Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Poll

    Are they leaving the US' influence?

    [ 9 ]
    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_left32%Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_right [32%] 
    [ 4 ]
    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_left14%Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_right [14%] 
    [ 12 ]
    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_left43%Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_right [43%] 
    [ 3 ]
    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_left11%Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Bar_right [11%] 

    Total Votes: 28
    Backman
    Backman

    Posts : 274
    Points : 278
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Backman on Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:02 am

    Good. The bigger the caatsa club gets, the sooner everyone else will start signing up for the alternatives. Turkey can sign up for Russia's payment system. Russia has already sent the invite.

    The Russian government is also in talks to expand SPFS to developing countries such as Turkey and Iran.[6] Owing to its limitations, the SPFS system is seen as a last resort, rather than as a replacement for the SWIFT network.[1] Since 2019 many agreements were reached to link SPFS to other countries payment systems in China, India, Iran, as well as the countries inside the EAEU who are planning to use SPFS directly. SPFS accounts now around 15% of all internal trafficking inside Russia.


    China really should have built a parallel system 25 years ago. What where they thinking No

    George1
    George1

    Posts : 15530
    Points : 16025
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:12 pm

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Screen16

    GarryB, lyle6 and Backman like this post

    KoTeMoRe
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 4213
    Points : 4230
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:12 pm

    George1 wrote:Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Screen16


    Huehuehue, Let's see how far they go with their 8 billion USD budget....
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1492
    Points : 1670
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:12 pm

    Most of the Turkish military products are heavily dependent on US/EU technologies .

    Germany also stopped it's support to the Turkish tank ,the project has stopped and now Turkey is seeking for the Ukrainian help .

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6960
    Points : 6950
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:15 pm

    Once they are left with no militray US will invade them. Corona crisis will destroy their economy and they will need a new war.

    Erdogan better sell Bosphorus to Russia in exchange of protection.
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1492
    Points : 1670
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:20 pm

    Garmin is a US company that provided some Turkish drones with mechanical and communication parts and munitions.

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Screen40

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Screen39
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6773
    Points : 6924
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:22 pm

    It's amazing, Turkey can invade/wage war with 4 or 5 countries simultaneously and nothing happens. Buy some Russian gear and all hell breaks loose! The current world order is truly rotten to the core!

    GarryB likes this post

    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1492
    Points : 1670
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:58 pm

    More details

    The Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Treasury, has selected the following sanctions from CAATSA Section 235, as implemented by Executive Order (E.O.) 13849, to impose on SSB:

    a prohibition on granting specific U.S. export licenses and authorizations for any goods or technology transferred to SSB (Section 235(a)(2));

    a prohibition on loans or credits by U.S. financial institutions to SSB totaling more than $10 million in any 12-month period (Section 235(a)(3));

    a ban on U.S. Export-Import Bank assistance for exports to SSB (Section 235(a)(1));

    a requirement for the United States to oppose loans benefitting SSB by international financial institutions (Section 235(a)(4)); and
    imposition of full blocking sanctions and visa restrictions (Section 235(a)(7), (,8,), (9), (11), and (12)) on Dr. Ismail Demir, president of SSB; Faruk Yigit, SSB’s vice president; Serhat Gencoglu, Head of SSB’s Department of Air Defense and Space; and Mustafa Alper Deniz, Program Manager for SSB’s Regional Air Defense Systems Directorate.

    https://www.state.gov/caatsa-section-231-imposition-of-sanctions-on-turkish-presidency-of-defense-industries/
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27478
    Points : 28010
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:38 am

    China really should have built a parallel system 25 years ago. What where they thinking

    It is a real dicotomy though... it is like people complaining that Russia kept using Antonov and Motor Sich products and that left them vulnerable to when the Ukraine cut them off in 2014... but really if Russia had spent money and replaced them much early they would have effectively pushed Ukraine away, but the money they spent replacing what the Ukraine made was spent on other things that were a higher priority and by openly cutting off the Ukraine earlier meant western countries could have cut Russia off earlier so less technology like new thermal imager technology transfer etc etc would have caused problems in other areas.

    Very simply if China had built a SWIFT like system 25 years ago the west would have greatly reduced or stopped investment in China 25 years ago because it would be clear they were preparing to jump ship.

    Russia didn't ditch the dollar till the US forced them to.

    Russia and China are not trying to destroy the US, but they do react when the US uses its dollar and its control of the SWIFT system as a weapon... this is not an attack, this is Russia and China defending themselves... and Turkey is doing the same... the US would not sell Patriot to Turkey so Turkey bought S-400 and now the US is complaining that Turkey didn't buy Patriot instead of S-400.

    Most of the Turkish military products are heavily dependent on US/EU technologies .
    Germany also stopped it's support to the Turkish tank ,the project has stopped and now Turkey is seeking for the Ukrainian help .

    The arrogant Americans think if they cut them off they will collapse and come crawling back and accept much harsher terms...

    Turkey could easily replace those awful Black Hawk helicopters with Mi-38s... KRET makes aircraft navigation systems and avionics...

    Once they are left with no militray US will invade them. Corona crisis will destroy their economy and they will need a new war.

    Erdogan better sell Bosphorus to Russia in exchange of protection.

    Russia can sell Sputnik V vaccine to Turkey and they can make it locally... Russia likely does not want the Bosphorus... and I doubt Erdogan would sell it even if they did.

    It's amazing, Turkey can invade/wage war with 4 or 5 countries simultaneously and nothing happens. Buy some Russian gear and all hell breaks loose! The current world order is truly rotten to the core!

    You can be a bastard, but you have to be our bastard if you want to avoid criticism...

    More details

    Sounds like a Russian trade delegation needs to go to Turkey and talk Turkey... so to speak...
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27478
    Points : 28010
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:39 am

    Ironic that the US wants to cook this turkey for Xmas....

    ahmedfire likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10013
    Points : 10091
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:13 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:Most of the Turkish military products are heavily dependent on US/EU technologies .

    Germany also stopped it's support to the Turkish tank ,the project has stopped and now Turkey is seeking for the Ukrainian help .

    They should ask North Korea for help, they will get better results

    ahmedfire likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27478
    Points : 28010
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:30 am

    It is ironic that by seeking help from the Ukraine they still pander to the US by supporting one of its experiments... frankensteins monster needs money and business too.

    If Turkey really wanted to get back at the US they should look at Russian and Chinese and also North Korean but also Iranian companies too.

    There is a whole world of technology out there and the US and EU is not the centre of the universe when it comes to who makes the best...

    At least with cooperation with North Korea they are less likely to have their invested money stolen...
    lyle6
    lyle6

    Posts : 212
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2020-09-14

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  lyle6 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:36 am

    Couldn't have happened to a nicer country. Get fucked T*rks.

    ahmedfire wrote:Most of the Turkish military products are heavily dependent on US/EU technologies .

    Germany also stopped it's support to the Turkish tank  ,the project has stopped and now Turkey is seeking for the Ukrainian help .


    There is no T*rkish tank - the Altay is a Korean tank modified to use a manual loader because T*rks apparently can't figure out an AL. Not that the base design is any good, mind you as the very first thing the Poles have done when they received the Korean proposal is to apply heavy armor upgrades to the turret and hull. The tank also comes with no powerpack options for export because the Koreans couldn't hack one even despite near 20 years in development and the Germans are not really interested in supporting a competitor with their components even before sanctions. Their only choice is the Ukrainian engine and transmission but these have never been installed in any series vehicle, ever. Given how unreliable in service T-84s are I don't even think the Ukrainians have the capability to refine their newer designs anymore. The T*rks are going to be stuck indefinitely with a 65 ton paperweight and there is not much they can do about it.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4127
    Points : 4211
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:12 pm

    lyle6 wrote:Couldn't have happened to a nicer country. Get fucked T*rks.

    ahmedfire wrote:Most of the Turkish military products are heavily dependent on US/EU technologies .

    Germany also stopped it's support to the Turkish tank  ,the project has stopped and now Turkey is seeking for the Ukrainian help .


    There is no T*rkish tank - the Altay is a Korean tank modified to use a manual loader because T*rks apparently can't figure out an AL. Not that the base design is any good, mind you as the very first thing the Poles have done when they received the Korean proposal is to apply heavy armor upgrades to the turret and hull. The tank also comes with no powerpack options for export because the Koreans couldn't hack one even despite near 20 years in development and the Germans are not really interested in supporting a competitor with their components even before sanctions. Their only choice is the Ukrainian engine and transmission but these have never been installed in any series vehicle, ever. Given how unreliable in service T-84s are I don't even think the Ukrainians have the capability to refine their newer designs anymore. The T*rks are going to be stuck indefinitely with a 65 ton paperweight and there is not much they can do about it.

    No point in playing moral arbiter in a world with no morals to speak off, where the only standard followed is rule of the mighty and powerful

    A prime opportunity for Russia to step in and offer the Turks co-operation in weaving off NATO tech dependence.

    I suspect Erdogan has rather overplayed his hand here. His position was a lot stronger when he could still balance between NATO and Russia and intervene in every neighbour under the sun

    If NATO takes a hard-line with Turkey now, they'll be reduced to a B-grade actor dependent on Russian joint-projects and Chinese finance; while Egypt, Syria and other neighbouring countries get an equal amount of co-operation from Moscow to keep the Turks in line.
    lyle6
    lyle6

    Posts : 212
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2020-09-14

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  lyle6 on Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:11 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    No point in playing moral arbiter in a world with no morals to speak off, where the only standard followed is rule of the mighty and powerful

    A prime opportunity for Russia to step in and offer the Turks co-operation in weaving off NATO tech dependence.

    I suspect Erdogan has rather overplayed his hand here. His position was a lot stronger when he could still balance between NATO and Russia and intervene in every neighbour under the sun

    If NATO takes a hard-line with Turkey now, they'll be reduced to a B-grade actor dependent on Russian joint-projects and Chinese finance; while Egypt, Syria and other neighbouring countries get an equal amount of co-operation from Moscow to keep the Turks in line.

    Its not about policing morals, its simply refusing to enable Turkey with its grand ambitions, ambitions that run counter to Russia and everyone else in the general neighborhood's interest.

    Just because the West has grown tired of Turkey doesn't mean Russia has to take Turkey in. Leave them to hang like Ukraine and watch as they implode within.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27478
    Points : 28010
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:36 am

    The thing is that we keep hearing about these grand amibitions from Erdogan to restore their empire... but we also keep hearing of the ambitions of Putin to restore the Soviet empire... which if also true shows how incompetent he is because he has had multiple opportunities to absorb former soviet states that he has openly turned down.

    There are other explanations for his actions... in fact in both cases that don't require the sort of imperial thinking that goes on continuously in the west... but that is never mentioned.

    It makes me think the west is again projecting its own imperial agenda on its perceived opponents in the form of Erdogan and Putin...
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4127
    Points : 4211
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:08 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    No point in playing moral arbiter in a world with no morals to speak off, where the only standard followed is rule of the mighty and powerful

    A prime opportunity for Russia to step in and offer the Turks co-operation in weaving off NATO tech dependence.

    I suspect Erdogan has rather overplayed his hand here. His position was a lot stronger when he could still balance between NATO and Russia and intervene in every neighbour under the sun

    If NATO takes a hard-line with Turkey now, they'll be reduced to a B-grade actor dependent on Russian joint-projects and Chinese finance; while Egypt, Syria and other neighbouring countries get an equal amount of co-operation from Moscow to keep the Turks in line.

    Its not about policing morals, its simply refusing to enable Turkey with its grand ambitions, ambitions that run counter to Russia and everyone else in the general neighborhood's interest.

    Just because the West has grown tired of Turkey doesn't mean Russia has to take Turkey in. Leave them to hang like Ukraine and watch as they implode within.

    By no means am I advocating Russia sticking its neck out for Turkey. But equally there is no need to stick it out for Greece or Cyprus either; countries that have imposed sanctions on Russia.

    But Turkey's grand ambitions seem to hit the EU a lot more than Russia; so yes as annoying as Erdo can be he is clearly an asset for Russia.
    In places where Russia's and Turkey's interests can clash; like Syria or Armenia-Azerbaijan, we have no problems projecting strength and keeping the upper hand in negotiations with Ankara.

    I don't advocate supporting Turkish adventurism, simply throwing them a lifeline if and when they screw-up with it, tugging them towards Moscow and Beijing, and by doing so advancing Russia's own interests. It's common sense.
    And Turkey moving towards Russia pisses Washington off more than anything else. It wasn't the drilling rights spat with Greece, or supporting ISIS in Syria, or Armenia-Azerbaijan that irked the West. It was buying S-400 missiles. That's what they took as disobedience and disloyalty towards their empire in their confrontation with Russia. That's what they're trying to get pay-back for. And that's why it's the right thing for Russia to continue with.
    lyle6
    lyle6

    Posts : 212
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2020-09-14

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  lyle6 on Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:The thing is that we keep hearing about these grand amibitions from Erdogan to restore their empire... but we also keep hearing of the ambitions of Putin to restore the Soviet empire... which if also true shows how incompetent he is because he has had multiple opportunities to absorb former soviet states that he has openly turned down.

    There are other explanations for his actions... in fact in both cases that don't require the sort of imperial thinking that goes on continuously in the west... but that is never mentioned.

    It makes me think the west is again projecting its own imperial agenda on its perceived opponents in the form of Erdogan and Putin...

    Like the broken clock, they can't be wrong at all times can they?

    To be fair though, while Putin might have the ambition to set about rejoining Russia's territories he also has the foresight to realize that doing so would neither be very productive for his country considering the conditions on which these territories would agree to rejoin under, as well as the reaction it would provoke from the West.

    It took nazis deposing the lawful government in Kiev and Crimea becoming under threat from nazi hordes before Russia intervened covertly in Ukraine. That's a very high threshold for Russia to bear and illustrates just how dire the situation even has to be for the option to intervene was even considered.

    In contrast Turkey has on its initiative, jumped at any excuse it could get to intervene in its neighbours affairs. It didn't need to support the attempted Syrian regime change - it had a working agreement with Damascus that kept the PKK in check. Both sides also had a vested interest in keeping their backyard stable given the turmoils in neighbouring Iraq. But what did Turkey do?

    flamming_python wrote:
    By no means am I advocating Russia sticking its neck out for Turkey. But equally there is no need to stick it out for Greece or Cyprus either; countries that have imposed sanctions on Russia.

    But Turkey's grand ambitions seem to hit the EU a lot more than Russia; so yes as annoying as Erdo can be he is clearly an asset for Russia.
    In places where Russia's and Turkey's interests can clash; like Syria or Armenia-Azerbaijan, we have no problems projecting strength and keeping the upper hand in negotiations with Ankara.

    I don't advocate supporting Turkish adventurism, simply throwing them a lifeline if and when they screw-up with it, tugging them towards Moscow and Beijing, and by doing so advancing Russia's own interests. It's common sense.
    And Turkey moving towards Russia pisses Washington off more than anything else. It wasn't the drilling rights spat with Greece, or supporting ISIS in Syria, or Armenia-Azerbaijan that irked the West. It was buying S-400 missiles. That's what they took as disobedience and disloyalty towards their empire in their confrontation with Russia. That's what they're trying to get pay-back for. And that's why it's the right thing for Russia to continue with.

    I don't see the point. The Turks have never shown any hint of gratitude towards any action the Russians have done that was to their benefit. Why would you expect they'd change their attitude in the future?

    In my opinion there's not much sense in trying to tug Turkey from NATO either. They know the only reason they even have the latitude to operate on their own is due entirely to NATO covering for them. Otherwise they'd long be steamrolled by Russia and the concert of neighbors that have an ax to grind against them. Its a nice thought to have, but the Turks would never make it that easy for you, as much as they could stomach being stripped of what little fiefdom they are trying to establish.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4127
    Points : 4211
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:49 am

    lyle6 wrote:I don't see the point. The Turks have never shown any hint of gratitude towards any action the Russians have done that was to their benefit. Why would you expect they'd change their attitude in the future?

    In my opinion there's not much sense in trying to tug Turkey from NATO either. They know the only reason they even have the latitude to operate on their own is due entirely to NATO covering for them. Otherwise they'd long be steamrolled by Russia and the concert of neighbors that have an ax to grind against them. Its a nice thought to have, but the Turks would never make it that easy for you,  as much as they could stomach being stripped of what little fiefdom they are trying to establish.

    I tend to agree, Erdogan's Turkey is almost more trouble than its worth

    If entering into a Russian-led alliance or economic pact, they'd make just as much trouble for Russia as they would for NATO.

    But I'm not really arguing for that. I'm arguing for weakening NATO and developing multi-polarity. A disruptive effect against the primary adversarial alliance that's arming itself against Russia is very much a net positive, even if it doesn't end with Turkey being loyal to some kind of Eurasian framework that Russia would hope to include Turkey in. The more such 'independent' actors we have in the Middle East and Europe, the better it ultimately is for Russia.
    Because Russia is weak against an entire alliance, but stronger than any single one of those states individually and can always leverage ties with a friendly Egypt, a friendly Syria, etc... if the Turks decide to make problems for Russia.

    Russia can work with Turkey on certain issues. But Russia is also free to work with Egypt or Iran on others. Russia has its own relations with every state, the main thing is that these states don't answer to Washington and impose sanctions on Russia; that's already something Russia benefits from. They don't have to answer to Russia.

    But then there's the second argument, which is really that Erdogan is a passing fad. He jumps into every intervention, but that's more him really and his circle, rather than Turkey the state. And there are many circles in Turkey that are interested in building better ties and more integration with Russia, with China, and so on. In time, Turkey can continue to build economic ties with Russia, with the Eurasian Union, become more integrated, build ties with the rest of the BRICS, and find its place in a developing world, and build more stable ties with its neighbours to become a more predictable country.

    This business with NATO cannot last as the US is now calling the bluff and imposing serious sanctions against Ankara. What are their choices at this point? Either bow down and come back hat in hand to the Western community, or continue their present course. Which do you think would be preferable from the perspective of Russia?
    Kiko
    Kiko

    Posts : 244
    Points : 246
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Kiko on Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:58 pm

    Erdogan signed up for Telegram after canceling WhatsApp

    https://m.vz.ru/news/2021/1/12/1079754.html

    Sponsored content

    Turkey relations with US and NATO - Page 9 Empty Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:10 pm