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    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:58 pm

    George1 wrote:The Serbian company DLS Specijalni sistemi doo Beograd is developing a light tank on the chassis of the Soviet 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled guns. A turret with a modified 100-mm T-12 / MT-12 Rapier anti-tank gun is used as a combat module.

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 48011110

    It looks cool...but I wonder if this combat module could be put on new Lazar3 vehicles? Wink
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:33 pm

    George1 wrote:The Serbian company DLS Specijalni sistemi doo Beograd is developing a light tank on the chassis of the Soviet 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled guns. A turret with a modified 100-mm T-12 / MT-12 Rapier anti-tank gun is used as a combat module.

    https://i.servimg.com/u/f95/17/13/61/45/48011110.jpg

    Interesting

    Production of tracked vehicles is a huge weakness for Serbia so I guess reusing Gvozdika chassis is one way to get around it (Lord knows there plenty of them worldwide and are easy to acquire)

    But it would still need plenty of additional armor to make it practical, fortunately armor plates are easier to make than tracked vehicles



    littlerabbit wrote:It looks cool...but I wonder if this combat module could be put on new Lazar3 vehicles? Wink

    Would it be able to carry that weigh? Or handle recoil?

    If yes then I'm sure they are already working on it but this thing really looks massive so I dunno...



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:39 am

    Would be at a disadvantage against other tanks of the last few decades, but against older tanks in Africa like T-54s and T-55s and indeed T-34s it might get away with a lot simply by having better optics and better night vision gear.

    The 100mm gun is reasonably good against tanks of its generation, and would be plenty for use against most BMPs and BTRs as well as having good performance against bunkers and enemy firing positions.

    Once you start up armouring you will enter a spiral of needing a new engine and improved suspension etc etc and pretty soon you end up with something still less capable than you would have if you started with a T-72.

    I would say start with a T-72 if you want a tank... better gun, better armour, just as cheap and widely available.

    If this design is supposed to be amphibious and mobile on soft ground then used correctly it should be on its own in terms of armour... the only other tanks it will come across will be something like Sprut which would not have an enormously large amount of more armour or some light Chinese tank which again wont be heavily armoured either.

    I would say ERA, and really emphasise spaced armour for protection from ATGMs and RPGs but also for buoyancy... the 100mm smoothbore gun is fine... good penetration and good HE round.... anything heavier than that then buy Kornet missiles to engage...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Would be at a disadvantage against other tanks of the last few decades, but against older tanks in Africa like T-54s and T-55s and indeed T-34s it might get away with a lot simply by having better optics and better night vision gear.

    The 100mm gun is reasonably good against tanks of its generation, and would be plenty for use against most BMPs and BTRs as well as having good performance against bunkers and enemy firing positions.

    This is not something that would be used to fight actual tanks, it would be idiotic

    During wars here there was almost zero cases of tanks fighting other tanks, they were alsmost universaly used for infantry support

    This is most likely intended role for this vehicle while MBTs would be reserved for bigger things



    GarryB wrote:Once you start up armouring you will enter a spiral of needing a new engine and improved suspension etc etc and pretty soon you end up with something still less capable than you would have if you started with a T-72.

    There is no way they would leave it on stock Gvozdika chassis, it's too thin and would never get even close to any serious requirements

    Additional armour is definitely coming

    Just compare Lazar-1 and Lazar-3



    GarryB wrote:I would say start with a T-72 if you want a tank... better gun, better armour, just as cheap and widely available...

    Why not just buy whole T-72 then?


    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:24 am

    Why not just buy whole T-72 then?

    That is what I am saying... if you want a light amphibious tank then the 2S1 is ready made and ready to go, but if you want to up armour it then you will find you start adding extra weight which means you need a bigger engine and new transmission and new suspension but it still wont be anything more than a light tank that most ATGMs will cut through like a hot knife through butter.

    Thicken the armour a little bit but no so much you need to change everything... rely on spaced armour... several light layers of armour are good for stopping HMG and very light cannon rounds... especially if you fill the cavities with useful stuff like fuel or just water or ceramic materials.

    If you are demanding decent levels of armour then start with a T-72 instead.... put a smaller lighter but still useful gun... if it is not going to be used against enemy tanks then use the 100mm gun of the BMP-3... tiny rounds you can carry in large numbers and includes a missile if something more dangerous turns up, but with a good HE punch.
    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:30 pm

    Lazar 3 on military parade in Turkmenistan. Cool

    As we know, they bought 24 vehicles, so far.


    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:34 pm

    Another interesting article, considering the future of Lazar 3 in Turkmenistan...apparently, they need to renew a lot, according to Russians, check out comments. Smile

    It is older article, from March, this year.


    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:18 am

    littlerabbit wrote:Lazar 3 on military parade in Turkmenistan. Cool

    As we know, they bought 24 vehicles, so far....

    They already delivered them? affraid

    Holy shit, I thought​ they were still in negotiation phase

    Who are these guys and what have they done to our defense industry?






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    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:32 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    littlerabbit wrote:Lazar 3 on military parade in Turkmenistan. Cool

    As we know, they bought 24 vehicles, so far....

    They already delivered them? affraid

    Holy shit, I thought​ they were still in negotiation phase

    Who are these guys and what have they done to our defense industry?







    Apparently, a new factory in Kursumlija is already making a shit load of Milos M-16 vehicles, I saw only a glimpse of factory and there were at least 6 or 7 unfinished vehicles.

    Factory in Velika Plana can produce up to 100 vehicles per year, so (as I understood) only Lazar 3 and NORA B-52 howitzer will be produced there.
    That should be enough for our needs and for export, I think. I've heard some talk about delivering 2 Lazar 3 every month to Turkmenistan.  unshaven

    Btw, they have 900 BTR 60/70/80's and want to replace them all . respekt

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    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:12 pm

    New Serbian IFV, Lazanski.   respekt

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Lazans10


    Apparently, it has basic protection STANAG 4546 level 4 on all sides and armed with Russian AU220M 57mm turret. Very Happy

    This thing is looking bloody good. cheers

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:07 am


    I guess we officially graduated from MRAPs to full IFVs  Cool

    Little windows are out, big guns are in

    It's namesake would have loved this


    We gonna be finishing Boomerang before Russians do (kidding, kidding...) lol1




    littlerabbit wrote:...Apparently, a new factory in Kursumlija is already making a shit load of Milos M-16 vehicles, I saw only a glimpse of factory and there were at least 6 or 7 unfinished vehicles....

    I remember that too, it was 6 or 7 on just one work station, there was definitely way more than that in total


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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:27 pm

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Fbg_w810
    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Fbg_w811

    GarryB, George1, PapaDragon and littlerabbit like this post

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:19 am


    Apparently Lazanski is not Lazar-3 modification but a brand new platform:

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/partner_2021_news_online_show_daily_defense_exhibition_serbia/yugoimport_unveils_new_lazanski_8x8_armored_vehicle_armed_with_57mm_cannon.html

    ....
    ...The LAZANSKI is a completely new armored vehicle and is not based on the Lazar family of 8x8 armored vehicles. The hull of the LAZANSKI is of all-welded steel construction and is combined with Ceramic armor to reach standard ballistic protection of STANAG 4569 Level 5, against the firing of 25mm caliber weapons. The vehicle can be fitted upgraded to Level 6, offering ballistic protection against 30 mm APFSDS (Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot) or AP (Armor Piercing) ammunition at 500 m. The vehicle incorporates a V-shaped monocoque hull providing mine protection Level 4 STANAG 4569 to withstand an explosion of 10 kg of TNT under the wheels and the center bottom part.

    The layout of the new LAZANSKI consists has the power pack front right, driver front left and the whole of the remainder of the hull rear being left free for the troop compartment. The vehicle has a crew of three including a driver, commander and gunner while the rear part of the vehicle is able to accommodate up to 10 infantrymen that are seated on anti-mine blast seats. A hydraulic ramp is located at the rear of the hull allowing the infantrymen to quickly enter or leave the vehicle.
    ........
    The LAZANSKI is powered by a Turbocharged Caterpillar C13 engine developing 711 hp coupled to a 6-speed automatic Allison 4000SP transmission. The drive train consists of SISU axles with electro-pneumatic locks on all sub-elements. The vehicle has a gross vehicle weight from 26 to 36 tons depending on the armor configuration.....

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Yugoimport_unveils_new_LAZANSKI_8x8_armored_vehicle_armed_with_57mm_cannon_925_001

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Yugoimport_unveils_new_LAZANSKI_8x8_armored_vehicle_armed_with_57mm_cannon_925_002


    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 1130604980_0:0:3072:2048_640x0_80_0_0_3852f8926fb6cf9ca3dae65034079e6e.jpg

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:01 pm


    The vehicle has a crew of three including a driver, commander and gunner while the rear part of[b] the vehicle is able to accommodate up to 10 infantrymen [
    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 FBh-IEaVkAo1tb1?format=jpg&name=large
    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 FBh-IFXVQAIo6F7?format=jpg&name=large
    Seems the crew are seated tip to butt occupying the driver's compartment and the adjoining access tunnel. Very compact seating arrangement with not much empty space.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:19 am

    Zoran Vukosavljevic
    @ZoranVukosavlje
    ·
    13 Oct
    New improved Strela-10M with thermal camera, laser rangefinder, pasive radio-locators and modified 9M37M missile marked as RLN-S10, range 10 km/ 5 km on height!
    @MihajlovicMike
    @gunner_schmulke


    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 FBmKBBHXIAEijM8?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:53 am

    That's a serbian system I think. Anyway looks much better than previous versions.

    They should have added 2 more missiles.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:54 am

    Those passive radio sensors were also used on SA-13 and SA-9 and were used to detect the weak signal from radio altimeters used on aircraft and missiles to fly low while avoiding terrain.... and also of course terrain following radar.

    They look like they have lengthened the missiles, which is a bit excessive considering the SOSNA is intended to replace it in Russian service.

    AFAIK the current model Strela-10M already has a thermal channel with its seeker to improve performance against small targets that are not hot jet engine exhausts.

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:06 am

    GarryB wrote:Those passive radio sensors were also used on SA-13 and SA-9 and were used to detect the weak signal from radio altimeters used on aircraft and missiles to fly low while avoiding terrain.... and also of course terrain following radar.

    They look like they have lengthened  the missiles, which is a bit excessive considering the SOSNA is intended to replace it in Russian service.

    AFAIK the current model Strela-10M already has a thermal channel with its seeker to improve performance against small targets that are not hot jet engine exhausts.

    It's this will be offered for export only to poorer nations who can't afford SOSNA, or offered as a cheap upgrade within Russian forces where the 10km.range is all they needed maybe offering such a system to airborne forces and if captured by enemy they won't be giving away SOSNA secrets lol. I think either way it's good cheap upgrade, the system is still pretty good and the warhead is more powerful than a MANPAD which can be useful against armoured helis or A-10 where a heavier warhead would be better. For info warhead weight
    Verba 1.5kg
    SOSNA 7kg
    Sa-13 5kg
    This newer longer missile could have bigger warhead.
    And I suppose there will be costs per missile to consider as well.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:41 pm

    The designation for the missile is wrong, and they have only recently upgraded the SA-13 in Russian service to a new model with better optical seeker... but while its range increased it hasn't doubled.

    I suspect this is a Serbian upgrade and is in the wrong thread.

    The 9M100 missile is likely to replace the SA-13 together with the SOSNA/Pine.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:15 pm

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 92635810



    medo
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    Post  medo Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:30 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Zoran Vukosavljevic
    @ZoranVukosavlje
    ·
    13 Oct
    New improved Strela-10M with thermal camera, laser rangefinder, pasive radio-locators and modified 9M37M missile marked as RLN-S10, range 10 km/ 5 km on height!
    @MihajlovicMike
    @gunner_schmulke


    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 FBmKBBHXIAEijM8?format=jpg&name=medium

    This is Serbian modernisation of Strela-10.

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 65870_10

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 65870_11

    They add a buster engine to original Strela-10 missile to increase the range to 10 km. Question is its IR/EO seeker/homing head, at which range it could detect the target. I know, Poland have some problems, when they developed their Piorun 2 missile for Poprad VSHORAD, which should have 10+ (12) km range. Piorun 2 missile use the same IR homing head as Igla (SAM-18) or Polish copy Grom MANPAD and have max detecting range at 8 km, so they use laser beam riding in the first phase to bring missile close enough for IR seeker to detect and lock the target.

    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Budowa10
    Piorun 2 missile
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:35 pm

    Increasing range isn't only meant to hit at longer ranges. It also means that the missile has better kinematics in its effective range.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:10 am

    Makes vehicle design easier when the turret is non penetrating so it does not take up space in the hull.
    GarryB
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    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports - Page 10 Empty Temporary Serbian air defence missile information thread

    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:48 am

    Increasing range isn't only meant to hit at longer ranges. It also means that the missile has better kinematics in its effective range.

    Not really... the extra booster is to extend flight range, but if it cannot lock at max range then that only works in a chasing engagement with the target moving away from the SAM... which would be ideal for an IR SAM as you would see the engine exhaust of the target, but shooting down approaching targets it usually more valuable than receeding ones.

    I seem to remember during the HATO campaign that the Serbs used all sorts of missiles... including R-73s with solid rocket boosters to get them moving from a ground launch... this could be further applications of what they learned... but Off Topic  for this thread.

    BTW a solid rocket booster will improve performance but wont make it cheaper... and I suspect the extra weight means it can only carry four missiles instead of the original 6.

    Interesting a laser rangefinder has replaced the radar rangefinder, but they retain the EW boxes either side of the gunners window that detect electronic emissions from the target avoiding the ground with radio altimeters and terrain following radar.

    All in all its sensors seem to be passive except for its laser range finder, which will only be used on targets at extreme range to ensure they are in range of the weapon. I wont be horrendously expensive but will be passive so hard for most air forces to spot before it is too late and should have a reasonable chance for a kill... the two stages means it should have good energy attacking the target and the SA-13 missile has a much more substantial HE warhead than MANPADS which is important if the target is armoured or rather big. Would be excellent against ground attack aircraft and attack helicopters and likely would be cheap enough for most major drone types that would otherwise be serious problems for many air defence vehicles.

    The passive EW sensors could locate datalinks to make finding drones much easier too...

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