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    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4213
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    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:10 am

    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 16737
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    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  George1 Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:41 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.
    ExBeobachter1987
    ExBeobachter1987

    Posts : 442
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:46 pm

    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.
    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1377
    Points : 1389
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:07 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 10888
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    Join date : 2014-09-11
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    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  kvs Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:54 pm

    The Kiev regime is demanding investors take heavy hair cuts or it will default on all their loans. Will the EU demand that the
    Kiev regime do what it demanded of Greece? I will bet not. So why is partial debt write-off good for Ukraine and not
    allowed for Greece. This is a grotesque example of double standards.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/ukraine-prepared-to-suspend-payments-if-creditors-block-progress
    Werewolf
    Werewolf

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    Post  Werewolf Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:03 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    All people are this way. Just like the germans are exactly with such a stupid mindset. A good example is our "friend" Walther who does not see anything bad with US occupation of germany and the politics driving for a full tactical nuke confrontation against Russia and using germany as a human shield from where not only nukes but entire NATO logistics is performed while using eastern european slavic countries and meatshield with ABM's. No problem... according to him there are no benefits being souvereign and not warmongering against russia, corrupting our military with NATO crap, being prohibited to build any technologies that are considered tactical for own defence like IADS or corrupting and damaging germanies and all european countries economical sphere because US wants to sanction russia while they still remaining dependend on russian metallurgy and space program and their technologies, but of course let the stupid europeans and germans suffer of not selling stuff or buying stuff.

    No benefits of leaving a construct like EU that was designed to fail so it can squeeze all members out of their money and pay the money to private banks that have committed theft and that based on speculation with what they never had, like some gamblers are going broken into poker games with mafia bosses they promise to pay ten thousands if they let him play and that is the EU, while the retarded population of all countries are shouting bullshit along with our intelligent friend Walther that Greeks are lazy bomzhs that do not want take responsibility for their shitty economics missmanagement... sure they are to blame and IMF rains prosperity and gold bars for everyone without any strings attached that all leads through austerity to privatization to repay the interest and debts which was lend from IMF loans via FIAT money that came out of thin air without any counter value of precious metals or alike. Those filthy peasant greeks...we prosperous germans are so hard working that each year we are getting poorer and the percentage of pensioneers that gets either homeless or has to work till their 80's or has to apply for social benefits just to feed themselfs after working for 50-60 years. We have it so cozy here, do not leave the EU it is only going to be better.

    From the indoctrination and greek bashing i recommend for all greeks quit the fucking EU anyone that stands in the way, jail or let him disappear and by the time you recover which is within 5-10 years your economy will be on the upper branches while you can see the germans fall while blaming everyone else, so make yourselfs a good future and do not spoil this chance of laughing at the ignorant idiots that have been stupid enough to beLIEve anything the West has promised those billionaires of germans.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31018
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    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:49 am

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    What I don't get is why are the banks so special... they made out loans in the hope of making a lot of money and when the bubble burst they suddenly found they owned a lot of houses that no body wanted that were priced well above their actual value.

    In the US the banks got a bailout of 750 billion dollars... but most of that was likely profit... margin they missed out on because the value of the houses they owned was not there in the first place.

    Let me explain...

    I have a house in a rich area and I want a mortgage against it so I can buy an even more expensive house some where else or it is my first house and while it is expensive the prices in the area keep going up so the bank will give me a loan of 1 million dollars because it thinks that if I can't pay it... and there is no way I can pay it... they can just seize the house and sell it in 2 years time for 1.5 million and not only get their money back but a nice profit too... so they loan people money.. whether they could ever pay it back or not... suddenly the market turns and prices actually go down, so I have my million dollar house that is now worth half a million and I lose my job.

    If I sell my house I still owe the bank half a million dollars but I have no where to live and huge mortgage repayments due... and no where to live.

    The US governments solution is to give the banks 750 billion dollars!

    no one goes to jail... most CEOs get nice fat bonuses... and the people who actually got screwed remain screwed...

    If loans and various funds are going to be used to bail out banks it should be by transferring the debts to the bail outers... and in most cases the bailers should be allowed to forgive the debt of those who will never be able to pay back their loans... if you can forgive the debts of banks then families should be given the same...
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:18 am

    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    Sorry if I missed your reply George.

    The people have already lost most of their worth with this economy. The banking sector was and still is bankrupt in Greece, BECAUSE the current economy. I understand that you don't want to use the nuclear option. But by having a internal demand oriented economy you can't make it grow with exporter oriented strategies. The same kind of nonsense was done for the USSR. They were told to liberalize and so they did. Ask yourself, why China didn't liberalize until 2001?

    Now back to Greece. If you keep the current strategy, the repayment crisies will be only systemic. IE every 3, 6, 9, 12 months you will have such drama with a carousel of parties, zero growth, and even less repayments. What needs to be done, is help Greece with its most prosperous sectors, light transformation industry, Shipping and Tourism. But that would also mean recognizing that the Troïka and Eurogroup done Fucked UP. And that's the rub. The Eurogroup DOES. NOT. WANT. THAT. Because it has been doubed an "experts" group. And "experts" that fuck up that bad is something out of Lysenko's fiasco in the USSR, albeit Lysenko did actually manage to instill the basics of an Ecosystem to the Soviet agriculture (something the Europeans would only practice in the late 60's).

    Beyond that, having Greece "default" would also touch the base rate for the Euro. IE the borrowing cost for the EuroZone will go up, which would be a disaster for the German state among others. If the base rate gets higher, the borrowing gets costlier. IE the EFSF cost at the market is actually sup 0% yearly (like -0.0017%). If it gets up like up to 0.5% that would cost billions to the people that borrow through the new mechanism. Think about it. You think the EuroZone members and the rest of the EU would like to lose billions in repayment just for a haircut? Nope, they would make one of their suffer because the current cost is ZERO.

    You think this is about economy? Nope my friend, this is about finance and long accounts. Greece is just a nice pretext. Personally, I'd have Greece start working more with the local market (the Balkans and Turkey) instead of Western White Elephants, and yes that means a Greexit and a devaluation. Painful? Sure, but at least you'd see light. Now you'll only be able to expect an less elaborate version of Plato's Cave coupled with Sisiphus. The more you'll suffer to pay back the more you will be forced to borrow. Catch 22 on steroids.

    But the Germans do not want a Grexit, they're only fucking around with the other Europeans. The "surplus" states only want the others to quack in their boots. It's just an ideological coup doubled with a technocratic lie. But hey...feel free to not belive me.

    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1377
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    Join date : 2013-12-13

    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    All people are this way. Just like the germans are exactly with such a stupid mindset. A good example is our "friend" Walther who does not see anything bad with US occupation of germany and the politics driving for a full tactical nuke confrontation against Russia and using germany as a human shield from where not only nukes but entire NATO logistics is performed while using eastern european slavic countries and meatshield with ABM's. No problem... according to him there are no benefits being souvereign and not warmongering against russia, corrupting our military with NATO crap, being prohibited to build any technologies that are considered tactical for own defence like IADS or corrupting and damaging germanies and all european countries economical sphere because US wants to sanction russia while they still remaining dependend on russian metallurgy and space program and their technologies, but of course let the stupid europeans and germans suffer of not selling stuff or buying stuff.

    No benefits of leaving a construct like EU that was designed to fail so it can squeeze all members out of their money and pay the money to private banks that have committed theft and that based on speculation with what they never had, like some gamblers are going broken into poker games with mafia bosses they promise to pay ten thousands if they let him play and that is the EU, while the retarded population of all countries are shouting bullshit along with our intelligent friend Walther that Greeks are lazy bomzhs that do not want take responsibility for their shitty economics missmanagement... sure they are to blame and IMF rains prosperity and gold bars for everyone without any strings attached that all leads through austerity to privatization to repay the interest and debts which was lend from IMF loans via FIAT money that came out of thin air without any counter value of precious metals or alike. Those filthy peasant greeks...we prosperous germans are so hard working that each year we are getting poorer and the percentage of pensioneers that gets either homeless or has to work till their 80's or has to apply for social benefits just to feed themselfs after working for 50-60 years. We have it so cozy here, do not leave the EU it is only going to be better.

    From the indoctrination and greek bashing i recommend for all greeks quit the fucking EU anyone that stands in the way, jail or let him disappear and by the time you recover which is within 5-10 years your economy will be on the upper branches while you can see the germans fall while blaming everyone else, so make yourselfs a good future and do not spoil this chance of laughing at the ignorant idiots that have been stupid enough to beLIEve anything the West has promised those billionaires of germans.


    Have no hope. We will stay all together in a union long failed trying to support American interests to our last breath.
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4213
    Points : 4230
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut - Page 6 Empty Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:08 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    All people are this way. Just like the germans are exactly with such a stupid mindset. A good example is our "friend" Walther who does not see anything bad with US occupation of germany and the politics driving for a full tactical nuke confrontation against Russia and using germany as a human shield from where not only nukes but entire NATO logistics is performed while using eastern european slavic countries and meatshield with ABM's. No problem... according to him there are no benefits being souvereign and not warmongering against russia, corrupting our military with NATO crap, being prohibited to build any technologies that are considered tactical for own defence like IADS or corrupting and damaging germanies and all european countries economical sphere because US wants to sanction russia while they still remaining dependend on russian metallurgy and space program and their technologies, but of course let the stupid europeans and germans suffer of not selling stuff or buying stuff.

    No benefits of leaving a construct like EU that was designed to fail so it can squeeze all members out of their money and pay the money to private banks that have committed theft and that based on speculation with what they never had, like some gamblers are going broken into poker games with mafia bosses they promise to pay ten thousands if they let him play and that is the EU, while the retarded population of all countries are shouting bullshit along with our intelligent friend Walther that Greeks are lazy bomzhs that do not want take responsibility for their shitty economics missmanagement... sure they are to blame and IMF rains prosperity and gold bars for everyone without any strings attached that all leads through austerity to privatization to repay the interest and debts which was lend from IMF loans via FIAT money that came out of thin air without any counter value of precious metals or alike. Those filthy peasant greeks...we prosperous germans are so hard working that each year we are getting poorer and the percentage of pensioneers that gets either homeless or has to work till their 80's or has to apply for social benefits just to feed themselfs after working for 50-60 years. We have it so cozy here, do not leave the EU it is only going to be better.

    From the indoctrination and greek bashing i recommend for all greeks quit the fucking EU anyone that stands in the way, jail or let him disappear and by the time you recover which is within 5-10 years your economy will be on the upper branches while you can see the germans fall while blaming everyone else, so make yourselfs a good future and do not spoil this chance of laughing at the ignorant idiots that have been stupid enough to beLIEve anything the West has promised those billionaires of germans.


    Have no hope. We will stay all together in a union long failed trying to support American interests to our last breath.

    I don't think this can continue like this for a while without a haircut somewhere or an emission of IOU's and Greexit (prepared or not).

    If Tsipras is smart he starts preparing for IOU's and New Drachma. Slashes expenditure until march 2016 (finishes the printing of the new currency) and then refuses to repay until the haircut isn't discussed. Then boom, currency swap, IOU's, immediate amnesty law for fiscal exiles and what ever was in Euro becomes in drachma. See saw Recession for at least 5 years, then progressive rebound and this time, no EURO limitations and possibly the start of a substitution economy a la Turkish Lira. within a decade (2030) Greece would be back to 2012 levels of GPD with total self currency self reliance. Far better than the region and far better than paying back stupid amount of money they never received.

    Then we'll see how ze Germans will react. Something tells me Greece would offered half of Germany just not to blow the EMU to bits.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:32 am

    Greece and Creditors Agree to Budget Targets Ahead of Bailout Deal

    Talks between Greece and its creditors are ongoing ahead in the run-up to a deadline on August 20, when Greece must repay 3.4 billion euros ($3.7 billion) to the European Central Bank.

    Talks between the Greek government and its creditors have resulted in an agreement on the country's fiscal targets for the coming years, ahead of the deadline for Greece to buy back 3.4 billion euros [$3.7 billion] of it bonds from the European Central Bank, which mature on August 20.

    A source in the Greek government told Greece's media agency ANA that early on Tuesday an agreement had been reached, according to which Athens committed to spending cuts that will amount to a primary deficit of 0.25 percent of GDP in 2015, a 0.5 percent surplus in 2016, a 1.75 percent surplus in 2017 and a 3.5 percent surplus in 2018.

    The agreement on Greece's budget is the result of talks between Greek Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos, Economy Minister Giorgos Stathakis, the ECB, the International Monetary Fund and the European Stability Mechanism.

    On Monday Finance Minister Tsakalotos said during a break from the negotiations that the discussion" is going quite well."

    "There are issues [the creditors] want to discuss again and again, but I think there should be optimism that there will be a deal soon."

    Negotiations with the Troika also aim to finalize the list of new austerity measures the Greek government is required to impose in exchange for a tranche of funding of up to 86 billion euros [$94 billion] to stabilize Greek public finances struggling to cope with debt of 320 billion euros [$350 billion], about 175 percent of its GDP.

    The Eurozone leaders proposed the financial package at a summit on July 12-13, in return for hikes in the country's income tax and VAT, as well as spending cuts and economic reforms.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150811/1025611125/greece-creditors-bailout-budget-target.html#ixzz3ie8bPGFi
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:47 am

    With millions of ex Warsaw pact immigrants we never asked what Marxism means for a country. Greek illiterate masses kept flirting with leftist paranoia and now Greece is worst than ever. Really on the brink of the abyss.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:54 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:With millions of ex Warsaw pact immigrants we never asked what Marxism means for a country. Greek illiterate masses kept flirting with leftist paranoia and now Greece is worst than ever. Really on the brink of the abyss.

    Given your Right wing guys were worse at accountability, just allow silence to settle. Sure because it is Paranoïa that build a typical cartelist society in Greece? clown
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:05 am

    We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty everything that left stands for.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:34 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty  everything that left stands for.

    Yeah because Nea Dimocratia was Right Wing in scope or belief. Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Karamanlis litterally towed Greece in the European Economic Community against the left wing so as to "Save Greece from Communism". Typical ramblings from Libertarians. I'm affraid you're not Greek to the least of it.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:53 am

    Just to chime into this debate: in Canada it was the Conservatives who ran up the debt and the deficit during the 1980s
    while Liberal Trudeau was routinely smeared as being the reason for it. It was the Liberals under Chretien during the 1990s
    who restored the fiscal books and killed off the deficit. A similar process occurred in the USA. The large deficits left by
    the Republicans (Reagan and Bush Sr.) were wiped out by the Clinton Democrats. Bush Jr. messed that up big time with
    his tax cuts for the 1%.

    There is this pervasive myth that right wingers are fiscally responsible. Not in North America.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:27 am

    kvs wrote:Just to chime into this debate: in Canada it was the Conservatives who ran up the debt and the deficit during the 1980s
    while Liberal Trudeau was routinely smeared as being the reason for it.   It was the Liberals under Chretien during the 1990s
    who restored the fiscal books and killed off the deficit.    A similar process occurred in the USA.  The large deficits left by
    the Republicans (Reagan and Bush Sr.) were wiped out by the Clinton Democrats.   Bush Jr. messed that up big time with
    his tax cuts for the 1%.  

    There is this pervasive myth that right wingers are fiscally responsible.   Not in North America.

    Well not in France Either for instance (Imagine that. France the country that Right winger point their fingers at to deride socialism). The big issue with Conservatives around the damn Universe, is that make obvious choices at the worst moments.

    Take for instance Germany, they're in the midst of a very favourable period economically. Constervatives talking about fiscal orthodoxy yadda yadda bla bla bla. Well they haven't disbursed a single deutc...euro from their coffers to do that. They have simply rolled the damn debt. Why? Because the debt cost is lesser. That's fiscal responsibility 101...for the brave New World.

    So while Russians were paying back their foreign debt, Germany was mainly piling it up. Same Germany kicks the damn Greeks to the nut, while itself profits from this "crisis". Then we have political dildoheads that say, we need moar austerity.

    On the Conservative discharge, they are strongly impaired ideologically when it comes to crisis. Conservatives can't understand an external crisis. It's the theological syndrome (there's no other force outside your input and all humans have the same incentives) and tautological myth that you can do it by yourself. It's really scary actually.

    Therefore Conservatives tend to act in total contradiction with a constructivist system and tend to atomize the efforts that one needs to make to get out of the mark. But Ironically the steps taken in order to facilitate such blunders are made by "liberals". For instance the liberalization of the Banking sector, although it started under Johnson, the "coup de grâce" happened during Clinton. Same for France for instance. It were the French Socialists in the 80's that nationalized whole swathes of the economy, that were later sold for scrap to private groups, which in return are having France by the balls. Se Germany. It was Schroeder that fucked up most of the worker's status with his Härtz reforms...Same for Tony Bliar, supposedly taking a turn from Thaetcher and Major, he litterally prepared the way for the Tories to slash and burn what ever was left of the non vital welfare state. Which in return happened to profit to the Banks...

    Greece is a textbook example of this Marke/Financial madness. One you'd find in Africa or Cental America back in the 1990's.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:38 am

    Actually, according to a number of opinions, EU left-wing parties has long been corrupted and gradually become the puppets of White House. They keep telling lies and lies about protecting the rights of working class but do nothing in reality, they just lick the a** of Obama and other D.C. masters.

    Personally I no longer care about political factions, whether left or right. In most of the cases they are liars. The only thing I care is who can build a clean and effective public fund which is 100% used to change the society and improve the technology and production power.
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:57 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty  everything that left stands for.

    Yeah because Nea Dimocratia was Right Wing in scope or belief. Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Karamanlis litterally towed Greece in the European Economic Community against the left wing so as to "Save Greece from Communism". Typical ramblings from Libertarians. I'm affraid you're not Greek to the least of it.


    New Demogracy opened the borders to some 500.000 illegal immigrants from Albania which was pretty much the end of Greek labor and the final blow to the security funds.
    If this is not enough for you, New Democracy was the very first and only party until very recently that made a coalition government guess with whom...the communist party (KKE).
    Yeah the very fking communists you say they are fighting etc. Since then they have made a coalition WITH EVERY leftist party in Greek parliament. Yeah every single one of them!
    Now please stop pretending that you know Greek affairs better than me, you can probably take a Greek nationality if you like (yeah nationality not citizenship!) in an hour because this leftist scam try to destroy Greek nation, but this doesn't make you an expert on the matters of Greece.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:56 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty  everything that left stands for.

    Yeah because Nea Dimocratia was Right Wing in scope or belief. Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Karamanlis litterally towed Greece in the European Economic Community against the left wing so as to "Save Greece from Communism". Typical ramblings from Libertarians. I'm affraid you're not Greek to the least of it.


    New Demogracy opened the borders to some 500.000 illegal immigrants from Albania which was pretty much the end of Greek labor and the final blow to the security funds.
    If this is not enough for you, New Democracy  was the very first and only party until very recently that made a coalition government guess with whom...the communist party (KKE).
    Yeah the very fking communists you say they are fighting etc. Since then they have made a coalition WITH EVERY leftist party in Greek parliament. Yeah every single one of them!
    Now please stop pretending that you know Greek affairs better than me, you can probably take a Greek nationality if you like (yeah nationality not citizenship!) in an hour because this leftist scam try to destroy Greek nation, but this doesn't make you an expert on the matters of Greece.

    Yah...because the 500K Albanians came there overnight. Statistically NET Albanian migration into Greece went from ~20000 in 1992 to 25 000 in 1997. With at least 200 000 deportations a year. The biggest year, 1998 saw about 55 000 NET Albanians come in (that year Greece deported 300K Albanians despite regularization laws).

    ND making part with Socialists? Lel? Is this for real? Ahahahahahahahaah. C. I don't know who the hell you are, but next time you tell me you're Greek you better show me some evidence, because this looks like immigrant rants out of Astoria.

    There's been a bitter fight between ND and PASOK since the 74 elections and one thing that Greek politicians have always done, is keeping any possible "Union" Government out of sight. Until they fell falt on the Crisis issue. To achieve that both two parties have been changing the Electoral code and been gerrymandering so much that Greece looked like huge Swiss cheese electorally. Now STFU or provide me evidence of All-Leftist politics from ND. I'm ready to hear any...

    crod
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    Post  crod Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:30 pm

    It should be noted that the contracts with the Greek Ministry of Defense, "Rosoboronexport", apparently, are a violation of European Union anti-Russian sanctions.  russia

    ...it should also be noted that the country is beyond bankrupt - their EU bailout paymasters will not look too favorably upon this deal going ahead. Financially, the country is a basket case - end of. The cuts have been so crippling and severe there is little room for any more. Bankruptcy via default is a very real possibility. The appetite within the EU (and ever growing criticism from opposition parties alike across the continent and govts losing ground to these parties) in general reflects real hostility towards Greece. Many are questioning the methodology being applied to this ongoing saga. If they purchase these systems all the time barely meeting their loan obligations and crying poor that that they cannot provide anymore austerity etc etc...well you do not have to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to see where this will end.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:41 am

    A strong currency benefits only one specific type of economy... and that is clearly Germany.

    The Euro has been strong all this time because it suits those in power.

    It really pisses me off when such countries complain about countries that do not benefit from a strong currency and are struggling because if that.

    If they really care about Greece why not devalue the Euro and give them some relief...

    No?

    Perhaps countries like Greece don't need bailout packages... they need their own monetary control and a currency solution that benefits their economy...

    I have suggested before that the Euro zone needs two classes of Euro... a big Euro and a little Euro... the big Euro can have a fixed value ten times more than the little Euro... it means as you travel across Europe you can keep the same money but some times it is worth the same as local currency and sometime it can be worth ten times the local currency.

    New EU members can start on the small currency and then change if it suits them.

    Existing Euro members can change to suit their economy.

    Having a small euro would be great for tourism in Greece but then countries like Germany would complain it gives them too much of an advantage in terms of economics and trade... or they can just handing out bailouts...

    S-300 purchase from Greece was a "money laundering" purchase of our minister at that time. It had no sense in greek air defence which has western standars and systems and eespceially since Greece had selected and acquired Patriot SAM systems.

    It had sense because the Russian systems are effective and there is no such thing as a "western" system... or will you try fitting a 25 round magazine from an FAMAS into an M4 rifle or vice versa.

    With air defence systems they need specific information from the grid... if it does not come the way it is needed it does not take much to adapt something to convert the signals in both directions to allow them to work.
    crod
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    Post  crod Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:41 am

    honestly Garry, i'm not sure economically how a two tier currency could operate successfully; the real problems for Greece are three fold:

    1) govt spending way beyond revenue capacity, made worse by expectations of the greek people who think they can contribute fuck all, retire early (one of the lowest retirement ages of all EU nations) on a pension that far outweighs their salary contribution over their working life.
    2) massive black market economy (tourism) denying govt coffers of much needed revenue streams. the ship building industry literally got away with obscene tax avoidance over the decades (their equivalent of Apple back in the day!) - very similar to Italy in that regard and
    3) part of a currency that is heavily weighted against them unfortunately.

    the only real winners form the E currency is Germany and Germany alone. it is why the project is so dear to them. in many ways the third reich ideologies never went away - they have never ceded the want to control Europe.

    i'm not bashing the Greeks, I feel dearly for them - we (Ireland) got stuffed by the germans too by being made to secure (mostly german) bank bonds where the normally the market would have and should have dictated that. then forced us into a bailout that cost literally billions, tens of billions....germans win again. thankfully our economy was better able to respond due to it being more diverse than that of the Greek one.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:15 pm

    The policy of austerity is a failure everywhere it is applied. It is based on the delusion of monetarists who believe that money creates
    the economy and not humans and their demands. So when the GDP is crashing these monetarist zealots decide to reduce the spending
    power of the population as if demand has nothing to do with the GDP. But predictably, the GDP begins to crash even faster and
    the reduction in spending power amplifies. The only rational policy to address recessions is big spending to counteract the decline
    in spending by the general population (which is losing jobs, etc.). Greece is in a recession and not in a boom, the policy being foisted
    on it by the unelected and unrepresentative bureaucrats in Brussels is criminal.

    One of the signs that we live in the Mammon worshiping era is that debt is treated in a sacrosanct fashion. So even if the Greek
    economy implodes, it must at all costs service its debts. This is total BS. At the stage of economic collapse all debts should
    be automatically suspended. They should be re-serviced with zero penalties whenever the economy can handle them. Note that
    I am not talking about defaulting but suspension. The loan givers are not starving pensioners but fat, bloated banksters who can
    wait several years on any of their loans without feeling it.

    Over at zerohedge and other "libertarian" sites they keep on bashing Keynes as statist big spender. This is a total lie. Keynes
    saw the right formula for taxation and growth. When the economy is booming the government must build up reserves so that
    when the economy goes into recession or even depression (due to exogenous shocks such as during the 1930s) it can spend,
    spend, spend but not tax, tax, tax. This formula is brain-dead obvious since the government is just a big consumer in the economy
    and its spending stimulates GDP. But no f*cking OECD government actually follows it. They cut taxes when the economy is booming
    and then either implement a low-spending policy when the economy is contracting or pile on debt like there is no tomorrow. The latter
    approach is not so bad if they paid down the debt during boom times but their tax cutting prevents such intelligent decisions.

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