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    Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    MoD is considering purchase of two RoRo vessels from China for conversion into hospital ships

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4052931.html



    It's not a terrible idea, of course, they wouldn't be as good has properly built hospital ships.

    I don't see the point of building the ships themselves, they have their hands full, and if its something like a hospital ship there is no harm in getting a second-hand vessel for the job.

    You don't need some super fancy ship to do a simple job like that after all.

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    MoD is considering purchase of two RoRo vessels from China for conversion into hospital ships

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4052931.html



    It's not a terrible idea, of course, they wouldn't be as good has properly built hospital ships.

    I don't see the point of building the ships themselves, they have their hands full, and if its something like a hospital ship there is no harm in getting a second-hand vessel for the job.

    You don't need some super fancy ship to do a simple job like that after all.


    Don't look like they have their hands full

    In April-May, several domestic design bureaus presented to the Russian military department their designs for new hospital ships for the Navy. About this Mil.Press FLOT told sources in three design bureaus. Two design bureaus are part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

    Two designers from large Russian design bureaus told the publication that even with a small series, it would be more logical to build such vessels ourselves, from Russian components and at domestic shipyards. According to them, in the context of the transition to life cycle contracts, servicing Russian equipment will ultimately be cheaper and, most importantly, will work for the home economy.

    The deepest study of the hospital vessel was performed by the Nizhny Novgorod Design Bureau Vympel. As Mil.Press FlotProm reported in 2018, the technical design of the vessel based on a single modular platform was created as part of the development work of Platform-DTO. He is awaiting a customer decision. The hospital ship from Vympel was created in several versions, differing in the number of beds and the complexity of medical equipment.

    The Nevsky Design Bureau also presented its studies. We are talking about a number of projects based on landing ships. These developments differ in displacement, equipment and capabilities.

    More
    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B019/
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:07 pm

    Russian design bureau's say lots of things that are fiction, they just want the money for themselves is all.

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:46 pm

    dino00 wrote:...Don't look like they have their hands full

    If it seems way it's because they are constantly dropping the ball with priority Naval orders

    Adding hospital ships on the list would just create even more delays

    Russian shipyards should focus on finishing jobs already started, hospital ships can be handled by China

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:49 am

    Having reread the article... are they buying Roll on Roll off cargo ships from China to then convert into Hospital ships in China or is the conversion happening in Russia?

    The fact that they already have three hospital ships and that two don't even move suggests it is not super urgent, but it is an opportunity to build some new from scratch designs optimised for the purpose.

    In that article it said that foreign use of hospital ships in a pandemic situation tended to be used for patients that didn't have the virus but had other problems... by putting those patients on the ship you reduce their chances of getting the virus via the air processing/heating and cooling system of the ship, or a hospital.

    It would free up on land hospital beds to deal with virus infected patients.

    The fundamental purpose of these sorts of ships is to operate with surface groups of ships operating well away from Russia so Russian Navy personel can be cared for medically, including during conflicts where land based hospitals can't cope... they would also be useful in disaster relief or to support fighting serious forest fires with lots of burns victims for instance.

    On the whole I would think building them in Russia probably makes more sense... if it is only going to take an extra year then that is not really a problem... these things are not super urgent right now and while it will cost more money it will be money spent in Russias economy instead of someone elses...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:Having reread the article... are they buying Roll on Roll off cargo ships from China to then convert into Hospital ships in China or is the conversion happening in Russia?...

    Conversion would be done in Russia but already built ships would be purchased from China

    That way they minimize risk of these ships becoming decade(s) long disasters should they hit any snags

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:58 am

    So the conversion will take 3 years and they say they could build their own design in 4.

    The fact of the matter is the more work they can do in Russia the better, and delays because of problems are delays in building ships and the only way they are going to solve those sort of problems is by building more ships... not sending work offshore...

    I would say this is not super urgent, give the job to a local shipyard and get it started... fund it properly.

    I would think with the expansion into the arctic and far east regions that a mobile hospital would come in rather handy for outlying regions near a river or port...

    Friendly visits to Pacific Islands would also likely be welcomed... Cuba gets a lot of good will and income from its excellent healthcare industry and hires out doctors and nurses like Pakistan hires out fighter pilots to Saudi Arabia...

    Management and planning and design are skills... you wont get better if you farm off all the jobs to foreign companies.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:14 am

    GarryB wrote:So the conversion will take 3 years and they say they could build their own design in 4....

    Key phrase here is 'they say'

    And they have said oh so many things over the years and decades will oh so very little to show for it



    GarryB wrote:
    The fact of the matter is the more work they can do in Russia the better...

    They should first and foremost focus on finishing work they already started in Russia



    GarryB wrote:and delays because of problems are delays in building ships and the only way they are going to solve those sort of problems is by building more ships... not sending work offshore...

    If that were true Russian​ shipbuilding industry would be problem-free and Russian Navy would be largest one in existence

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:17 am

    GarryB wrote:So the conversion will take 3 years and they say they could build their own design in 4.

    The fact of the matter is the more work they can do in Russia the better, and delays because of problems are delays in building ships and the only way they are going to solve those sort of problems is by building more ships... not sending work offshore...

    I would say this is not super urgent, give the job to a local shipyard and get it started... fund it properly.

    I would think with the expansion into the arctic and far east regions that a mobile hospital would come in rather handy for outlying regions near a river or port...

    Friendly visits to Pacific Islands would also likely be welcomed... Cuba gets a lot of good will and income from its excellent healthcare industry and hires out doctors and nurses like Pakistan hires out fighter pilots to Saudi Arabia...

    Management and planning and design are skills... you wont get better if you farm off all the jobs to foreign companies.

    Yes and how many times did the Russian say something which turned out to be a nightmare, if we go by their recent history lots of things.

    Perhaps they could but its a hospital ship, you don't need something super expensive or high tech for such a purpose.

    Let me remind you Shoygu is the one who proposed this, you know the head defense minister second only to Putin, and his plan makes perfect sense.

    If they would have solved all of their problems with building more ships, then recent time certainly hasn't showed that to be true. The fact is they have tons of backlogged orders and take forever with simple projects.

    They have funded all of their projects properly either what happens is A, Incompetence to solve basic problems, B. The shipyard wants more money etc corruption, C TThe industry has shown it cannot work together to get things done on time.

    They need the experience themselves argument doesn't even work here.

    They have tons of ships to build and more orders on the way, a couple of hospital ships would just be delayed for years and years and they have gotten more then enough money from these orders. They have all the chance and are making more then enough shps to gain the experience and skill.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:10 pm


    Supply tug Andrei Stepanov completed trials and will be transferring to Kamchatka via North Sea Route

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12297985@egNews

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:13 am

    Key phrase here is 'they say'

    And they have said oh so many things over the years and decades will oh so very little to show for it

    That is very true... so to punish them we should close down all Russian shipyards and all Russian ship design companies and just get China and South Korea to supply military and civilian shipping for Russian needs?

    Or instead, we could look at their plans to determine if they are being reasonable and can deliver what they say... this is hardly a critical thing and to be honest only the usual suspects here will be whining in 4 years time because the two new hospital ships they promised would be ready in four years time will not be ready till next year... burn the witch burn the witch...

    They don't have a crystal ball... they have an idea of what needs to be done and how long it should take if there are no major problems... this ship already needs to have all Russian parts and kit on board so there wont be a delay having to find alternative sources for everything... however sometimes contractors can let you down.

    They are not going to get better if they don't make anything and all the contracts go to Chinese shipyards... and the point is that these are not CVNs they are roll on roll off ships... one presumes was selected because of there very open internal design.... custom made ships would be even more suitable and should make fitting it out as a hospital ship quicker and easier because it can be designed for the job.

    You don't get better at things by reading about what other shipyards are doing... you get better with practise and experience and often bad experience has rather more to teach us if we are not bullied and shamed for something that might have been out of our control to start with.

    They should first and foremost focus on finishing work they already started in Russia

    Who said they are not already doing that?

    The fact that they want the job suggests they are not over loaded with work at the moment.

    If that were true Russian​ shipbuilding industry would be problem-free and Russian Navy would be largest one in existence

    The fact that you suggest planning and production of major things like ships could ever be problem free shows how unrealistic you are... look at how much experience the US has... the British have... the French have... everyone has mistakes and problems... in fact the US has more problems that most right now... I would say the problems with the Ford will be sorted out eventually... the Zumwalt is a dog so the solution is to put the old destroyers back in to production and to sort out a more sensible replacement, and the solution to the LCS is a rather nice frigate design from Italy...  Wouldn't it be a laugh that they chose their way forward with the LCS by looking at what the Russians are doing and finding something off the shelf that is similar.... which means the 21st C replacement for the Zumwalts in the long term will likely be a US designed and built copy of whatever the Russians eventually make for their new destroyer sized ship design....

    Better than their Air Force of course... just say it is not a problem and we don't need it.... it doesn't need to work in cold places... it doesn't need to fly fast... it doesn't matter that pilots get suffocated periodically... hypoxia is great for decision making...

    Yes and how many times did the Russian say something which turned out to be a nightmare, if we go by their recent history lots of things.

    They are building two hospital ships. They are not trying to cure cancer. If these two ships are one or even two years late it is no big deal.

    Perhaps they could but its a hospital ship, you don't need something super expensive or high tech for such a purpose.

    You seem to be confusing the Russians with the American MIC... super expensive is not really something the Russians do.

    Let me remind you Shoygu is the one who proposed this, you know the head defense minister second only to Putin, and his plan makes perfect sense.

    Not it doesn't. Why spend money on a Chinese shipyard to build a simple RORO design ship when a Russian shipyard can build a more suitable design... this is not urgent so even if it takes one or two years longer than they say it wont matter.

    If the Russian company fucks up then they are going to fuck up... getting the ships built in China wont stop any fuckups and it will mean the Russian company can then say the Chinese ship was poorly built or not actually suitable or some such crap.

    If they would have solved all of their problems with building more ships, then recent time certainly hasn't showed that to be true. The fact is they have tons of backlogged orders and take forever with simple projects.

    They have delays with specific ships because specific parts needed are not available when they are needed. I am not suggesting the US Navy can't build speed boats because they fucked up everything else they were supposed to be making do I?

    Not every shipyard in Russia has backlogged orders... they made their portion of the Mistrals in the time allotted... with no problems at their end at all.

    They have funded all of their projects properly either what happens is A, Incompetence to solve basic problems, B. The shipyard wants more money etc corruption, C TThe industry has shown it cannot work together to get things done on time.

    You claim... so assuming you are right... why do you think the solution is to get China to build two RORO ships for the Russian company to then fit out as hospital ships... surely the Russian company is all incompetent before the project has even started... they should be fired and actual hospital ships should be bought from China...  that will teach that stupid Russian shipyard that hasn't done anything wrong yet...

    They need the experience themselves argument doesn't even work here.

    The Chinese production suggestion is because building simple RORO ships is simple and any idiot could do it so get the Chinese to crank out a couple really cheap and quick and then the Russian company will fit them out as hospital ships...  the Russian company is saying RORO ships are simple and basic so why not let us make the ships and fit them out as hospital ships.. if the Russian company is as incompetent as you suggest neither plan makes sense.

    They have tons of ships to build and more orders on the way, a couple of hospital ships would just be delayed for years and years and they have gotten more then enough money from these orders.

    But when their domestic ship builders are incompetent then all the orders for ships will go to Asia and all the money they spend will be going to Chinese and South Korean shipyards...

    They have all the chance and are making more then enough shps to gain the experience and skill.

    It is funny you think they only reason they want to make the ships themselves could possibly be corruption... maybe they have confidence in their own experience and skills to do the job themselves... they clearly seem to think they can do it.

    The Russian MIC has made a lot of support and auxiliary vessels... they had a problem scaling a river boat up to a sea going ship... which would be predictable but seem to be solved, and a few other boats with various problems including the French being two faced, a 100mm gun that is lighter than their old 76.2mm guns was delayed for a bit, and of course the Orcs refusing to deliver marine engines that were paid for and Germany refusing to supply engines as well... plus problems with the naval model of the S-350 SAM system. Honestly that is fuck all really considering it means the problems they couldn't solve have resulted in them investing in marine engines and propulsion systems which in the long term is actually much better for Russia.

    I remember a time when the Soviet Air Force had MiG-21s and MiG-23s and Mig-25s and the west had F-16s and F-15s and F-14s and I thought the Soviet planes were a bit boring... but WWIII didn't start and then they started introducing MiG-29s and Su-27s and MiG-31s and all of a sudden it didn't really matter at all...

    It doesn't matter if the Russian Navy can't rule the worlds oceans right now... at this stage of the game they just need to protect themselves from the monsters.

    In a decade or so's time when the Americans have pulled their heads in.... or had it kicked in... then Russia will need to expand its access to the world... scramjet powered aircraft flying at mach 20 will reduce the time it takes to get from Russia to anywhere to less than 10 hours when it is urgent... but most stuff will still move by sea.

    You can't cut off Russia and defeat her with a siege if she makes everything she needs for defence herself... and honestly you can't say that about many countries at all.

    The west has made the enormous mistake of rejecting and pushing Russia away... it has made her independent, so not only does she think for herself but she acts for herself now too. China has noticed but doesn't have the military might of Russia... they have the production base of the planet and lots of money too... together they face up against the west rather well, but neither have any reason to restrict themselves to partner ships with only the other... there is the rest of the world out there too and they are not looking to carve it up and consume it like the west did... it doesn't hurt Russia if China makes lots of money and it doesn't hurt China if Russia makes a lot of money... Ironically China and Russia are the main portions of what the west once called the second world... they have the technology and when working together they have the political and military and economic power to be a viable alternative to the west except they have no reason to keep the third world in a box like the west did.

    In comparison if they had been decent and a bit more understanding about Russian needs there would be an enormous resource rich country that was their ally... but no.... all the west sees is divide and conquer... and then rape and pillage...

    The reality is that an Indian engineer can be just as capable as an American or Russian or Chinese one and the same goes for an engineer from Namibia or Uganda... teach them the same stuff and there is no reason they wont produce the same quality of work or better... having a clever idea is often more a combination of putting two or more other ideas together in a clever way... a eureka moment... you don't have to be super smart... lots of things have been invented by accident while trying to do other things... you just have to be smart enough to realise what you have discovered....
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:30 pm

    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 pm

    Project development of a new small sea tanker under the code "Umba"

    On June 23, 2020, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation placed an application for development work on the development of a small offshore tanker of a new project project on the procurement website (code “Umba”).

    The Ministry accepts proposals from bidders until July 27. A contract for 2 billion rubles will be signed with the winner, of which 50 million rubles are planned to be spent in 2020, 950 million rubles in 2021, and 1 billion rubles in 2022. It is assumed that the contractor will present to the customer the results of development work until November 10, 2022.

    Earlier in June 2020, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation placed a tender for the development of an upgraded version of the sea tugboat project 22870 for the same amount of 2 billion rubles.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4073738.html

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