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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:58 am

    Wikipedia is long under the hands of Western propagandists. They edit everything that is military, history or political of relevance to tell their propaganda stories, but it is indeed sad to see that todays era of information majority of people are centralized by lobbyism of google, wikipedia, youtube in exact those spots so a centralized society on only handful of sources can be controlled the most effective way. We need decentralization of information and to call such garbage sources for what they are propaganda tools and nothing more.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:05 am

    Werewolf wrote:Wikipedia is long under the hands of Western propagandists. They edit everything that is military, history or political of relevance to tell their propaganda stories, but it is indeed sad to see that todays era of information majority of people are centralized by lobbyism of google, wikipedia, youtube in exact those spots so a centralized society on only handful of sources can be controlled the most effective way. We need decentralization of information and to call such garbage sources for what they are propaganda tools and nothing more.

    Problem with wiki is anyone can make adjustments and it isn't fault of the owners. As well, wiki's software is completely open source meaning that anyone of us can use its software to start our own wiki on anything really. As well, you can always read the variations of languages on the site, as I noticed the .Ru or .fr will have different information. The pages get edited a lot.

    I remember not long ago some people kept trolling wiki by changing Super Mario's description to something else.

    Heck, hosting our own and using references from various websites, we can make our own to use as an indexing structure. We are working on one for our intranet at work using SharePoint.
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:27 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Wikipedia is long under the hands of Western propagandists. They edit everything that is military, history or political of relevance to tell their propaganda stories, but it is indeed sad to see that todays era of information majority of people are centralized by lobbyism of google, wikipedia, youtube in exact those spots so a centralized society on only handful of sources can be controlled the most effective way. We need decentralization of information and to call such garbage sources for what they are propaganda tools and nothing more.

    Problem with wiki is anyone can make adjustments and it isn't fault of the owners. As well, wiki's software is completely open source meaning that anyone of us can use its software to start our own wiki on anything really. As well, you can always read the variations of languages on the site, as I noticed the .Ru or .fr will have different information. The pages get edited a lot.

    I remember not long ago some people kept trolling wiki by changing Super Mario's description to something else.

    Heck, hosting our own and using references from various websites, we can make our own to use as an indexing structure. We are working on one for our intranet at work using SharePoint.

    If you had visited wikipedia discussion sector to different topics you would know that it is not that easy to change things. People have bought themselfs admin rights to edit different subjects of their lobbyist sector. I've followed some of the discussions and have seen a few who have made a reportage about the lobbyism on wikipedia from our car industry and political lobbyism. There are different lobbyists that change articles on wikipedia, they usually tend to just try to change things as long they stay edited in their favor and not steer up sceptics they leave it like that, but some subjects are not kept edited for long and then they start doing an entire campaign. They hire some people with several accounts that do argumentation of the discussed subject for both sides (the same people) they discuss with their double accounts back and forth trying to make it look like a healthy discussions while after a while when the actual people that did not like this edition of the lobbyists make good arguments, the lobbyists start to use their double accounts which have discussed in favor of the "contras" start to make blatant claims ridiculing slowly but steady their argumentation side for the entire purpose that the discussion leads to the ultimate goal that their change and editing of articles becames legit and will be established. Mercedez as an example has lobbied that way after articles on wikipedia occured with statements and accusations of Mercedes involvement of the car industry and laws for foreign car manufactorers, when Mercedes lobbied for more strict laws for fuel consumption which was no big deal for Mercedes since they already developed such engines, but for the constantly growing market of asian cars here in germany they did not won't nor could they compete with them in price so they lobbied them out (slowed their sales) for a few years untill they managed to match the fuel consumption that was required.


    If you try to edit something irrelevant which is not uptodate than it will stay there quite long, but when you right away to Donbass war site and try to edit things you will rise an army of internet worriors against you, this is an old story wikipedia is occupied by agents and paid internet worriors, same as google and youtube lobbying out and trying to slow down bandwidth and streams of some channels or right out close channels like News ANNA was closed 3 freaking times each time with ridiculous claims like "Copyright abusement" while non of News Anna's videos was ever made by anyone else but their own journalists or the recent one closed for "missleading advertisement" they never had spots or advertisement for anything. Those sides are infiltrated with agents fighting the information war, you can't do anything if you don't have the money, the resources and the knowledge to fight this information war. Just look at RT channel on YT, since February 2014 there are over 98 accounts from just a handfull people that are posting every day to each other and liking each others comments and blaming russia,putin and smearing shit against muslims as long it even barely scratches the ME or European Unions problems.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:41 am

    Maybe we should try to start an openwiki project.

    I remember Reddit did a study a while ago of the insurgent rise in anti Russian rhetorics and found many of the postings were coming from an airforce base in Florida. So I suppose you are right. But this just gives incentive to others whom would be interested in setting up an alternative to Wiki, youtube, etc.
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:19 am

    sepheronx wrote:Maybe we should try to start an openwiki project.

    I remember Reddit did a study a while ago of the insurgent rise in anti Russian rhetorics and found many of the postings were coming from an airforce base in Florida.  So I suppose you are right.  But this just gives incentive to others whom would be interested in setting up an alternative to Wiki, youtube, etc.


    Like i said such projects can only be effective with hardcore lobbyism to push something alternative to a very broad audience that would rival youtube,google and wikipedia that is nothing anyone here can finance that is a matter for governments or private rich people or NGO funds. The only thing we can do is to reveal to a very small audience how this informational war is fought. I am not just right on this part things were published about GCHQ of british internet information war and their methods this was posted here months ago.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:25 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Maybe we should try to start an openwiki project.

    I remember Reddit did a study a while ago of the insurgent rise in anti Russian rhetorics and found many of the postings were coming from an airforce base in Florida.  So I suppose you are right.  But this just gives incentive to others whom would be interested in setting up an alternative to Wiki, youtube, etc.


    Like i said such projects can only be effective with hardcore lobbyism to push something alternative to a very broad audience that would rival youtube,google and wikipedia that is nothing anyone here can finance that is a matter for governments or private rich people or NGO funds. The only thing we can do is to reveal to a very small audience how this informational war is fought. I am not just right on this part things were published about GCHQ of british internet information war and their methods this was posted here months ago.

    Too bad we are not wealthy enough to start our own NGO to work on such projects. Would be plenty of fun and a good method of dealing with the disinformation.
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:30 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Maybe we should try to start an openwiki project.

    I remember Reddit did a study a while ago of the insurgent rise in anti Russian rhetorics and found many of the postings were coming from an airforce base in Florida.  So I suppose you are right.  But this just gives incentive to others whom would be interested in setting up an alternative to Wiki, youtube, etc.


    Like i said such projects can only be effective with hardcore lobbyism to push something alternative to a very broad audience that would rival youtube,google and wikipedia that is nothing anyone here can finance that is a matter for governments or private rich people or NGO funds. The only thing we can do is to reveal to a very small audience how this informational war is fought. I am not just right on this part things were published about GCHQ of british internet information war and their methods this was posted here months ago.

    Too bad we are not wealthy enough to start our own NGO to work on such projects.  Would be plenty of fun and a good method of dealing with the disinformation.

    You could try making a fundraiser, Gofundme or something.

    A lot of people surf this site. They might be interested in donating for a detailed and unbiased compendium of knowledge.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:46 am

    2SPOOKY4U wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Maybe we should try to start an openwiki project.

    I remember Reddit did a study a while ago of the insurgent rise in anti Russian rhetorics and found many of the postings were coming from an airforce base in Florida.  So I suppose you are right.  But this just gives incentive to others whom would be interested in setting up an alternative to Wiki, youtube, etc.


    Like i said such projects can only be effective with hardcore lobbyism to push something alternative to a very broad audience that would rival youtube,google and wikipedia that is nothing anyone here can finance that is a matter for governments or private rich people or NGO funds. The only thing we can do is to reveal to a very small audience how this informational war is fought. I am not just right on this part things were published about GCHQ of british internet information war and their methods this was posted here months ago.

    Too bad we are not wealthy enough to start our own NGO to work on such projects.  Would be plenty of fun and a good method of dealing with the disinformation.

    You could try making a fundraiser, Gofundme or something.

    A lot of people surf this site. They might be interested in donating for a detailed and unbiased compendium of knowledge.

    The problem isn't making it, as I used to make quite a few websites in the past for various purposes.  These days, I let my wife do it because she is far better at it than I am.  Only issues are obtaining the servers if not building my own and running them, then getting the dedicated network link, then there are issues of the CRTC possibly removing whatever work I do or shutting me down due to the fact they are owned by the government and if I do not tow the line, I am in trouble.  So I would have to host the site in a country where they are more or less neutral on the issue.  Maybe Vietnam.

    It is all about obtaining the funds to promote it.  I suppose starting a twitter account and a facebook account will help.  Since it is just a thought up thing, I need to do more research.

    Edit: It would be more efficient and useful to simply start up a site similar to zerohedge but create additional sections like a wiki and video section.
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:20 am

    Novorossia, Easter Day

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 14682_943086839065142_1256941368867765627_n
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    2SPOOKY4U
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:26 am

    TR1 wrote:
    2SPOOKY4U wrote:

    You're right, I really can't get it out of my head, it's in my blood. Afterall, my mother's family is from East Germany.

    And now you defend a man whose past job was to keep tabs on your family to make sure they were good little communist slaves.

    Lmao. It all makes sense now. Stockholm syndrome.

    Not really, I am not defending Putin. I don't think he is a saint and I think he is quite lazy in terms of his economic policies. He could be doing so much more in terms of boosting growth.

    And don't reply with some quip about he is making the economic situation worse, he has pushed for domestic manufacturing, increased wages for teachers, boosted the GDP etc.

    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=112&v=yC66K12eAq0

    About as smoking gun as you can get.

    Buryats are now illegal in Eastern Ukraine? Ok.

    TR1 wrote:T-72B3s don't lie.

    Neither do the rebels and Russian military personel who have made it all but clear that the Russian army came in to do the fighting in several major engagements.


    You're right, T-72B3s don't lie, tanks can't talk. But pictures/people do.

    TR1 wrote:Cold hard facts > mental gymnastics (not yours) of some of the members here.

    Cold hard facts can't beat my multiple somersault mid-air pretzel fallacy strawman circular logic bullshit maneuver.

    TR1 wrote:Khlopotov, Mokrushin, Fofanov >>>> anonymous anti-semetic (don't you love how they randomly bring Jews into everything?) tards on this cesspool of a thread.

    [sarcasm]My name is Hdolf Aitler, and I am no tard, I can do multi-quotes. Very Happy [/sarcasm]

    TR1 wrote:They were many kilometers inside Ukrainian territory. It was NOT a case of "500 meter" violation.

    Plus, given what was going on, you expect me to believe they just blundered in?

    Please They knew exactly where they were.

    How do you know, where were they captured?

    You would be surprised at what can happen with misnavigation.

    During the 1999 Kosovo campaign, a bomb intended for Serbia landed inside Bulgaria, 40 km inside the border.

    TR1 wrote:That is funny, since you intellectual midgets stooped to insults RIGHT away when all I had done is only posted photos of equipment.

    But thanks for admitting you lost the argument.

    Why would a midget need to stoop?

    In all seriousness, I disagree with people using insults without arguments. You do not deserve it.

    TR1, I don't want you to think of this as an arguement, more of a discussion between individuals with different opinions.

    We should try to find the truth, not bicker. I don't want this forum to polarize into left and right, lest we become mp.net or worse f-16.net
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    Post  darking Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:05 am



    The problem isn't making it, as I used to make quite a few websites in the past for various purposes.  These days, I let my wife do it because she is far better at it than I am.  Only issues are obtaining the servers if not building my own and running them, then getting the dedicated network link, then there are issues of the CRTC possibly removing whatever work I do or shutting me down due to the fact they are owned by the government and if I do not tow the line, I am in trouble.  So I would have to host the site in a country where they are more or less neutral on the issue.  Maybe Vietnam.

    It is all about obtaining the funds to promote it.  I suppose starting a twitter account and a facebook account will help.  Since it is just a thought up thing, I need to do more research.

    Edit: It would be more efficient and useful to simply start up a site similar to zerohedge but create additional sections like a wiki and video section.

    In Vietnam, too many American Idol. We are struggling against it.
    They proved to be very crowded and dangerous. welcome
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:09 am

    darking wrote:


    The problem isn't making it, as I used to make quite a few websites in the past for various purposes.  These days, I let my wife do it because she is far better at it than I am.  Only issues are obtaining the servers if not building my own and running them, then getting the dedicated network link, then there are issues of the CRTC possibly removing whatever work I do or shutting me down due to the fact they are owned by the government and if I do not tow the line, I am in trouble.  So I would have to host the site in a country where they are more or less neutral on the issue.  Maybe Vietnam.

    It is all about obtaining the funds to promote it.  I suppose starting a twitter account and a facebook account will help.  Since it is just a thought up thing, I need to do more research.

    Edit: It would be more efficient and useful to simply start up a site similar to zerohedge but create additional sections like a wiki and video section.

    In Vietnam, too many American Idol. We are struggling against it.
    They proved to be very crowded and dangerous. welcome

    You guys seem to do quite well in dealing with them though. You don't seem to have the 5th coloumnists like Russia does. I imagine you do, but probably not to same extent. Add to that Vietnam does a good job of banning radio and tv transmissions that are anti communist or anti vietnam like Radio Free Asia.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:19 am

    sepheronx wrote:You guys seem to do quite well in dealing with them though.  You don't seem to have the 5th coloumnists like Russia does.  I imagine you do, but probably not to same extent.  Add to that Vietnam does a good job of banning radio and tv transmissions that are anti communist or anti vietnam like Radio Free Asia.

    The problem is in our coutries there is a great number of "journalists" who are extremely ignorant about Russian topics but usually write about Russia Shocked they know nothing of Russia but they usually write articles about Russia Shocked of course they used Western propaganda source and as a result there is a lot of bad articles about Russia in Vietnam...

    The 5th columnists also try to link Russia with China and they blabbers bullshit about Russia help China invade Vietnam lol1  lol1  lol1  lol1 and the bad thing is that a number of people believe in that bullshit. No

    Very few Vietnamese can use Russian language and that put us in a very disadvantage position.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:21 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You guys seem to do quite well in dealing with them though.  You don't seem to have the 5th coloumnists like Russia does.  I imagine you do, but probably not to same extent.  Add to that Vietnam does a good job of banning radio and tv transmissions that are anti communist or anti vietnam like Radio Free Asia.

    The problem is in our coutries there is a great number of "journalists" who are extremely ignorant about Russian topics but usually write about Russia Shocked they know nothing of Russia but they usually write articles about Russia Shocked of course they used Western propaganda source and as a result there is a lot of bad articles about Russia in Vietnam...

    The 5th columnists also try to link Russia with China and they blabbers bullshit about Russia help China invade Vietnam lol1  lol1  lol1  lol1 and the bad thing is that a number of people believe in that bullshit. No

    Very few Vietnamese can use Russian language and that put us in a very disadvantage position.

    Well, guess it is the job of the Vietnamese to counter these journalists by exposing them and asking them questions.  Find out where they get their information from and what not.  I don't think Vietnamese people are dumb enough to believe all of it.  Your government seems to have different viewpoints and most vietnamese I met seem to have a different opinion.  But that is just anecdotal evidence.

    Wonder if RT and Sputnik will operate in Vietnamese?  Not sure why people would listen to what westerners, especially what US say, since you know, after all, they committed atrocities in your country not that long ago.  But I cant deny that there is probably a lot of influence from the South Vietnamese that operate in Vietnam who still have ties to the US.

    Edit: I see that Sputnik already operates in Vietnam. I wonder how long till other sources will? Does RT? Would be cool if they had an office there. Maybe others like Tass and what not.
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    Post  darking Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:32 am

    When conflicts occur in Ukraine
    in Vietnam, although the highest management agency press the Central Propaganda Department issued a directive is not quoted, comments under the Western media, attention exploit mainstream news from the Russian newspaper . But there are many articles left command.
    We, who love peace, have a hard time when trying to expose the truth in Ucaraina for people to understand.
    If you know Vietnamese, please see the image written guidance here:
    htt....//fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1779762_625419454213406_597355835_n.jpg?oh=23e13d7a18ff2fc6cdf4dede2e37ce8e&oe=5599C134&__gda__=1436301781_7c5ba5901a5a7042276300fa064ba1e8
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:40 am

    darking wrote:When conflicts occur in Ukraine
    in Vietnam, although the highest management agency press the Central Propaganda Department issued a directive is not quoted, comments under the Western media, attention exploit mainstream news from the Russian newspaper . But there are many articles left command.
    We, who love peace, have a hard time when trying to expose the truth in Ucaraina for people to understand.
    If you know Vietnamese, please see the image written guidance here:
    htt....//fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1779762_625419454213406_597355835_n.jpg?oh=23e13d7a18ff2fc6cdf4dede2e37ce8e&oe=5599C134&__gda__=1436301781_7c5ba5901a5a7042276300fa064ba1e8

    Could you please translate it for me?  Sorry, I don't speak the language.  I suck at english as it is (and its my main language).

    Edit: You know, it would probably be both profitable and beneficial if Vietnam opened a Russian HQ in Moscow or something and offered to do news coverage their. Like CNN, RT, and so many others do. They rake in money in advertisements and sponsorships.
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 am

    @serephonx: Rough translation Very Happy

    1) We must help the Party member, goverment officer, and the People to know and understand the truth and objective information about the situation in Ukraina.

    2) We must help the people, the Party member and our goverment officer to understand the reason of all these events in Ukraine, including the sabotage activities of Western powers.

    3) Improve the economy and society and living standard, guarantee the employment, welfare, income, fix the inconsistene in salaries, welfare.

    4) Guarantee the principles of human rights in Vietnam's Constitution.

    5) Carry out the guidance in Resolution 28-NQ/TW of Central Commitee of the Communist Party about protection of the Motherland in new situation.

    6) Increase the "immunity" of the Party member and the People against the "Peaceful Evolution" of the enemies.

    7) Our mass media must objectively and honestly describe the situation in Ukraina. Our mass media should not simply copy or mimic the arguments of Western media, and should not ignore the information of Russian media.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:08 am

    That is good. They specifically said to be objective. They should also provide links to various other sites. Maybe official OSCE and such.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:11 am

    As predicted, looks like there was no Russian subs invading Swedish waters:

    Sweden confirms mystery ‘Russian sub’…was in fact a workboat

    It was nothing more than a ridiculous ploy to justify a increase in Swedish defense spending...mission accomplished!
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    Post  darking Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:17 am



    Could you please translate it for me?  Sorry, I don't speak the language.  I suck at english as it is (and its my main language).

    Edit: You know, it would probably be both profitable and beneficial if Vietnam opened a Russian HQ in Moscow or something and offered to do news coverage their.  Like CNN, RT, and so many others do.  They rake in money in advertisements and sponsorships.

    V. On the propagation direction
    1. Propaganda contribute to staff, members and the strata to understand the situation of political upheaval - society took place in Ukrainian  today objectivity, honesty
    2. To assist the officers, members and people understand the causes of fluctuations, political and social, including multi-party problems and agitation, against of the Western countrys
    .....
    8. The mass media agencies reported honest and objective about the situation of Ukraine. No copy, no comment following the allegations of the Western media. Note extraction of information from the media mainstream press of the Russian Federation
    avatar
    Vann7


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Vann7 Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:12 am

    The problem with TR1 is that he have his Right and wrong Meter.. completely inverted.

    He saw Nothing wrong with Kiev ,criminal war in eastern Ukraine.. he NEVER complained
    not even a single time of the bombing of civilians ,women and children.. schools , Hospitals.
    and the very well documented Fact that civilians are being killed not because they are in the line
    of Fire.. but because they are Pro Russia.. and the CIAnazis bomb eastern ukraine civilians to provoke RUssia to invade.  So desperate are TR1 lovely Fascist that they began to bomb Russian
    cities right across the border and later began to deny ,they did it.

    So TR1 never complains about the wrongs.. instead what he have done.. is complain
    about "Russia Invasion" , "Russia aggression" and Russia interference in a "sovereign nation"
    Yet he never complained about the overthrowing of a democratic elected government with violence by his lovely "Freedom nation" USA.

    TR1's .likes to ignore ,that Russia gave the chechens FULL AUTONOMY ,with full language and
    and they are treaty as equals ,like any other RUssian citizen. this is very different to what
    Kiev is doing with the Pro RUssian cities.. That is complete repression ,complete censoring of the media , and beating and burning alive Russian people who protest.. and when they take guns to
    protect their lives , they use their army to bomb them.

    And 10 young border guards ,that do not resist arrest ,is far from an Army.. where are his tanks? Why Kiev does not showed the world the tanks they captured from them?  Because there were none.. What kind of "invasion" is that.. that the soldiers do not have tanks ,neither heavy weapons and do not resist arrest?

    The T-72 tanks you have posted have been debunked.. you first told Ukraine didn't have them..
    but now you change your story and focus only in the B3's.. The videos of T-72s according to
    Graham are captured tanks by Rebels and they do have the double white lines that Ukraine army always use..  So TR1 theory is that the rebels had it.. then kiev captured it..then marked it with double white lines ,then send it to the front line again.. (instead of transporting them to kiev as Irrefutable evidence of Russian invasion) but guess what.? then the rebels capture back the tanks again.. Laughing

    If you look at TR1 100% post , in Ukraine conflict.. they are NEVER to condemn the Genocide
    of civilians there.. but to convince us.. of "Russian Aggression " RUssian Invasion" and "Russian
    interference" in a "sovereign nation" .  Thats his main mission.. But i bet no one will find any post of TR1 complaining about civilians killed in Ukraine.. he only complains about 90s..
    his lovely  chechens killed by Russian army.. that took weapons ,and tried to take the territory not by referendum as novorosiya did it.. but by killing Russian soldiers..  

    Who will want to promote the take over of their nation historical legitimate naval base and condemn their nation for defending its nation security under a major threat for US capturing a nation with Violence in a coup ,at their borders ,and installing a very hostile faction in Power to ethnic Russians. And never see anything wrong with the Thousands of civilians systematically killed to provoke Russia into a war.  Even the opposition parties in RUssia support RUssian Government policies in Ukraine. so TR1 is a real Phenomenon.. he is simply a fraud.. I can smell
    a fraud from a mile away.. and TR1 is one of them. he should just stay away of any politics discussion ,because so far ,the more he talks ,the more he expose himself. No

    higurashihougi
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  higurashihougi Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:51 am

    Very Happy Very Happy

    http://en.hunternews.ru/?p=893

    Video:Poroshenko Arrives in Odessa, Greeted with Protests and Anti-Fascist Slogans
    KomissarBojanchev
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  KomissarBojanchev Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:34 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So if it is easy to identify them, how come French intelligence agencies denies Russian involvement and how come Poroshenko has had great difficulty exposing the others like the passport photograph he had and failed to provide copies around? OSCE said they cant find anything either.

    Curious really, cause if the evidence was this easy, it would be paraded around a heck of a lot more since that is what Poroshenko does (since he has so far failed miserably as a president).

    Not denying just curious. As well, the Russian gov would make it too easy so that denying it would be hars, they are not that stupid.

    If true, sucks. They should be sending over just equipment and training personnell.

    T-72B3s don't lie.

    .
    Crabshell ERA layout blurred photos=////////= T-72B3
    magnumcromagnon
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:42 am

    Sweden says “Russian Submarine” was just an ordinary boat

    higurashihougi
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  higurashihougi Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:10 am

    Very Happy Very Happy

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12 - Page 12 11143394_943723745668118_2177491131216818503_n

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