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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

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    etaepsilonk


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    Post  etaepsilonk Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:11 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Rubbish.  The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Kiev.

    Wrong. The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Moscow.

    Rolling Eyes
    Seriously, ask any Russian what happens after Putin... Savor the silence.
    Now most countries, nobody KNOWS who the next president will be, etc, but there will be the standard leading candidates, etc.
    Russia, it is a systemic/existential void awaiting, to the extent that everything besides Yeltsin-style degeneracy is invested in Putin.
    Medvedev's legacy seems to have no weight, being an extension of Putin reign, basically the exception that prooves the rule.
    Although this subject may best belong in Russian Technology Development thread, i.e How To Clone Putin... :-)


    LOL. Everyone knows what happens. Here, I'll give ya a tip Wink
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 Jpg649265343


    anti-fascism and not seeking to break productive positive relations with neighbors is a start, along with getting rid of oligarchs (for real).
    also, not going along with historical revisionism and social engineering

    If they want all that, then why are they heading to russia? Laughing
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    Post  mutantsushi Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:41 pm

    kvs wrote:Rubbish.   The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Kiev.   Instead of fixating
    on the Donbas, perhaps reserving some attention to the Rwanda style talk and action (e.g. Odessa) from the "real" Ukrainains
    might make the situation clearer.
    this.  exactly what the rump-PartyofRegions deputies in Rada speak of, when they are not being silenced and expelled by junta factions... if one wants a "united independent soviet ukraine", one cannot impose social engineering policies designed to favor one part of society, or one historic-political ideology over others.  what the novorussia movement wants for novorussia is largely what did exist in past ukraine (independent or USSR) and what is being taken away by the illegal nationalist inspired coup.  the resistance to the junta indeed did not start out with open "separatist" calls, yet were still opposed with military repression (as yanu never did) when they undertook actions (seizing buildings etc) equivalent to "maidan".  in ukraine as a whole, EU and NATO have never shown mass popular support, maidan aside, so imposing that political tendency is again an imposition on natural tendency of ukrainians, focusing on "ethnicity" is a distraction IMHO. while ethnicity plays a part, modern soviet created ukraine borders encompass two historic narratives, one kievan ukraine which was absorbed for some time into russian/soviet sphere, AND novorussia which was never part of non-russian kievan experience and which was settled (following conquest of ottoman/crimean territory) by various peoples, ethnic russian, ukrainian, jewish, serbian, etc, under aegis of russian imperial sovereignty.

    I still see people peddling the notion of sovereignty and territorial integrity.    Those are quaint notions that have nothing to
    do with international law.   International law puts the rights to self-determination above the territorial integrity of countries.
    This is what the International Court of Justice at the Hague has ruled.   If anyone is going to chatter about international law,
    then they cannot ignore the precedent set by the Kosovo secession.
    indeed, russia is hardly accused of "direct" crimes, murder, etc, but rather "abstract" violations of what amount to legalisms... yet similar scrutiny is not paid to legalisms violated by junta (nor the consequences of that on russia's own actions, e.g with legit ukrainian state institutions, president, constitutional court, constitution itself, all illegally deposed by junta).  get real.  to note, russia did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for a week following coup, they merely complained about violation of legalisms by coup (along with real physical violence), and those complaints were UTTERLY IGNORED by west, which poses as defender of abstract legalisms.  

    It is rather clear that there is sharp ethnic distinction between the Donbas and western Ukraine, so one can't hide behind the
    "they are all Ukrainians" fig leaf.
    indeed, and ethnicity apart, that novorussia was never part of kiev state, that it was only annexed to kiev administration under USSR, and thus certainly has standing to secede/ apply self determination as a singular separate nation (remnant of russian empire/USSR distinct from kiev ukraine and modern russia).  self determination is a principle of intl law, so if it means anything at all, then it MUST be able to over-ride "territorial integrity", otherwise there is no point because otherwise there is no need for it if the "larger state" must accede.  in this case, even some standard deference to territorial integrity/central government of larger state doesn't apply, because the legit government has been overthrown, the legit state bodies e.g. constitution and constitutional court that rule on such issues have been illegally eviscerated, so there doesn't remain a legit central government of ukraine to assert itself... a "revolutionary" situation has been opened, and ALL people in ukraine have equal right to take it in the direction they prefer.  it is sad that the "ethnic ukrainian nationalists" cannot even recognize their real historic heritage, instead needing to steal the heritage of russia/novorussia along the premise of "ukraine is where ethnic ukrainians live" (somehow not applying to siberia, canada, etc).
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

    Post  Vann7 Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:31 pm

    Because of the state of war happening in eastern ukraine , and the Lawless Tyranny in Kiev , if kiev is .... and novo are .... then they will be domed. in other wordds novorossiya cannot be
    a full fledge Freedom society with freedom of expression and freedom of movement when there is a war zone happening. . The political correctness is a tool of the devil in a war.

    Imagine if Russia intelligence services discover Banderas is about to get a nuclear weapon to fire it against Russia..
    and they have a unique opportunity to save their nation by doing a preventive strike. Should Russia just be politically correct and go to United Nations and get an international backup to defend their nation? of course not.


    Novorosiya cannot allow banderas in their zones for obvious reasons, yes is not democratic but will save their lives.
    NOvorosiyan citizens are very vulnerable because of the war.. no jobs ,no salary and no food.. in such scenarios they can be very vulnerable to betray their own families just for a piece of bread.  So you cannot judge a newly created nation ,when is being bombed every day and their civilians being killed everyday. What is important now is not Political correctness. but to save people lives and keep the integrity of their new country. and keep the Banderas away of novorosiya. WHen finally the war is over then novorosiya can allow more liberties and freedoms.  Laws need to be adjusted to the climate of the moment.. Laws that works in peace time is not necessary what works in war time. This however could sound as justifying Kiev actions too.. but not really.. Any limitation imposed on civilians is justified only to defend their lives.. not to maintain a Tyranny in power like kiev is.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

    Post  kvs Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:39 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Rubbish.  The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Kiev.

    Wrong. The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Moscow.


    Oh look another cartoon idiot drone.

    How many Odessa massacres has Novorossiya staged? Do Novorossiyan students get taught to put Ukrs to the knife and
    to hang them from the nearest tree. This is exactly what the ethno-fascists in the west of Ukraine are doing.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/05/06/genocide-in-novorossiya-and-swan-song-of-ukrainian-statehood/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyXToXTNDpc

    Any sane person who is obviously the target for this ethnic hate would not want to live under the Kiev regime and its supporters.

    You are clearly a liar and your attempt to deny the Novorossiyans their rights based on cartoons and your tin foil hat beliefs
    is pathetic.
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:04 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Rubbish.  The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Kiev.

    Wrong. The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Moscow.

    The idea of Novorossiya was created by the Imperial court in Petrograd in the 18th century, after they defeated the Ottoman Turks and gained the coastal land at the Black Sea, and then sent people to this land to make new settlements.

    If you are unhappy about the idea of Novorossiya, tell that to Yekaterina II the Great and Grigoriy Potyomkin.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:22 am

    kvs wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Idea of Novorossiya is still hollow at the moment. There is no political core. Is it Monarchy or Socialism like some rebels try to portray it Very Happy ?  

    Putinism Wink

    Rubbish.   The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Kiev.   Instead of fixating
    on the Donbas, perhaps reserving some attention to the Rwanda style talk and action (e.g. Odessa) from the "real" Ukrainains
    might make the situation clearer.

    I still see people peddling the notion of sovereignty and territorial integrity.    Those are quaint notions that have nothing to
    do with international law.   International law puts the rights to self-determination above the territorial integrity of countries.
    This is what the International Court of Justice at the Hague has ruled.   If anyone is going to chatter about international law,
    then they cannot ignore the precedent set by the Kosovo secession.

    It is rather clear that there is sharp ethnic distinction between the Donbas and western Ukraine, so one can't hide behind the
    "they are all Ukrainians" fig leaf.

    X2
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    Post  etaepsilonk Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:43 am

    Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime? Good, I'm glad we got that straight Wink
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    Post  gregoire Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:52 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime? Good, I'm glad we got that straight Wink

    If russia is fascist then what is kiev to you?
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:10 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime? Good, I'm glad we got that straight Wink

    Novorossiya was created when the 18th century Imperial court in Petrograd attacked Ottoman Turks and absorbed the territories of Krym and the Black Sea's coastal lands.

    If that regime is called facist then almost every kind of countries in the late 18th century were facist, too.

    And if there is anyone who is pissing and unhappy, it is Istanbul, not Kyiv.

    Thanks to whatsoever regime in Russia, Ukraina can have the lands which it is possessing today.

    In short, if you are unhappy about the idea of Novorossiya, sent an email to Yekaterina II and Grigori Potyomkin. You may ask them whether they think themselves are facists or not.

    gregoire wrote:If russia is fascist then what is kiev to you?

    When we bring money to Washington DC, we are freedom fighter or democracy activitist.

    When we struggle against the West's hegemony, we are dictactor, evil, Satan, or what ever.
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    Post  Asf Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:03 am

    Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime?

    Yep, so called Ukraine was a russian facist monarchic bear-riding vodka-drinking bolshevik's invention, and now they intervent it for lulz, just because NATO was in the dire need of conventional enemy. Lucky coincidence! The enemy of all the Free World have shown his face! The West never did such things as supporting opposition, feeding partisan forces, supplying them with money, arms and political support... wait, what??? Didn't they make it in Afghanistan, Lybia, Caucasus, South America, Syria and on Ukraine's Maidan???
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    Post  arpakola Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:54 am

    Doniestsk airport .. Ukes are in the bunkers now.. 200 of them died during the operations






    a general comment regarding some posts above..
    guys .. if you dont have news to post , fotos , vids, etc..
    or you dont have something realy smart to comment .. dont waste badwidth..
    please...

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 7c89a9b1fb73a6cedb992eb3

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    Post  arpakola Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:40 am

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 17724_original
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    Post  etaepsilonk Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:43 am

    gregoire wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime? Good, I'm glad we got that straight Wink

    If russia is fascist then what is kiev to you?

    And what's with Kiev?

    Ukraine is a normal, democratic, european country.
    In fact, putler is jealous of ukraine's culture, economy and it's superbly humanitarian heroes, like stepan bandera, and is, therefore, trying to destroy Ukraine's success story as much as possible, so that russian people themselves wouldn't have an example to follow and wouldn't be threatening putler's despotic kgb junta's reign.
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    Post  Asf Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:14 am

    Ukraine is a normal, democratic, european country.

     superbly humanitarian heroes like bandera

    Bad trolling, mon ami

    ukraine's culture

    What was that word... vishivatnik? Is that the thing Putin wants the most?
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:24 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    gregoire wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime? Good, I'm glad we got that straight Wink

    If russia is fascist then what is kiev to you?

    And what's with Kiev?

    Ukraine is a normal, democratic, european country.
    In fact, putler is jealous of ukraine's culture, economy and it's superbly humanitarian heroes, like stepan bandera, and is, therefore, trying to destroy Ukraine's success story as much as possible, so that russian people themselves wouldn't have an example to follow and wouldn't be threatening putler's despotic kgb junta's reign.


    Hahahahahaha. I never read anything more helarious in my life.

    Ukraine is a poor, lousy country that sold itself off to.the highest bidder. The country was made up by territory stripped from other regions and.given to Ukraine SSR. Crimea being one of them. Successful? In what? Selling off state assets so a few can become billionairs so they can run a chocolete shop?

    Dude, dont kid yourself. And this is coming from someone whos family is from Lviv...
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:26 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Ukraine is a normal, democratic, european country.
    In fact, putler is jealous of ukraine's culture, economy and it's superbly humanitarian heroes, like stepan bandera, and is, therefore, trying to destroy Ukraine's success story as much as possible

    What the f*ck is going on here ? Shocked

    Are you really serious about that comment ? Shocked

    Please tell me that was just a joke. Please. bounce  bounce

    etaepsilonk wrote:In fact, putler is jealous of ukraine's culture, economy

    What the f*ck is so good about Ukrainian economy so that Putin has to be jealous ? A f*cking corrupted goverment, a stagnated economy, an empty national treasure with cannot feed its army properly ?

    Ukrainian culture is great, I know, but why Putin has to be jealous when Russian culture is equally great, too ?

    etaepsilonk wrote:it's superbly humanitarian heroes, like stepan bandera,

    What ????

    There are many people in Ukraina who are deserved to be heroes. Why the f*ck you have to choose that bandit, considering that even the European Parliament does not see him as a hero ?

    etaepsilonk wrote:Ukraine's success story

    Success story ?

    Which story ?

    The story of having a chaotic and failed "orange revolution", of having winters with no oil and gas, and the story of losing Krym and Donbass ?

    etaepsilonk wrote:Ukraine is a normal, democratic, european country.

    For several reason I just want to vomit. pale

    If Ukrainian was a model of european democracy, then the whole EU should be a failure.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:34 am

    Ukraine is the onl post soviet country that had a continuous decline of gdp per capita. After Crimea joined back to Russia, wages doubled. And that is the beginning.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:46 am

    Oh look, the peaceful, democratic Ukraine...
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/752909
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    Post  etaepsilonk Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:46 am

    Man, all those pro-kremlin provocateurs, coming out of their hiding holes Rolling Eyes

    Little it surprises me though, with oil price declining so sharply, they must be desperate.
    Then it hits below 50 dollars, you can expect some "people's republics" to pop-up Laughing

    It will also be a perfect opportunity to take back ukrainian lands from the bear's claws.
    That's valid not only for recently occupied lands, but other territories as well, which the most merciful tsar "forgot" to return, like rostov, smolensk, tver Wink


    Oh look, the peaceful, democratic Ukraine...
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/752909

    Oh please, shy away your kremlin propaganda.


    The most peaceful army in the world (ukrainian army) would never dare to descend to such putin-level-lowness.
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:57 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:Man, all those pro-kremlin provocateurs, coming out of their hiding holes Rolling Eyes

    So ? Cool

    It is a clear as day we are pro-Moskva from the very beginning. You can only see that until now ?

    Got a problem with that ? Cool You have the right to be pro-West we also have the very right to be pro-Moskva. Cool

    etaepsilonk wrote:Little it surprises me though, with oil price declining so sharply, they must be desperate.
    Then it hits below 50 dollars, you can expect some "people's republics" to pop-up Laughing

    Oh really ? Cool

    I thought it was because the ignorant clowns in Kyiv stupidly fall under the hand of facist scums and passed some stupid xenophobic laws, then people had no choice and had to protect themselves.

    etaepsilonk wrote:It will also be a perfect opportunity to take back ukrainian lands from the bear's claws.
    That's valid not only for recently occupied lands, but other territories as well, which the most merciful tsar "forgot" to return, like rostov, smolensk, tver Wink

    Are you daydreaming ?

    By which means will you "take back" Donbass, Krym, Rostov, Tver, Smolensk ? By a degenerated army with old weapons in poor conditions and an empty national treasure ?

    And by which standard do you want to reclaim lands like Rostov, Tver, Smolensk ? Since when they were your land ?

    etaepsilonk wrote:The most peaceful army in the world (ukrainian army) would never dare to descend to such putin-level-lowness.

    AGAIN, I WANT TO VOMIT. angry

    Care to explain the war crimes caused by the facist "volunteer battalions" and the Odessa massacre caused by the Kyiv facists ? Neutral

    ----

    And by the way I suggest this is your "success story", right ? It has been over 2 decades but Ukraina has not crawling back to the pre-1991 level yet. Oh I am sooooooooooo jealous. cry

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 Ukraine-gdp-per-capita-ppp

    I respect the will of national identity and independence of Ukrainian people, but could you please be realistic ?


    Last edited by higurashihougi on Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:02 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:Man, all those pro-kremlin provocateurs, coming out of their hiding holes Rolling Eyes

    Little it surprises me though, with oil price declining so sharply, they must be desperate.
    Then it hits below 50 dollars, you can expect some "people's republics" to pop-up Laughing

    It will also be a perfect opportunity to take back ukrainian lands from the bear's claws.
    That's valid not only for recently occupied lands, but other territories as well, which the most merciful tsar "forgot" to return, like rostov, smolensk, tver Wink


    Oh look, the peaceful, democratic Ukraine...
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/752909

    Oh please, shy away your kremlin propaganda.


    The most peaceful army in the world (ukrainian army) would never dare to descend to such putin-level-lowness.

    And the nation didnt faulter in the 90's. Nowbudget of Russia is quadruple that.

    And yes, Ukraine gov.hasvdonethis multiple of times.

    Man you are far from reality. Kremlin bots? No, were just not stupid and ignorant like you are.

    Btw, have fun explaining why the mass graves found is democratic.
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:18 am

    Question:

    If Ukraine, with a significantly far weaker economy than Russia, cannot hold on its own, jow do you expect them to take and hold any region, if they cant fund themselves? Add to that, how do you expect them to fight another standing army, with far more modern equipment, if they cannot even deal with armed insurgents? I meam, Ukraine lost a lot to the donesk people. Russia got in there and didnt fire a single shot and no one died besides in a brawl and thay wasnt Russian troops. Soldiers in Ukraine gave up and many defected, which Ukraine gov admitted.

    If you want to see glorious Ukraine, I suggest you look at its population from 20 years ago till now. Seems Ukrainians dont like Ukraine.
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    Post  Regular Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:21 am

    Gents get your sarcasm meters checked.
    I wouldn't go that far and call Russia fascist state. Fascism is such broad ideology, but after ww2 it carries very negative canotations. I would call it rusdian nationalism.
    Still Russia is far from countries like Israel when it comes to fascism. Don't mix fascism with nazism. Calling Ukraine fascist is insult to fascists. Their ideology is simplified ethnocentrism
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    Post  Asf Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:23 am

    Success story ?

    Which story ?

    Man, they dug the Black sea!


    Last edited by Asf on Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

    Post  arpakola Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:28 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    gregoire wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Ah, so we do agree that the so called "novorussia" is the invention of russian fascist regime? Good, I'm glad we got that straight Wink

    If russia is fascist then what is kiev to you?

    And what's with Kiev?

    Ukraine is a normal, democratic, european country.
    In fact, putler is jealous of ukraine's culture, economy jocolor geek lol1 and it's superbly humanitarian heroes, like stepan bandera, and is, therefore, trying to destroy Ukraine's success story as much as possible, so that russian people themselves wouldn't have an example to follow and wouldn't be threatening putler's despotic kgb junta's reign.

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 12 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

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