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Cyberberkut-864x400_c

    CyberBerkut has published the list of names of western instructors in Ukraine
    flamming_python
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  flamming_python Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:59 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Photos and a report form the jackbooted, goosestepping police state in Odessa:

    Kiev's Witch Hunt Continues: 39 Pro-Russian 'Saboteurs' Arrested in Odessa

    This news is a couple weeks old or so

    And I can't vouch for your earlier photos, but the last one is way old - as I recall they are suspected drug dealers captured by Pravyj Sektor; nothing to do with the recent arrests in Odessa.

    magnumcromagnon wrote:CyberBerkut publishes a list of names of NATO military advisers in Ukraine:

    I heard this was already discussed and discredited on mp.net; their Ukraine thread was very good at getting to the bottom of things.
    But I must have missed the discussion myself

    Perhaps Khepesh can shed some light?
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  sepheronx Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:05 pm

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150422/1021244651.html

    Good on Lavrov.

    @FP who and how did they discredit the list? Simple claims or what?
    macedonian
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  macedonian Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:58 pm

    Things in Ukraine are seriously getting...nevermind:

    RT wrote:A Louis Vuitton dress featured on an Elle magazine cover has caused a scandal in Ukraine, accused of being sponsored by Russian President Putin. Activists say it’s no coincidence that the dress’s colors are those of Russia’s symbol of Victory Day.
    RT Link

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Elle-210

    Didn't know old Louis was a damn Ruskie too. Very Happy
    DanilaMP
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  DanilaMP Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:18 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Previously the fence around the Trade Unions House in Odessa had been painted in colors of Ukraine as a provocation to Odessites, who did not respond. Last night vandals have progressed further in their provocations and destroyed the shrine to the victims of the massacre. Perhaps on a third provocation there will be a reaction, so 2 May could be interesting in Odessa, a spark to start war? I don't know. I would put the link to the article here but cannot yet post links, so need to look at madame_katushki on livejournal

    Or perhaps nothing, and the Odessites and all the other Eastern Ukrainians will continue to bend over and take it up the bum - "we're working people, we have jobs", "it's really not that bad", "main thing is that it's not happening to me and my family", "what Nazis?"... while the Banderites vandalize their monuments, desecrate the memory of their ancestors, beat up people on the street, take pride in brutal murders.. and while the 'government' arrests their relatives, conscripts their sons/brothers/husbands into fighting a fratecidal war, plunges their economy into the abyss, bans or assasinates all the politicians and parties that can represent their interests, takes the entire information space of the country into its grasp, silences dissidents, tries to bar their language from public life, etc..

    My prediction is that the Odessites will do precisely nothing on 2 May

    This..  what is wrong with the people? They should have pulled what donetsk and Lughansk did. Instead they are accepting this upon themselves. F them, hope the rest suffers for their lazyness. Freedom comes to those who deserve and fight for it.

    Are you out of your mind? Do you really think it would be good if ATO encompassed Odessa as well? Do you think it is good when thousands die for some stupidity, to be fair from both sides? I am not going to say anything about DNR, as it seems at least they are trying, but look at LNR, it is almost like a joke, a true banana republic, and the fact that even some Russian volunteers say that some in LNR controlled territory call them, the volunteers, as occupiers etc, already tells you a thing or two. Cant believe that someone would actually advocate war and suffering.

    P.S If memory serves me right, that CyberBerkut list has been refuted as being fake, with a lot of the names on that list having nothing to do with Ukr etc. Ill check if I can find where I read it.
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  sepheronx Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:23 pm

    DanilaMP wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Previously the fence around the Trade Unions House in Odessa had been painted in colors of Ukraine as a provocation to Odessites, who did not respond. Last night vandals have progressed further in their provocations and destroyed the shrine to the victims of the massacre. Perhaps on a third provocation there will be a reaction, so 2 May could be interesting in Odessa, a spark to start war? I don't know. I would put the link to the article here but cannot yet post links, so need to look at madame_katushki on livejournal

    Or perhaps nothing, and the Odessites and all the other Eastern Ukrainians will continue to bend over and take it up the bum - "we're working people, we have jobs", "it's really not that bad", "main thing is that it's not happening to me and my family", "what Nazis?"... while the Banderites vandalize their monuments, desecrate the memory of their ancestors, beat up people on the street, take pride in brutal murders.. and while the 'government' arrests their relatives, conscripts their sons/brothers/husbands into fighting a fratecidal war, plunges their economy into the abyss, bans or assasinates all the politicians and parties that can represent their interests, takes the entire information space of the country into its grasp, silences dissidents, tries to bar their language from public life, etc..

    My prediction is that the Odessites will do precisely nothing on 2 May

    This..  what is wrong with the people? They should have pulled what donetsk and Lughansk did. Instead they are accepting this upon themselves. F them, hope the rest suffers for their lazyness. Freedom comes to those who deserve and fight for it.

    Are you out of your mind? Do you really think it would be good if ATO encompassed Odessa as well? Do you think it is good when thousands die for some stupidity, to be fair from both sides? I am not going to say anything about DNR, as it seems at least they are trying, but look at LNR, it is almost like a joke, a true banana republic, and the fact that even some Russian volunteers say that some in LNR controlled territory call them, the volunteers, as occupiers etc, already tells you a thing or two. Cant believe that someone would actually advocate war and suffering.

    so what do you suggest?  Take it all and allow yourself and family be subjugated to the other extreme?  I have family who died to fight against this very thing in Ukraine.  They should be fighting for their freedom.  Sitting around and then complaining about it will make it their own fault.

    I don't know about LNR that much but DNR is doing what it really is trying to, in order to gain its freedom.  If you are against that, then I suppose you are for the Nazi like treatment from Kiev?  Or do you expect the west to simply one day say "we were wrong"?  Cause that wont happen.

    Yeah, my great grandfather who died for Ukraine would be rolling in his unmarked grave over this.  I suggest you tell the DNR people not to bother fighting cause it is killing their people (the Kiev government actually) and just accept being controlled.

    You are the worst type of people who will lie down and take it.

    Why don't you go over there and tell them they are wrong.  I would love to see that.  I bet your ass would be hanging from a poll pretty quickly.  Because a lot of people are fighting for their rights.  Unless you are blatantly ignoring what the Ukrainian government is doing - killing opposition members and journalists, along with individuals.

    Once again, whos fault is it for the deaths? If you say the Novorussians, we have nothing further to discuss. Cause last I checked, it wasnt Kiev or Lviv getting shelled. Remember the Odessa massacre? Yeah, people sitting complacently allowing that to happen deserve no freedom.
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  sepheronx Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:32 pm

    People who do not defend their rights dont deserve any rights.  So the Odessa massacre happened and people did nothing.  So the people of Odessa and the rest get to suffer.  I mean, Ukraine government must be shining light of an example right Danila?  Killing journalists, opposition members, bombing villages and towns, etc.  All the things that TR1 condemns the Russian government of doing in Chechnya.

    Maybe, just maybe, people in Odessa should go on a protest and protest what is happening. Peaceful, but a protest. Sitting around and waiting to be killed isnt right. See what is happening right now? If you are deemed a Russian, what do you think happens to you? Are you given chocolete and flowers? No.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
    macedonian
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  macedonian Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:39 pm

    Cool it buddy.
    Not everyone is ready to pick up a Kalashnikov and go to war. People have families, kids and other stuff they worry about.
    Besides, in order to start fighting people need to get organized. As an individual in Odessa what would you do? Go ask your neighbor if he's got an extra Kalashnikov you can borrow? It's not as easy as you might think.
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  sepheronx Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:41 pm

    macedonian wrote:Cool it buddy.
    Not everyone is ready to pick up a Kalashnikov and go to war. People have families, kids and other stuff they worry about.
    Besides, in order to start fighting people need to get organized. As an individual in Odessa what would you do? Go ask your neighbor if he's got an extra Kalashnikov you can borrow? It's not as easy as you think.

    I would protest.  I would go out and condemn the Ukrainian government of what they are doing.  I of course would inform people I trust to at least record it so that if I do go missing and never to be found, they would at least have proof.  I have a wife and daughter.  Last thing I want is for them to be labeled as a terrorist or a Russian that would mean instant death or prison.  If I know my life is in danger, I would take as many of those thugs out before I am taken out.  That goes for anywhere I live.

    Ask yourself, how do major wars start? Previous ones where started either with an invasion here or there. Prior, it was a death of an important person. In reality, the more you sit idly, you are helping towards the inevitable. Do I think a major war is on our horizons? Possibly, especially if no one steps up to say no. The people of Novorussia are. Rest are simply scared to do anything. There is no future if you do not FIGHT for it. Simple really. Unless you guys are OK with sitting around to be vaporized because some asshole on another continent is pushing you guys to that very future.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Werewolf Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:46 pm

    macedonian wrote:Cool it buddy.
    Not everyone is ready to pick up a Kalashnikov and go to war. People have families, kids and other stuff they worry about.
    Besides, in order to start fighting people need to get organized. As an individual in Odessa what would you do? Go ask your neighbor if he's got an extra Kalashnikov you can borrow? It's not as easy as you might think.

    That is a good reason to fight, get the family out there ASAP to russia and then fight for what is yours, not cowardly betray your own people that have been slaugthered and scum is running on russian soil today called ukraine. Grandfathers would die of shame if they would see this nazi apologatics and cowardness.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  macedonian Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:48 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I would protest.  I would go out and condemn the Ukrainian government of what they are doing.  I of course would inform people I trust to at least record it so that if I do go missing and never to be found, they would at least have proof.  I have a wife and daughter.  Last thing I want is for them to be labeled as a terrorist or a Russian that would mean instant death or prison.  If I know my life is in danger, I would take as many of those thugs out before I am taken out.  That goes for anywhere I live.

    People did protest. In Mariupol and Odessa, and in other places. That got them killed. Some were even burnt alive.
    So now you have a choice: Go protest and get yourself killed, or hope for something better to come along.
    Many chose the second, and I'm sure they are hoping for things to change every day. Perhaps they hope Russia steps in.
    Perhaps they're waiting for an organized uprising or something...don't know really. But I'm sure no one wants to die in vain and live their family in dire straits.

    Werewolf wrote:That is a good reason to fight, get the family out there ASAP to russia and then fight for what is yours, not cowardly betray your own people that have been slaugthered and scum is running on russian soil today called ukraine. Grandfathers would die of shame if they would see this nazi apologatics and cowardness.

    Easier said than done.
    Odessa is not 100% pro-Russian. I'd love it if it were so, but I don't think it is.
    So, who do you fight? And with what? And how do you get your family to Russia. And where in Russia?
    People don't usually just pack-up leave, unless there's ABSOLUTELY no hope - that's why there are so many civilian casualties in war.


    Last edited by macedonian on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  sepheronx Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:50 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I would protest.  I would go out and condemn the Ukrainian government of what they are doing.  I of course would inform people I trust to at least record it so that if I do go missing and never to be found, they would at least have proof.  I have a wife and daughter.  Last thing I want is for them to be labeled as a terrorist or a Russian that would mean instant death or prison.  If I know my life is in danger, I would take as many of those thugs out before I am taken out.  That goes for anywhere I live.

    People did protest. In Mariupol and Odessa, and in other places. That got them killed. Some were even burnt alive.
    So now you have a choice: Go protest and get yourself killed, or hope for something better to come along.
    Many chose the second, and I'm sure they are hoping for things to change every day. Perhaps they hope Russia steps in.
    Perhaps they're waiting for an organized uprising or something...don't know really. But I'm sure no one wants to die in vain and live their family in dire straits.

    If everyone is waiting for an uprising, who is going to start the uprising? To expect others to do it for you is simply defeatist. They are going to die one day regardless, might as well try to make a better future for their loved ones and children. I guess when Nazi's came in, they should have all just not done anything and let someone else do the fighting for them, while their families are being rounded up and killed anyway, right?

    Yeah....No.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  DanilaMP Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:51 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    DanilaMP wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Previously the fence around the Trade Unions House in Odessa had been painted in colors of Ukraine as a provocation to Odessites, who did not respond. Last night vandals have progressed further in their provocations and destroyed the shrine to the victims of the massacre. Perhaps on a third provocation there will be a reaction, so 2 May could be interesting in Odessa, a spark to start war? I don't know. I would put the link to the article here but cannot yet post links, so need to look at madame_katushki on livejournal

    Or perhaps nothing, and the Odessites and all the other Eastern Ukrainians will continue to bend over and take it up the bum - "we're working people, we have jobs", "it's really not that bad", "main thing is that it's not happening to me and my family", "what Nazis?"... while the Banderites vandalize their monuments, desecrate the memory of their ancestors, beat up people on the street, take pride in brutal murders.. and while the 'government' arrests their relatives, conscripts their sons/brothers/husbands into fighting a fratecidal war, plunges their economy into the abyss, bans or assasinates all the politicians and parties that can represent their interests, takes the entire information space of the country into its grasp, silences dissidents, tries to bar their language from public life, etc..

    My prediction is that the Odessites will do precisely nothing on 2 May

    This..  what is wrong with the people? They should have pulled what donetsk and Lughansk did. Instead they are accepting this upon themselves. F them, hope the rest suffers for their lazyness. Freedom comes to those who deserve and fight for it.

    Are you out of your mind? Do you really think it would be good if ATO encompassed Odessa as well? Do you think it is good when thousands die for some stupidity, to be fair from both sides? I am not going to say anything about DNR, as it seems at least they are trying, but look at LNR, it is almost like a joke, a true banana republic, and the fact that even some Russian volunteers say that some in LNR controlled territory call them, the volunteers, as occupiers etc, already tells you a thing or two. Cant believe that someone would actually advocate war and suffering.

    so what do you suggest?  Take it all and allow yourself and family be subjugated to the other extreme?  I have family who died to fight against this very thing in Ukraine.  They should be fighting for their freedom.  Sitting around and then complaining about it will make it their own fault.

    I don't know about LNR that much but DNR is doing what it really is trying to, in order to gain its freedom.  If you are against that, then I suppose you are for the Nazi like treatment from Kiev?  Or do you expect the west to simply one day say "we were wrong"?  Cause that wont happen.

    Yeah, my great grandfather who died for Ukraine would be rolling in his unmarked grave over this.  I suggest you tell the DNR people not to bother fighting cause it is killing their people (the Kiev government actually) and just accept being controlled.

    You are the worst type of people who will lie down and take it.

    Why don't you go over there and tell them they are wrong.  I would love to see that.  I bet your ass would be hanging from a poll pretty quickly.  Because a lot of people are fighting for their rights.  Unless you are blatantly ignoring what the Ukrainian government is doing - killing opposition members and journalists, along with individuals.

    Once again, whos fault is it for the deaths?  If you say the Novorussians, we have nothing further to discuss.  Cause last I checked, it wasnt Kiev or Lviv getting shelled.  Remember the Odessa massacre?  Yeah, people sitting complacently allowing that to happen deserve no freedom.

    First of all I suggest you stop letting your emotions blind you to the point where you advocate war and everything that it brings.

    Second of all, you are not the only one, especially on this forum who have lost relatives during GPW or had relatives fighting for survival.

    And let me elaborate, since it looks like your reading comprehension hasn't improved over the years. I think that DNR is trying to build a state, they are doing what can be considered the best under such dire circumstances. When it comes to LNR, you should read a bit about the betrayal of the Cossacks, the whole "Betman" issue, and further on about Plotnitsky. Since your emotional moaning, I doubt you even have the slightest clue. While you start your research I recommend watching a video with the leader of the Ekaterinburg volunteers who just came back for rotation, and listen closely to what he says about LNR.

    And a bit further down the line, you start claiming things, that I never uttered, I feel that if you feel so strongly for the plight of Odessa, why dont you head down there and lend them a hand in battling New Kiev? A short summary of what Odessa, it is a country on its own, it was always a special place even during SU. Its multi-ethnic composition and being the capital of OC in SU, being called Odessa Mama, I doubt you have a clue of how those elements position them self to any authority.

    The fault for the Donbass tragedy lies not only on the Kiev and their sponsors, but also on the RF side for not getting hands deep in to the issue, sanctions being a non-issue, since they would have been imposed on RF without Donbass, it was a plan all along, but RF refused to play hard, for what reasons are hard to say, since I guess a lot of back door deals were made with the opposing faction (US-EU if you want to call a spade for a spade), but the issue could have been averted if RF pressed New Kiev to such a degree that New Kiev would have had no option but to agree even if it cost all the clowns in power right now their political life.

    Anyway, I think you are basing a lot of your statements on emotion rather than your grey matter, so a further discussion can either be hopeless for me or educational for you. That is solely your choice.

    Its 10 to 12 here, and I got something called a job, so Ill give you time to contemplate a reaction, and see the outcome of your choice tomorrow.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:54 pm

    Really Danila? What did I misread? Why not go through my entire post and re-read. If anyone who has poor reading comprehension skills, it is yourself.  Yeah, let people be rolled over by Nazi's from Kiev.  Good idea.  Have fun at your job because I came back from mine (a good job that requires good reading comprehension skills).  I really don't give a shit about what LNR is doing, like I mentioned prior, but I am talking about Odessa, and it seems there are people in LNR who are still fighting for their rights too, regardless what a few volunteers are saying.  If it wasn't the case, there wouldn't be an LNR at the moment.

    And I see that you have not changed either.  You divulge into insults because you sounded like an idiot and was called out on it.

    Edit: Like Werewolf said, before being a jerk about things, be here for a little while, OK champ?
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    Post  Rodinazombie Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:04 am

    you know what?

    Even if everyone east and south of kiev had risen against the regime, they still wouldnt have won the war, because there isnt the desire in moscow for that to happen. Putin got what he wanted in crimea and thats all.  Wishing that the civil war would spread to other areas would simply be signing the death warrants of thousands of people for nothing. Putin should have gone in last summer when the ukies started usimg artillery against civilian areas in slavyansk, destroyed the enemy and removed the nutjobs from kiev.

    He couldnt have been vilified or 'sanctioned' any further if he had done that than what he is now.

    Back to the odessites, I do wish they would rise up and protest against the regime, to show the world how they already feel, but again, theyve already done that and look what happened. Take kharkov last year for example, the marches there were tens of thousands strong. Then the ukies arrested everyone in sight, sbu is busy purging the city and 'uberpatriots' are giving friendly visits yo anyone suspected of being a vatnik. I can understand them doing little after whats happened previously but after a while i start to kinda think they get what they deserve by doing nothing.

    But wheres that 'russian' fighting spirit? Being treated like that should harden their resolve and will to resist, yet they just continue to bend over and take it.


    Last edited by Rodinazombie on Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:05 am

    I agree with sepheronx, there are times when you must fight and there is no alternative; even if you have a job, if you have a family, etc... especially if you have a family in fact.. you must do it.

    Look at where their passivity brought them. Now even their monuments to their dead are being desecrated by the same fascist hooligans who murdered them, and who are laughing their ass off at the local 'pacifists', and exchanging jokes about all the 'fried Colorados' they cooked up last May.
    They're only going to get more bold. They'll push, they'll dare the locals to hit back, and when they don't - and they know they won't, they'll go further still.

    The easiest way for me to answer the question about Odessa and other 'passive' regions is simply to question whether here, in St. Petersburg, and in other Russian cities - these same Banderites would be tolerated for even a second.

    The only conclusion I can come to, is that if these Banderites did were effectively the state-sponsored vigilantees here, backed up by a security service that openly declares that it wants to model itself after WW2 Nazi collaborators, and these Banderites tried to do anything at all here.. well, the only thing I can imagine is that the entire city will rise up overnight and kill this group of bloody scum, and openly revolt against the government.
    I can't imagine the same thing being tolerated in any Russian city as what is being tolerated in the cities of eastern Ukraine - even for a day. There is simply no way these Banderites would be allowed to continue to breathing if Odessa was a Russian city.

    Sevastopol is a prime example of a 'Russian' city and how it behaves. They rose up immediately and were already taking up arms as soon as the first smell of Banderites reached the peninsula.

    Which does confuse me; seeing as the people of Odessa and the people of Russia are effectively one and the same.

    What the hell has happened to them?


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:16 am; edited 2 times in total
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:08 am

    Rodinazombie wrote:you know what?

    Even if everyone east and south of kiev had risen against the regime, they still wouldnt have won the war, because there isnt the desire in moscow for that to happen. Putin got what he wanted in crimea and thats all.  Wishing that the civil war would spread to other areas would simply be signing the death warrants of thousands of people for nothing. Putin should have gone in last summer when the ukies started usimg artillery against civilian areas in slavyansk, destroyed the enemy and removed the nutjobs from kiev.

    He couldnt have been vilified or 'sanctioned' any further if he had done that than what he is now.

    Back to the odessites, I do wish they would rise up and protest against the regime, to show the world how they already feel, but again, theyve already done that and look what happened. Take kharkov last year for example, the marches there were tens of thousands strong. Then the ukies arrested everyone in sight, sbu is busy purging the city and 'uberpatriots' are giving friendly visits yo anyone suspected of being a vatnik. I really cant blame them for doing little, but after a while i start to kinda think they get what they deserve by doing nothing.

    One cannot expect to be supported to simply rise and revolt.  It may be nice to obtain assistance but in the end, you may have to go it alone.  A lot will die but there is always a chance, and Kiev has proven countless of times they are almost incapable of fighting.

    The question is, with all the people being purged or arrested, what will happen eventually? People will remember this for quite some time. Maybe by then Porkyshenko and Ratsenyuk will have stolen what they could and flee.
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    Post  Rodinazombie Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:23 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Rodinazombie wrote:you know what?

    Even if everyone east and south of kiev had risen against the regime, they still wouldnt have won the war, because there isnt the desire in moscow for that to happen. Putin got what he wanted in crimea and thats all.  Wishing that the civil war would spread to other areas would simply be signing the death warrants of thousands of people for nothing. Putin should have gone in last summer when the ukies started usimg artillery against civilian areas in slavyansk, destroyed the enemy and removed the nutjobs from kiev.

    He couldnt have been vilified or 'sanctioned' any further if he had done that than what he is now.

    Back to the odessites, I do wish they would rise up and protest against the regime, to show the world how they already feel, but again, theyve already done that and look what happened. Take kharkov last year for example, the marches there were tens of thousands strong. Then the ukies arrested everyone in sight, sbu is busy purging the city and 'uberpatriots' are giving friendly visits yo anyone suspected of being a vatnik. I really cant blame them for doing little, but after a while i start to kinda think they get what they deserve by doing nothing.

    One cannot expect to be supported to simply rise and revolt.  It may be nice to obtain assistance but in the end, you may have to go it alone.  A lot will die but there is always a chance, and Kiev has proven countless of times they are almost incapable of fighting.

    The question is, with all the people being purged or arrested, what will happen eventually?  People will remember this for quite some time.  Maybe by then Porkyshenko and Ratsenyuk will have stolen what they could and flee.

    You are right, unless you stand up for yourself, nobody will do it for you.

    What will happen eventually? Difficult question, i dont subcribe to the view that ukraine is going to keep falling into the abyss, i think they will hit bottom soon and then will start to recover or at worst stagnate for a while. The recovery will take a long time, but i dont see a doomsday scenario for kiev like many wish for.

    As for the people, well, if they arent responding to their treatment now, i doubt they will do anything later as and when the situation improves. Though the ones who were actually engaged in violence or murder i think will end up disappearing over the next few years. There will be payback to some extent im sure.

    I also think in a few years time yatsenyuk will be living abroad with an arrest warrant out for him back home, with turchinov and possibly poroshenko too.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:30 am

    Rodinazombie wrote:you know what?

    Even if everyone east and south of kiev had risen against the regime, they still wouldnt have won the war, because there isnt the desire in moscow for that to happen. Putin got what he wanted in crimea and thats all.  Wishing that the civil war would spread to other areas would simply be signing the death warrants of thousands of people for nothing. Putin should have gone in last summer when the ukies started usimg artillery against civilian areas in slavyansk, destroyed the enemy and removed the nutjobs from kiev.

    If everyone east and south of Kiev had rissen against the unconstitutional coup, and organized as they planned to; half the army would have gone with them and there wouldn't be any war.

    Lugansk and Donetsk eventually went it alone - and the eastern and southern regions didn't just not support them - they betrayed them.
    Those same eastern and southern regions didn't exactly escape the war - they entered it anyway, and picked up their weapons - only for the wrong side. Some voluntarily, some not - doesn't matter really.
    And now eastern Ukrainians are killing eastern Ukrainians, while the central and western Ukrainians laugh at the gullible fools.

    The eastern Ukrainians are not only passive, they are also fighting themselves, and for their own destruction.
    It is their regions that are collapsing the most from the economic degredation.
    It is their war-heroes that are being pushed out of Ukraine's new history textbooks and 'victory' commemorations.
    It is their native language, which is marked as the tongue of the Soviet/Russian occupiers, and marked for replacement by the politically-correct Ukrainian tongue in every facet of Ukrainian statehood and society.
    It is their political parties that have been barred from parliament, their presidents that have been ousted illegally from power, and their MPs and journalists that have been arrested, beaten or murdered.
    It is their sons/brothers/fathers that are being conscripted to fight their neighbours.

    These insufferable fools.

    But wheres that 'russian' fighting spirit? Being treated like that should harden their resolve and will to resist, yet they just continue to bend over and take it.

    "We're working people, we just want to get on with our lives"
    "It's all Putin's fault!"
    "Russia doesn't need us anyway"
    "We just want to be left alone!"
    "What's the difference between the rebels and the government anyway?"
    "I don't see any fascists around here"
    "We live just fine"

    There's your Russian fighting spirit, of 'hero city' Odessa.

    Russia proper won't react in this way though. I pray I'm correct, in any case.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Firebird

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 19 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Firebird Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:32 am

    flamming_python wrote:I agree with sepheronx, there are times when you must fight and there is no alternative; even if you have a job, if you have a family, etc... especially if you have a family in fact.. you must do it.

    Look at where their passivity brought them. Now even their monuments to their dead are being desecrated by the same fascist hooligans who murdered them, and who are laughing their ass off at the local 'pacifists', and exchanging jokes about all the 'fried Colorados' they cooked up last May.
    They're only going to get more bold. They'll push, they'll dare the locals to hit back, and when they don't - and they know they won't, they'll go further still.

    The easiest way for me to answer the question about Odessa and other 'passive' regions is simply to question whether here, in St. Petersburg, and in other Russian cities - these same Banderites would be tolerated for even a second.

    The only conclusion I can come to, is that if these Banderites did were effectively the state-sponsored vigilantees here, backed up by a security service that openly declares that it wants to model itself after WW2 Nazi collaborators, and these Banderites tried to do anything at all here.. well, the only thing I can imagine is that the entire city will rise up overnight and kill this group of bloody scum, and openly revolt against the government.
    I can't imagine the same thing being tolerated in any Russian city as what is being tolerated in the cities of eastern Ukraine - even for a day. There is simply no way these Banderites would be allowed to continue to breathing if Odessa was a Russian city.

    Sevastopol is a prime example of a 'Russian' city and how it behaves. They rose up immediately and were already taking up arms as soon as the first smell of Banderites reached the peninsula.

    Which does confuse me; seeing as the people of Odessa and the people of Russia are effectively one and the same.

    What the hell has happened to them?

    I was very baffled as to why Putin didn't intervene. But the arguments are multiple

    1)If Russia DID intervene, where does it draw the border? Even in bits of the S Eastern former Ukraine, there are anti Russian groups. Not many but they have the propensity to commit guerilla style bullshit against Russian troops and Ru/pro Ru civillians.

    2)If stauncher pro Russian parts of the Ukr region are pulled out, then there is no longer an influence over the Central and Western areas. Infact pro Russians left in Ukr areas can then become a persecuted minority.

    3)If Russia bombs certain areas, it might create anti Russian feeling amongst the more undecided/neutral people in the Ukr region.

    Ultimately Lug and Donetsk rose up because these were the easiest to support a popular uprising. Many fighters are from Kharkov, especially Odessa and other places in the former Ukraine. It makes sense to concentrate your forces effectively, fight one battle at a time.

    Having said all that, I am still very confused by some of it. Putin has been Russian President/PM for a long time. How did the Ukraine area become such a mess? How did scum like the Yanks manage to do what they did? It wasn't subtle of them. So who was duped and how?

    Perhaps Putin is being too laid back now, re the Ukraine. AND re the geographic aspect of the strategic mil rivalry between Ru and the US. Why does Russia have its arms all around Russia. But Russia doesn't even have a little base in Cuba that has a clear level of Russian muscle flexing?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:44 am

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1274755.html

    Thermobaric warhead Kornets used in Ukraine.

    I wonder where they came from.
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    etaepsilonk

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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:55 am

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1274755.html

    Thermobaric warhead Kornets used in Ukraine.

    I wonder where they came from.

    Seriously man, you still worrying 'bout some freakin' kornets? Wink
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:02 am

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1274755.html

    Thermobaric warhead Kornets used in Ukraine.

    I wonder where they came from.

    Here we go again, the hypocrite that condemns russias actions for survival, but no word of NATO terrorism. Rolling Eyes
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:05 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1274755.html

    Thermobaric warhead Kornets used in Ukraine.

    I wonder where they came from.

    Seriously man, you still worrying 'bout some freakin' kornets? Wink

    I'm not worrying about anything, just posting info.

    Is that video legit? I had not seen it yet.


    If legit...wow.
    Brazen and no sense of obfuscation.

    Sponsored content

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