ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 AA Guns: Views

Not really new, during the soviet invasion of afghanistan ZU-23 towed gun mounts were lashed to the flatbed rear of ural trucks to provide serious fire power when needed... normally with no extra armour at all.

A smaller lighter jeep like vehicle with remote control rear flat bed mounted twin 23mm cannon would be a very good solution too... especially if the ammo feed was rejiggered to allow several hundred or even thousand rounds for each gun to be loaded in place in enlarged ammo magazines fitted to the gun mount so the crew did not need to leave the cabin to reload.

they have learnt a lot in Syria, and its now obvious from this that they see how useful AA guns can be in direct fire role, just like they designing a new lightweight anti tank?material gun which with its cheap effective rounds is what you want in a prolonged war. A while ago Garryb posted a pic of a russian designed 4x4 with a zu-23-2 on the back it seemed like it was remote controlled from inside the cab, we both suggested that it would have been ideal to increase ammo load and encase the gun in metal capsule to protect ammo from shell splinters. cant remember which thread it was in. but obvious something they sw was useful from Syria.

they have learnt a lot in Syria, and its now obvious from this that they see how useful AA guns can be in direct fire role, just like they designing a new lightweight anti tank?material gun which with its cheap effective rounds is what you want in a prolonged war.

To be fair they have for some time used SPAAGs in the ground role... from the twin 14.5mm HMG mount in BTR-40s, through twin 23mm cannon on flat bed trucks as well as Shilka platforms and ZSU-57-2 vehicles and Tunguska vehicles they already have a good history of dual use AA guns as devastating weapons in the ground support role.

Together with the 30mm cannon equipped BMPs and well as 73mm gun armed BMPs for heavier HE direct fire power led to the BMP-3 with both 30mm cannon fire power and 100mm direct and indirect fire HE fire power there is no shortage of fire power in Russian units...

Their 120mm mortar units have been pretty famous since WWII and also providing serious front line fire power, together of course with devastating artillery in the form of Grad rocket batteries.

Firstly would it be possible for the mods to change thread title to zsu-23-4 and zu-23-2 systems please.

Polish upgrade similar to Russian zom-1 etc etc

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/12/04/zu-23-2-pilica-rocket-artillery-set-anti-aircraft-poland/amp/










South African SP version.
Werwolf Mk2 mine-resistant platform, a heavily glazed armored jacket is installed, in which the Soviet ZU-23-2 nests , in the front of the installation, above the driver's cabin, a Cup-T machine gun , caliber 12.7mm, is installed , covering, among other things, the dead sector of the anti-aircraft gun, because its turret does not rotate 360 ​​degrees.

Pay attention to the absence of any target search and guidance systems.


https://strangernn.livejournal.com/36981.html

Ukrainian upgraded version of ZSU-23-4 called Donets Ukrainian modernization developed by Malyshev Tank Factory in Kharkov. Improved turret from ZSU-23-4 armed with two additional paired man-portable air-defense systems “Strela-10” was installed on chassis from T-80UD main battle tank. Ammunition for 23 mm autocannons increased two times.



A few Iranian systems. One with enlarged magazine. SP mesbah, and a triple barrel gattling 23mm.




And couple of other zu-23-2 systems, notice last pic being used to cover a valley ideal for this type of defence.

A good clip of Russian and Soviet AD systems, including ZSU-23-4 upgraded version.

Showcasing the Zu-23-2 with a new radar to target drones and using the new programmable 23mm airburst. This will be similar to the ZOM upgrades which allows automatic functions and tracking.

Airburst rounds in 23mm is impressive....

We might see a resurrection of these systems as air defense as for years they were thought as redundant when it came to AD and used mostly as direct fire role. With the ZOM-1 and ZOM-2 upgrades etc that I posted earlier on this thread along with the airburst rounds would be a good a d cheap method of taking out drones as well as still having a capacity to take out aircraft that get to close for its Verba/SA-24 or Strela-10. I think it was Serbia who designed a Strela-10 missiles extended range (double) to 10km range could also be adopted. And such Iranian systems like I also posted earlier in the thread, the SP Mesbah (8 barrels),or the 23mm triple barrelled gattling gun, would be a step even further. Iran also adopted a larger magazine (also posted earlier) and of course a new lease of life for ZSU-23-4.

Russia is now in a position to not only sell 23mm airburst rounds to export customers who still use these systems but they could also offer upgrades to these systems, or a step further dig out old ZSU-23-4 and produce Zu-23-2 and sell on export market. After seeing what FPV drones can do countries might be interested in such systems. Of course these systems would also work better with EW systems but not every country will have the money to buy EW systems in large numbers and Russia may not be ready to sell such sensitive equipment abroad. And FPV drones are very cheap and can be numerous so TOR and Pantsir could be an expensive solution.

I would certainly think as a minimum all existing countries using 23mm systems will want this new type of ammo.

Not just that, the 23mm cannon shell from the 23 x 152mm high velocity Shilka SPAAG and ZU-23 towed cannon is also used in the 23 x 115mm gun used in the tail gun of the Tu-22M3 and Il-76 type aircraft as well as the chin turret gun of the later model HInds.

The smaller propellant capacity means lower recoil, allowing a massive rate of fire at the cost of a low muzzle velocity of about 700m/s.

Rate of fire puts lots of projectiles on target at once even if they do take their time getting there and the smaller rounds means more ready to fire rounds can be carried on a give vehicle.

Equally interesting there is a version of the KPV 14.5mm HMG that can easily be converted to the KPVB in 23 x 115mm (from 14.5 x 114mm) which would be a single barrel machine gun with a 600 rpm rate of fire that would allow very short bursts or single shots to be fired easily enough (when you have airburst ammo you don't need an enormous rate of fire... but ironically in air defence you have your target box which is a theoretical box ahead of a moving target where the target will be when the shells fired at it arrive. For a stationary hovering target its target box would be its own dimensions where it is currently hovering, but even a stationary hovering target can suddenly decide to move so say the target is 1km away and the flight time of the cannon shells means those cannon shells will reach the target in 1.3 seconds... you can then extrapolate based on the known performance of the target where that target could move to in 1.3 seconds and that box which would include starting to fly backwards or forwards or left or right or climbing or descending or any combination of any or all of those manouvers... how far will the target move and draw an imaginary box around that airspace.

To shoot that target down what you need to do is fill that entire box with as many fragments as you can so airburst shells fired from 1km away in a burst of 10 shells spread around that box set to detonate in a scattered pattern inside that box so no part of that box is free of fragments... achieve that and you will assure your kill... remember your target might be the size of someones hand.

Now with 23mm cannon shells a target moving forward might slow down but will rarely head backwards and the chances of them climbing or descending are not high so you can concentrate your shots in directions the target is most likely to move but if they see you open fire they might drop down behind cover, but your shells don't fly straight and lobbing them over direct line of sight cover to explode in the safe area below the target will get a kill too.

The point is that airburst 57mm shells will have more fragments spreading over a greater area and the fragments can be heavier to deal with stronger targets, but 23mm rounds could be part of HMG loadout with an anti material 23 x 115mm version...

A SLAP round in 23 x 115mm would be very impressive.... you could use the larger calibre to have a heavier penetrator than used for 50 cal rounds which should enable the penetration to be maintained to greater ranges... the Europeans tried a 15mm anti material rifle based on the 14.5mm HMG round that could penetrate 40mm at 1km range so a 23mm cannon round based APFSDS round should do rather better, especially with improved propellants and penetrators etc etc.

There is a South African anti material rifle that uses a 14.5mm barrel for armour piercing rounds and 20mm cannon shells for HE effect on soft targets. I seem to remember the 20mm was the 20x99mm round or something similar, so a 14.5x114mm and a 23x115mm combo would be a vast improvement... especially with air burst HE rounds in 23mm.

I have my doubts if they can do a programmable 23x115 round, as the fuze is quite big considering the scale. I have shown the ammo samples for 23x152, and the guy who hosted the exhibition was obviously very proud of the fact calling that the smallest round of the type in the world.

I think with this new round they have great export potential. ZSU-23-4 barrels are still made, and the whole system ZSU-23-2 is still made also. And many countries still use these systems. And Russia must have loads of both systems in storage.

There was an article some years back where they upgraded the radar and electrics and this reduced the weight. And I am pretty sure with a more modern cheap radar and electrics make it even lighter. There was nothing really wrong with the chassis etc so they could potentially upgrade and sell these systems with the new rounds to poorer nations. They could also mount the ZSU-23-2 on various platforms trucks, BTR, BMP, MTLB, BPM-97, Typhoon series for example. They could do the same with the new twin barrelled turret that was showcased on BTR-80. That new turret could be also placed on a T-55 or T-62 making a cheap BMPT just add Kornet. Or you could make a series of new cheap AD system based around anti drone.

The customer would have multi options upgrades on their current vehicle pool or buy complete system from Russia. So basically the he new twin barrelled turret on any platform you want, then you can put add ons, such as Verba, SOSNA-R, Strela-10, Strela-10 extended range (NK and I think Serbia designed new missile with range of 10km) suddenly you have a vast range of combinations that can take out drones, and could also target ground targets and the various missile combinations allows anti aircraft and helicopters and larger UAV. I also wonder if a GSh-6-23 gattling type could also be used. As for the fuze size etc, I think it's very possible that they could design a fuze for the ever so slightly smaller round.

I wonder if the reason behind the new round being 23mm is because of the export potential. If you look at the number of Pantsir and Tunguska in service and compare it to ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 systems a large difference. And I am sure Belarus could also help with the upgrades for export customers especially any upgrades to current vehicle pools. If your a nation will a small budget where Pantsir might be out your Budget and with the increased threat of drones especially the smaller type for not huge amounts of money you can turn your ZSU-23-4 into an anti drone killer and if add the missile combo's a fairly cheap and capable short range anti air system

Detailed cut of the newest 23x152 AHEAD ammunition along with modernized ZU-23-2M2 and anti-drone BTR.






Yup. That thing will work.

And just for the records. Take a look at the proportion of the fuze. It uses some 40% of the whole round. That is why I highly doubt if that will be possible to make 23x115. It is simply too small/short. Reducing the explosive charge or fragments load will inflict the round effectiveness in general. It is still the smallest caliber of the type in the world. Good enough to me