Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+34
Tsavo Lion
KiloGolf
archangelski
kvs
Khepesh
starman
kristov_ginter
OminousSpudd
Walther von Oldenburg
max steel
SturmGuard
Svyatoslavich
BlackArrow
Regular
flamming_python
Werewolf
KoTeMoRe
Cucumber Khan
higurashihougi
PapaDragon
JohninMK
Odin of Ossetia
Morpheus Eberhardt
Vann7
Cowboy's daughter
AirCargo
HeNeArKrXeRn_
Giulio
DTA
GarryB
TheGeorgian
TR1
magnumcromagnon
Cyberspec
38 posters

    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    starman
    starman

    Posts : 588
    Points : 586
    Join date : 2016-08-10

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    If the Soviets had withdrawn their forces from the east to defend against Germany then Japan could simply have not bothered attacking Pearl Harbour and most of Asia as the oil they wanted would be there for them in Siberia...

    Surprised I always thought Soviet oil production was in the Caucasus. Besides, after Khalkin Gol the Japanese had little stomach for fighting Russia. They couldn't be sure Zhukov wouldn't come back to get them again.

    The Pacific War would not have happened and the US may never have entered the war.

    The Japanese wanted the oil of Borneo and had to get it.


    The Soviet Union in the 1940s was much less urban than most of Europe and so the loss of Moscow would have had little effect on the Soviet war effort... the factories of the west were not moved to Moscow... they went further east and once they were in full production... the taking of Moscow was never going to happen.

    The German generals certainly wanted to take Moscow and thought it could be done. Moscow was the center of the Soviet transportation and communications system. "Take it and the Soviets would...be unable to move troops and supplies to the distant fronts which would weaken, wither and collapse." In fact, prior to barbarossa German wargamers concluded that if Moscow were not attained, "the result would be long drawn out war beyond the capacity of the German armed forces to wage."
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:34 am

    Surprised I always thought Soviet oil production was in the Caucasus. Besides, after Khalkin Gol the Japanese had little stomach for fighting Russia. They couldn't be sure Zhukov wouldn't come back to get them again.

    Not just oil... timber, minerals and oil were the primary reasons for the Japanese to strike Khalkin Gol in the first place... when they were soundly defeated they turned south. If they knew all of the Soviet resources had been turned to the west then it would be likely they would try again.

    Ironically it was the Rippentrop Molotov pact that was important... when the Japanese found out about this they decided to not trust the germans and so when germany wanted the Japs to attack the Soviets in the 42-43 period, they gave excuses and did nothing.

    Besides the Soviets transferred Siberian units in time to defend Moscow... they would not have been able to do much more if they had arrived earlier as the combination of the colder weather and the overstretched German lines meant their impact on the battlefield had maximum effect.

    The Japanese wanted the oil of Borneo and had to get it.

    Plenty of oil all over Siberia... and Alaska for that matter.

    The German generals certainly wanted to take Moscow and thought it could be done. Moscow was the center of the Soviet transportation and communications system. "Take it and the Soviets would...be unable to move troops and supplies to the distant fronts which would weaken, wither and collapse." In fact, prior to barbarossa German wargamers concluded that if Moscow were not attained, "the result would be long drawn out war beyond the capacity of the German armed forces to wage."

    Leningrad, Stalingrad and Kiev were also all hubs of communications and transport and when they were surrounded or captured the effect did not seem to be defeat... or simply not able to operate normally because of combat or siege or simply being occupied in the latter case.
    starman
    starman

    Posts : 588
    Points : 586
    Join date : 2016-08-10

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not just oil... timber, minerals and oil were the primary reasons for the Japanese to strike Khalkin Gol in the first place... when they were soundly defeated they turned south. If they knew all of the Soviet resources had been turned to the west then it would be likely they would try again.

    If memory serves, Stalin knew by September, via Sorge, that Japan wouldn't attack. He then ordered Zhukov back west. If the Japanese knew of this Soviet withdrawal from Siberia by October, or even November, they didn't modify their plans. So maybe they wouldn't have had Zhukov begun pulling out in July. It seemed a new policy was fixed.

    Ironically it was the Rippentrop Molotov pact that was important... when the Japanese found out about this they decided to not trust the germans and so when germany wanted the Japs to attack the Soviets in the 42-43 period, they gave excuses and did nothing.

    They had a very good reason-- they already had to deal with the US; I'd call that a good reason not an excuse, for avoiding war with Russia.

    Besides the Soviets transferred Siberian units in time to defend Moscow... they would not have been able to do much more if they had arrived earlier as the combination of the colder weather and the overstretched German lines meant their impact on the battlefield had maximum effect.

    Yeah historically it worked out OK. But what if Guderian and others had been heeded and the drive on Moscow had started sooner? Zhukov could've made the difference.

    Plenty of oil all over Siberia... and Alaska for that matter.

    Not as easily recoverable as oil from the Dutch East Indies.


    Leningrad, Stalingrad and Kiev were also all hubs of communications and transport and when they were surrounded or captured the effect did not seem to be defeat... or simply not able to operate normally because of combat or siege or simply being occupied in the latter case.

    But Moscow was the really major hub, not just a local one. I think the reich's pro generals knew what was best to go after.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:36 am

    If memory serves, Stalin knew by September, via Sorge, that Japan wouldn't attack. He then ordered Zhukov back west. If the Japanese knew of this Soviet withdrawal from Siberia by October, or even November, they didn't modify their plans. So maybe they wouldn't have had Zhukov begun pulling out in July. It seemed a new policy was fixed.

    Well lets work with what you remember, can we therefore assume that if they did not transfer forces earlier it was because they were not sure Japan would not attack?

    Policies change with new information... before the Germans attacked the Soviets any suggestion the Germany was going to attack the Soviets was dismissed as British propaganda trying to get the Soviet Union into the war on the side of Britain or at least to take some pressure from Germany off Britain.

    After Germany attacked then any suggestion of further attacks would not be dismissed I suspect.

    They had a very good reason-- they already had to deal with the US; I'd call that a good reason not an excuse, for avoiding war with Russia.

    They knew about the agreement well before 42 and had already decided to use germany but not directly support her in anything that didn't further Japanese interests.

    Yeah historically it worked out OK. But what if Guderian and others had been heeded and the drive on Moscow had started sooner? Zhukov could've made the difference.

    History is too complex to make any guesses as to what might have happened.

    Better reinforcement of Moscow might have led to the capture of Moscow but it was not Moscow they needed control of, it was the oilfields to the south.

    Not as easily recoverable as oil from the Dutch East Indies.

    Hahahahahahaha... Yeah... taking on the US navy was easy...

    But Moscow was the really major hub, not just a local one. I think the reich's pro generals knew what was best to go after.

    Yeah... so they kept claiming... they didn't defeat Leningrad either... why do you think they could so easily take Moscow?

    Fighting in large cities is a meat grinder where coordination of air power and armour is not as much use as your ability with a hand grenade and the sharp edge of a shovel.
    starman
    starman

    Posts : 588
    Points : 586
    Join date : 2016-08-10

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Better reinforcement of Moscow might have led to the capture of Moscow

    I interpret that as increased German focus on Moscow. Seems oddly worded. Smile


    but it was not Moscow they needed control of, it was the oilfields to the south.

    The first objective should've been destruction of the enemy's military power. Economic objectives would then fall into their hands automatically.


    Hahahahahahaha... Yeah... taking on the US navy was easy...

    The IJN probably had a better chance against the USN than the Japanese army had against the Soviet army. At least one book opines that Japanese defeat wasn't inevitable by the way.



    Yeah... so they kept claiming... they didn't defeat Leningrad either...

    The idea was just to starve it out and destroy it not take it.

    why do you think they could so easily take Moscow?

    I didn't say they could easily take it, just that it should've had priority.

    Fighting in large cities is a meat grinder where coordination of air power and armour is not as much use as your ability with a hand grenade and the sharp edge of a shovel.

    It wouldn't have been necessary to storm Moscow just surround it, initially with panzer forces. That alone would've put an end to the great hub.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:19 am

    The first objective should've been destruction of the enemy's military power.

    The first six months of the war they encircled the vast majority of the trained standing armed forces that was in service at the start of the war.

    An enormous amount of obsolete equipment like Polikarpov I-15 and I-16 fighters and T-26 tanks were also destroyed in that period.

    The core of Soviet military power was in her people and industry... a lot of the latter moved east past the Urals so occupying Moscow would have no effect upon it.

    Economic objectives would then fall into their hands automatically.

    It is not about money as such it is about access to needed resources... it was nothing to do with the value of oil or timber or steel it was access to oilfields out of bomber range of the western allies for example.

    The IJN probably had a better chance against the USN than the Japanese army had against the Soviet army. At least one book opines that Japanese defeat wasn't inevitable by the way.

    The problem for the Japanese was the trade embargo imposed by the British and the US that blocked the import or oil and rubber and other resources. If the Japanese had more brains and less pride they could have made an offer to the Soviets... perhaps even to return territory taken by force in 1905 in return for trade in coal and steel and oil and other materials. The war in the Pacific would never have needed to happen.

    The idea was just to starve it out and destroy it not take it.

    An admission that they didn't have the time or resources to take everything in their path... why are people so sure they were happy to siege Leningrad but should have taken Moscow?

    They tried to take Stalingrad but that was not a battle... that was a baited trap, where their progress was slow but the Soviets let them get more and more of the city until the point where they could not just leave and let it go... all the while building up the resources to encircle and capture the whole city were being built up in secret just across the river.

    I didn't say they could easily take it, just that it should've had priority.

    But what value would there be in the long costly battle to capture it?

    The enormous resources to do that would need to come all the way from Germany.

    Capturing the Caucasus would create a local oil source that could be used to greatly shorten supply lines and also supply Germany with oil too.... that would be vastly more valuable than trying to take Moscow.

    It wouldn't have been necessary to storm Moscow just surround it, initially with panzer forces. That alone would've put an end to the great hub.

    If it is such a mighty hub then why do you think it would collapse faster than Leningrad? Stalingrad was a hub too... and so was Leningrad. And for that matter Kiev. When under siege or surrounded a hub just has lots of channels for material to arrive to relieve that siege/pressure.
    starman
    starman

    Posts : 588
    Points : 586
    Join date : 2016-08-10

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The core of Soviet military power was in her people and industry... a lot of the latter moved east past the Urals so occupying Moscow would have no effect upon it.

    Well, taking much of the European USSR would've seriously reduced population or manpower to man weapons besides messed up the rail network needed to move equipment and resources.


    It is not about money as such it is about access to needed resources...

    That's what I meant by "economic objectives."

    it was nothing to do with the value of oil or timber or steel it was access to oilfields out of bomber range of the western allies for example.

    Ploesti wasn't out of range but about as good as the reich could expect. If US bombers could reach Ploesti from North Africa, they or British bombers probably could've attacked Baku--had it been taken--and maybe Astrakhan if based in Iraq. Or maybe they'd be granted access to Soviet airfields, assuming the Soviets didn't have sufficient capability to plaster Caucasus oilfields themselves.


    The problem for the Japanese was the trade embargo imposed by the British and the US that blocked the import or oil and rubber and other resources. If the Japanese had more brains and less pride they could have made an offer to the Soviets... perhaps even to return territory taken by force in 1905 in return for trade in coal and steel and oil and other materials. The war in the Pacific would never have needed to happen.

    But the Soviets probably wouldn't have wanted to help them, so soon after Khalkin Gol, and when they still seemed potentially dangerous at the start of '41.

    why are people so sure they were happy to siege Leningrad but should have taken Moscow?

    But in the case of Leningrad ideology played a role. Inasmuch as it was the site of the bolshevik revolution, the nazis didn't want to take it so much as destroy it.


    Capturing the Caucasus would create a local oil source that could be used to greatly shorten supply lines and also supply Germany with oil too.... that would be vastly more valuable than trying to take Moscow.

    In theory, from a purely economic point of view, assuming the Germans could've repaired or totally rebuilt from scratch, facilities blown up by the retreating Soviets, and keep them functioning in wartime.


    If it is such a mighty hub then why do you think it would collapse faster than Leningrad?

    Because in an alternate scenario it would've gotten much higher priority for capture or at least encirclement than it actually did, whereas taking Leningrad wasn't even an objective.


    Stalingrad was a hub too... and so was Leningrad. And for that matter Kiev. When under siege or surrounded a hub just has lots of channels for material to arrive to relieve that siege/pressure.

    If the German panzers encircled Moscow and the infantry finally caught up to strengthen the ring i.e. establish defensive positions, based on experience they probably could've held back a relief attempt by Zhukov. The latter did well historically in December 1941 because the Germans were still attacking; they hadn't shifted to a prepared defense.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:16 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Better reinforcement of Moscow might have led to the capture of Moscow


    You said: I interpret that as increased German focus on Moscow. Seems oddly worded.

    What I was meaning was better reinforcement by Germany of the forces going for Moscow instead of distractions to the south might have led to Moscow being captured or at least sieged but the lack of forces in the south would likely have meant no oil and a threat from the south to move north and cut off the siege...

    Well, taking much of the European USSR would've seriously reduced population or manpower to man weapons besides messed up the rail network needed to move equipment and resources.

    They already took much of european soviet land and ripped up rail lines in retreat too.

    the point is that the capture of a hub does not destroy the rails leading to the hub which can be used to supply forces trying to retake that hub. The Capture or encirclement of Moscow would not destroy the rails leading from the new production centres east of the Urals to the approaches of Moscow.

    That's what I meant by "economic objectives."

    They are only economic resources if they contribute to your economy... things like steel and oil and indeed tanks and components are considered logistical resources rather than economic ones.

    Ploesti wasn't out of range but about as good as the reich could expect. If US bombers could reach Ploesti from North Africa, they or British bombers probably could've attacked Baku--had it been taken--and maybe Astrakhan if based in Iraq. Or maybe they'd be granted access to Soviet airfields, assuming the Soviets didn't have sufficient capability to plaster Caucasus oilfields themselves.

    Ploesti was out of range if US bombers could not operate through Soviet airfields...

    But the Soviets probably wouldn't have wanted to help them, so soon after Khalkin Gol, and when they still seemed potentially dangerous at the start of '41.

    But that is the point... if the Japanese had more brains and less pride they could have simply approached the Soviets and said we want to buy your timber and oil and steel and a few of your tank designs and fighter aircraft designs instead of invading Khalkin Gol.

    The Soviets weren't hugely trusting of the Japanese, so the Japanese could increase the chances of cooperation by offering to return some territory they took in 1905 to sweeten the deal. It was in 1945 that the Japanese approached the Soviets to negotiate a peace deal with the US... by then their pride was gone and their brains told them this was their best option of the time.

    What they didn't know was that Stalin had already promised the US that the Soviets would enter the war in the Pacific at Yalta... the Americans were afraid that when the war in Europe ended they might get left with a war in the Pacific that might go on for decades, so they demanded the Soviets join the war effort there.

    Of course for the Soviets they got a lot of lost territory back finally... the Kurile islands among them...

    But in the case of Leningrad ideology played a role. Inasmuch as it was the site of the bolshevik revolution, the nazis didn't want to take it so much as destroy it.

    Don't read too much into the symbolism of post WWII claims by the Germans.

    The reality is that they split their forces into three groups, of which none of the three were actually powerful enough for the intended jobs... so the northern branch got the reduced role of secure and hold, while the south group got the priority of take oilfield and the centre group move towards moscow.

    They needed all three groups but didn't man them up with enough forces to do their jobs and were constantly switching from centre to south and often took forces from other forces when things got tough.

    In theory, from a purely economic point of view, assuming the Germans could've repaired or totally rebuilt from scratch, facilities blown up by the retreating Soviets, and keep them functioning in wartime.

    They didn't need to totally rebuild... if ISIS can extract oil from oilfields in northern iraq and syria then the germans could extract oil from oilfields in Russia.

    The oil sold would not be economic... it is not about selling it and making money... it is about getting it to tank forces and airfields to operate tanks and aircraft.

    Because in an alternate scenario it would've gotten much higher priority for capture or at least encirclement than it actually did, whereas taking Leningrad wasn't even an objective.

    It was not the objective because there was never enough resources/men/aircraft/vehicles for them to complete a three pronged attack into such a vast country.

    To change the balance you would need to draw forces from one or both of the other lines of attack. In effect they dithered shifting forces from the centre group to the south group... as you say the smaller force holding leningrad was not some huge resource they could have taken troops from to have taken moscow with... it was already a skeleton force that had its guts taken to feed the other two lines of attack.

    To have tried to encircle Moscow would have required pretty much the vast majority of the southern force to be diverted to the centre force... which would have pretty much given up all occupation of the south and probably risked a flank attack like a super stalingrad from the south to cut off the centre forces attacking moscow.

    [qutoe]
    If the German panzers encircled Moscow and the infantry finally caught up to strengthen the ring i.e. establish defensive positions, based on experience they probably could've held back a relief attempt by Zhukov. The latter did well historically in December 1941 because the Germans were still attacking; they hadn't shifted to a prepared defense.[/quote]

    They had been ordered to dig in and defend and were still pushed back.

    The temperatures involved at the time made digging in the only sensible option... at minus 40 degrees in equipment designed for a summer campaign you do not want to be caught out in the open...
    starman
    starman

    Posts : 588
    Points : 586
    Join date : 2016-08-10

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What I was meaning was better reinforcement by Germany of the forces going for Moscow instead of distractions to the south might have led to Moscow being captured or at least sieged but the lack of forces in the south would likely have meant no oil and a threat from the south to move north and cut off the siege...

    The Germans could've taken the oilfields later, after Moscow were taken.


    They already took much of european soviet land...

    Taking even more like the area around Moscow would've helped.

    the point is that the capture of a hub does not destroy the rails leading to the hub which can be used to supply forces trying to retake that hub. The Capture or encirclement of Moscow would not destroy the rails leading from the new production centres east of the Urals to the approaches of Moscow.

    Potential problems would've included demoralization following German gains that far east, and even worse losses than occurred historically, for them to get that far.


    Ploesti was out of range if US bombers could not operate through Soviet airfields...

    I was under the impression in August '43 they struck at it from a North African base and later, in '44, from an Italian one.


    But that is the point... if the Japanese had more brains and less pride they could have simply approached the Soviets and said we want to buy your timber and oil and steel and a few of your tank designs and fighter aircraft designs instead of invading Khalkin Gol.

    But the Japanese didn't have an acute need for an alternative source of oil etc until the US embargo of 1940, well after Khalkin Gol.


    They didn't need to totally rebuild... if ISIS can extract oil from oilfields in northern iraq and syria then the germans could extract oil from oilfields in Russia.

    I don't think the oilfields were blown up before they took them.


    To have tried to encircle Moscow would have required pretty much the vast majority of the southern force to be diverted to the centre force... which would have pretty much given up all occupation of the south and probably risked a flank attack like a super stalingrad from the south to cut off the centre forces attacking moscow.

    I don't think the Soviets had much ability to conduct mobile warfare on that scale, at least not in '41. Look at their caution at Stalingrad. They could've been much more ambitious.


    They had been ordered to dig in and defend and were still pushed back.

    Strange, I thought Halder told Guderian(?) around then "to stick to the attack is the best defense."

    The temperatures involved at the time made digging in the only sensible option... at minus 40 degrees in equipment designed for a summer campaign you do not want to be caught out in the open...

    But Guderian told Adolf the ground was frozen solid and "our wretched entrenching tools won't go through it."
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:11 am

    The Germans could've taken the oilfields later, after Moscow were taken.

    They needed the oil.

    Why do you think they invaded north africa? For fun? They were going for oil in the ME.

    Taking even more like the area around Moscow would've helped.

    How?

    There is no oil there and no production facilities to take or destroy. The only value is any Soviet forces they can tie up, encircle, and destroy... they were better off going for the oil fields to the south... which is what they did.


    Potential problems would've included demoralization following German gains that far east, and even worse losses than occurred historically, for them to get that far.

    Half the Soviets fighting probably had never been to Moscow and likely could care less if it was captured. The Soviets were fighting because Germany was clearly a worse oppressor than Stalin was... taking moscow or not taking moscow would not change that.

    If the german army couldn't take Stalingrad what makes you think they could take Moscow?

    I was under the impression in August '43 they struck at it from a North African base and later, in '44, from an Italian one.

    But they landed and refuelled in Russia and then flew back to their base of origin.

    Without the Russian pit stop it would have been a one way trip.

    But the Japanese didn't have an acute need for an alternative source of oil etc until the US embargo of 1940, well after Khalkin Gol.

    The need was there, it was just made critical by the blockade by the British and Americans.

    I don't think the oilfields were blown up before they took them.

    You can't destroy an oil field with explosives... just temporarily deny access.

    The German forces could have brought their own oil drilling equipment... if they can move Tigers that far they can sail across the Black sea with drilling equipment.

    I don't think the Soviets had much ability to conduct mobile warfare on that scale, at least not in '41. Look at their caution at Stalingrad. They could've been much more ambitious.

    Stalingrad was a trap. A carefully planned and executed trap. They drip fed forces into Stalingrad at a rate so that the Germans thought they were gradually taking control and when they thought that victory was in sight the trap was sprung.

    All those forces built up for the pincer movement could have been feed into the city to keep the Germans from making ground but at the end of the day it was easier to let them progress to focus their attention on the fight in front of their noses so they ignored the bigger force being built up that would eventually surround them and defeat them more efficiently than a frontal assault would.

    The difference is that the blocking force in Moscow was enough to stop the German attack... there was no need to let then in and let them take most of moscow to then build up a force to surround and then siege them...

    There was enough force to stop them entering properly and push them back without going through the hardship of a siege in a city.


    Strange, I thought Halder told Guderian(?) around then "to stick to the attack is the best defense."

    Hahahaha... at minus 30 degrees C in summer grade uniforms I would like to see the performance of that attack...

    But Guderian told Adolf the ground was frozen solid and "our wretched entrenching tools won't go through it."

    Which is why you don't advance in the open... you find cover... like buildings... and you try to stay there if you can... when those siberians are coming however it is not so easy... especially when your tanks with their thin tracks wont run...

    archangelski
    archangelski

    Posts : 613
    Points : 632
    Join date : 2015-04-25

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:07 am

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 TyoTwZ9Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 4EzhRJJGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 WvQd9HHGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 ClhuK8qGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Mv524zJGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 ThvolkCGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 AVVPyrV
    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2406
    Points : 2497
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  higurashihougi Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:28 am

    @GunshipDemocracy:

    https://www.rt.com/news/364772-poland-soviet-memorials-volunteers/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

    Outraged by the rise of vandalism against memorials to Soviet soldiers in Poland, a group of volunteers has pledged to restore any damaged monuments. Russia’s Foreign Ministry spokeswoman thanked the Polish patriots for preserving the common history of the two states.

    Polish activist Erzy Tyc, who heads a movement restoring and preserving memorials to Soviet soldiers in the Eastern European country, has visited Russia and met with Foreign Ministry representative Maria Zakharova.
    starman
    starman

    Posts : 588
    Points : 586
    Join date : 2016-08-10

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  starman Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:They needed the oil.

    Why do you think they invaded north africa? For fun? They were going for oil in the ME.

    No, basically the DAK went to Africa just to prevent the Italians from collapsing completely. There was little if any oil production, yet, in Libya in 1940-43. Rommel may have wanted to go all the way to Basra but the high command seemed content just to keep British forces tied down in Africa.




    How?
    There is no oil there and no production facilities to take or destroy. The only value is any Soviet forces they can tie up, encircle, and destroy... they were better off going for the oil fields to the south... which is what they did.

    Well by taking the area they could've deprived European Russia of even more territory from which to get recruits.


    Half the Soviets fighting probably had never been to Moscow and likely could care less if it was captured. The Soviets were fighting because Germany was clearly a worse oppressor than Stalin was... taking moscow or not taking moscow would not change that.

    OK half--that still left half who would've cared; besides it would've made many more feel the Wehrmacht was unstoppable. If they can't even defend the capital, what's the use?  Many Soviets btw collaborated with the Germans despite their racial views.

    If the german army couldn't take Stalingrad what makes you think they could take Moscow?

    Stalingrad was on the west bank of the Volga. Their tanks couldn't swim across the river and encircle it from behind. Guderian was willing to go after Moscow as was Halder and presumably other "pros."

    But they landed and refuelled in Russia and then flew back to their base of origin.

    What base in Russia?
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4213
    Points : 4230
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:53 pm

    Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:03 am

    Well by taking the area they could've deprived European Russia of even more territory from which to get recruits.

    Stalin was getting plenty of recruits from occupied areas...

    OK half--that still left half who would've cared; besides it would've made many more feel the Wehrmacht was unstoppable. If they can't even defend the capital, what's the use? Many Soviets btw collaborated with the Germans despite their racial views.

    Hahahahahahaha... yeah... if there is anything you can say about the Soviets is that they give up real easy. The Germans were stopped at the gates of Moscow in 1941... they knew they could be stopped. Moscow was just another city... the germans didn't have the forces to take it let alone hold it.

    If they had tried they would have been overstretched and would have gotten thrashed in the aftermath.


    Stalingrad was on the west bank of the Volga. Their tanks couldn't swim across the river and encircle it from behind. Guderian was willing to go after Moscow as was Halder and presumably other "pros."

    They could not even punch through the forces surrounding Stalingrad when the trap was sprung... how the hell could they deal with the forces that would be put up to defend Moscow?

    What base in Russia?

    Three bases in the Ukraine were used in 1944 to attack targets deep in eastern europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frantic
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4213
    Points : 4230
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  KoTeMoRe Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:12 pm

    For realz guys, it is a deep mystique in Eastern Europe. I was taught that the definite loss of the German armed forces in the USSR was not because they didn't go for Moscow, but that went for the USSR too late in the year. End of June left 4 months tops to have rapid maneuver warfare. Once the Germans started getting bogged down, the game was lost and for two years (42/43) the Germans were only playing grab as much as you can during fair weather in order to lose the least possible during the counter offensives and harsh times. This however went hand in hand with other issues that the Germans hadn't foreseen. Huge swathes of the country they had just occupied weren't totally under their control. Huge masses of partizans, isolated battle groups, displaced people started creating real issues, tying down substantial policing troops and forcing the Germans to commit further acts of genocide that they hadn't planned on top of the planned bullet genocide and mass deportations.

    Basically Germany had no frigging chance to fight the Soviet Union once this behemoth mobilized. The rest is history.
    Khepesh
    Khepesh

    Posts : 1666
    Points : 1735
    Join date : 2015-04-22
    Location : Ахетатон и Уасет

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Khepesh Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:34 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    100% and too often overlooked. Battle of Mtsensk in early October 1941. 4th Tank Brigade commanded by Mikhail Katukov thumped Guderian's 2 Panzerarmee in the face and made them shit their pants, and caused Guderian to ask Hitler to copy T-34. This battle is not liked in West because it showed that small number of well led and well equiped Red Army forces could stop the Nazis, when the west prefers it to be hordes of "Mongols" with only front rank armed with rifles and NKVD shooting everybody in the back if they don't run into battle fast enough.
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:36 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    100% and too often overlooked. Battle of Mtsensk in early October 1941. 4th Tank Brigade commanded by Mikhail Katukov thumped Guderian's 2 Panzerarmee in the face and made them shit their pants, and caused Guderian to ask Hitler to copy T-34. This battle is not liked in West because it showed that small number of well led and well equiped Red Army forces could stop the Nazis, when the west prefers it to be hordes of "Mongols" with only front rank armed with rifles and NKVD shooting everybody in the back if they don't run into battle fast enough.


    But that was not really a "pitched" battle, but rather a very huge and successful ambush.

    Besides the Soviet 4th Tank Brigade there were also some airborne troops also participating in that battle on the Soviet side, fighting as elite infantry.

    There was also a certain element of surprise, as that was the first ever battle where the Soviets inflicted a major defeat on the German armored forces.

    Some German commanders were put to court martial afterwards.
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:39 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:For realz guys, it is a deep mystique in Eastern Europe. I was taught that the definite loss of the German armed forces in the USSR was not because they didn't go for Moscow, but that went for the USSR too late in the year. End of June left 4 months tops to have rapid maneuver warfare. Once the Germans started getting bogged down, the game was lost and for two years (42/43) the Germans were only playing grab as much as you can during fair weather in order to lose the least possible during the counter offensives and harsh times. This however went hand in hand with other issues that the Germans hadn't foreseen. Huge swathes of the country they had just occupied weren't totally  under their control. Huge masses of partizans, isolated battle groups, displaced people started creating real issues, tying down substantial policing troops and forcing the Germans to commit further acts of genocide that they hadn't planned on top of the planned bullet genocide and mass deportations.

    Basically Germany had no frigging chance to fight the Soviet Union once this behemoth mobilized. The rest is history.


    You can check some related links on this matter:


    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-ZiemiLubelskiej.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-SynowieMazowsza.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-ZiemiKieleckiej.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-GL.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-GL42.html

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-Rablow.html

    Khepesh
    Khepesh

    Posts : 1666
    Points : 1735
    Join date : 2015-04-22
    Location : Ахетатон и Уасет

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Khepesh Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:47 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:

    Besides the Soviet 4th Tank Brigade there were also some airborne troops also participating in that battle on the Soviet side, fighting as elite infantry.

    I know, but I didn't want to write a wall of text and name every unit, like 201st VDV Brigade, 9th Mortar Regiment, 11th Tank Brigade etc etc. 4th Tank Brigade was the single most powerful unit and were foremost unit of 1st Guards Rifle Corps, and without their presence and abilities of Katukov there may not have been the same success. That after the battle the brigade was renamed 1st Guards Tank Brigade, the first tank unit of any size to be named "Guards", shows importance of 4th Tank Brigade in the battle. Of course it needed all the other units, and I am aware that of the seven men awarded "Hero of Soviet Union" after the battle, six were from aviation regiments, the seventh was a company commander of 4th Tank Brigade.

    While certainly it was not a large battle, the consequences of stalling 2 Panzerarmee's march on Tula served a similar function to Thermopylae, and the after effects of the battle were far greater than it's size as regards number of forces involved.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 29934
    Points : 30460
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:44 am

    The irony is that because the Germans treated the soviets like animals the soviets had little real choice but to either fight or be exterminated.

    Of course you can't mention genocide regarding WWII unless you are referring to the Jews, because they were the only victims of WWII genocide...

    Added to the fact that the only perspective we heard from the eastern front after the war that could be trusted was from the new allies west germans who largely blamed hitler for the defeat.

    The Soviets were the enemy... you could not give them any credit for knowing how to fight... it was obviously the combination of Hitler and winter and lend lease that kept the Soviets alive until D Day won the war.
    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4213
    Points : 4230
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  KoTeMoRe Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:13 am

    Khepesh wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Blyaaaaaa revisionism again in this thread?

    Moscow was out of reach once Orel happened. German failure at Orel doomed the Moscow movement. The tying up and subsequent transfer of troops from Eastern Theater to Western Theater made sure that Germans would never threaten Moscow again.
    NEVER.
    100% and too often overlooked. Battle of Mtsensk in early October 1941. 4th Tank Brigade commanded by Mikhail Katukov thumped Guderian's 2 Panzerarmee in the face and made them shit their pants, and caused Guderian to ask Hitler to copy T-34. This battle is not liked in West because it showed that small number of well led and well equiped Red Army forces could stop the Nazis, when the west prefers it to be hordes of "Mongols" with only front rank armed with rifles and NKVD shooting everybody in the back if they don't run into battle fast enough.

    Subhumans did what? Can they do that? Etc etc etc.

    But frankly Orel was as huge as they come. Tactically it looked like nothing, strategically, only "mishap". But it would have long resounding consequences. Because it gained a month worth of a shaping battle and forced Guderian to rethink the attack on Tula, that the Germans never captured...

    It's the most "butterfly effect" stalling engagement that one could ever see.

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 10332
    Points : 10479
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  kvs Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:37 am

    Once again, politically approved historiography in the west is a total joke. It is clear that the agenda is to paint Russians
    (then Soviets) as untermenschen.

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 201

    This logo is very peculiar for the "victors over Nazism". It has a distinct Swastika aspect to it which is very striking when
    the image is reduced in size:

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Russia-wants-war

    NATO's rabid support for Banderites in Ukraine just confirms that the Nazi Germany was not some total aberration. Hitler was
    supposed to overrun the USSR. He was given plenty of industrial and energy support during the 1930s and 1940s. The
    western "allies" opened up a second front only when it was clear that the USSR could roll all the way to the Atlantic.
    If Hitler had succeeded the Reich would be around today. The Nazis are only demonized in the west because they lost.
    But the scummy nature of this sort of thinking manifests itself as routine appeals to General Winter and "human wave"
    attacks by Soviets (which never happened) to account why the western ubermenschen failed basically by 1942.

    Gorbachov was indeed a comprador since it was clear that NATO would smoothly transition to an anti-Russian alliance.
    If he was not a sellout he would have demanded a treaty to prevent NATO expansion eastward. Accepting some
    promise was clearly a corrupt decision and not some mistake.
    archangelski
    archangelski

    Posts : 613
    Points : 632
    Join date : 2015-04-25

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:39 am

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 FBxOHEbGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 NdHR2fdGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Nk7WQz5
    archangelski
    archangelski

    Posts : 613
    Points : 632
    Join date : 2015-04-25

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  archangelski Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:40 am

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 XO0oHC7Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 HmcWC3ZGreat Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 QFLqzal

    Sponsored content

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 6 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:05 am