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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:14 pm

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Performance wise of Elbrus 8SM was around a xeon of the more recent series. So I don't know why all the hate KVS.

    Also, this is a prototype. Wait till newer prototypes are out.

    Spare the hyperbole.   Hate is an obvious mischaracterization of my post.   Nobody is supposed to worship everything that MCST does.

    Here is a fact for you: the Elbrus chips are supposed to be used in Russian HPC systems.   So my comments are right on target.
    Hiding behind "military applications" is pure BS.   That would make Russia a military-kolonka that does not care about it civilian economy.
    If Russia want to support domestic science and engineering it needs to stop artificially limiting its prime domestic CPU and get people
    who have a clue on the job.   Right now it looks like the chip is being treated like it is intended for $50 appliances.   Ironic given its
    touted "military" credentials.

    Where is the improved FPU prototype?   I guess it's not a priority.


    Don't be aggressive when you don't need to be.

    I'll put it simple: they have a chip equivalent to a Intel 4960x in terms of performance. While, yes a change to the Elbrus architecture can yield better results, it's still an amazing leap from nearly nothing to this. We already seen Elbrus 4S and 8SM in action.

    I got myself a 10500 ES chip here. It is quite different than overall 10400f processor. But hey, whatever.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:31 am

    The most powerful Russian processor will be 32-core and made according to the 7 nm technology
    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Elbrus-uzmgghx2-1603994650.t

    Representatives of MCST JSC reported that this year the company will start developing the most

    fast processor Elbrus next generation. It will be used for high performance computing and storage systems. It is planned that Elbrus-32C will be created using 7 nm technology, and the first working samples of the Russian 32-core processor will appear in 2025.

    The first plans for the Elbrus-32S told the general director of "MCST" Alexander Kim in an interview with the magazine "Expert".

    According to Kim, MCST has already shown that it is able to create technologies and products within the country that can provide adequate information security and correspond in performance to foreign counterparts. Now the company has a new goal - to design and manufacture Elbrus-32C.

    According to the CNEWS portal, the representative of MCST, Alexander Kim, explained that the new microprocessor will be made according to the 7 nm technology, although earlier versions of 6 nm were called.

    Other characteristics and parameters of Elbrus-32S MCST have not disclosed at the moment.

    Although it is planned that Elbrus-32C will be designed domestically and based on Russian technologies, it will be manufactured at the Taiwanese TSMC factory. Russian manufacturers do not have the equipment to manufacture such systems.
    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Samyi_moshnyi_rossiiskii_processor_budet_32-yadernym_i_sdelannym_po_tehnorme_7_nm-e27w4tqe-1603994650.t
    Technical characteristics of Elbrus processors of the past (4C), current (8C), new (8CB) and future (16C) generations in comparison with similar Intel x86 processors.

    Earlier in early October 2020, the Elbrus architecture developer announced the receipt of the first engineering sample of the Elbrus-16S microprocessor. The launch of serial production of Elbrus-16S is scheduled for the end of 2021. Currently, the company's specialists are conducting research on the resulting engineering sample. They have already been able to load the Elbrus Linux operating system on it.

    Also in October 2020, MCST released a new version of the Elbrus Linux distribution - a general-purpose operating system of the GNU / Linux family for computers based on the Elbrus, SPARC and x86 architecture. The sixth version of "Elbrus Linux" is based on a modified Linux 5.4 kernel and includes technical solutions for Debian GNU / Linux and the LFS project. The distribution kit "Elbrus Linux" 6.0 (64-bit) for PCs with x86 processor architecture is available for download to all users free of charge. List of packages "Elbrus Linux" 6.0.

    https://vpk.name/news/459093_samyi_moshnyi_rossiiskii_processor_budet_32-yadernym_i_sdelannym_po_tehnorme_7_nm.html

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    Big_Gazza
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:54 am

    Although it is planned that Elbrus-32C will be designed domestically and based on Russian technologies, it will be manufactured at the Taiwanese TSMC factory. Russian manufacturers do not have the equipment to manufacture such systems.

    Thats a fail in my book. What is stopping the US from being a pack of c*nts and leaning on TSMC to withdraw their servces like they did for Huawei and its advanced chipsets???

    Import substitution still has a long way to go.

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    LMFS
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  LMFS Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:46 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Thats a fail in my book.  What is stopping the US from being a pack of c*nts and leaning on TSMC to withdraw their servces like they did for Huawei and its advanced chipsets???

    Import substitution still has a long way to go.

    Agree, but such technology is ultra-expensive and difficult to implement. China and Russia are in the same boat in terms of substituting Taiwanese and Korean technology tied to Western pressure, they should team up for this.
    kvs
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:17 am

    MCST is relying on lithography shrinking to get more out of the design. This is only part of the proper approach. The other one
    is optimizing the transistor layout. I am assuming something like this is being done, but originally the TSMC production line was
    using off the shelf transistor block layouts. Having a CPU design is not the same as having an optimized rendering in silicon.

    We have seen 32 core CPUs from AMD that are using 12 nm "FinFet":

    https://www.globalfoundries.com/sites/default/files/product-briefs/pb-12lp-11-web.pdf

    The Elbrus had a substantially smaller number of transistors compared to Intel x86 designs when it was first mass produced. That
    is why it had ultra low power output. A huge part of the transistor count goes to L1, L2 and even L3 caches in modern
    CPUs, but the Elbrus still has a some sort of advantage in terms of lower number of transistors. It most likely has something
    to do with its VLIW design and the use of the compiler to do what x86 does in hardware. The Intel Itanium tried this but
    was a failed effort to "rip off" the Elbrus since it made no sense of Intel to dabble with such a non sequitur branch to its
    hardware focus since the 1970s. Russians are really good at coding and software technology is not trivial and secondary
    to hardware.

    To wit, the Elbrus 32 core can be rendered on 14 nm. So they are kicking the can down the road in terms of properly laying
    out this processor. And 14 nm is actually achievable for Russian IC manufacturers.

    https://www.zelenograd.ru/hitech/v-zelenograde-namereny-postroit-fabriku-chipov-28-nanometrov/

    We have 28 nm production capacity being deployed. This easily allows 8 core Elbrus processors to be manufactured in
    Russia. Relying on TSMC is a bad idea.



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    miketheterrible
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:40 am

    Russia may switch to Chinese nodes since China is working closer to 7nm upcoming.

    But while I agree it should be done in Russia, I dunno what overall plans are.

    They may wait till they move more to 3d chip design.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:17 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Russia may switch to Chinese nodes since China is working closer to 7nm upcoming.

    But while I agree it should be done in Russia, I dunno what overall plans are.

    They may wait till they move more to 3d chip design.

    China is safer than Taiwan as an offshore production point, but it is the same problem of having your jewelry in someone else's
    pocket.

    Even if Russia goes down the photonics pathway, there is a clear need for conventional silicon IC production inside Russia.
    Aiming for short term transition to 14 nm would be ideal. The 7 nm target is more hype than substance. In fact, 7 nm
    is too close to the 3 nm molecular cluster transition limit where continuum mechanics does not apply. So there is no
    "material" to have predictable properties and which can be molded into functional components. There is talk of going to
    5 nm but I think that will be entering the excessive error rate regime. It is already an achievement to be using 7 nm but
    the end of the line is fast approaching.

    Hence there is a need for photonics. Photonics will allow 3D in 2D hardware. Different frequencies of photon can be
    use in the same "wires" but only one type of electrical current. So a chromatically selective photonic transistor (likely
    some sort of complex not as simple as any of the current conventional IC transistors) would enable multiple IC layers
    to coexist on a single plane. The different photon frequencies can be routed into different domains of a generic transistor
    grid (sort of like FPGAs) to deploy the 3D aspect.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:01 pm

    "Baikal electronics" orders hundreds of thousands of chips from TSMC for billion-dollar projects

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    PhSt
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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 22 Empty Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  PhSt Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:51 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:"Baikal electronics" orders hundreds of thousands of chips from TSMC for billion-dollar projects

    Isn't this going to encounter possible "complications" since TSMC is based in Taiwan? we know Taiwan is a US lackey.. It would be best if Russia develops its own semiconductor industry so they wouldn't have to rely on foreign fab foundries to manufacture chips for them.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:30 am

    Orders like this will be a blip on the radar of those who make sanctions... eventually they are going to notice such blips and choose to target such orders with sanctions...

    When that happens Russia will have to spend money on domestic alternatives... until then it saves a lot of money though it does take some risk of sanctions.

    When it happens it will be short term painful but will allow Russia to develop its own capabilities in this regard which in the longer term will be more against western interests that good for them because such capabilities will be of use to them in the future.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:32 am

    PhSt wrote:
    Isn't this going to encounter possible "complications" since TSMC is based in Taiwan?  we know Taiwan is a US lackey.. It would be best if Russia develops its own semiconductor industry so they wouldn't have to rely on foreign fab foundries to manufacture chips for them.

    True. But consider if word gets out that Taiwan tampers with its customer's orders: The damage to their reputation is going to be measured in tens of billions of future business alone, and people would be incensed to actually spend on their own chip fabs. I don't think they would be willing to risk it, even for such a paltry contract such as this. But who knows?
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:38 pm

    The original news with many details both technical and industrial here:

    https://www.cnews.ru/news/top/2020-11-30_bajkal_elektroniks_vypustit

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:56 pm

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/domestic-16-core-processor-elbrus-16s-has-russia-really-caught-up/

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:52 pm

    Hole wrote:https://www.stalkerzone.org/domestic-16-core-processor-elbrus-16s-has-russia-really-caught-up/

    Still no real push to manufacture it in Russia as opposed to Taiwan.

    The author also does not understand CPU clock frequencies are not some intrinsic measure of speed. They merely reflect the
    number of pipeline stages. So the Pentium 4 with its high clock rate back around the year 2000 achieved this since it had
    long pipelines with small stages. It was also crap that was prone to pipeline bubbles and was replaced by the "Core" model
    that had much less pipeline stages. Of course lithography resolution increases maintained the clock around 3 GHz. But
    if you not there has not really been much increase in Intel CPU clock rates over the last 15 years compared to the 15 years
    previous to 2005.

    The VLIW principles behind the Elbrus automatically make it a short pipeline design with complex and large pipeline stages.
    This "wide" format allows it to execute more instructions per stage so it has a lower clock but a higher productivity per
    clock cycle compared to something like the Pentium 4. The 300 MHz E2000 was not "absurd". It was effectively a
    1 to 1.5 GHz "Intel" analogue. But it also was not transistor optimized. Intel spends a lot of time and effort and money
    to hand tune its transistor layouts. If MCST was able to do this then the E2000 would have been close to 3 GHz equivalent.

    Regarding manufacture in Russia, the 28 nm process is good enough to produce the 16 core version on Russian soil. The
    hype 7nm and 14nm fabrication processes are nothing of the sort (see my post in the general physics thread). The 28 nm
    process without FinFet likely involves actual transistor sizes below 50 nm. The magic 7 nm transistor sizes are in reality
    over 20 nm in size. So the silicon foundry gap is closing.


    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:19 pm

    I have been a regular visitor to another forum (sinodefence) and from the discussions there concerning Chinese developments in the semiconductor industry it seems domestic Chinese companies like SMIC are having difficulties manufacturing chips with 7nm and 5nm process to compete with competitors like TSMC. It seems China still relies on the US and other suppliers for machinery and essential tools for production. How sophisticated is this field of science? and since China is heavily investing in this area, perhaps it is something that can be considered an essential strategic industry (just like aircraft engine production) that Russia needs to focus on.
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:04 pm

    KRETs update regarding electronics. http://www.promweekly.ru/archive/kret/2021/KRET_1-2021.pdf

    "high-frequency (microwave) tubes and analog waveguide components with solid-state microwave equivalents: low-noise emitters
    low-power amplifiers, phase shifters,
    complete PPMs made by technology
    Monolithic microwave semiconductor integrated circuits (MMIC - Monolithic
    Microwave Integrated Circuit).
    As technology improves
    in the last decade and a half, constantly
    improved characteristics of PPM based on monolithic integrated circuits of the microwave range and
    their cost decreased. When used in
    gallium arsenide, then gallium nitride MMIC technology, the power output per module increased exponentially in normal ranges
    Radar. The continuous exponential growth of the performance of individual circuits is expected to continue as they improve.
    materials technology.
    MULTIFUNCTIONAL
    SYSTEMS
    Another important trend in the development of modern radar technology is the creation of multifunctional systems operating on the same platform, possibly through one
    and the same physical aperture. On ships or
    airplanes, it can be a combination of radars for various purposes (observation, detection,
    tracking, target illumination), communication lines in various frequency ranges and broadband
    electronic warfare systems.
    This allows you to reduce the size of stationary equipment on the carrier, increase
    the ability to control and monitor the electromagnetic fields of antennas and reduce the cost
    radar equipment. However
    certain difficulties with this approach
    may be related to EMC problems.
    RADAR
    SYSTEMS WITH SYNTHESIZED
    APERTURE
    Synthetic aperture radars, widely used to create
    high-resolution 3D images, appeared four decades ago as
    a productive solution to the problem of restrictions,
    related to the aperture interface.
    Diffraction analysis shows that for
    obtaining permission from a radar station operating in
    L-band (wavelength 30 cm) at a distance
    several kilometers, the physical dimensions of the antenna should be approximately equal to the range,
    that is, several kilometers.
    The solution is to use the linear nature of Maxwell's equations for
    creation of a synthetic aperture of the phased array by using a series of time samples,
    received on a small consistent
    movable antenna in those spatial
    points at which one would need to have real
    PAR elements in a physical antenna. Data
    samples are collected and jointly processed to obtain the desired three-dimensional
    high resolution images.
    The growth of digital computational processing capabilities expands the areas of practical application of the synthetic aperture radar concept.
    DIGITAL
    RADAR SYSTEMS
    According to American experts,
    future generations of radars will not be based
    only on solid-state phased array, but almost entirely on digital technology. As
    used analog devices will remain
    terminal input stages for coupling the antenna to the external environment for receiving analog
    Microwave signals.
    The received signals will be digitized and transmitted
    on broadband fiber optic
    communication lines for appropriate funds
    processing remotely located outside
    apertures for digital formation of the beam pattern,
    in-phase and quadrature generation, compression
    impulses, suppression of interfering echoes, target allocation, multivariate tracking.
    Likewise, in transmit mode, digitally generated waveforms will be
    generated outside the aperture and distributed over fiber optic lines at
    separate elements of the antenna, where it will be emit digital-to-analog conversion
    and power amplification on the MMIC. During transmission
    all signals in digital form phase
    the shift required for reception and transmission can be digitally performed by delaying signals to varying degrees
    towards or away from the individual antenna elements.
    This approach removes the need for
    use of analog phase shifters in
    PPM and allows you to get without much effort
    the possibility of digital control of the position of the DNA with an accurate time delay.
    The main advantages of digital radar
    associated with the possibility of a significant reduction in the size of the required analog
    receiving equipment and with architectural
    flexibility due to the possibility of remote placement of some components
    Radar in places remote from the antenna on board
    plane or ship. Their disadvantages include the high cost of the ones used in them.
    high-speed analog-to-digital or digital-to-analog converters with large
    dynamic range. Also required
    large computing power of the order
    teraflop (1012 op / s).
    PHOTONICS
    In recent years, the concept of use in radars has become widespread.
    photonics. The term "photonics" is somewhat inaccurate. It is used to refer to
    optical means, i.e. lasers, optical
    communication lines, mirrors, lenses, various hybrid
    components that combine optical, electro-optical and electronic elements into monolithic structures known as optoelectronic integrated circuits (OEIC - Optoelectronic
    Integrated Circuit).
    With regard to radar, photonics refers to
    usually to broadband analogue optical propagation of microwave signals and
    real-time delay control. Placement of microwave signals on optical media
    completely changes the physics of propagation
    signals, therefore inconvenient, often large and expensive waveguide structures, traditionally used for distribution
    Microwave signals from the PAR elements and back are replaced by miniature, lightweight and cheap
    fiber-optic communication lines.
    There are still many unresolved problems in this matter. R&D for the improvement and development of photonic technology
    components continue.
    Photonic radars will compete in the future with digital
    Radars, the concept of which also uses
    photonics in a more perfect form in the form
    fiber-optic digital communication lines.
    As with coherent optical processing
    signals in synthetic aperture radar
    the rate of development of digital technology is currently exceeding the rate of development of photonics. Given the state of the art of these two
    technologies, digital methods are getting more
    wide use. Despite synchronization problems, digital stations are more flexible and flexible. Although photon radar may find applications
    in the field of highly specific tasks, it is unlikely
    will it provide a solution to the general tasks inherent in
    digital methods.
    COMPLEX
    PURPOSE CHARACTERISTICS
    Collecting with additional sensors
    information about the goal, according to experts,
    is one of the important trends in the improvement of electronic weapons,
    solving problems of target recognition. Such a possibility can be realized by observing the target using either one
    of the same sensor in different spectral
    ranges, or several sensors located in different places. In technology
    Both methods are practiced by radars. In a number of heads
    homing, currently being developed, the first method is used - observation in several widely spaced
    spectral bands to obtain complementary target information. Method two
    used in automated systems
    air defense control of the operational compound of the Navy
    (CEC - Cooperative Engagement Capability), in which many ship and aircraft radars
    united by modern communication systems
    into a single information network. By distributing
    data from all radars located in a certain area, and synthesizing results to eliminate duplication or resolve explicit
    contradictions, it is possible to create a single radar display of the space of combat
    action.
    BISTATIC
    AND MULTISTATIC
    SYSTEMS
    The provision of the US Armed Forces with new types of active radars is limited by capabilities
    use of noise-immune sources
    radio frequency radiation. Many active
    tactical radars, in addition to their basic functions,
    can jointly or autonomously execute
    function of target illumination in bistatic or
    multistatic modes. For military purposes, several bistatic radars have been developed,
    but in general they are found to be less effective,
    than conventional monostatic. However, the stations
    in which the receiver and transmitter are located
    in one place are good targets
    for complete destruction by anti-radar missiles. Multistatic radar systems that use existing geographically dispersed emitters for such attacks
    invulnerable.
    It is possible that the subsequent development of this
    field of technology can provide the Navy
    new types of radars that do not require super-powerful transmitters and function
    almost completely hidden. This requires a significant amount of additional
    research.
    PASSIVE FORMATION
    IMAGES
    Passive imaging is based on the use of the intrinsic radio emission of various objects and
    from the external natural environment of background illuminating radiation, as it happens in
    eyes or television cameras. The same principle can be adopted for imaging with radar and means of working
    in the range of millimeter waves. According to American specialists, this will make it possible to make a technological breakthrough in the field of creating tools that provide an opportunity
    observing objects hidden by a smoke screen,
    foliage and camouflage. The surfaces of natural objects emit electromagnetic energy in the radio frequency range, spectral
    whose density depends on temperature and
    emissivity. Highly reflective metal surfaces
    (hence low emissivity) reflect signals well from all other
    natural sources of radiation, of which
    the most significant is the sky, and therefore
    look in comparison with the background of the earth's surface as a very cold spot. The presence of such
    irregularities with a sufficient antenna aperture, providing a narrow beam pattern and high
    permission, allows for passive
    formation of radar images.
    ELECTRO-OPTICAL SYSTEMS
    The value of optical
    area of ​​the electromagnetic spectrum, the use of which in difficult weather conditions
    assessed as limited. However, its capabilities are extremely useful for creating
    2D and 3D images with high
    spatial resolution at small
    observation apertures in conditions
    good visibility. As high-precision weapon systems with low side
    damage optical systems become necessary for automatic recognition
    and target selection, identification of guidance points,
    high-precision target designation and guidance at the end of the trajectory, as well as for routine observation.
    Passive imaging. The efficiency of modern optics sharply increases with the development of providing
    electronic computers and semiconductor microelectronic technology.
    New materials are being developed for semiconductor detectors in the optical spectral range. This allows you to quickly
    develop technologies and create flat focal imaging matrices
    and use semiconductor integrated
    circuits with a large number of elements of photodetectors and electronic readout circuits from
    them signals.
    The rate of increase in the number of picture elements on an integrated circuit chip
    is exponential. Wherein
    the most promising are visible
    and near infrared spectral ranges
    due to the fact that highly efficient photodetectors can be manufactured for them.
    silicon based. Using readout electronics based on it, it is possible to manufacture
    monolithic flat matrix of photodetectors
    as a technological basis for obtaining high-definition images, widely used in the television industry, for
    production of portable digital video cameras that record image and sound.
    MULTI AND HYPERSPECTRAL
    SIGNATURES
    Another trend inherent in radar technology and optics is
    increased interest in the collection of complex characteristics or the so-called multidimensional
    object signatures for a more reliable understanding of images. Dual-mode heads
    homing missiles that use
    two different infrared (IR) ranges,
    selected in accordance with the conditions of their operation, have demonstrated high efficiency in the conditions of the use of infrared devices
    counteraction and significant reduction
    number of false alarms caused by
    phenomena such as glare from the sun.
    This article is based on
    analysis of publications in foreign scientific, technical and periodicals, materials of exhibitions, international conferences and
    symposia as well as official communications
    government bodies and firms
    United States regarding information about the used and
    promising technologies in the field of shipborne electronic weapons systems.
    In particular, research materials from the US National Academy of Sciences, research organizations and laboratories were used.
    United States Navy, Industry and University"

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:56 am

    Uncle Sham tried to sabotage T-Platform supercomputers (for strategic reasons), and the Russkies responded with Elbrus-90S:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t5946p50-a-135-moscow-abm-system#310191
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    Post  kvs Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:08 am

    PhSt wrote:I have been a regular visitor to another forum (sinodefence) and from the discussions there concerning Chinese developments in the semiconductor industry it seems domestic Chinese companies like SMIC are having difficulties manufacturing chips with 7nm and 5nm process to compete with competitors like TSMC. It seems China still relies on the US and other suppliers for machinery and essential tools for production. How sophisticated is this field of science? and since China is heavily investing in this area, perhaps it is something that can be considered an essential strategic industry (just like aircraft engine production) that Russia needs to focus on.

    The so-called 7 nm finFet from TSMC is actually a 10 nm process. This was demonstrated by a video where an AMD Ryzen CPU had
    a piece of it extracted with a highly precise instrument (see the physics thread). Anything under 10 nm right now is marketing BS.
    So I am not sure how much of a real problem is actually involved in China. Dependence on US companies is a real weakness just
    as it is for Russia.

    But my impression is that China can actually manufacture 10+ nm class ICs.

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    Post  Scorpius Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:23 pm




    Tests of various games running on the Elbrus 801-PC workstation.

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    Post  Kiko Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:53 pm

    ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ELBRUS PROCESSOR
    February 21, 2021

    I have to say that specific advertising policy of the former head of MCST Babayan in the form of periodic high-profile claims that the new processor Elbrus E2K is about to “break” Intel, permanently ending zilch, being zero from the beginning, has raised in me distrust of this company since the beginning of the 2000s. Moreover, when Babayan with a team of leading employees left for Intel in 2004, I thought that this was definitely all.

    And yes, the company went quiet, and all the following years just quietly profited from something for the defence industry, almost without communicating with the outside world. It withdrew into itself. With long interruptions, it dryly posted new versions of processors on its website:

    2005 – Elbrus-2000, which turned out to be a very simplified version of the E2K. Processor technology 130 nm, frequency 300 MHz, 1 core.
    2010 and 2011 – Elbrus-S and Elbrus-2C+. Processor technology is 90 nm, the frequency is 500 MHz, 1 and 2 cores, respectively.
    2014 – Elbrus-4C. 65 nm processor technology, frequency 800 MHz, 4 cores.

    All of this was produced and financed for the defence industry, and so everything would have been sluggish and continued further, if not for the events of 2014. The fall in the ruble exchange rate and the sanctions of the western world have led to the need to have their own computing equipment not only in the military, but also in the civilian segment. But, I must say, the Medvedev government was particularly slow to do so.

    The movement around the Elbrus processors intensified in an avalanche in 2020, exactly with the arrival of the Mishustin government. Probably just a coincidence… In general, it became clear that the government is planning something big, which was confirmed by the unprecedented government resolutions of the end of last year 2020. Why in the media it even slipped out, somehow sluggishly – it is not clear. Media leaders don’t understand the scale of what is happening?

    I will start with the fact that from January 1st 2022, in order to obtain the status of Russian equipment and supply products to state structures, it is required to use a Russian central processor or controller in its composition (paragraph 2458 of 31.12.2020). Previously, this requirement was only applicable to data storage systems (paragraph 719 of 17.07.2015).

    Nevertheless, the first and successful attempt to introduce Elbrus into civilian state structures nevertheless began in 2016, and since May 2017 the first data processing centre was introduced at the passport and visa service based on Elbrus-4C processors (back then about 130 servers, now already about 200 servers) instead of the IBM mainframes, which have been there since 2006, the cost of technical and service maintenance of which has suddenly increased. Thus, the cost of 1 year of maintenance of IBM mainframes has actually become comparable to the purchase of a data centre based on Elbrus.

    From January 1st 2022, the requirement for a domestic processor or controller applies to almost any electronics, including ATMs, cash registers (processor or ad valorem part), I/O devices, monitors, peripherals (for example, printers) and “semiconductor storage devices” (controller in solid-state drives). There is also a requirement for quotas (paragraph 2013) for the purchase of radio-electronic equipment, and several other standards and proposals that are likely to become standards in the coming months.

    Since the transition to a different architecture of the central processor in the equipment produced in Russia is often quite a complex process, measures of state support for companies developing products based on Russian processors (paragraph 109 and paragraph 529) have also been worked out. For example, the Ministry of Industry and Trade gives grants and subsidies for the creation of equipment with a Russian processor. The Ministry of Finance may also give similar grants, and there is a discussion about this. In the same way, the development of automatic design systems (CAD) and the development of electronic components and chips are supported. There is a program to subsidise consumers. And add to this the tax benefits for IT companies!

    The scale of the measures taken indicates the seriousness of the state’s intentions to implement a massive transition of industry and state structures to domestic equipment. This can be treated in different ways (there will always be opponents), but at the moment it becomes obvious that a clear practical course has finally been taken on import substitution in radio electronics, and it is happening!

    From the above, it follows that radio electronics engineers and programmers of system and application software have a new potentially very promising direction, which already needs to be actively studied, especially since several large successful projects have already been implemented on the basis of Elbrus processors:

    In addition, a very high-load system for the Ministry of Internal Affairs (Center for the Automated Recording of Administrative Offences) is currently being deployed in Elbrus, where video analytics will be conducted in real time and there will be large databases. The system is expected to be completed by the end of 2021.

    I think that now more and more new projects of this kind will actively appear.

    Now companies that used to develop motherboards and build servers and other computing equipment based on x86 processors are actively expanding their solutions with lines based on the Elbrus processor. There are already about a dozen of them, and in the future there will be hundreds of them.

    In connection with such activity of everything and everything, I think that Elbrus processors will soon catch up with Intel and AMD in performance, and maybe even approach them in cost due to the volume in the batch and taking into account the unprecedented measures of state support.

    I think that our own factory is not far off. After all, in one of the drafts of the “strategy for the development of the electronic industry of the Russian Federation for the period up to 2030” for 2022-2025 there is the development of microelectronic products at the technological level of 28 nm and below, and development at the level of 14 nm and below, although the final document does not contain such specifics. There, with more general terms until 2030, the development and industrial development of silicon technologies for the production of electronic components with topological standards of 65-45 nm, 28 nm, 14-12 nm, 7-5 nm and subsequent production of products based on them, as well as the development of products based on silicon technology with a topological norm of 5 nm, followed by the production of products based on them at foreign factories and the transfer of production to the Russian Federation, are recorded. It is planned to create silicon factories operating in a “foundry” mode for the production of digital integrated circuits with topological standards of 28 nm, 14-12 nm, 7-5 nm.

    I wonder if the norms of 5 nm will be relevant in 10 years? Perhaps, since science has almost reached the physical limit of microminiaturisation, and further reduction in size will affect the durability of such products. Perhaps productivity growth will take a different path.

    Elektromozg

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/about-the-russian-elbrus-processor/

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    Post  kvs Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:55 pm

    How can somebody write an article about the Elbrus today and totally omit any reference to the 8 core version? Then
    why bother listing any of the previous models?

    http://mcst.ru/elbrus-8c
    http://www.ineum.ru/elbrus_801-pc

    The rest of the article reads like an internet forum post with basically no real information about either Russian IC fabrication
    or development plans for the Elbrus (e.g. native 64 bit floating point).



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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:08 pm

    I heard Elbrus 16C which is next and apparently already seen, is more than simple core increase. Apparently more of an IPC improvement too.
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    Post  kvs Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:54 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I heard Elbrus 16C which is next and apparently already seen, is more than simple core increase. Apparently more of an IPC improvement too.

    I hope they make more effort with cost-free 64 bit floating point. They should also add more FPUs for vectorization.

    In the article we have the author harping about how the Elbrus needs to catch up to Intel and x86. The Elbrus should
    never be subjected to this "race". It is rigged from the start. Recall back in the 1990s we had Cyrix CPUs "failing to deliver"
    with Quake supposedly because they had inferior FPUs. It turns out that Quake used the FPU for integer manipulation
    and not as an actual floating point unit. Cyrix did not fail when code did not use Pentium specific optimization hacks.
    Using write combining would achieve similar performance but without the Pentium specific trickery.

    The Elbrus should be used to create a Russian software ecosystem instead of trying to import western rubbish (yes
    rubbish). Russia should ban Micr$haft software from any institutional use. Ridiculous bloat with built in back doors
    for NSA infiltration. No thanks. In terms of real productivity, the test is in HPC environments. Here is where the
    improvement effort should be (i.e. expanded floating point power).

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:59 pm

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I heard Elbrus 16C which is next and apparently already seen, is more than simple core increase. Apparently more of an IPC improvement too.

    I hope they make more effort with cost-free 64 bit floating point.   They should also add more FPUs for vectorization.

    In the article we have the author harping about how the Elbrus needs to catch up to Intel and x86.   The Elbrus should
    never be subjected to this "race".   It is rigged from the start.   Recall back in the 1990s we had Cyrix CPUs "failing to deliver"
    with Quake supposedly because they had inferior FPUs.  It turns out that Quake used the FPU for integer manipulation
    and not as an actual floating point unit.   Cyrix did not fail when code did not use Pentium specific optimization hacks.
    Using write combining would achieve similar performance but without the Pentium specific trickery.

    The Elbrus should be used to create a Russian software ecosystem instead of trying to import western rubbish (yes
    rubbish).   Russia should ban Micr$haft software from any institutional use.   Ridiculous bloat with built in back doors
    for NSA infiltration.   No thanks.   In terms of real productivity, the test is in HPC environments.   Here is where the
    improvement effort should be (i.e. expanded floating point power).


    Well, that is the purpose of Elbrus OS.

    The loss in performance in the 64bit floating point has more to do with emulation in Windows environment than anything as they advertise the whole emulating Windows with this processor.

    We should see what happens but it is rather becoming a solid CPU especially in workstation and server environment. Data storage and what not.

    I am also intrigued to see if they will do a RISC-V architecture too. They already do SPARC.
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    Post  kvs Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:42 pm

    Actually the current Elbrus implementations all take a big hit from 64 bit floating point compared to 32 bit. This
    has nothing to do with emulation. The Elbrus simply does not have 64 bit wide FPUs.

    The 8 core variant has the following official numbers:

    Пиковая производительность:

    25 операций в такт в каждом ядре (8 цел., 12 веществ.)
    250 GFLOPS одинарной точности, 125 GFLOPS двойной точности

    There is a factor of two hit from using 64 bit (double precision) floating point.

    And this is not an academic problem. I know from personal experience that single precision is crap for physical process
    codes. If Russia wants an HPC processor, it needs to have 64 bit x 4-8 units for floating point. If the need is for some
    military specific format, then have a separate model for it. Trying to satisfy contradictory constraints is a losing proposition.

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