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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:39 pm

    Donetsk airport under full control of self-defense forces
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/752585
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:23 pm

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-investigates-ukrainian-top-brass-over-genocide/508340.html

    Russia Investigates Ukrainian Top Brass Over 'Genocide'

    For me, I really wish that the criminals in Odessa mass burning should be sent to Moskva's execution square, immediately. attack  attack  attack  attack

    Or may be it should be nice for a "parade" of facist criminals, just like Moskva did on 16th July 1944.

    Russia's Investigative Committee has set its sights on various high-ranking Ukrainian officials in a "genocide" case launched earlier this week over the conflict in Ukraine's turbulent east.

    Ukrainian Defense Minister Valeriy Heletey, General Staff chief Viktor Muzhenko, brigade commander Oleg Mikas and "other unidentified persons" are among the suspects in the case, the Investigative Committee said Thursday.

    Russian investigators say these men are to blame for 3,000 civilians killed, 5,000 injured and 300,000 displaced in the fighting in eastern Ukraine between July and September.

    "Heletey, Muzhenko, Mikas and commanders of the 93rd Brigade willfully, in violation of the 1948 international Genocide Convention … issued orders aimed at the total destruction of a national group of Russian-speaking persons residing in the territories of Luhansk and Donetsk," the statement read.

    The United Nations convention referenced in the statement defines genocide as killing, harming, imposing poor living conditions on, sterilizing, or expelling the children of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group with the intention of eliminating the group, either entirely or partially.  

    Russian legislation does not provide a platform for charging foreigners over crimes against other foreigners committed outside Russia. But Russia can present its findings to the International Criminal Court in the Hague, which in turn could launch its own investigation and ultimately prosecute.

    Though the Ukrainian officials are only listed as suspects, their involvement in the deaths of civilians is "completely obvious," said the Investigative Committee, a powerful security service directly subordinate to the Russian president.

    The committee — which handles most high-profile political cases in Russia — launched the case on Monday, but did not name any suspects at the time.

    In a separate case, it accused Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and pro-Kiev tycoon Ihor Kolomoyskyi of war crimes in July.

    Ukraine retaliated by launching a case against Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.


    Until a fragile cease-fire was established on Sept. 5, a five-month pro-Russian insurgency raged in eastern Ukraine, a predominantly Russian-speaking territory with a population of 6.5 million.

    Ukraine accused Russia of backing the rebels with troops and equipment. Moscow confirmed that Russian soldiers were fighting with the insurgents, but said they were "volunteers."

    In late September, the UN pegged the total death toll in the conflict at 3,500, including civilians and combatants.
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    Post  medo Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:38 pm

    arpakola wrote:Donetsk airport under full control of self-defense forces
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/752585

    I hope Novorussian army will be smart enough not to fight inside underground chambers. that would be madness. They have to fill entrances with fuel and burn them. Smoke will do the job. They will either come out or die inside.
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    Post  Regular Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:21 pm

    Both sides lost fuckloads of people. Meat grinder. I hope it was worth it.
    Ukraine betrayed their soldiers once again.
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    Post  Regular Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:25 pm

    arpakola wrote:Fight for terminal airport in Donetsk




    Very interesting video. Yalta said that Ukrainians let seps in and then ambush and they always did the same thing. (He got his arm torn off. Looked like a good platoon leader. RIP)
    At 26:09 small guy says that Novorosian artillery, tanks and aviation will be working on the target. WTF, aviation???
    By the way I see girls in the video. I'm very sceptical about women as soldiers.
    27:20 seps talk about tank again. They really needed some ATGM as this tank was only thing that helped ukrs for so long.
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    Post  mack8 Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:47 pm

    Ok, just found this, i'm seeing that ukrainian military and state symbols are very similar to WW2 nazi symbols, if one replace the ukrainian crest with the swastika, they would be practically IDENTICAL. I was taken aback because i didn't remember seeing those before, presumably they have been changed after the coup. Can knowledgeable folks confirm, i can't seem to find good images from similar parades showing ukrainian military markings before say 2012.

    Shouldn't really be surprised though, think it's pretty clear Ukraine has become a fascist national-socialist state, thanks to the great US reich. A fate as that of the nazi reich would be too kind to these grotesque abominable filth. F*** the US. angry  

    http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/932321.html
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    Post  Regular Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:23 am

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #9 - Page 11 Bzcjul10
    Not photoshop Rolling Eyes
    NationalRus
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    Post  NationalRus Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:07 am

    http://lifenews.ru/news/141995


    airport is 99.9% taken, some fighters still hide in ther last point, said they are right sector, the airport is getting now heavy shelled from ukr army which are stationed at avdiivka 5km north
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    Post  NationalRus Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:02 am

    the battle for the airport might be won but overall the situation is not that good, just readed the new report from colonel-cassad who got new direct information, to put 2 thousend words of text in 3 sentences:

    ther is nothing close to a unified comand, what i sayd about a warlord like situation turn out to be 100% true.
    ther are by now more volunters then equipment (the army hit its limmits, officialy now)
    the army is like ukr army also only ready for winter to ~50% not mch more and a lot of the heavy equipment can't be repaired, ther just no facilities for it, so only a part of the heavy equipment is "battle-ready" and for repairs cannibalization of equipment started
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    Post  syxthtysyxthsyx Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:30 pm

    The Caspian Sea was recently closed to NATO; perhaps advanced staging in relation to Turkey for Ukraine/Syria?

    proponents of turkey's membership argue that it is a key regional power[10] with a large economy and the second largest military force of nato[11][12] that will enhance the eu's position as a global geostrategic player; given turkey's geographic location and economic, political, cultural and historic ties in regions with large natural resources that are at the immediate vicinity of the eu's geopolitical sphere of influence; such as the east mediterranean and black sea coasts, the middle east, the caspian sea basin and central asia.[13][14] according to carl bildt, swedish foreign minister, "[the accession of turkey] would give the eu a decisive role for stability in the eastern part of the mediterranean and the black sea, which is clearly in the strategic interest of europe."[15] one of turkey's key supporters for its bid to join the eu is the united kingdom.

    "key security issues in the caspian region",[3] nato security through science series

    ...or maybe:  us and kazachstan establish caspian guard initiative

    ...wasn't there a recent reference to the Wolfowitz Doctrine here, somewhere...  ?  I looked, but could not find it.  Maybe it was down some rabbit hole?!  (for reference:  Wolfowitz Doctrine)
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:39 pm

    I saw some footage of the rebels attacking that airport... if Russia is supplying them they are doing it on the cheap... one guy was using a PTRD-41. Still looks impressive...
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    Post  NationalRus Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:48 am

    NationalRus wrote:the battle for the airport might be won but overall the situation is not that good, just readed the new report from colonel-cassad who got new direct information, to put 2 thousend words of text in 3 sentences:

    ther is nothing close to a unified comand, what i sayd about a warlord like situation turn out to be 100% true.
    ther are by now more volunters then equipment (the army hit its limmits, officialy now)
    the army is like ukr army also only ready for winter to ~50% not mch more and a lot of the heavy equipment can't be repaired, ther just no facilities for it, so only a part of the heavy equipment is "battle-ready" and for repairs cannibalization of equipment started

    also from the same report, the supply situation worsened significantly, nothings comes in from russia bysied the light stuff volunteers gather, he suspects to put pressure on patriots who dont bend to moscows game they block them and dry them out, thats why so many heavy equipment is not combat ready and is cannibalized
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:05 am

    On 16th of August Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    fragmachine wrote:Our "media" are constantly babbling about Russian army crossing border with Ukraine, Pornoshenko talking about half of Russian armored vehicles destroyed. It raised few questions from my point of view.

    1. What's going on with the other "half" of armored vehicles?

    2. Why there are not even a single photo confirming incident? It's classified?  Laughing

    3. Do You think that Russian MoD would be so stupid to send some dozen vehicles against UA army, rather than send 2 300 tanks?

    Overall, I think it is a bullshit news. And I just watched it for like half a minute, guess what shit they are bringing for brainwashed crowds doing nothing but watching TV for whole day...

    With respect to prolefeed of the sort you are referring to, usually two options should be evaluated.

    1- Is the ministry of peace chasing a phantom, and the ministry of truth creating the "newsflash" about it?

    or

    2- Is it only the ministry of truth that is writing up the "newsflash", and there is even no phantom?

    After you guys forced me to click on a ministry of truth link about this "newsflash", and having checked the style of the write-up, it seems to me it is of the second type.

    Actually now I think it is of a third type; that is the ministry of peace suffering a defeat, and the ministry of truth creating a "newsflash" claiming a fake victory for the ministry of peace.

    Here is the sitrep:

    The fascist forces that had burst out of the Lugansk airport pocket, and had made it to Novosvetlovka to provide an impediment to the Russian humanitarian convoy on M04, are currently being routed by the Novorussians, and the fascists have already lost half their armor. Q.E.D.

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/745491
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:35 am

    NationalRus wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:the battle for the airport might be won but overall the situation is not that good, just readed the new report from colonel-cassad who got new direct information, to put 2 thousend words of text in 3 sentences:

    ther is nothing close to a unified comand, what i sayd about a warlord like situation turn out to be 100% true.
    ther are by now more volunters then equipment (the army hit its limmits, officialy now)
    the army is like ukr army also only ready for winter to ~50% not mch more and a lot of the heavy equipment can't be repaired, ther just no facilities for it, so only a part of the heavy equipment is "battle-ready" and for repairs cannibalization of equipment started

    also from the same report, the supply situation worsened significantly, nothings comes in from russia bysied the light stuff volunteers gather, he suspects to put pressure on patriots who dont bend to moscows game they block them and dry them out, thats why so many heavy equipment is not combat ready and is cannibalized

    Initially, the Russians helped the Novorussians a tiny bit for the Novorussians to annihilate the fascist Ukrainian armed forces and the foreign mercenary cannon fodders.

    As I have explained on a number of occasions, the Russian help was the most minuscule help they have ever given anyone, of course, much less than the help the Russians regularly give US, Ukraine, England, Israel, Germany, ...

    Once the fascist Ukrainian armed forces and the foreign mercenaries were annihilated, the Russians started helping the Ukrainian regime and stopped helping the Novorussian, so that a certain status quo is maintained (for the time being, of course). The recent peace warfare that the Russians unleashed on the Novorussians was only a part of the help that the Russians have been providing the fascist regime.

    While all of this was obvious from the beginning, it has been becoming more than obvious due to all the events that have happened since the beginning of the September.
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    Post  Regular Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:11 am

    It only means that Russia just want to restore balance between good and evil Laughing
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    Post  NationalRus Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:27 am

    Regular wrote:It only means that Russia just want to restore balance between good and evil Laughing

    it only mean the fifth column is out ther in full force, this is pure sabotage at its finest
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:56 am

    The solution to this problem is not going to be military... if it is, then after everything blows over and in 5 years time when the EU has spend 100 Billion fixing the Ukraine and the US has spent twice that rearming them they will have a go at taking what was theirs by right but taken away by military force.

    It makes rather more sense to sit down and talk about it now and make some sensible decisions and agreements that both sides can live with.

    Remember this is not Russia vs Ukraine... it is Ukrainians vs Ukrainians.
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    Post  mutantsushi Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:29 am

    How is it (Novorussia) their's (Kiev's) "by right"?
    It was never any sort of Ukrainian state/community, it was Ottoman/Crimean territory before being conquered by Russia.
    Basically all the cities were founded with Russian names by Russians for Russians, nationalist attempts to "Ukrainicize" them aside.
    All of "Ukraine" was part of USSR(/RussianEmpire), which was illegally broken up, in opposition to popular vote in Ukraine itself.
    Clearly revolutions do happen, legal or not, but Novorussia was never legally tied to Kiev except under Soviet rule,
    so if one overthrows that set of laws, then everything is game.  Same for when "Independent Ukraine"'s laws are broken by a coup,
    people in Novorussia have just as much a right to determine which way to go following that legal breach.
    Why does people/ government of Russia not have right to rectify the evil illegal Ukranian secession of their land "by right"?

    How do you distinguish Donbass/Novorussia from Crimea, where "the military solution" (to protect Crimeans vs. Ukraine junta) did work?  
    President Yanukovych's request to Russia to protect Ukrainian citizens from the forces of Kiev junta applies equally to all Ukrainian territory.
    Both in Crimea and Donbass, it was the people who organized their own referendums, which were threatened by the illegal Kiev junta.
    Why is Russian "military solution" (which may merely be protective) "bad", but Kiev junta "military solution" to repress democracy is good?

    The #1 reason I think why there is not stronger uprisings seen in Odessa, Kharkiv, etc, is that when Donbass rose up and voted to secede,
    Russia did not fulfill the understood promise to protect them (at that point Crimea was the precedent, yet was not repeated by Russia),
    and normal people are not going to organize and suffer personal danger in order to invite a hot civil war into their cities and lives.
    Had Russia done otherwise, even merely to the extent of enforcing NFZ and striking artillery and heavy weapon concentrations of Junta forces,
    then that would have established a very different dynamic to events, without requiring Russia to fight Kiev junta forces directly...
    That would have empowered Donbass forces to stand their own + advance to link up with rest of Novorussia, + protected civilians and infrastructure.

    I understand the impetus to retain relations with EU, etc, but how does a broader defense of all of Novorussia fundamentally change anything?
    I hardly see how sanctions would have been worse had Russia done that, since it would hardly be different than what Russia was "accused" of doing...
    Russia provided material force to protect Crimean secession, and is backing that up to the hilt, what changes if the same was done in all of NR?
    Again, Russia would not need to involve itself directly, it could impose a protective regime, enforce NFZ and destroy artillery, etc,
    which is easily reasonable under the premise of President Yanukovych's request, and actual fact of illegality of usage of Ukraine Army vs. own citizens.
    (non-involvement of army is applauded during Kiev Coup, yet army repression of democratic dissent is so legit that Russia can't interfere re: NR?)

    And more broadly, if US/EU do not pursue military solution now, why will they in 5-10 years etc?
    What will make Russia with Novorussia, as ally or part of RF, so much weaker in 5-10 years? (or whenever)
    The demographic reversal seen in Russia should plausibly be transferrable to NR (as part of RF), but Kiev's decline doesn't have signs of reversal.
    If anything, regardless of US/EU backing, Ukraine will only get weaker relative to Russia in coming years,and likewise with US/EU themselves.
    Where exactly are these hundreds of billions in EU/US funding to boost Ukraine, upon which your premise depends, coming from anyways?
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:40 am

    yes and no.. the main problem Ukraine have.. are the passiveness of its society and that still today many majority support the unification with the European Union. When there was Euromaidan thugs in kiev about 3,000 destroying the capital..trying to overthrow the government what was the rest of the nation doing? Yakunovych won the elections and do got the numbers ,to become a mayority .. but the pro Yakunovych people did Nothing.. Just business as usual. in one of the many reports about Ukraine ,when euromaidans were burning kiev.. one Yakunovych supporter was asked by Russia media if he was going to support his President.. his answer? " ME????
    Oh nooo.. i have better things to do than to go to a protest.. i need to work."  see?   This is no different than the miners in eastern ukraine ..they are more than 50,000...  When the Ukies were bombing donetsk and lugansk in Slavyansk.. what was the miners doing? NOTHING... "they had better things to do" than to save civilians lives.. they
    preferred the misery salary they were earning for mining coal ,that was not enough for his family.. than to take a gun and fight nazis.. In Odessa .. only grandmas about 40 were holding a lonely building.. where was the rest of the society in mariupol doing? Nothing..  Is so amazing the carelessness of the society that while the ukies were very close to cut Donetsk from Lugansk and truly end the future of the revolution.. there was still Parasites Miners working.. "doing better things" than to defend their future..  The irony was that their work was stopped when Ukrainian shells began to bomb their mines and many of the were wounded and trapped inside.. Most miners from the many thousands they have working there. Just free to Russia as refugees. when no longer they could continue.
    mining.  Thats the major problem in Ukraine.. its society is a parasite ,and have been used to welfare and and being given a job outside that they never though it was important to fight for their nation future.  Had most of the Ukrainians who voted for Yakunovych being very active in the protest and taking cities ... it will have been not possible for kiev to easily take Kharkiv ,Osessa and Mariupol and the rebels will have been today in a much better position.  But so far when the Rebels were fighting in Slavyansk.. they only had like 12,000 fighters at best.. from a region of Donetsk+Lugansk with 5 millions of people. No The Yakunovych supporters have been parasites ,that most of them not even show in any protest.. when it was totally peaceful and just left the revolution to others..

    So thats the mayor problems Ukrainians have.. their lack of participation and activism.. from Odessa to Kharkiv. The very few participation of society.. did not convinced the ukrainian army its majority to switch sides and fight the government. And the other major problem is the blindness of believing that joining the European Union was going to fix their problems. Is only when Ukrainians not longer have welfare ,lose their miserable jobs ,with miserable salaries and no longer have an income and no longer they see any remote hope for their nation to slightly get better.. only then is when they will start to do activism.. There still today many organized supporters
    Pro European Union.. in mariupol ,kharkiv and Odessa.. and they are the only ones that organize and protest .



    Look at those smiling Morons.. while their government is bombing civilians women and children in the east. or
    torturing womens that support Novorrosiya and throwing them in lakes after killed.
    And you know why they continue supporting their government? Because they still receive their miserable salaries
    and pensions and they believe somehow that their government under the EU will do far better than with RUssia..
    So the European Union is greatly responsible for misleading the Ukrainian society ,giving false hopes ,offering castles and streets in golds..when none of that will happen.. The most reponsible thing the EU could have done
    is Reject Ukraine into any kind of association because it will be economical suicide for Ukraine, joining the European Union ,since they are not prepared for that. THey cannot compete with the superior prices and quality of European business.. and europe needs nothing from them.So dropping all their business with Russia is suicide. Is like giving a Gun to a child crying because want to have one. Europe is greatly to blame for the conflict in Ukraine ,because they essentially split Ukrainian society into joing the EU or Joining Russia. So the changes to fix Ukraine can only come when Ukrainians open their eyes.. and no longer wants to be part of EU and totally Reject their criminal government. The real revolution will start once Ukraine economy collapse and everyone money on banks is not more worthy of toilet paper .  Supplying Rebels with more weapons is not the way to go.. they will end with too much civilians support of kiev..and too many casualties.. the rebels simply needs to hold their zones and Russia accelerate the collapse of Ukie economy. By not doing any business with them and not giving free gas..  Russia cannot liberate Ukraine from its failed future.. that have to be done by Ukrainian themselves.. the Welfare and conformism have been very destructive for Ukraine society and the solution is for them to not longer be taken by the hand and financed and funded. The entire economy needs to collapse for Ukrainians open their eyes and they to no longer be interested in supporting their government and giving a try to elect a President that no longer seeks to be part of the European union.. and try something totally different to isolate all their business from RUssia as kiev is doing. Ukrainians are victims of their Ignorance..
    They need to see the light.. When no longer schools can open for lack of money.. when no longer police is paid ,when no longer electricity and water is paid and most basic services in society cannot operate and people only depend of humanitarian international help.. thats only when.. the loyalty to Kiev will end.  Russia have a Big Chance to take all Ukraine not just the east if the Ukrainians notice life conditions being far better fin Crimea with major modernization and progress happening and Russia economy strong.. and Ukrainians going from bad to worse.. then only then is when change will happen.. Patriotism in Ukraine needs to end... the flag no longer represent a nation ,but only Nazis factions.. that are using their army to bomb civilians women and children.. Ukraine needs to totally die as a country for its citizens to wake up and fully understand that their only hope is Russia..  Ukraine is a perfect example when Patriotism and Unity is very destructive for its society.. The Nazi Germany was also very patriotic , but their flag was no longer supported when no longer germans saw any hope
    for their nation.. Unity and Patriotism is only good when your government cares about its people. When they murder thousands of civilians and bomb women and children no longer they represent that society.  Russia is not abandoning Ukraine.. they fully understand that if they invade they will lose forever all Ukraine but the east.. Because kiev will use its media to direct the hate of the society against Russia..and to blame their nation economy problems to Russia. false flags will happen day and night thousands of civilians will end killed and all will be blamed on Russia invasion.. So is a complex situation were Russia cannot invade but neither can allow eastern ukraine to be wiped. The only solution is for Russia to wait for Ukrainians to wake up..and start a revolution by themselves .
    One that Kiev will not be able to hold or control.. if happen in the entire nation. A revolution against Kiev and against the Right Sector too.. Once majority of Ukrainians rebel against Kiev and against the Ultra nationals banderas is when they will take control back of their nation from its self destruction.. and have hopes for a better future.
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    Post  Regular Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:29 am

    Good points. They are jumping from one extremity to another. From separatism to ultra patriotism. It was shocking to see people in Slvensk cheering for Ukrainian army takeover. Are they serious? They were shelled to dust there.

    But I think idea of separatism wasn't matured before everything went ballistic. It takes years of hardship to shake society. Like maidan was brewing for almost 4 years even with external support.
    Separatism as now has nothing to offer just suffering and death. Not the future. Hell even future for Ukraine is grim.
    It did terrible mistake of vilifying ukrainians as a nation, or a country. Separatism should be political not ethnical. Calling Ukrainians names, puttin Russia and Russians above in rhetorics is as bad as Ukrainians do, it only unifies them.

    Idea of Novorossiya is still hollow at the moment. There is no political core. Is it Monarchy or Socialism like some rebels try to portray it Very Happy ?  
    You have to understand that common man doesn't give a fuck about rise of nazis all he cares to do is to put bread on the table.
    Go to Mariopol, Slaviansk forums and read what people say. It's not that they support Poroshenko, but living in the warzone is/was terrible.
    People who live in Novorossya get fuck all, no wages, normal life doesn't exist.
    But then again it could be everyday life in Kiev soon enough even if the war is over.
    So I don't think war is the only solution for Novorossiya. Another year of war and there will be nothing to fight for.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:05 am

    NationalRus wrote:
    Regular wrote:It only means that Russia just want to restore balance between good and evil Laughing

    it only mean the fifth column is out ther in full force, this is pure sabotage at its finest

    I don't think there is a fifth column. What is being called the fifth column is no more than an Emmanuel Goldstein.

    Without saying too much, let me give an analogy from the previous "world war":

    Russians could have helped the Spanish Republicans a tiny bit more for the Republicans to easily defeat the "Nationalists", but they didn't. (By "Nationalists", I am really referring to their "foreign handlers", as the Spanish "Nationalists" were nobodies.)

    The reason is obvious, because if they had given the Republicans that extra bit of help, the story of the previous "world war" would have been different from the despicable one that has been recounted ever since.

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    etaepsilonk


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    Post  etaepsilonk Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:56 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Idea of Novorossiya is still hollow at the moment. There is no political core. Is it Monarchy or Socialism like some rebels try to portray it Very Happy ?  

    Putinism Wink
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    mutantsushi


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    Post  mutantsushi Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:42 pm

    anti-fascism and not seeking to break productive positive relations with neighbors is a start, along with getting rid of oligarchs (for real).
    also, not going along with historical revisionism and social engineering in the name of galician-ukranian volkstadt,
    but rather the state serving the community of actual living breathing citizens and how they organically live.

    yanukovych's negotiations with EU made clear, that EAU/Russia offers by far greater economic prospects than EU, no argument,
    so one does not need to care about abstract ideas, that "choice" just makes sense on narrow self interest basis...
    it is the EU-allied UKR nationalists who ignore rational analysis in favor of abstract ideas.

    +it's not so much about "separatism" as not recognizing the illegal coup government, and their illegal courts, constitution, etc.
    if you really want to roll things back, that could be applied to illegal breakup of USSR, although both cases defacto equal separatism from junta POV.

    i think the idea of worrying about mass of ukrainian people being agitated against russia based on ukrainian nationalism is weak,
    actual hardcore nationalism has little popular backing, likewise culturally, because otherwise there would be no need to impose
    ukrainian language supremacy by law, historical revisionism, e.g. social engineering, if that was already the organic popular sentiment.
    this is why i disagree with perspectives against backing novorussia or even donbass separatism, to eventually "bring back" kiev ukraine to russia's fold,
    because i don't think doing that is necessary to eventually achieve that goal, a more concentrated ukrainian language state (west-central ukraine)
    is more than plausible if one considers ethno-linguistic basis for a state (rather than broad agglomeration created by soviets),
    and such a state still has brotherly/historic ties to russia, material interests providing basis for productive relationship, etc.
    "great ukraine" including novorussia, as created by soviets, just has the least historic foundation,
    while a concentrated ethnic ukrainian centric, west-central Kievan state has a much more coherent foundation,
    i don't find that a bad concept, even if it seems to cede power to nazis, nazis actually have little raison d'etre once such a state is created,
    e.g. nobody can seriously believe ukrainian language/culture is under threat from russian in such a state,
    and truly ukrainian language/culture can FREELY flourish in such a state WITHOUT unjustly denying other significant languages/cultures...
    while in a "great ukraine", russian language IS clearly a historic language deserving legal status per EU standards for such.

    ...but as of now, putin/russia's promises to donbass to protect them have been shown hollow,
    if russia wasn't going to back them up, they shouldn't have made them, and allow people false hope with horrific consequences.

    (one can say any russian supply of iglas, in addition to captured units, did effect a NFZ, but russia clearly had capability to
    impose total NFZ from beginning, prevent use of artillery & heavy weapons etc, to prevent civilian/infrastructure damage...
    the major cumulative source of NAF arms clearly is CAPTURED units, so russia destroying artillery etc, would have PREVENTED
    their use by NAF in further conflict in rest of novorussia/ukraine... still preventing illegal junta from repressing civilian self-organization,
    and sending that message to all of ukraine which was threatened by junta-imposed governors, illegal armed groups, etc.)

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    Post  mutantsushi Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:48 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Idea of Novorossiya is still hollow at the moment. There is no political core. Is it Monarchy or Socialism like some rebels try to portray it Very Happy ?  
    Putinism Wink
    Rolling Eyes
    Seriously, ask any Russian what happens after Putin... Savor the silence.
    Now most countries, nobody KNOWS who the next president will be, etc, but there will be the standard leading candidates, etc.
    Russia, it is a systemic/existential void awaiting, to the extent that everything besides Yeltsin-style degeneracy is invested in Putin.
    Medvedev's legacy seems to have no weight, being an extension of Putin reign, basically the exception that prooves the rule.
    Although this subject may best belong in Russian Technology Development thread, i.e How To Clone Putin... :-)
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:48 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Idea of Novorossiya is still hollow at the moment. There is no political core. Is it Monarchy or Socialism like some rebels try to portray it Very Happy ?  

    Putinism Wink

    Rubbish. The idea of Novorossiya is being created by the ethno-fascism of the regime in charge of Kiev. Instead of fixating
    on the Donbas, perhaps reserving some attention to the Rwanda style talk and action (e.g. Odessa) from the "real" Ukrainains
    might make the situation clearer.

    I still see people peddling the notion of sovereignty and territorial integrity. Those are quaint notions that have nothing to
    do with international law. International law puts the rights to self-determination above the territorial integrity of countries.
    This is what the International Court of Justice at the Hague has ruled. If anyone is going to chatter about international law,
    then they cannot ignore the precedent set by the Kosovo secession.

    It is rather clear that there is sharp ethnic distinction between the Donbas and western Ukraine, so one can't hide behind the
    "they are all Ukrainians" fig leaf.

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