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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

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    Vann7


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    Post  Vann7 Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:18 am

    higurashihougi wrote:@Everybody: may I ask can you tell me these info are right or wrong ? Is Russian really banned in Estonian workplace ?

    http://zavtra.ru/content/view/yazyik/

    http://www.baltictimes.com/russian_media_claims_that_use_of_russian_banned_in_latvian_workplaces/

    Not only estonia but all baltic states have hostile laws against not only Russian language but also against ethnic
    RUssians.. same with Poland..  Even Russian media is banned.. so much about "democracy" and freedom of expression in europe.  Rolling Eyes Have been reading news for years about this..  forgot which one i think it was Luthianian .. they even ban russian musicians to enter in their nation.. reason why a musical world fest was not celebrated in their country recently as retaliation..and moved to Sochi. lol1    The baltics arrogance is kicking back
    their own hostilities against Russia for sucking USA dick.  Poland not long ago its leaders were caught off mic saying something about this.. lol


    a 3d interactive model was made recently by journalist using drones data.. of the damage in Donetsk Airport..

    http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/164053-videos-modelo-3d-aeropuerto-donetsk



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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:11 am

    Workers in Dnipropetrovsk protested.

    "Thanks" to anti-Russia policy, Pivdenmash factory lost most of its contracts and now it is in heavy debt.

    http://www.politnavigator.net/blog/dnepropetrovsk-kollektiv-yuzhmasha-podnyal-bunt

    Now who want to be "free" from Russia ?
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:45 am

    What the f*ck is this shit ?

    http://rt.com/news/224891-poland-ukraine-liberated-auschwitz/
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    Post  mack8 Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:25 am

    If this is confirmed, then VICTORY!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11362022/Ukraine-abandons-fiercely-contested-Donetsk-airport.html
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    Post  Vann7 Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:02 pm

    mack8 wrote:If this is confirmed, then VICTORY!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11362022/Ukraine-abandons-fiercely-contested-Donetsk-airport.html

    Thats old news!.. 2 days old.. since the ukies stopped invading the airport...


    On other news..
    False Flag alert!!!!!!
    Ukrainian army have been spotted wearing Donetsk Insignias and uniforms in zones that only ukies control..
    Colonnel CASSAD is saying that a major provocation could happen any time soon.. against civilians in the zones
    that Ukrainians control.. and civilians end killed and later blamed on Novorosiya army..



    In more news.. LATVIA Government is arresting civilians collecting humanitarian aid..for Donetsk an Lugansk republic.. under the charge of "supporting terrorism". One of the peace activist had to flee to Russia to avoid being arrested.
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:09 pm

    Yes, the three baltic prostitutes,  failed nazi nations like we know them to be. Spreading leggs getting censored by USrael, while raising right arm and hailing hitler.

    Watch your language please...
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:18 pm

    Remember, I am allowing that carousel only T-72 is safer, I just don't think the difference is gigantic.

    I would argue that if the crew is prepared to sacrifice more than half its ready to fire ammo then the difference is significant enough.

    And let's not forget one major point that you are leaving out- MZ has 28 round capacity in its carousel, the AZ only 22. That is a major advantage in a carousel only scenario (well, any scenario) for the T-64 and T-80. Rememeber, part of the Russian Army's choice of the 125mm 2A82 vs the 152mm 2A83 for Amrata is because of the former's ammunition load advantage. So clearly it is very important.

    But if we are talking about removing ammo that is unsafe in the crew compartment then you would have to take all the ammo out of the T-64 and T-80 for it to be deemed safe so the T-72 would be superior. In that context you could argue that the T-72 with 22 rounds ready to fire should be compared with a T-64/80 with full ammo loads because the latter are vulnerable whether they have all their ammo in the autoloader or not.

    For the T-90AM design it was stated that the 22 rounds ready to fire plus 8 more rounds in an armoured box in front of the engine at the rear of the turret were sufficient because of improvements in ammo and fire control systems making hits more likely so less ammo would be needed.

    The Armata with a 125mm gun would carry rather more than 22 rounds.

    No, I am saying the difference isn't gigantic. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a statistical difference, just not a huge one.

    If your life was at stake how important would small differences in safety be?

    Fuel consumption is an issue, no doubt about it. My point however was that going by pure performance, the T-90 never demonstrated its superiority over contemporary T-80U (which came before the T-90 by several years in any case). The Russian Army's choice of the cheaper and longer ranged vehicle may very well have been the right decision, but that is another story.

    So WTF were the tests for? Why bother shooting at T-80s and T-90s if they were always going to pick the T-90s?

    The T-80s have been kept in service for 20 years, there is no reason why they couldn't have kept them operational indefinitely if they wanted to.

    the truth is that their thermal sights from Belarus were expensive and not that good. their protection was good but nothing amazing. their sophisticated Fire Control System was from the 1980s and could easily be vastly improved upon with more modern electronics.

    No....the turret bustle blows off away from the crew compartment.

    and in real combat how often do you think the loader keeps that sliding door closed?

    Abram tanks have been destroyed by IEDs outside the tank as light as 50kgs... what chance do you think the crew will have when 35 rounds in the turret bustle explode all at once?

    From sides the Abrams turret armor layout extends a "composite" array all the way down the turret side.

    A composite array that wont even stop old model RPGs... you posted an image yourself just recently showing the attack angles for tanks showing the front being the target more than 60 percent of the time, with rear attacks being something like 6 percent.

    I also thought that myth about T-80 and MZ loader was true, well....apparently it is not. The withdrawal was because of fuel consumption. That is it. In terms of combat performance they performed about as well as T-72s given the tactics and situations they were employed in.

    If the tank was OK and just had fuel consumption issues then making a new engine could have solved the issue... or even licence producing a Ukrainian engine... in the 1990s relations with the Ukraine weren't that bad.

    I doubt they would make such a decision based on just one factor.

    Hell, Russia used T-62s in Chechnya, so the T-80s withdrawal obviously had nothing to do with crew safety.

    T-62s have 115mm guns with metal shell cases that are not nearly as vulnerable to hot fragments showering over them...

    No, I am flat out saying: if you have good scientific analysis of the respective tanks, their ammo loads, the type of hits they received in Donbass combat, by all means post it. I am going off available info, as in Chechnya...and the T-72s extensive combat history around the world.

    And I am going off the design of the autoloaders of the vehicles, with the autoloaders of the T-64 and T-80 being known to be flawed.

    And once again, if you call the MZ flawed, then the AZ is at the very least "half-flawed"....since it is not invulnerable to being hit or sparked as a result of turret penetration.

    Well no ammo arrangement is perfect, both offer better protection from enemy fire than turret bustle stored ammo, but one offers less protection than the other... get over it.

    First of all, I am dubious that all or even most crews operated with only carousel loads. It has become accepted "history" but there is plenty of room for doubt. But, it is certainly possible.

    So smokey figures from Georgia and Donbass can be used for conclusions, but evidence from Chechnya you choose not to believe... is that because it does not support your assertions, or is it tea leaves or your crystal ball telling you otherwise... Cool

    It was tactics + more competent personnel for the most part IMO.

    If by tactics you mean actually using ERA with explosive in it and not carrying loose ammo in the crew compartment, then I can agree.

    The Russian Army clearly disagrees, since it rejected 2A83 152mm gun on the ammo question. And it was supposed to have a standard ammo load in the low 20s....sounds similar.

    Actually the Russian Army rejected the 152mm gun because of the cost of introducing a new calibre when the existing calibre still has some growth potential with little development of new ammo over the last two decades meaning a few leaps in performance are possible over the next couple of years for the 125mm gun.

    The T-90 was initially essentially a T-72....it did not get anything fundamentally new (aside from sights to bring it up to T-80 parity) until the T-90A inherited Obj 187 features.

    Late model T-72s were not inferior to T-80s in terms of armour protection... ERA likely was more of a deciding factor than base armour.

    If you want my opinion on which is better, well, T-80U had clearly superior mobility, but at the expense of price and fuel consumption.

    Expensive to buy means less tanks in service and high fuel consumption means less training... I could already guess your opinion BTW... Shocked

    What is that even supposed to mean? That is some Van7 level of argument. First of all, I am Russian. Second, the T-80 IS ALSO RUSSIAN. They picked UVZ over Omsk.

    Actually The T-64, T-72, and T-80 are SOVIET. The T-90 is Russian.

    There were attempts to "fix" the T-80... remember the Black Eagle... a prototype that moved the ammo from beneath the crew compartment to the turret bustle...

    The T-72B3 was supposed to be "as good as the T-90 or close" for 1/3rd the price, according to Serdykov. That turned out to be complete BS, and here we are today. And without the T-90AM the Russian army has not received a vehicle fundamentally better than the almost 30 year old T-80U, some modern thermals aside. Also a fact.

    Actually with the new gun and new ammo and new thermals and new communications the T-72B3 is light years ahead of any cold war Soviet tank.

    the new thermals allows night and all weather training, and the new communications allows practise of all that net centricity stuff plus battle management stuff too and the new gun should allow it to hit what it is shooting at... what more do you want from a stopgap tank? Especially when you already have them and they are cheap.

    We are going around in circles at this point.

    Indeed we seem to be.

    Lets agree that you think there is not enough evidence to separate the T-80 from the T-72 in terms of survivability and I disagree.

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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:32 pm

    Can you move that to another thread, it is wrong here, entirely.
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:32 pm

    It is said that now Novorossiyan fighters is attacking into Debaltsevo in three directions. Seems like Novorossiya is trying to make another Illovaisk cauldron.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 10363996_795793197152737_1091472104305335834_n

    Meanwhile, Novo troops is still pressing at the Avdiivka direction. No notable event have happened yet.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 8996_795777550487635_7973565972355072241_n

    At Horlivka, insurgents is attacking at the west and northwest. If the offensives bore good results, they are expected to greatly help the other offensives in Avdiivka.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 10931358_795793873819336_7298715198871152948_n

    At Luhansk, checkpoint 31 (red box) was recaptured by Novorossiya. But the fighting is still firece with front went back and forth many times.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 10933986_795798517152205_6205638922365108171_n

    Offensive renewed at Mariupol, now only in one direction.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 10410735_795777997154257_6509744679618517889_n
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:48 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Yes, the three baltic prostitutes,  failed nazi nations like we know them to be. Spreading leggs getting  censored  by USrael, while raising right arm and hailing hitler.

    I will not use the word "nazi country" to describe the Baltic states (remember we have a Baltic friend here).

    But it is safe to say that the groups of Neo-Nazi and Russophobe are quite strong in the Baltics, and Poland, and in the Western part of Ukraina (Lviv, for example).

    I guess you already knew that the shit Yatsenyuk had just said stupid thing about USSR invaded Germany in WW2... and then Latvia banned Russian language in workplaces (this need to be confirmed)... and then the Poles Foreign Minister said stupid thing about Russia did not liberated Auschwitz... Now the f*king Zionists and their EU puppets is trying to rewrite history. They try to feed and breed the facist scums in Europe in order to harm Russia, just like in WW2.

    Facism is capitalism in decay. And Zionists and Nazi are similar in the idea of race supermacy.
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    Post  Regular Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:45 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Yes, the three baltic prostitutes,  failed nazi nations like we know them to be. Spreading leggs getting  censored  by USrael, while raising right arm and hailing hitler.

    Watch your language please...
    GarryB
    Haha thats bit harsh. Let me say that we as people have zero control over our foreign policy. No matter who is in charge it's the same.
    I voted for the Afghanistan veteran Naglis Sulija who said that Ukrainian ATO was illegal and unconstitutional, he also said that we have other means if things go bad with Russia, it's Kaliningrad transit. We can limit it if our exports will be blocked. He said main thing was to have pragmatism. Now we have populist commie shit who screams about russia being the terrorist, she steps on democratic values like free speach and interferes everywhere she can. I am ashamed.
    Politically my country went back to the past and democracy doesn't really exist in Baltics, except Estonia. And language bans are for institutions, even in chechnya You have to speak federal language. So don't get your knickers in the twist. Not yet.
    Ps. When US will drop this Ukrainian project baltics will change their tone, cause bad relationship with Russia equals to bad economy as Russia was our main market.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:15 pm

    Hehe, so much hate towards the poor ol' baltics.
    For a little clarification, there are two main groups of people, whose interest is anti-russia mongering:

    1. Former pupils of comparty, following the words of anyone who'd pay the most.

    2. Relatives and descendants of the so-called "forest brothers", since those people are so far right that ronald reagan looks like karl marx for them Wink


    And while are are at it, just look who decided to join the prostitution
    http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1887112.html#ixzz3PYdCjPkv
    In schools, Belarus to study subjects "History of Belarus" and "Geography" in Russian will be banned. This was January 21 at a press conference in Minsk, said the Minister of Education's post-Soviet republics Mikhail Zhuravkov.

    But wait, is it actually possible for Batka to betray his "strategic ally"? No way, it must be some cunning plan he devised, you know, good cop- bad cop and all that stuff Wink


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:26 pm; edited 6 times in total
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:17 pm

    I don't find that harsh at all, this is the exact narrative those countries have politically moved themselfs in, well not entirely themselfs with lot of help from US, but that is the political situation, they are failed nations with lot of sympathy towards national socialism and glorification of WW2 Nazis and Ucrapies politics controlled by zionists.
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    Post  ali.a.r Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:32 pm

    Hey guys. I was watching some of translated Novorussia channel videos by Kazzura, and I was also reading up on recent events in Donbas, and I often keep coming across this word, cyborg or terminator (usually through translated subtitles and whatnot). What does this mean? Are the ukrainians using some sort of remote weapons systems or something?

    Forgive my ignorance on the matter, if I sound stupid, but Google translate can only do so much, and these cyborgs have been propping up lately in vids, usually about Donetsk airport. dunno
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:38 pm

    ali.a.r wrote:Hey guys. I was watching some of translated Novorussia channel videos by Kazzura, and I was also reading up on recent events in Donbas, and I often keep coming across this word, cyborg or terminator (usually through translated subtitles and whatnot). What does this mean? Are the ukrainians using some sort of remote weapons systems or something?

    Forgive my ignorance on the matter, if I sound stupid, but Google translate can only do so much, and these cyborgs have been propping up lately in vids, usually about Donetsk airport. dunno

    Appearantly, Ukraine will be overrun by mongol hordes, led by skyputin, which will destroy the country. In the last glim of hope, Ukrainian scientists develop a time machine, where ultra-advanced humanoid robots are sent back in time to try to reverse this sad fate.
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    Post  Regular Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:55 pm

    And about nazis in baltics. It's a joke is it? With such demographics. Good luck gathering crowd like they do twice a day in Ukraine.
    Ukrainian nazis are like no other. In my lifetime I never seen anything like them, they actually remind me of ISIS fanatics.
    I love my country, but I can't understand how can anyone love a country with no retrospective, almost no history and do it with such fanatism? There is sanity limit when slogans, anthem can be used. Ukrainians shout glory to Ukraine more than Isis shout alahu akbar. Sometimes i thibk they are in trance like state and that chanting has sibister demonic meaning Very Happy sorry for my rant, but please don't compare us to them.
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    Post  Regular Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:15 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I don't find that harsh at all, this is the exact narrative those countries have politically moved themselfs in, well not entirely themselfs with lot of help from US, but that is the political situation, they are failed nations with lot of sympathy towards national socialism and glorification of WW2 Nazis and Ucrapies politics controlled by zionists.


    National socialism? Seriously?
    Are You aware that baltics DONT have socialism? Pensioners have to starve just to pay for overinflated heating, super expensive medicine, young people have to leave to survive. Nationalism is when Ooga Booga from Trinididad gets better fed than our orphans? Or when our strategic objects are sold to US companies? Or when brussel pushes their love for europe and gays propaganda and our eu supportrd liberals make fun of our traditions?
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:15 pm

    Regular wrote:And about nazis in baltics. It's a joke is it? With such demographics. Good luck gathering crowd like they do twice a day in Ukraine.
    Ukrainian nazis are like no other. In my lifetime I never seen anything like them, they actually remind me of ISIS fanatics.
    I love my country, but I can't understand how can anyone love a country with no retrospective, almost no history and do it with such fanatism? There is sanity limit when slogans, anthem can be used. Ukrainians shout glory to Ukraine more than Isis shout alahu akbar. Sometimes i thibk they are in trance like state and that chanting has sibister demonic meaning Very Happy sorry for my rant, but please don't compare us to them.

    I dunno, look like pretty generic nazis to me.
    Well, maybe the difference is that those have access to very cheap vodka Smile Oh, and some weapons too probably...
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    Post  Kyo Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:28 pm

    On the economic front, IMF admits failure of the original Ukr aid plan. Has been forced to get behind the more generous Soros Plan. Can it work without Russia?
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    Post  Manov Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:12 pm

    Im really curious about the RUAF deplyments near the conflict zone. I guess they are a very big concern for the Ukis air operations. Well the crimean SU-27-30m2, but in the east (su-27s,mig-29smt,mig-29s,mig-31bm,su-34)??. At leat some Su-27 and Mig-29 fron Krasnodar krai i supossed
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    Post  franco Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:39 pm

    ali.a.r wrote:Hey guys. I was watching some of translated Novorussia channel videos by Kazzura, and I was also reading up on recent events in Donbas, and I often keep coming across this word, cyborg or terminator (usually through translated subtitles and whatnot). What does this mean? Are the ukrainians using some sort of remote weapons systems or something?

    Forgive my ignorance on the matter, if I sound stupid, but Google translate can only do so much, and these cyborgs have been propping up lately in vids, usually about Donetsk airport. dunno

    The "Cyborgs" were the last Ukrainian fighters left hold up in the Donetsk Airport. And they had put up a brave fight to give them their due.They were used as propaganda "heroes" for the Ukrainian populace, who have had few to cheer for. It was when half of them decided that they had enough and were allowed to leave, the rest were soon mopped up. But it triggered the Ukrainian government attacking to save them or face... that lead to the renewed heavy fighting over the past 7-10 days.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:43 pm

    There was a cyborg parade in Donetsk today. Captured cyborgs that is. Mostly it was pretty civil and the Novorussian rebels kept order, but I think a few knuckles were thrown and hit home; either at this event or another one recently.

    I would normally feel sorry for them and would advocate treating the enemy rank & file with honor.
    However if I understood correctly, what these airport defenders have basically been doing is covering for the Ukrainian artillery firing from that location or near it - right at civilian towns and cities.
    SO, sucks to be them. Hopefully after they've had their turn at some light humiliation; their families can come and pick them up.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:50 pm

    Kyo wrote:On the economic front, IMF admits failure of the original Ukr aid plan. Has been forced to get behind the more generous Soros Plan. Can it work without Russia?

    Russia has a good opportunity here. To give the impression that it's potentially interested in a restructuring of Ukrainian debt, and could be willing to wait a little long before calling in that $3 billion loan.. perhaps even extend the Ukraine's gas discount for a few more months.
    That might give the Western debtors the confidence needed to agree to the IMF's new plan, and also for some new Western loans to be approved and given to the Ukraine.

    Then WHAM! Drop negotiations under various pretexts, demand immediate repayment of loans, dump all Ukrainian assets & bonds, etc...
    The Ukraine will be just as screwed, and the IMF's new money would be lost too.
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    Post  Vann7 Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:55 am

    Cyborgs are just the nickname that Kiev use for their "Heroes" that stood strong for months in the airport
    controlling it.. but no longer they control.. pro Russian forces captured a dozen of them who surrendered.. with hundreds cyborgs killed.

    about what regular said.. of their government.. thats not surprising. since world war 2 ended and soviet leave germany , USA have used all their economical and political capabilities which are huge.. to influence all the baltic
    states into their orbit.. why those countries? because they are strategically important since border Russia.. had the baltic states of today..be located in central or southern europe they will have not so rusophobic factions in power.
    This is why every EuroMaidan Ukie always will tell you..."look at the baltic states" as a model of economy.. they do not
    see USA hands in baltics and poland economy..  In the same way USA can sabotage or  isolate nations economy.. specially if they are small... either directly openly or secretly.. in the same way they can help nations who cooperate
    with their global agendas..  So is not suprise that US always sanctions are only for countries that are not in their club
    of close friends. Same with revolutions.. only happens in Nations that US cannot control or not completely loyal.
    Assad and Qadafi are dictators.. but i dare you find me a single case where USA have called the kings of Qatar,Saudi Arabia .Kuwait ,Jordan ,UAE dictators.. Government with zero democracy. US NGOs for american "Democracy" only operates in rebel nations that refuse US empire and global hegemony.

    A Good look in the finance and properties of those leaders in Poland ,Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia will explain in no time why they are so friendly to USA and Hostile to Russia..  I bet they all have luxury villages in France or Italy or secret properties in USA with a lake in front that only richest people can afford..it will be interesting to see also
    where former presidents of those countries now retired live or how wealthy they are today. normal people in the other hand are simply brainwashed with their media.. and the politicians that US control.

     Putin's missile shot down Mh-17 and financing terrorist in Ukraine...  And Assad is using chemical weapons against civilians "fighting for freedom" . Russia not as bad as ebola according to Obama..
    but worse than ISIS ,This is How stupid the world have gone..  And what is even more stupid is to see some forum members defending US illegal actions in the world.
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    Vann7


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Vann7 Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:29 am

    597 Ukrainian troops killed in clashes at Donetsk airport — DPR defense ministry



    The DPR army had destroyed 49 Ukrainian tanks and 47 infantry combat vehicles and armored vehicles in retaliatory fire, Eduard Basurin said

    DONETSK, January 22. /TASS/. As many as 597 Ukrainian servicemen were killed in clashes with Donetsk militias at the Donetsk airport, Eduard Basurin, a spokesman for the defense ministry of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) said on Thursday.
    “A total of 597 army servicemen and troops of the National Guard were killed,” he told a briefing. “I am speaking only about those whose bodies have been retrieved from the vicinity of the airport and in the settlement of Peski. As many as 44 people have yielded themselves prisoner.”
    He said that the DPR army had destroyed 49 Ukrainian tanks and 47 infantry combat vehicles and armored vehicles in retaliatory fire. More than 1,500 Ukrainian troops were wounded and taken to field hospitals.


    http://itar-tass.com/en/world/772851

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 17 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

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