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    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships

    franco
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    Post  franco Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:09 pm

    At the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2019, a modern transport landing boat "D-2110" of project 02510 (BK-16) was presented. The project of the speed boat 02510 (BK-16) was developed at the beginning of this decade by the Rybinsk Shipyard enterprise. She became the second type of boat in Russia, which was created on the basis of the ideas of the famous Swedish small combat boats of the Combat Boat 90 (SV 90) project developed by the Dockstavarvet company. The first was project 03160 "Raptor" built by JSC Leningrad Shipyard "Pella". Boats BK-16 are designed for operations in sea coastal zones, straits, river estuaries and on lakes, as well as for transporting personnel, landing troops on unequipped coast and their fire support, fighting piracy and terrorism. To ensure mobility when basing BK16 boats, a complex of technical means has been developed, which may include: - a car trailer, - a coast guard post, created on the basis of a standard shipping container. The total displacement is 19.5 tons. The normal draft is determined at 0.87 m. The maximum speed of the boat is 42 knots, the crew is two people, the landing capacity is 19 people. "BK-16" can be armed with four 7.62 mm machine guns in combination with two 12.7 mm machine guns, or with a 40 mm grenade launcher. In addition, the boats provide for the possibility of placing anti-sabotage mines and a small-sized missile system of the "Kornet" type. In 2014 Rybinsk Shipyard built the lead boat of the new project. In the fall of the same year, the first BK-16 was sent to the Black Sea for testing. In mid-2015, the lead boat of project 02510 was commissioned into the fleet. The order book, taking into account built, under construction and contracted boats, is at least 30 units.

    Источник: https://kvjpze2s4om7kwnux74bfdyl7q--bastion-karpenko-ru.translate.goog/ ВТС «БАСТИОН» A.V.Karpenko

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    medo
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    Post  medo Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:01 pm

    https://www.vympel-rybinsk.ru/na-ssz-vympel-sostojalas-vykatka-morskogo-transporta-vooruzhenija.html

    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships - Page 19 19-95710

    Vympel take out new ship for armament transport Gennadiy Dmitriev project 20360M for Black sea fleet.

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    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:38 pm

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4277701.html

    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships - Page 19 88146710

    Torpedo catcher TL-2195 from project 1388NZT is accepted in Black sea fleet.


    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4277939.html

    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships - Page 19 20-95710

    Supply ship Vsevolod Bobrov from project 23120 start sea trials.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:45 am

    Smile ... torpedo catcher... sounds like Javelin catcher...

    Torpedo recovery or retriever vessel is probably a better description...

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    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:54 am

    The Navy will receive the latest cable vessels Vyatka and Volga in 2023 and 2024

    MOSCOW, March 23. / TASS /. The newest ocean-going cable vessels Vyatka and Volga of project 15310 being built at the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch will be handed over to the Russian Navy in 2023 and 2024. This was reported to TASS on Tuesday by a source in the military-industrial complex.

    "The existing plans envisage the transfer of Vyatka and Volga to the Russian Navy in 2023 and 2024," he said.

    Previously, it was supposed to transfer the ships in 2018 and 2019, then in 2020-2021. The delay in construction arose presumably due to the need to replace imported equipment with domestic.

    According to the source, now the construction of ships is proceeding according to the schedule, there are no problems. "These are giant steamers," he said. The displacement of each of them is over 10 thousand tons, the length is about 140 m. Both have the 5th ice class.

    The interlocutor of the agency added that one of the ships will become part of the Northern Fleet, the other - into the Pacific Fleet.

    The vessels were laid down in 2015 in Zelenodolsk, since 2016 their construction was continued by the Zaliv plant. According to officially unconfirmed information, during this time "Volga" received a new name - "Sviyaga". On August 18, 2020 Vyatka was launched. It was to be followed by the Volga, after which the dry construction dock of the Zaliv will be used for the construction of two universal amphibious assault ships, officially laid down at the enterprise on July 20, 2020.

    https://xm432hc6jqv7lta5pipea3ji4u--tass-ru.translate.goog/armiya-i-opk/10971047?utm_source=warfiles.ru

    NOTE: this had been discussed recently on another thread. Appears construction is back on.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:19 pm

    The first serial sea tanker of project 21130 "Vasily Nikitin" laid down in Shlisselburg

    https://en.topwar.ru/181314-pervyj-serijnyj-morskoj-tanker-proekta-21130-vasilij-nikitin-zalozhen-v-shliselburge.html

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:00 am

    franco wrote:The Navy will receive the latest cable vessels Vyatka and Volga in 2023 and 2024

    MOSCOW, March 23. / TASS /. The newest ocean-going cable vessels Vyatka and Volga of project 15310 being built at the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch will be handed over to the Russian Navy in 2023 and 2024. This was reported to TASS on Tuesday by a source in the military-industrial complex.

    "The existing plans envisage the transfer of Vyatka and Volga to the Russian Navy in 2023 and 2024," he said.

    Previously, it was supposed to transfer the ships in 2018 and 2019, then in 2020-2021. The delay in construction arose presumably due to the need to replace imported equipment with domestic.

    According to the source, now the construction of ships is proceeding according to the schedule, there are no problems. "These are giant steamers," he said. The displacement of each of them is over 10 thousand tons, the length is about 140 m. Both have the 5th ice class.

    The interlocutor of the agency added that one of the ships will become part of the Northern Fleet, the other - into the Pacific Fleet.

    The vessels were laid down in 2015 in Zelenodolsk, since 2016 their construction was continued by the Zaliv plant. According to officially unconfirmed information, during this time "Volga" received a new name - "Sviyaga". On August 18, 2020 Vyatka was launched. It was to be followed by the Volga, after which the dry construction dock of the Zaliv will be used for the construction of two universal amphibious assault ships, officially laid down at the enterprise on July 20, 2020.

    https://xm432hc6jqv7lta5pipea3ji4u--tass-ru.translate.goog/armiya-i-opk/10971047?utm_source=warfiles.ru

    NOTE: this had been discussed recently on another thread. Appears construction is back on.
    yeah, and in addition it was possible to see that at least one of the ships was floated and is not anymore in the drydock
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:44 pm


    Project 23130 was developed by ZAO Spetsudoproekt. A tanker with a deadweight of 9000 t has a maximum length of 130 m, a width of 21.5 m, a draft of 7 m, a cruising range of up to 8000 miles, an autonomy of 60 days, a crew of 24 people. The speed of the vessel in full load at a maximum draft of 16 knots.

    The functionality of the tanker will allow it to supply fuel simultaneously to three ships sailing from it at a distance of 50 to 100 meters on board or by wake-up method.

    The independent navigation of the ship in the regions of the non-Arctic seas is not limited by anything. It corresponds to the category of ice enhancement "Arc 4" and has the ability to independently navigate in thin one-year Arctic ice with a thickness of up to 0.8 meters in summer-autumn and up to 0.6 meters in winter-spring navigation. The laying ceremony for the Russian Navy of the medium sea tanker of project 23130 "Vasily Nikitin" (serial number 902) at the LLC "Nevsky shipbuilding and shiprepairing plant" in Shlisselburg 03/26/2021 (c) JSC "United Shipbuilding Corporation"


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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:29 pm


    Work on upgraded Project 12411 Molonya-class missile ships has apparently resumed

    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships - Page 19 03-9614033-26.03.2021-1

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    Post  Hole Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:50 pm

    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships - Page 19 Eysj8210
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    Post  owais.usmani Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:10 pm

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4290977.html

    As it became known to Kommersant, the completion of the completion of the multifunctional rescue vessel Kerch Strait, which has been conducted by the Amur Shipyard for more than ten years, has faced problems due to sanctions. European companies have refused to inspect, install, commission and test Rolls-Royce propulsion equipment and the Kongsberg integrated control system purchased nearly a decade ago. United Shipbuilding Corporation is trying to find a contractor, but so far to no avail. Kommersant's interlocutors in the market believe that the shipyard will have to purchase new equipment, which may cost at least 1 billion rubles.

    Due to the sanctions, the Amur Shipyard (ASZ), part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), has problems with the completion of the Kerch Strait multifunctional rescue vessel. According to Kommersant's interlocutors, the shipyard cannot carry out the necessary work with Rolls-Royce propulsion equipment, as well as Kongsberg systems, since the Europeans refused to work with the enterprise because of the sanctions.

    As follows from the data of the state procurement website, in mid-March, the ASZ announced a tender with a maximum price of 79 million rubles. VAT included for the execution of works on installation supervision, commissioning, as well as mooring and sea trials of two propellers (RSP) and three Rolls-Royce thrusters. The equipment itself, as indicated in the documents, was delivered in 2011-2012.

    Also, according to the contract, it is necessary to carry out similar work on the integrated control system Kongsberg Maritime, including the inspection of equipment after long-term storage. The work will be completed in December 2021. No applications were submitted for the competition.

    The vessel is due to be commissioned in December 2011, but construction has been suspended. After the court proceedings, the contract was terminated and the money was returned to the budget. During this time, Nordic Yards in Wismar, then owned by Vitaly Yusufov (sold in 2016 to the Malaysian Genting), built for almost 6 billion rubles. two similar vessels - "Bering Strait" and "Murman". In 2018, it was decided to complete the construction of the Kerch Strait and appoint USC as a single contractor ( see Kommersant dated December 26, 2018 ). The cost of construction was then estimated at 4.6 billion rubles, the order for USC threatened to be unprofitable. The ship was supposed to be commissioned in December 2020, but it was launched only at the end of October.

    Sources of Kommersant in the industry say that the equipment is suitable for work, it is necessary to carry out minor repairs due to the storage period - for example, to replace rubber gaskets at the VRK. Asian companies could be found for such work, but USC needs a warranty period and maintenance ...

    The interlocutors believe that it will not be possible to find contractors, which means that they will have to purchase new equipment, which can cost at least 1 billion rubles.

    The multifunctional rescue vessel "Kerch Strait" with a capacity of 7 MW is being built according to the project of the Marine Engineering Bureau MPSV06. The vessels have an unlimited navigation area and an Icebreaker 6 class. The contract for the construction of the Kerch Strait for 3.6 billion rubles, which was given by the budget, was signed in December 2009. The customer was Rosmorrechflot, the operator should be the FSBI Morspasluzhba. The contractor was the Far East Shipbuilding and Ship Repair Center (DTSSS, then fully part of USC, is now managed by a consortium of Rosneft, Rosneftegaz and Gazprombank). The rescuer was laid down in July 2010 at the ASZ (then it was a member of the DTSSS, now it is at the USC).

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:54 am

    Clearly the solution is to produce superior equipment and then actively sell it on the international market in competition with those companies that refused to cooperate and support their products.

    Will be expensive, but should be rather satisfying too.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:54 am

    GarryB wrote:Clearly the solution is to produce superior equipment and then actively sell it...

    It's stalled for a decade

    Solution is to scrap the damn thing and stop designing ships around imported components

    This is regular occurrence, is there a single Russian ship that was designed around non-imported equipment?
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:08 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Clearly the solution is to produce superior equipment and then actively sell it...

    It's stalled for a decade

    Solution is to scrap the damn thing and stop designing ships around imported components

    This is regular occurrence, is there a single Russian ship that was designed around non-imported equipment?

    Just goes to show what I've been saying all along here in this forum, but people wouldn't listen

    Russia did not start its revival with the presidency of Putin the Chess Grandmaster in 2000

    Most of the 21st century Putin has been both complicit, and complacent in the continuation of a loosing strategy and acute sensitivity to the interests of Russia's "Western partners", and basically continuing the old Yeltsin scheme of "who needs our planes anyway, we can just sell oil, and buy planes from Boeing".
    He hoped to build Europe "from Lisbon to Vladivostok" but as events showed Europe did not give a crap about Russia's security interests nor its traditional markets and supported every anti-Russian coup and regime on its doorstep.

    Russia's revival only started in 2014 and then, only because our elite was forced into it. Forced, with no way out. They made at least some contingencies for it, but not enough.
    Nor the colour revolutions in 2003/2004 woke them up, nor the NATO bombings of Yugoslavia earlier (albeit those at least alerted them), nor the 2008 war with US client state Georgia.

    Now as it is Russia has lost a lot of time, and half its remaining allies. It's unclear whether the progress made during the last 7 years is sufficient, because these last 7 years might be all that we get. Stalin in his day had twice that time, and made much more rapid progress.

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    Post  LMFS Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:15 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Just goes to show what I've been saying all along here in this forum, but people wouldn't listen

    We listen and find this utter nonsense, no matter how many sore commies spend their lives faking tears over Russia's "lost opportunities". Putin's approach passed the real world test, commie's approach is little more than a fake religion for delusional people. You are wrong and have lost in all possible ways, get over it. Your comments about "elites" show you still don't get how a civilised society works in reality, much less how to use that knowledge to articulate a viable strategy to develop the country vs. experienced and powerful enemies. Stating that the Russian government just wanted to sell the country Yeltsin style all along is pure inanity, if it was like that you would have stayed deep in the shit and by now there would be no Russia, with the remaining population living below Ukrainian standards. You just don't understand or rather refuse to understand, because you are too invested in a dogma that does not work. Sorry but since you don't mince words, I am entitled to doing the same.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:45 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Just goes to show what I've been saying all along here in this forum, but people wouldn't listen

    We listen and find this utter nonsense, no matter how many sore commies spend their lives faking tears over Russia's "lost opportunities". Putin's approach passed the real world test, commie's approach is little more than a fake religion for delusional people. You are wrong and have lost in all possible ways, get over it. Your comments about "elites" show you still don't get how a civilised society works in reality, much less how to use that knowledge to articulate a viable strategy to develop the country vs. experienced and powerful enemies. Stating that the Russian government just wanted to sell the country Yeltsin style all along is pure inanity, if it was like that you would have stayed deep in the shit and by now there would be no Russia, with the remaining population living below Ukrainian standards. You just don't understand or rather refuse to understand, because you are too invested in a dogma that does not work. Sorry but since you don't mince words, I am entitled to doing the same.

    Yet that's exactly what Yeltsin did

    Putin was an improvement but it was mostly just a mix of him fixing the most immediate crises as well as well as getting rid of the biggest leaches, before eventually the system transformed into something concrete driven by circumstance. Back in the 2000s Putin was all war on terror, helping the US get bases in Central Asia, etc..

    This sort of stuff happens more often than you think and it's always sold with some veneer of nationalism and patriotism to a gullible population. I mean it's basically what the Ukraine is now, a permanent Yeltsin regime and they legitimize everything through ultra-nationalism

    But you just have to examine what the actual policies are ultimately, to sniff out a compadre bourgeois class as opposed to a national one. And honestly it's not that difficult. The Russian elite prior to 2014 did not pass the sniff test.

    And as for me being wrong and having lost; listen, I don't have this amount of time to devote to theoretical debates on governance, economics, society and so on. That's why I usually slip away from the argument after a while.
    Rest assured though that if I did have the time, you'd all have been humming to my tune by now Twisted Evil
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    Post  LMFS Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:00 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Yet that's exactly what Yeltsin did

    Putin was an improvement but it was mostly just a mix of him fixing the most immediate crises as well as well as getting rid of the biggest leaches, before eventually the system transformed into something concrete driven by circumstance. Back in the 2000s Putin was all war on terror, helping the US get bases in Central Asia, etc..

    This sort of stuff happens more often than you think and it's always sold with some veneer of nationalism and patriotism to a gullible population. I mean it's basically what the Ukraine is now, a permanent Yeltsin regime and they legitimize everything through ultra-nationalism

    But you just have to examine what the actual policies are ultimately, to sniff out a compadre bourgeois class as opposed to a national one. And honestly it's not that difficult. The Russian elite prior to 2014 did not pass the sniff test.

    And as for me being wrong and having lost; listen, I don't have this amount of time to devote to theoretical debates on governance, economics, society and so on. That's why I usually slip away from the argument after a while.
    Rest assured though that if I did have the time, you'd all have been humming to my tune by now Twisted Evil

    Good, I don't have either time or interest for lengthy ideological discussions.

    Bottom line is very simple, Putin turned the situation around because he had 1) the brains 2) the principles 3) the circumstances (namely, support from a big enough portion of the Russian elites and arrogant focus of US on other topics in the early 2000's)

    Any of those factors missing, Russia would be over and nothing more than a frozen 3rd world shithole, already split in areas of influence under the control / looting of the West. Suggesting any comprador maggot, faking patriotism against his will, would have achieved to bring back Russia from the clinic death status she was in 1999 to superpower level in 20 years is an insult to intelligence and to the people that really suffer treacherous elites looting their countries and ruining their lives on a daily base

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:34 am

    It's stalled for a decade

    Solution is to scrap the damn thing and stop designing ships around imported components

    This is regular occurrence, is there a single Russian ship that was designed around non-imported equipment?

    You can have your little tantrum and blame Putin for anything you like... the irony would be that if he actually did what you think he should have done and demanded everything Russia used had to be Russian made using all Russian components they wouldn't be able to make anything for quite a long period and the cost of making everything themselves would mean they couldn't make anywhere near as much as they actually did, so there would be an enormous deficit of material and equipment, plus all the money they spent on improving the things they did make like nuclear powered cruise missiles and hypersonic anti ship weapons and strategic weapons that evade US ABM systems, not to mention some of the best SAMs and armoured vehicles on the planet, instead they would be busy spending their money making special lights for dashboards on ships, and insulation and other minor bits and pieces they saved an enormous amount of time and money buying off the shelf when it was available.

    Of course when the sanctions are applied problems will be created, but demanding from day one everything is made in Russia means nothing would be made in Russia.

    By using Ukrainian engines in their ships there has been a gap of five to six years where they couldn't make ships... from about 2014 to rather recently, but if they had stopped buying Ukrainian engines in 2000 the Russian companies that worked on the problem for the last half decade were in nothing like they shape they are in now and honestly would have struggled to get it done... it would have taken much longer and been much more expensive, and all the things they were doing for 14 years would then need to be done after and most of that was new CnC machines and computer design equipment and other stuff that helps make doing things easier and cheaper and faster.

    More than that.. it likely would have pissed the Ukraine off so the US would not have needed all their colour revolutions, the Ukraine would have cut Russia off 15 years before they did, and Russia in 2000 was in no condition to be abandoned by its main trading partner...

    It essentially would have condensed all the isolation and sanctions the Russians are dealing with now, back to a time when they were very much not equipped to deal with the consequences... the damage would have been much higher and the costs would have been much higher and Russia would have been left in a much more vulnerable and weak state...

    But the ships would not have been built either... trying to make them of Russian components that didn't exist at the time would make them too expensive to build because the cost of designing thrusters to replace the rolls royce ones they built would make it too expensive to bother.

    Russia did not start its revival with the presidency of Putin the Chess Grandmaster in 2000

    Putin inherited a very weak hand... a very weak hand with a lot of potential but weak nonetheless.

    If he had started playing then with that hand like he was holding what he holds now he would never hold the hand he has now, Russia would have been isolated and suffocated.

    Most of the 21st century Putin has been both complicit, and complacent in the continuation of a loosing strategy and acute sensitivity to the interests of Russia's "Western partners", and basically continuing the old Yeltsin scheme of "who needs our planes anyway, we can just sell oil, and buy planes from Boeing".

    Putin had to play that game or the attempts to crush Russia would have started much earlier than they did and would have done much more damage... Hitler couldn't do it and neither could napoleon... I rather doubt a Bush or Obama or Clinton could have managed, but Russia is in a good position which it would not be had he tried to play the strong man with nothing to back it up.

    He hoped to build Europe "from Lisbon to Vladivostok" but as events showed Europe did not give a crap about Russia's security interests nor its traditional markets and supported every anti-Russian coup and regime on its doorstep.

    But of course the Europeans never said they didn't give a crap to his face, they just led him on letting him think what he liked, and systematically tried to break his country by shredding away old allies and neighbours... not realising of course many of those old allies and neighbours were more of a problem than an asset.

    He realised he was getting no where no matter which side of the political spectrum was in power in these western countries, so he started to assert Russian power as it has evolved.

    He has done it carefully and gradually so the gradual response and pushback has enabled Russia to disentangle from the west and allow the west to push Russia away, rather than to openly reject the west and be brutally attacked for that blasphemy.

    Russia is rather independent and much stronger now because it was gradual and the countermeasures were designed to help Russia rather than to hurt the west, though obviously they hurt western interests in Russia, it was not like they financed 11/9 or supported terrorists like the west has done with supporting the Chechen terrorists killing children in Beslan, and calling them freedom fighters...

    Russia's revival only started in 2014 and then, only because our elite was forced into it. Forced, with no way out. They made at least some contingencies for it, but not enough.
    Nor the colour revolutions in 2003/2004 woke them up, nor the NATO bombings of Yugoslavia earlier (albeit those at least alerted them), nor the 2008 war with US client state Georgia.

    It had to happen that way or it would not have worked out as well as it did.

    Dealing with the rich west seems safe and the best choice for any country, but the west didn't get rich and powerful by being nice or fair, they are total bastards and if you are lucky you might earn minimum wage from a deal, but you can be sure much of the profit goes to them... and all the ownership rights etc.

    Russia dealing with other countries can deal on more equal terms and make much more money, as can the trade partner...


    Now as it is Russia has lost a lot of time, and half its remaining allies.

    Honestly I think Russia is better off without most of the Ukraine... the sooner that country can decide where its future lies... the EU/US and the rest of the world, the better... it does not need to join the Russian federation... it just needs those censored in Kiev from shelling them and sabotaging their daily life.

    It's unclear whether the progress made during the last 7 years is sufficient, because these last 7 years might be all that we get. Stalin in his day had twice that time, and made much more rapid progress.

    A very good comparison... Stalin murdered as many of Russias best and brightest as he created... he used fear to motivate... anyone who thinks that is a good idea is likely to get murdered by their sons when they get old enough to understand what a censored they are.

    We listen and find this utter nonsense, no matter how many sore commies spend their lives faking tears over Russia's "lost opportunities". Putin's approach passed the real world test, commie's approach is little more than a fake religion for delusional people.

    Actually I think Putin is the best type of commie... he cares about the Russian people and wont sell them out to other countries for baubles.

    He is happy to nationalise things that are in the Russian interests not to be foreign owned, but he is open to competition and free trade...

    He is the opposite of western politicians, and I like him.

    Your comments about "elites" show you still don't get how a civilised society works in reality,

    Every society has elites, which is code word for rich, because money is power.... and such people are present in every society... ironically the best you can hope for is the situation Putin has engineered in Russia, where rich people pay tax and don't get involved in politics and invest their money in Russia preferably.

    Obviously it is not perfect and I suspect more want to hide their money than invest in Russia and have it grow as the country develops... but that just shows the cowardice of most rich people.

    Putin was an improvement but it was mostly just a mix of him fixing the most immediate crises as well as well as getting rid of the biggest leaches, before eventually the system transformed into something concrete driven by circumstance.

    More extreme shock therapy has destroyed other countries... the fact that Russia survived the conversion from communism to free market democracy is a miracle... you make it sound like it should have been easy and natural and yet he still fucked it up... well I am saying it very easily could have been much worse and you can claim to know better all you like... I can talk shit on the internet with the best of them but respect is due to someone who actually did it and put Russia in a position it would never be other wise.

    Back in the 2000s Putin was all war on terror, helping the US get bases in Central Asia, etc..

    And why wouldn't he... according to the promises of the west at the end of the cold war Russia was to be welcomed into the international community because they are the same with no ideological differences... except they didn't say that the west is imperial colonial first world and Russia has just moved from communist rival for power second world to third world resources for the first world to plunder status.

    Putin knows this now, explaining his shift to other directions... Russia now knows smoking and too much sugar is bad and while it is hard they are looking elsewhere for other things and trying to kick their habits of eating the wrong things and smoking.

    Any of those factors missing, Russia would be over and nothing more than a frozen 3rd world shithole, already split in areas of influence under the control / looting of the West.

    I disagree... Russians are used to hardship and despite being in a much worse place they will never be the third world gas station that makes nothing that Obama described them as being... and I am sure every time they think things are hard they can play that soundbite to remember who they are fighting and why.

    Enough OT for this thread now.... Off Topic

    LMFS likes this post


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