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    Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 10, 2022 9:17 am

    To fit in their vertical launchers it would need to be Brahmos sized and considering the Brahmos hybrid propulsion system of rocket and ramjet is proven the hypersonic requirement suggests they want to upgrade the ramjet to a scramjet...

    Being a ship launched ballistic missile it would not belong in this thread really.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue May 10, 2022 8:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:Being a ship launched ballistic missile it would not belong in this thread really.
    Yes of course, this is not the correct thread. If I had the privilege to shift posts to another thread I would have done that.

    Just that we were discussing about indigenous missiles so I posted it here.

    Interesting that India chose a ship launched Ballistic missile when BRAHMOS, the ship based cruise missile already exists.

    Ship launched Ballistic missiles do not provide any advantage over ship launched cruise missile.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 11, 2022 5:46 am

    I suspect the only difference between this new missile and Brahmos is the flight speed... which mentions hypersonic glide vehicle.

    The Brahmos fits the capacity of its launcher so whatever replaces it will need to be similar in size or they will need new launchers which means every ship you want to use it will also need new launch tubes... which would be a pain in the backside.

    I suspect this new missile will be Brahmos II and will be for India what Zircon is for Russia... a replacement hypersonic missile that fits in the same tubes as the missiles it replaces (ie Onyx for Russia and Brahmos for India).

    The only other likely option is that they have a solid rocket IRBM from a land based system they want to place hypersonic gliders on top of and take to sea...

    A new scramjet powered Brahmos makes more sense to me and has all the advantages that Zircon has... can be fitted to existing launch tubes which can continue to use other missile types as well as needed, and size and shape are not much different from the previous missile but flight performance it much much better.

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    Post  Sujoy Wed May 11, 2022 6:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect the only difference between this new missile and Brahmos is the flight speed...  which mentions hypersonic glide vehicle.

    The Brahmos fits the capacity of its launcher so whatever replaces it will need to be similar in size or they will need new launchers which means every ship you want to use it will also need new launch tubes... which would be a pain in the backside.

    I suspect this new missile will be Brahmos II and will be for India what Zircon is for Russia... a replacement hypersonic missile that fits in the same tubes as the missiles it replaces (ie Onyx for Russia and Brahmos for India).

    The only other likely option is that they have a solid rocket IRBM from a land based system they want to place hypersonic gliders on top of and take to sea...

    A new scramjet powered Brahmos makes more sense to me and has all the advantages that Zircon has... can be fitted to existing launch tubes which can continue to use other missile types as well as needed, and size and shape are not much different from the previous missile but flight performance it much much better.
    China recently test fired a similar ship based ballistic missile called YJ-21. The footage, shows a cold-launched (possibly two-stage) missile, implying an ant-ship ballistic missile with HGV. The new missile outwardly resembles the CM-401 design, with the addition of a large booster phase. The CM-401 is roughly analogous to the Iskander missile although its diameter is only 600mm

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    Post  GarryB Thu May 12, 2022 1:24 am

    The size of the control surfaces being small meaning it is not an anti air missile????

    Really????

    The Standard SAM used by the US Navy is a two stage SAM, and the S-300F used by the Soviet and Russian Navy only has the relatively small tail mounted control fins too... when the missile is flying very fast and is intended for long range use then lots of control surfaces just introduce drag.

    Having lots of control surfaces on a very very fast missile is a waste of time and energy.... a very very fast missile can't make 90 degree turns no matter how big the "wing surface" is... but a large wing surface will certainly massively reduce the potential top speed of any missile because of drag.

    I would guess that this is actually a very long range SAM and is an evolution of the Standard range of US missiles, probably with features and capabilities of Russian/Soviet S-300 missile types added to make it better.

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    Post  Sujoy Thu May 12, 2022 8:43 am

    GarryB wrote:The size of the control surfaces being small meaning it is not an anti air missile????

    Really????

    The Standard SAM used by the US Navy is a two stage SAM, and the S-300F used by the Soviet and Russian Navy only has the relatively small tail mounted control fins too... when the missile is flying very fast and is intended for long range use then lots of control surfaces just introduce drag.

    Having lots of control surfaces on a very very fast missile is a waste of time and energy.... a very very fast missile can't make 90 degree turns no matter how big the "wing surface" is... but a large wing surface will certainly massively reduce the potential top speed of any missile because of drag.

    I would guess that this is actually a very long range SAM and is an evolution of the Standard range of US missiles, probably with features and capabilities of Russian/Soviet S-300 missile types added to make it better.
    Yes, what you are saying makes sense. The commentary provided in the video by H I Sutton is wrong.

    However this missile seems to be a surface to surface ship launched ballistic missile not a surface to air missile.

    Probably China, India intends to carry out land attack using ship launched ballistic missile. Maybe Russia too will develop a ship launched version of Kinzhal.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:02 pm

    India Halves $20B Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft Program:

    The Indian Air Force is cutting down its foreign fighter procurement program requirement from 114 to 57 aircraft, Business World revealed.

    Moreover, the estimated $20 billion Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft program is likely to be executed through the Indian government’s “Buy Global Make in India” route, replacing the earlier strategic partnership model, the Indian publication added citing sources.

    All the aircraft will be manufactured in India “with the transfer of technology by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) to an Indian company.” The OEM will choose its Indian partner, the outlet specified.

    Push for Indigenization
    The publication attributed the change to the government’s push for indigenization of defense equipment and building a domestic defense-industrial complex.

    The government has also reportedly slashed the Indian Navy’s original requirement of 57 aircraft to 26.

    Seven defense firms, including Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Dassault, Saab, a European consortium, Sukhoi, and MiG, responded to the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) request for information for the 114 aircraft in 2018.

    Lockheed Martin is pitching its India-specific F-21 aircraft for the competition, while Boeing’s F-15EX and F/A-18 Super Hornet are in the race along with Dassault’s Rafale, Saab’s Gripen, and the European consortium’s Eurofighter, Sukhoi’s S-35 and MiG’s MiG-35.

    The IAF is expected to issue a global tender for the 57 aircraft at year’s end.

    Concerns Over Development
    The Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft program was floated with the expectation of reversing the IAF’s dwindling fighter squadron (18 aircraft) strength from 30 to 35 in 15 years.

    The IAF’s ideal squadron strength is 42. However, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari said recently that the number is impossible to achieve in the “foreseeable future.”

    The IAF launched the program following the cancellation of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft program in 2015 over contractual disagreements between the Indian government and the preferred bidder, Dassault.

    The Indian government signed another contract with the French defense firm in 2016 to buy 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition afterward.

    Reacting to the development, the outlet quoted a defense observer as saying that “a cutback in numbers by half makes it more challenging to execute a complex tender like this one. Numbers provide viability, cost-effectiveness and affordability.”

    https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/01/india-multi-role-fighter-program/amp/

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    Post  Broski Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:19 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:India Halves $20B Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft Program:

    The Indian Air Force is cutting down its foreign fighter procurement program requirement from 114 to 57 aircraft, Business World revealed.

    All the aircraft will be manufactured in India “with the transfer of technology by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) to an Indian company.” The OEM will choose its Indian partner, the outlet specified.

    The government has also reportedly slashed the Indian Navy’s original requirement of 57 aircraft to 26.
    Lockheed Martin is pitching its India-specific F-21 aircraft for the competition, while Boeing’s F-15EX and F/A-18 Super Hornet are in the race along with Dassault’s Rafale, Saab’s Gripen, and the European consortium’s Eurofighter, Sukhoi’s S-35 and MiG’s MiG-35.

    https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/01/india-multi-role-fighter-program/amp/
    After spending $8 Billion on the Rafales in one of the worst and most corrupt defense procurement deals I've ever seen, I'm not surprised they're cutting the number of fighters down in the new tender by half.

    The chances of Boeing and Dassault agreeing to a technology transfer for the F-15EX and Rafale is basically 0%. 
    The F-16(F-21) and F-18's according to the US military itself are becoming increasingly obsolete and outdated compared to more modern platforms.

    The Gripen doesn't bring anything to the table as far as speed, range & avionics are concerned although they're probably the most economical fighter jet as far as flight hours are concerned.

    And last and most certainly least, the Eurofighter, a plane as expensive as the F-15EX with 1/10th of the capabilities and unsurprisingly little success on the international market. Also, I highly doubt that the EU+UK's recent antics against Russia with the sanctions, property theft and freezing of their currency reserves has left a good impression on the Indians as far as a "reliable defense partner" is concerned.

    India won't choose the Su-35 either because they're planning to upgrade their Su-30's to the Su-30SM2 Export standard.

    Which leaves the MiG-35, despite being a work in progress (still undergoing state trials) it's probably the cheapest option on the list and as an upgraded MiG-29M, would do everything the Indians need it to as an actual Medium sized fighter jet. If I'm not mistaken a naval version of the MiG-35 is also being developed  although I can't imagine it would need much work since the MiG-35 is based directly on the MiG-29KR so it's quite possible that India will end up choosing the MiG-35 for both their Airforce and Navy. 

    A potential deal for 83 MiG-35's in total including armaments, tooling and ToT would cost India approximately $4-5 Billion if they don't include French and Israeli avionics again, not a bad deal.
    Worst case scenario, "better the devil you know", right?

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:49 am

    I totally agree with your logic Broski, but you are ignoring that this is an Indian programme.

    With the SU-30MKI programme they insisted on French and other equipment being added that constituted 75% of the fly away aircraft price while being perhaps 25% of the parts but it was Russia that got the blame for selling them such an expensive aircraft...

    Honestly I think they need to compare the cost figures for F-35 and Rafale for the figures for MiG-35 and Su-35 and realise Russian aircraft are a bargain as well as being rather capable.

    They said they are halving the deal... that means they are buying 57 planes instead of the 126 odd they wanted originally... if that means they are spending 10 billion on the 57 planes that is a huge amount of money... MiG-35s will probably cost them about 3.5 billion and that is selling them at 60 million an aircraft which would be a realistic price to make them for (making them is always more expensive than buying off the shelf).

    The core problem I have is that making them yourself just makes them more expensive but for no real advantage because you wont make them better than the original makers unless the planes are well out of production.

    India should of course have a made in India programme, but don't use it for things you only want 60 of... that is just a waste because when they are done what the hell are all those workers and all those factories going to do?

    The MiG-29M/35 has the advantage of being relatively cheap to operate... the MiG-35 is capable but more expensive to buy, the MiG-29M is good enough and is cheaper to buy in large numbers...

    The obvious solution would be to build 57 MiG-35s for this programme and to then build 300 MiG-29Ms to replace the Tejas as the numbers fighter... in five years time you will have five years operational experience with MiG-35s and MiG-29Ms so you can get your pilots to say what works well in the MiG-35 and what is more expensive but doesn't really make much difference in the MiG-35 and take all the useful stuff and upgrade it all in the 300 MiG-29Ms, and work with MiG to upgrade the MiG-35 with new stuff so you end up with 57 MiG-35Ms and 300 MiG-35s.

    Is it an accident that this new order if for about 60 planes and they have about 60 upgraded MiG-29s in service?

    Perhaps they could talk to Iran and make a joint deal where they make 600 MiG-29Ms of which 100 or 200 are for Iran or Iraq or Syria or Egypt...

    Russia was working on ramjet powered AAMs and then suddenly publicly stopped... just at a time when they made two breakthroughs... one in more powerful rocket fuels with nano particles in them and one when they started fielding scramjet powered long range anti ship missiles.

    Both technologies can be applied to AAMs to extend the reach of their fighter interceptors... MiG-29Ms or MiG-35s are single or two seat... you can change from one to the other... the difference is a reduction in flight range and endurance with the extra set of eyes, but also an extra set of eyes.

    Such aircraft would be excellent light fighter light strike light interceptor replacements for MiG-21s, MiG-27s, Su-17s, Jaguars, and M2000s in the strike role or the fighter role... not to mention also replacing original MiG-29s they have in service.

    MiG has revealed a model of its light single engined next gen light fighter, and also model of a new twin engined carrier deck fighter... both of which will need new 5th gen avionics and systems which could be field tested in upgrades of MiG-35s on land and at sea.

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    Post  Sujoy Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:23 am

    India to purchase airborne defence suite from Defense Initiatives, Belarus

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    Post  TMA1 Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:35 am

    I am liking where India is going with all of this. It is risky, but they need to start building their own stuff, they have the potential to do so unlike many smaller nations with less reach. They need to do this so they are not relying on anyone else, so they are not beholden to anyone. It sucks as I was hoping they would be able to aid Russia in these tough times but Russia can take care of itself as far as their MIC is concerned. India needs to take care of it's own needs. I think the su-57 would be much better than the rafale, though. Still I can understand as the rafale edges out the su-35 a little bit in some key areas and the su-57 was not ready in time to fill the fighter gap particularly after they bailed out of the joint program.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:41 am

    Probably China, India intends to carry out land attack using ship launched ballistic missile. Maybe Russia too will develop a ship launched version of Kinzhal.

    No... a ship launched Iskander type missile would not make any sense at all... it is a solid fuelled rocket and would have a range of about 500km from a ship launch. They already have Zircon which is faster and smaller and lighter and already fits in their standard new UKSK launch tubes and has a flight range of about 1,500km or so.

    India Halves $20B Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft Program:

    The Indian Air Force is cutting down its foreign fighter procurement program requirement from 114 to 57 aircraft, Business World revealed.

    So to be clear they are halving the number of fighters they will be buying but presumably also halving the value of the deal to 10 billion too or is it going to be a 57 aircraft deal for 20 billion... which sounds like they still want Rafales...

    With the original deal I think they should have gone for 24 Rafales for 5 billion and the remaining 102 aircraft being a mix of MiG-29Ms and MiG-35s for the remaining 5 billion in the 10 billion dollar contract...

    They could licence produce the MiG-29Ms in volume to replace MiG-21s and MiG-27s and Jaguars, and trade back their existing 60 odd MiG-29s for new airframe new build MiGs.

    They could have the MiG-29Ms in service already with the MiG-35s becoming available over time... the MiG-29Ms being vastly more capable than MiG-21s or MiG-27s in the roles of air combat and light strike roles and probably cheaper and safer to operate with twin engines.

    Over the next few years they can examine the performance of the MiG-35s and MiG-29Ms they operate and decide what components in the MiG-35 are worth the extra cost, and which are not, and anything that needs to be improved and in 5 to ten years upgrade all their fleet with the more expensive bits in the MiG-35 that are worth the extra cost, and then upgrade the bits on the MiG-35 they wanted improved.... they would go from an airfleet with MiG-21s and MiG-27s and Jaguars and MiG-29UPGs and Su-30MKIs and M2Ks and Rafales to a fleet with MiG-29Ms, MiG-35s, Su-30MKIs, M2Ks, and Rafales... and then with MiG-35s and MiG-35Ms and Flanekrs and M2Ks and Rafales.

    The MiG-35 and MiG-29Ms are designed to perform very similar roles to the Su-35 but over shorter distances and at lower costs.... they are numbers planes to fill gaps and fill out the air space for the defence... as such it makes sense to make them in numbers... so for India it makes sense to have local assembly or production... perhaps even including licence production for other customers like Iraq or Iran or Syria if they want some... though Iran might want to make their own if they want some.  Could be a cheap light plane for Turkey if they are interested.

    Note the MiG-35 is not that much smaller than the Su-57 which is smaller than the Flanker...

    Indian Air Force (IAF): News - Page 19 Su_57m14

    India to purchase airborne defence suite from Defense Initiatives, Belarus

    They do have an interesting range of self defence avionics suites... they have some interesting weapon pylon mounted jammers that allow weapons to be carried on them so they don't tie up a weapon pylon.

    The Rafale is not a bad aircraft at all, but it is too small... and you always see it with external fuel tanks... it is not really in the same weight class as Su-35s and Su-57s... especially when the price of it means you could have two or three Su-57s for the same price, or three or four Su-35s...

    I am sure the radar and IRST and other thing are amazing, but will they let you work with them to improve them?

    Will they start sanctioning you now that you are buying up western companies businesses in Russia cheap, or you continue to buy Russian oil and ignore their talk of price caps for Russian export products.

    India would be best to buy their best fighters from foreign makers without mixing and matching components because that makes them more expensive.

    If they want to get in to the aircraft production market then making the cheaper lighter fighters would have more international sales appeal to the rest of the world... they could make MiG-29Ms and MiG-35s for themselves and other countries.

    With AESA radars and modern air to air missiles they would be very potent platforms and in COIN type operations bombing with dumb bombs from 8km plus altitudes would be a very cost effective way of delivering ordinance to enemy targets.

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    Post  Sujoy Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:07 am

    TMA1 wrote:I think the su-57 would be much better than the rafale, though. Still I can understand as the rafale edges out the su-35 a little bit in some key areas and the su-57 was not ready in time to fill the fighter gap particularly after they bailed out of the joint program.
    India in all likelihood will replace the Su-30MKI with the Su-57.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:51 am

    GarryB wrote:No... a ship launched Iskander type missile would not make any sense at all... it .
    But China is developing/testing ship launched ballistic missiles.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:57 am

    They already have brahmos and brahmos 2 is coming along, it's more then enough.

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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:They could licence produce the MiG-29Ms in volume to replace MiG-21s and MiG-27s and Jaguars, and trade back their existing 60 odd MiG-29s for new airframe new build MiGs.
    Apart from the Admiral Groshkov/INS Vikramaditya aircrat carrier which is now nothing but a dud..... that can't even venture a few nauticle miles into the sea without breaking down  the accompanying Mig 29Ks have also been a disappointment. Beseiged with a whole lot of technical problems. Consequently, air patrol over the seas are now being carried out by Su 30MKIs.

    So it is highly unlikely that India will go in for more Migs in the future.
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:14 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They could licence produce the MiG-29Ms in volume to replace MiG-21s and MiG-27s and Jaguars, and trade back their existing 60 odd MiG-29s for new airframe new build MiGs.
    Apart from the Admiral Groshkov/INS Vikramaditya aircrat carrier which is now nothing but a dud..... that can't even venture a few nauticle miles into the sea without breaking down  the accompanying Mig 29Ks have also been a disappointment. Beseiged with a whole lot of technical problems. Consequently, air patrol over the seas are now being carried out by Su 30MKIs.

    So it is highly unlikely that India will go in for more Migs in the future.

    After the first encounter with pakistani jets they came to beg for russian planes. Not french. Not US. But russians.

    There are plenty of mirage 2000 on sells around the world. If they don't like migs why don't they just buy it.

    Indians split too much on russians. Russia should tell them to **** off and buy western shit.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:05 am

    But China is developing/testing ship launched ballistic missiles.

    China hasn't got Zircon. Onyx is a 500km range mach 2.5 missile of about 2.5 tons... Iskander is a 4.8 ton missile with a speed of mach 7 and a range of about 500km that is solid rocket powered.

    Zircon is similar in size and weight to Onyx but triples the range and increases the flight speed by 4 times.

    To achieve that with a conventional solid rocket missile you would need a very big multi stage weapon probably three times heavier than the Iskander because the extra fuel required to increase speed and also increase range will require even more fuel to launch to get moving.... in a vicious circle of increased weight and size.

    China has a lot of IRBMs so they probably have a few weapons they could put on ships in special launch tubes already... but a scramjet is the key to high speed and long range... well imagine how big and heavy an airliner would be if it had to be rocket powered... carrying 100 tons of fuel would mean 300 tons of oxidiser would be needed to burn that fuel and carrying an extra 300 tons would mean more power to get airborne and a larger aircraft to contain all that fuel... and burning 400 tons of propellent every flight is not very efficient or clean...

    So it is highly unlikely that India will go in for more Migs in the future.

    Well that is very short sighted... all new aircraft have issues and problems that need to be solved and once you solve them you have what are called mature platforms.... swapping them for something else will just lead to other problems... and which western aircraft can get airborne from such a small carrier without assisted takeoffs.

    Western aircraft tried to show they could get airborne with a ramp takeoff but how did that effect their performance once airborne.

    Or is the F-35 in the VSTOL version on the horizon.... Hahahahahaha...

    There are plenty of mirage 2000 on sells around the world. If they don't like migs why don't they just buy it.

    From a purely naval perspective if they want a fixed wing fighter aircraft to operate from a Gorshkov sized carrier their only options would be MiG-29K or F-35 in the VSTOL fighter version.

    Any new type will have problems... when they were working on the MiG-29K they were thinking about Kuznetsov sized carriers and not Kiev class sized carriers, but no matter how bad the MiG-29K could possibly be it cannot be worse than the F-35 VSTOL version which is also the most expensive to buy and to operate and the most likely to crash.

    I honestly don't think India appreciates what it has... if they turn west... well then they had better learn to be grateful for the scraps the US throws their way...
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:01 pm

    Isos wrote:After the first encounter with pakistani jets they came to beg for russian planes. Not french. Not US. But russians.
    "Beg"??? Russia charges a bomb for their hardware much like the West. They are not doing charity. That aside this is fake news anyway.

    Isos wrote:There are plenty of mirage 2000 on sells around the world. If they don't like migs why don't they just buy it.
    Good advise for the Russians. Given that their Mig 29K sucks as much as ours and consequently no new orders have been placed maybe they should try a western aircraft.

    Isos wrote:Indians split too much on russians. Russia should tell them to **** off and buy western shit.
    Maybe they should, but they can't, because neither are they into charity nor have they found a replacement for India - their biggest customer.

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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:11 pm

    They don't really care about biggest customer anymore it seems as they aren't really busy trying to sell to India in recent years it seems.

    India burned a lot of bridges, especially with the fighter jet deal which ended up being a joke as India didn't get all the rafales they were promised.

    India was also the only country to face such issues with its Su-30's to which they did indeed go to Russia demanding more (and MiG-29UPG's as well) after the ordeal with Pakistan because the western weapons didn't actually fair as well as India hoped.

    While I have sympathy for Indians, I do not for their military nor government. The Indians have a military worst than Saudi Arabia due to so many different equipment being g a logistics nightmare, mix matching parts that to the point don't work as intended, huge corruption issue that lead to jet engine parts being smuggled out of the country and replaced with low quality that lead to disasters, and constant running of their mouths burning bridges.

    Don't worry about Russia sujoy, Algeria and likes will be replacing India ad big consumers of Russian weapons. More like you need to worry about being sold garbage because so far, western weapons are turning out to be a big marketing scam as seen in Ukraine.

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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:50 pm

    GarryB wrote: Any new type will have problems... when they were working on the MiG-29K they were thinking about Kuznetsov sized carriers and not Kiev class sized carriers, but no matter how bad the MiG-29K could possibly be it cannot be worse than the F-35 VSTOL version which is also the most expensive to buy and to operate and the most likely to crash.

    I honestly don't think India appreciates what it has... if they turn west... well then they had better learn to be grateful for the scraps the US throws their way...
    Just that those problems with Mig 29K never got addressed.

    This is what you are saying - since the F-35 is a terrible product we will sell you a product a notch above terrible - mediocre.

    The sale of the dud Admiral Groshkov/INS Vikramaditya along with the most ordinary aircraft Mig 29K exposes the skullduggery involved in several deals involving Russia despite the fact that India has been the largest purchaser of russian military H/W for more than 3 decades.

    There are shortcomings with the Mig 29Ks airframe, the RD-33MK engine, fly by wire system; in short, the entire fighter. The Mig 29K suffers repeated engine failure. Of the 65 RD-33MK turbofan engines received from manufacturer Klimov, the Indian Navy had to withdraw 40 of them.

    Mig 29K is unable to deliver their weapons payload to their stated range with a full fuel load.

    This fighter was never ruggedised for carrier operation. Every single deck landing severely damages many of the fighters on board components. It's operational availability is between 15% - 37%.

    Since 2018 four MiG-29K/KUB fighters and trainers have already crashed in the sea. This despite the fact that the Indian Navy had hired Mig 29 UPG pilots from the Indian Air Force who had at least 2000 hrs of flying experience on the Mig 29 UPG.



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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:09 am

    Given that their Mig 29K sucks as much as ours and consequently no new orders have been placed maybe they should try a western aircraft.

    Can you provide evidence of the MiG-29K sucking?

    Last time I read that sort of thing there was a message from MiG to state the claims of problems were lies or were because of the way the Indians did things which led to aircraft waiting for spares instead of having a spares pool of items they could draw from as some clever management way to fudge the operational costs of the aircraft.

    AFAIK the Egyptians are happy with the MiG-29Ms.

    Most of the aircraft India operates are upgraded old model MiG-29UPGs which is essentially MiG-29SMT and not a MiG-29K or MiG-29M or MiG-35.

    Seems to me that India is bagging the MiG and sabotaging its performance potential so as to make room for Tejas because from what I have read the MiG has very low operating costs that would probably make a lighter fighter a bit redundant because it likely would not be any cheaper to operate but being smaller and lighter likely would be less useful.

    They don't really care about biggest customer anymore it seems as they aren't really busy trying to sell to India in recent years it seems.

    They continue to offer products to India and India continues to pick a range of different products appearing to want different providers no matter what the product being offered.

    The MMRCA programme was for 10 billion... the Rafale should never have been allowed to enter because they would never have been able to sell 50 for 10 billion let alone the 126 they wanted... they ended up buying 36 Rafales for 8.4 billion...

    The point of the programme was to get some modern capable fighters into service in numbers to make up for the aircraft being retired at the time and they dragged it out... ended up paying too much for the aircraft they got and didn't get the terms they wanted either... no technology transfer.

    What they should have done was split the programme up... if they wanted a numbers plane then MiG-29Ms would have been the best choice.... they probably could have been built in India... for 10 billion you probably could have built 200 of them for that price.

    Just that those problems with Mig 29K never got addressed.

    Says who?

    What problems?

    Russia operates the aircraft herself... they are hardly going to ignore problems... unless the problems are made up crap from western journalists who think India should buy second hand US carriers and operate US fighters from them instead... then you will understand what expensive means.

    This is what you are saying - since the F-35 is a terrible product we will sell you a product a notch above terrible - mediocre.

    Not at all. The concept of the F-35 is OK, but VSTOL aircraft are overrated crap... all of them... there is no good VSTOL fighter yet because the design compromises penalise the design and make it heavy and big and trying to make it a 5th gen fighter with all internal weapons and fuel just compounds that to make it even worse.

    Their problem is that they spend more time and energy making the aircraft cancel proof than they did making it a good aircraft.

    The sale of the dud Admiral Groshkov/INS Vikramaditya along with the most ordinary aircraft Mig 29K exposes the skullduggery involved in several deals involving Russia despite the fact that India has been the largest purchaser of russian military H/W for more than 3 decades.

    2.5 billion for aircraft carrier and air wing including Ka-31 AEW helicopters and 24 MiG-29Ks and a ship... yeah... India got screwed... it is nowhere near as good as their other carriers like ummmm... and ummm...

    Apart from costing more than was first expected what exactly makes it a dud in your eyes?

    Even if you double the price again it is still cheaper than 18 Rafales which would be 4.2 billion.

    There are shortcomings with the Mig 29Ks airframe, the RD-33MK engine, fly by wire system; in short, the entire fighter. The Mig 29K suffers repeated engine failure. Of the 65 RD-33MK turbofan engines received from manufacturer Klimov, the Indian Navy had to withdraw 40 of them.

    Yet the Russians operate them too and the Pakistanis buy modified RD-33s for the aircraft they buy from China... you would think repeated engine failure in a single engine fighter would be a deal breaker and they would look for another engine... but they don't.

    Can I ask the source of information about these complaints?

    Mig 29K is unable to deliver their weapons payload to their stated range with a full fuel load.

    The Gorshkov is smaller than the Kuznetsov, that is bound to effect performance... assuming it is actually a real problem that is not made up too.

    This fighter was never ruggedised for carrier operation. Every single deck landing severely damages many of the fighters on board components. It's operational availability is between 15% - 37%.

    Actually all three of the new models the K and M and 35 were all designed to be carrier capable because they share the same aircraft structure which requires improved undercarriage and strengthened rear for the tail hook. The reasoning was that even if not being used on an aircraft carrier being able to take off and land from short stretches of motorway makes them easier to deploy and they have a vehicle based cable landing system to allow them to operate from very short stretches of road too.

    Since 2018 four MiG-29K/KUB fighters and trainers have already crashed in the sea. This despite the fact that the Indian Navy had hired Mig 29 UPG pilots from the Indian Air Force who had at least 2000 hrs of flying experience on the Mig 29 UPG.

    Experience flying an aircraft from land is not much of an advantage for landing on a ship... the British have also lost at least one F-35 soon after getting them... and according to the myth and legend the F-35 is supposed to be a very easy plane to fly in the hover for landing and taking off.

    Learning new skills is dangerous... otherwise everyone would be doing it.

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    Post  Sujoy Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:59 am

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK the Egyptians are happy with the MiG-29Ms.
    They never purchased the Mig 29K. They seem to be equally happy with their F-16s and Mirage 2000s.

    GarryB wrote:Seems to me that India is bagging the MiG and sabotaging its performance potential so as to make room for Tejas
    By killing their own pilots after spending millions of $$ in training them and a naval variant of the Tejas is not even on the horizon. You have a fertile imagination, consider a career in movies.

    GarryB wrote:Russia operates the aircraft herself... they are hardly going to ignore problems...
    Maybe that's why no new orders have been placed for the Mig 29K.

    GarryB wrote:2.5 billion for aircraft carrier and air wing including Ka-31 AEW helicopters and 24 MiG-29Ks and a ship... yeah... India got screwed... it is nowhere near as good as their other carriers like ummmm... and ummm...
    Admiral Gorshkov is a harbour queen ever since it was inducted. Fishing boats have sailed further into the sea than this third class aircraft carrier that breaks down daily.

    GarryB wrote:the Pakistanis buy modified RD-33s for the aircraft they buy from China... you would think repeated engine failure in a single engine fighter would be a deal breaker and they would look for another engine... but they don't.
    That explains why 40% of their JF-17 have been grounded and they are trying to purchase used F-16s.

    GarryB wrote:Can I ask the source of information about these complaints?
    Comptroller & Auditor General's reports. Indian Navy's internal investigation after every single crash involving the Mig 29K.

    GarryB wrote:Experience flying an aircraft from land is not much of an advantage for landing on a ship...
    Bullshit. India acquired the Mig 29Ks even before the Groshkov arrived. These Mig 29Ks were taking off from land and landing on land when they crashed.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:17 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    Admiral Gorshkov is a harbour queen ever since it was inducted. Fishing boats have sailed further into the sea than this third class aircraft carrier that breaks down daily.

    This part fascinated me because it sums up perfectly well all the situation.
    First, you are taking things that worked perfectly fine for years.
    You put hundreds of changes in it, most of them in the process of reconstruction, in the middle of nowhere.
    Ask to place there some bizarre parts that never has been part of the system, sourced from third countries with no business connections with the producer, and unwilling to share crucial documentation.
    Third, you push for wiring it with your own manner, and put your very own indigenous support systems, that are not compatible neither with the base product itself, nor the third parties supply you have already asked to install, no matter that the producer told you that that is a bad idea.
    Fourth, you are making your own software to operate all that shit, which makes it already a puzzle made of four different boxes found hard to fit.
    At the very end, you put your very own staff there, half of them hardly literate, and ask them to make maintenance of this whole stuff.
    What result we might expect, oh my, let me think for a moment to make a conclusion ...

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    Post  TMA1 Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:36 am

    Dont get angry guys. I do know that there have been issues with the mig-29k but I am so tired of outside parties trashing on ruskie equipment. Indian sources have lately been extremely harsh and I do not fully trust any bit of it. Globaldefensecorp is indian in origin and is dedicated to trashing Russian equipment and they have made extremely glaring errors. I know the west for some time was even quietly supporting some indian defense yt channels to attack russian equipment.

    Dont like it one bit. I understand your patriotism sujoy but this is a site for fans of russian defense equipment. Of course people here are going to be wary of attacks against it and they have good reason to be wary with lots of disinfo out there.

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