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    Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:03 am

    I am not the one falling into it. It's the people who say "Russia is" without a shred of proof.

    Burden of proof is on you and others, not me.

    Can you please share proof of Russia using Iranian missiles?

    Thank you.

    The narrative has been:

    USA: "Russia is importing weapons like drones and missiles from Iran, NK and China"

    Russia: "No we dont"

    Iran: "we didn't sell them anything"

    NK: "No we havent"

    China: " nope"

    Telegram channel's and this site: "Russia is importing Weapons from Iran"

    And yet the drones are written in Cyrillic and no "made in iran" stamps to be seen. And not a single Iranian missile used. Strange, Ukraine is winning the Twitter war with millions of pictures as soon as a helicopter crashes. Yet, thousands of drones and missiles later, I've yet to come across Iranian missiles and or Persian writing on the drones.

    Anyway, I know it isn't me that has a problem at this point.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:10 am

    There is none. And who cares. I think Russia should be using the Fateh series of ballistic missiles actually. It is likely way cheaper than anything Russia has right now. And they should get Belarus to sell them the Polonez. They are already sanctioned anyway.


    Last edited by lancelot on Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:11 am

    Probably not. Russia has the benefit of industrial strength and localization of parts for their missiles.

    Plus with a rather lackluster CEP, I mean if you want to hit something and don't care what, then fine. Their 3m cep I doubt heavily. I mean, remember their jet programs?
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:13 am

    Lackluster CEP my foot. Did you watch the satellite photos of that Iranian missile strike on that US base in Iraq? The Fateh series is pretty accurate. The Qiam is kind of innacurate but not the Fateh.


    Last edited by lancelot on Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:14 am

    3m accurate? Yeah I seen the footage.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:25 am

    And you think 3m is bad? The US SDB-I has a CEP of 5-8m. Iskander-M CEP is 5-7m.
    It is probably about as good as you can get without US military GPS signal or latest Chinese BeiDou signal or something like that.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:50 am

    No, because the 3m cep is a lie.

    Iskander has: optronic, inertial and glonass. And they have the technological base to build each component.

    Somehow Iran surpassed Russia in that regard? And cheaper?

    Lol. Lmao.

    One has to have profound mental retardation to believe that.

    Iran makes a lot of wild claims. Like their fighter jet program. That was a real good one.

    Simple fact is: half the parts Iran has to import especially for guidance kits. Russia doesn't. And no, I don't believe for a single moment that Iranian missiles are: cheaper and better than Russias.

    Edit: now this just occurred to me. Soon people will claim Iran sending their fighter jets to Russia as Russia needs jets and can't build them.

    And I bet most here will believe that too.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:28 am

    The article is trash because, in all these vaunted stories, still not a single shred of evidence shows that the drones came from Iran

    Well folks, give them some credit ...
    Those planes are not flying Iran->Moscow->Iran like buses for nothing, you know ...
    As I don't buy the whole drones to be delivered this way, as it would be ineffective, the components are clear hint.
    A single Il-76 can deliver hundreds of crucial components, or whole electronic sets, or engines ... And those are flying here and back non stop.
    Same applies to the Chinese - it is clear that the An-124s are flying to China and back for a purpose. And it must be an urgent need, if delivered by expensive planes where can be shipped by train ...

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:39 am

    I agree that Russia should openly use some of Iran's other kit. Iran is suffering from western slithery geopolitics too and nations of good will should stand openly together.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:02 am

    By the way, I have watched some North Korean commercials with the missile troops.
    And the rockets look suspiciously similar to the Iranian ones ...
    Sure we talk about some ballistics that will give a very similar output for the same tasks, yet ...
    I will try to find that later.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:05 am

    North Korea was known for decades to have sold missile technology to others. That's essentially how US claimed they (NK) was able to finance their other missile tech research. And their missile tech mostly came from both China and USSR/Russia anyway.

    But the simple fact is economy of scale would favor Russia (or China much more so) than Iran simply due to Russias manufacturing mass production of Iskander over the years. One can "assume" (an acronym for making an ass of you and me) that Russia is transporting loads of stuff from Iran but funny enough, no one speculates of stuff coming from Russia to Iran when Iran was in desperate need of radar, ad and fighter jet tech for years. And they for sure not even gonna bother importing Iranian imported optronics and semiconductors lol, since you know, Iran doesn't produce them while Russia does. On contrary, what I do recall Russia was interested in and lacked was engines - industrial engines used for hydro and others where Russia earlier imported from Germany and Iran also made similar (due to old, expired licenses) and drone engines to which Iran would have an advantage in (due to economy of scale for that being their favor).

    But the evidence we see of what is and isn't used should be evidence enough for you people. Not what you assume.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:27 am

    Sure the flow could be two way. Russkie can deliver some things to Iran for assembling, and just take the products after that via Caspia.
    Nobody really discuss that, but the trade increase and the ship traffic on the Caspia is increasing rapidly. There are already talks about dozens of brand new ships to be build for both Iran and Russia to cover the transportation flows in both directions.
    A ship is not switching the speculations on as much as the plane, yet it cane take 1000x more cargo ... Cool

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:14 pm

    You are just falling into the US's trap where they create these narratives so their opponents self-limit themselves.

    Russia never denied it bought Israeli drones, or any of the other things it bought, why stop believing them now?

    The west has openly poured money and weapons and ammo on Kiev, which as you point out, much of which they had to outsource because they couldn't produce it themselves... yet the only people suggesting Russia is buying from other sources are those same western sources who had to do that much earlier in the conflict.

    Sounds to me like Russia and Iran are telling the truth and the west is lying to cover up the fact that they don't make weapons any more in the volumes needed for a real conflict.

    Their boutique wars to steal resources or to murder rivals consume rather less ordinance it seems.

    There is none. And who cares. I think Russia should be using the Fateh series of ballistic missiles actually. It is likely way cheaper than anything Russia has right now. And they should get Belarus to sell them the Polonez. They are already sanctioned anyway.

    I keep hearing people say Iranian weapons are much cheaper than Russian weapons but I never ever read any sort of break down to prove it.

    Modern ballistic missile do require chemicals and electronics and equipment to make them and not all are cheap or even readily available, and if Iran does not have its own supply then it would probably need to import such things, which no doubt Israel and the US and the west in general would try to restrict.

    The cost for making such things in Iran wont be as high as the west because Iranian arms manufacturers are not criminals like they are in the west, but considering their situation, the costs are probably justified by the threat from Israel and the US and the general hostile west, but I rather doubt they could sell such weapons at give away prices... especially to a country as rich as Russia in comparative terms.

    In fact I would think deals would be made where Russia might be trading GLONASS sensor chips and modern rocket fuel and other bits and pieces... even small electric servo motors and electronic components in return for licence production of Iranian drone designs that are proven to work and they have likely tested over the last few years in Syria.

    Most military are the same and when they find themselves in a conflict zone with allies they will always test each others gear within reason and interest in the kit and equipment the other guys operate will always be high, whether it is superior or inferior, it is interesting to have a look and to play with something exotic.

    There will always be individual features you like or dislike whether the kit is superior or inferior to your own that could be passed on to your own makers to improve your own equipment.

    Sometimes if their kit has many desirable features it might make sense to just make a local version of it and licence produce the type with local parts... so you can maintain it and keep it going.

    I don't think Russia would buy Iranian stuff because it is cheap, I would think they would make it themselves so it probably wont be as cheap as the Iranian products till they have cranked out hundreds of thousands of them because they have to include the cost of the factory to make them in the cost.

    Which is not to say Iranian and Chinese and North Korean and even Cuban or Venezuelan or Vietnamese gear should be ignored as inferior because their designers and engineers are not idiots... for all the high tech up to date capacity of western anti tank and anti aircraft weapons, they don't seem to be that amazing... I would say Kievs existing ATGMs from the cold war and post cold war period were probably more effective... without even taking into account the price.

    Edit: now this just occurred to me. Soon people will claim Iran sending their fighter jets to Russia as Russia needs jets and can't build them.

    The irony is that most would agree that that is silly, however I would not under estimate Iran, they have invested a lot of time and money and experience into drones and ballistic weapons and seem to have managed some significant progress.

    The problem with their ballistic weapons is that they are ballistic, they don't manouver like Iskander does, so Kievs Buk and S-300 wuld have a good chance to shoot them down, unlike with Iskander which manouvers to avoid interception as it comes in to hit the target.

    Their drones are also rather interesting and capable, so I would say the drones are probably best worth a look... the gap in the ballistic weapons category only exists because of the INF treaty on ground launched medium and intermediate range missiles (ballistic and cruise).

    It should not be a huge problem to fill that gap for themselves, ground launched cruise missiles would likely fill the gap first...

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:18 pm

    Not all of the Iranian weapons are purely ballistic. The Iranians put fins for guidance on the front of most of their surface to surface missiles. For example on the Fateh series. The Qiam's warhead also has them. The Iranians are also known to be working on TVC for their solid rocket engines. For example on their Salman upper stage engine for space launch. They might use it in surface to surface missiles eventually.

    As for the Iranian missile guidance being primitive, their missiles clearly should have some sort of satellite guidance. Without satellite guidance they would never be as accurate as they are. And given the fact you can get loss of signal with satellite guidance, they definitively have some sort of inertial guidance as well. As for electro-optical targeting their Khalij Fars anti-shipping derivative of the Fateh has that.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:37 am

    I remember reading that north Korea got a lot of assistance from the Ukraine (especially from the space rocket firm Yuzhmash in Dnepropetrovsk) for their ballistic rocket program

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:13 pm

    Not all of the Iranian weapons are purely ballistic. The Iranians put fins for guidance on the front of most of their surface to surface missiles.

    The tiny fins on the Iskander are for stabilisation only, the ballistic rockets Iran uses are ballistic... having fins for getting them directly on a small target does not make them not ballistic...

    Think of it in terms of the difference between a cruise missile and an aircraft delivered bomb or artillery shell... the cruise missile can fly waypoints and adjust its altitude and speed... based on the first minute of flight you cannot estimate the entire flight path of a cruise missile and during its long flight it might make several extreme turns 180 degrees or more. In comparison a bomb released from an aircraft or an artillery shell fired from a gun, it might have guidance and control surfaces to adjust its flight path but turning 180 degrees would cost it its speed and range so the aircraft will aim the bomb to try to hit the target and the gun will also aim to try to hit the target so the guided impactor just needs to make minor manouvers to get itself on target for a direct hit.

    In comparison the Iskander has a rocket motor that burns from launch to impact, its flight manouvers are not from control fins but from vectored rocket thrust... which allows much more energetic manouvering at any speed... the flight path of the missile is calculated to penetrate any air defences near the target.

    The Iskander has onboard sensors and jammers and decoys etc and will start to perform actual evasive manouvers if an incoming missile is detected, while still manouvering to hit the target... I think most in the west underestimate the missile and the Russians.

    Western countries go on about their new missiles that can communicate and work together to attack targets... Soviet missiles were doing that in the 1970s... because the western navies had something the Soviet Union had... IADS... now the west has suddenly realised the Russians have IADS they are essentially going down the path to defeat them that the Soviets have been walking for almost 50 years... and showing off about their amazing progress...

    The real issue for Iran is that when firing ballistic rockets at the US Army the bar is much much lower and even modified Scuds would be an issue for them in sufficient numbers, so it is not critical that Iranian ballistic rockets are not as scary as Iskander... but with the west pushing Russia and Iran and China and North Korea etc etc together... why not sell some Iskander missiles to Iran and perhaps work with them with some ideas they might have.

    If you look at the ethnicity of engineers in the west you will find an international rainbow of people... these days with likely lots of Chinese surnames... because poaching talent is something the west has done for a very long time, from technology to sport to anything really... talk about copying other peoples stuff... the west sees something they like they buy it and call it their own... there was a rumour that an Australian group managed to perfect a method of processing nuclear fuel using lasers, which the rumour claims the US bought and bought the company... the claim was the threat to US national security because these lasers would be hard to detect and keep track of while the equipment used to refine uranium could be monitors (centrifuges)...

    Who knows if it is true...

    As for the Iranian missile guidance being primitive, their missiles clearly should have some sort of satellite guidance.

    I never claimed Iranian missile guidance was primative, I suggested it was made with western components from the black market that would make it expensive... with all the hard currency purchases on western markets and of course bribes also in hard currency... it would be difficult for Iran to get that sort of currency together and lots of other useful things they could buy like medicine instead if they weren't using it to buy weapon parts.

    My point is that if Russia and Iran cooperate then Russia can probably supply most of those parts they need and Iran can pay in oil which will save them a lot of time and risk and money.

    Without satellite guidance they would never be as accurate as they are. And given the fact you can get loss of signal with satellite guidance, they definitively have some sort of inertial guidance as well.

    Ring laser gyros will be one of the western items they would be using... Russian ones would be just as good for a fraction of the price that they could pay for in oil.

    Inertial guidance is generally used with satellite updates to make sure you are on trajectory, but for the Russian missiles, radar or optical sensors are used for terminal guidance to get real accuracy.

    I remember reading that north Korea got a lot of assistance from the Ukraine (especially from the space rocket firm Yuzhmash in Dnepropetrovsk) for their ballistic rocket program

    Ukraine... all the technology of the Soviet Union, and none of the morals... they were desperate for money after the cold war ended and were selling everything and anything, but the money went to a few men who became very wealthy... the usual story...

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:57 am

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:38 am

    One Iranian MP has announced the delivery of several Su-35 beginning of this year (around March according to their calendar). Israel military is already cooling the champagne pwnd

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:24 am

    @Arrow

    not only exchange for missiles or drones (if that's true). Simply ze west is pushing al equipment to ukronazi regime to fight Russia. Then Russia shall send weapons to west ardent enemies... S-35 is a good choice,. Good beginning i'd say but Iranians need many more then that. something to fight CSGs... improved Onyx?

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