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    US Air Force: Discussion and News

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:To be fair it was very easy for Russia to take the route they took because they simply could not waste that amount of money and resources on such things the way the US did.

    I thought it should be easier for the fair and democratic US to avoid crooks from ruling military procurement than for the corrupt Russian regime pwnd

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:21 am

    LMFS wrote:Then the 76 units order came and your lot astutely crawled beneath the rocks they came out from, not to make it even clearer that they had been full of shit for the last 20 years. Now you say they cannot afford the plane, despite them ordering it in big amounts and proceeding at high pace with the further modernization of the design and ramp up of the production. Or that they increasing procurement of 4.5G planes, when the facts are the exact opposite.
    Russian Air Force should soon be able to routinely fly traditionally manned combat aircraft in tandem with unmanned aircraft. So maybe that's why Kremlin is not placing more orders for Su-57.

    Su-57, Su-30SM, Su-35 flying in tandem with a UCAV like Mig SKAT can penetrate even a difficult Air Defense network like the Chinese Air Defense.


    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:28 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Russian Air Force should soon be able to routinely fly traditionally manned combat aircraft in tandem with unmanned aircraft. So maybe that's why Kremlin is not placing more orders for Su-57.

    Su-57, Su-30SM, Su-35 flying in tandem with a UCAV like Mig SKAT can penetrate even a difficult Air Defense network like the Chinese Air Defense.

    Traditionally VKS places one order for an aircraft type and waits for its fulfilment, until a new order is placed. Happened with most tactical aircraft in Russia and is happening again with Su-57, the 76 units is actually quite a big order for Russian standards and is planed to be delivered at a pace which is also rather high (ca. 1 sqd per year) once the production line gets up to speed in 2-3 years. So the current order is to be fulfilled by 2028 and until then there is no factual basis to claim that VKS is withholding orders for the Su-57, quite the contrary.

    But of course, they are getting other options (Okhotnik and LTS mainly) to substitute the current fleet, composed mainly of Flankers in all its variants. Unmanned aircraft will be used more and more, and this applies even to normally manned platforms like the Su-57 or LTS, that can be made unmanned or optionally manned, too. An UCAV like Okhotnik or Skat are mainly strike and reconnaissance tools, but the air superiority role will be left to fighters, some of which quite probably will be mixed wings of manned and (increasingly) unmanned LTS, but maybe also mixed wings of manned and unmanned Su-57, the technical possibility has already been announced.

    Going forward, the cheaper platforms allow Russia to increase their fleet at a reduced cost, rather than threaten the numbers of Su-57, which were always relatively restricted (estimations of 200-250 units in the long term) as a highest end platform that is overkill for most missions. USAF themselves are talking about ca. 100 NGAD, why should Russia produce thousands of Su-57?

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:58 pm

    Su-57 is a plateform, not a fighter. Just like su-27. They will produce it for the next 50 years in different variants and different upgrades. Build slowly but on a hard basis.

    F-35 is a scam. Once everyone paid for it they will invent another story about how they need actually a 7th gen fighter to counter the growing threat from Africa or from Mars because SpaceX consultants told them something is going on there.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:16 am

    The Su-57 is a new design that is largely untested.... no country on the planet has deployed thousands of 5th gen fighters... more importantly attempting to do so with the F-35 will likely bankrupt the west... I think it is very much a case of transferal... what western experts are saying is that we don't need so many F-35s because they are going to bankrupt us... so our argument will be that Russia wont be buying many Su-57s so perhaps we don't need 3,500 F-35s... but the problem is that the Su-57 might not be that much more expensive than Su-35s and if they have better performance why not make a few hundred of them...

    How can the US justify making F-15s when Russia is producing Su-57s... especially when Su-35s are already clearly kinematically superior to F-15s already let alone the improved Su-57s with new engines....


    So of course they will cry that Russia can't afford Su-57s... just like they couldn't afford to radically upgrade their soldier kit to go from WWII stuff to the best HATO could provide in a decade or so... their Super Solider stuff is into its third generation which will be deployed in 2025 or so, which is not that far away... and their new vehicle families are ticking over quite nicely... and their navy production needed a lot of planning and ground work but now they are producing rather good ships... if the west had any brains they would be buying Gorshkov class frigates for themselves... Britain could do with a couple of dozen right now.

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:46 am

    GarryB wrote:The Su-57 is a new design that is largely untested.... no country on the planet has deployed thousands of 5th gen fighters... more importantly attempting to do so with the F-35 will likely bankrupt the west... I think it is very much a case of transferal... what western experts are saying is that we don't need so many F-35s because they are going to bankrupt us... so our argument will be that Russia wont be buying many Su-57s so perhaps we don't need 3,500 F-35s... but the problem is that the Su-57 might not be that much more expensive than Su-35s and if they have better performance why not make a few hundred of them...
    Nice! We will now have to see what the optimum mix of manned and unmanned aircraft would be for the Russian Force now that RuAF fly traditionally manned combat aircraft in tandem with UAVs.

    It's also possible that one Su-57/Su-35/Su-34/Su-30 pilot will be able to control more than one UAV/UCAV like one Skat and one Okhotnik simultaneously. So the weapons package can also be distributed between 3 airborne platforms.

    Let's say it is a SEAD operation. So now the manned aircraft is not just carrying 10 air to surface missiles but is also controlling UCAVs that are carrying an equal number of air to surface missiles.
    Finty
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    Post  Finty Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:34 pm

    A good read, throwback to 1999...

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/are-americas-stealth-aircraft-invincible-192510
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:26 am

    Nice! We will now have to see what the optimum mix of manned and unmanned aircraft would be for the Russian Force now that RuAF fly traditionally manned combat aircraft in tandem with UAVs.

    The obvious problem there is that what suits the Russians might not suit anyone else... they might find their best solution is merely a fighter aircraft with a powerful AESA radar and L band array in the air with a couple of short range self defence missiles that gives complete radar coverage from sea level to the edge of space that provides target data for ground based missiles... including ancient obsolete ones that can be used to max range to shoot down drones and aircraft and cruise missiles...

    One fighter is limited by how many missiles it can carry and how long it can remain airborne, but having drones able to take off and land and refuel and rearm means the fighter can operate at moderate speed for long periods at medium to high altitudes and direct drones that can climb high and accelerate to high speed to launch missiles at targets... perhaps a ramjet powered drone able to supercruise and operate at high altitude so the fighters don't need to waste fuel climbing and accelerating to supersonic speeds to then have to slow down and descend to land and rearm and refuel.

    A good read, throwback to 1999...

    The irony is... that Serbian has learned to forgive the American who bombed his country and stole a large area of its land (Kosovo)... Wonder how many Americans would forgive Osama Bin Laden for 11/9 and be his friend... likely not many I suspect.
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    US Air Force: Discussion and News - Page 18 Empty USAF E-3 Sentry replacement by E-7 Wedgetail

    Post  JohninMK Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:56 pm

    Whilst the Australians, Turks, South Koreans and Brits have beaten a path for the US it looks as if the US are going to do something about their oldest and worn out Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) E-3 platforms.

    US Air Force: Discussion and News - Page 18 130227-F-NK166-996-e1499252800438.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&crop=top&fit=crop&h=580&ixlib=php-3.3

    Among the posts in an article on the subject, https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/u-s-air-force-to-buy-e-7-wedgetail-early-warning-aircraft/ was this interesting comment about the performance of the E-7 radar and its competitors that I thought worthy of copying across here.

    Couldn't find a better thread to put it in.

    Daveyb
    5 days ago
    Reply to Steve R

    That’s a very big ask and shoes to fill for a carrier UAV, that meets the MoD’s catapult and arrested landing RFI spec. The E7’s Multipurpose Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) is an absolute beast in both performance and size. For the Vixen to mount a radar that is comparable, the Vixen will have to be blooming huge and it will need to generate a lot of electrical power to feed it.

    Detection range has a lot to do with the size (area) of the antenna, which is directly proportional to the radar’s operating wavelength; though you can scale it back by using 1/4 of the wavelength to work nearly as well. The MESA is a L-band radar that operates between 1 to 2 GHz or a wavelength of 30 to 15 cm. This means each antenna horn/notch using the 1/4 wavelength scale, will need to be between 7.5 to 3.75cm long. The more antenna horn/notches the array has, the more powerful and sensitive the radar can be. Equally the squarer you can make the array also means the beam can be made more circular and narrower. Thus more power can be concentrated in a smaller area.

    The MESA doesn’t use a true transmitter-receiver module (TRM) that other active electronically scanned (AESA) radars use. But more of a form of a giant circuit board that incorporates a number of TRMs on it. I’m still unclear why Northrop Grumman did it this way, as if one part of the board is broken, you have replace the whole thing rather than a singular TRM? The back to back MESA measure 7.3m long by 2.7m high. This gives a published range in excess of 370km (230 miles) against a “fighter” sized target in the look down mode. Which is I’d say is conservatively below average for this size of radar and its operating frequency, especially when compared to the Sentry’s AN/APY-2 that operates at a higher frequency (10GHz-ish) that has a similar published detection range.

    The Saab Erieye has a similar two side AESA radar, but it operates in the S-band somewhere between 2 and 4 GHz (a wavelength of 15 to 7.5cm). But has a published detection range against a fighter sized target of 330km (205 miles). The radar is mounted above the aircraft and the “canoe” that houses it, is some 9m long and weighs around 900kg. It has a more flattened vertical beam profile (much like the Sentry and Hawkeye). Though this could be improved by double stacking the Erieye’s TRMs. This would also improve both the ERP and effective detection range, though equally, there must be sufficient electrical power to feed it.

    You could, as the Italian Navy are doing with their Merlins, fit 3 to 4 Leonardo Osprey AESA panels, to a much smaller UAV, thus giving it a 360 degree view. According to Leonardo, Osprey is a lightweight and low power requirement AESA radar, operating in the X-band (8 to 12 GHz / 3.73 to 2.5cm). It is a software driven multi-mode and multi-role radar. The launch customer was the USN, who have fitted the Osprey 30 version to the MQ-8C Firescout VTOL UAV (only fitting 2 forward facing panels to give a 240 degree view). With a published maximum detection range of 200nm (370km). However, Leonardo do not say what the target is. Mind you, none of the manufacturers have stated what a “fighter sized” target is!

    Radio waves when they propagate through the air are subject to attenuation (resistance). The higher the frequency the higher the attenuation. What this means in layman’s terms, is that for an equivalent effective radiated power, the lower frequency radar will not only transmit a lot further, but can also potentially detect the target from further away as well. For a X-band radar to have a comparable detection range to a L-band radar, it will have to be transmitting a shed load more power and thus require a lot more electrical power to feed it!

    The Vixen could use an Osprey like radar to give a better overall performance than the current Searchwater 2000, as used on the Crowsnest Merlin. But, you would need at least two preferably three UAVs operating simultaneously to generate a surveillance umbrella comparable to one E7A Wedgetail. Even then, to make matters worse, the effective detection range against a fighter sized target will be a lot shorter, due to attenuation limitations of the X-band radar. Meaning an attacking fighter will be able to get a lot closer before launching a missile before its detected. Thus placing you AEW platform at a significantly greater risk.

    I have said before what my thoughts are with giving the RN a step change in AEW capability. The aircraft (Boeing’s MQ-25 Stingray) and the radar (Saab Erieye) just need bringing together!

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:44 pm

    US Air Force: Discussion and News - Page 18 Fe5mku10
    Look at this stealthy airplane! Laughing

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:10 am

    The F-35 fanboys will be gushing about how that missile can turn so fast launching off a standard wing pylon... ignoring that the R-73 has been able to do that for 40 years...
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    Post  Finty Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:16 pm

    From last month

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.republicworld.com/amp/world-news/us-news/us-deploys-intelligence-jets-over-belarus-poland-border-says-routine-drill-with-allies.html
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:51 pm

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a38584553/air-force-turns-cargo-plane-into-bomber/

    The USAF has many dozens of C-130s, 146 C-17s, & 36 C-5s, which could carry 1.5-2x more ALCMs. They could also drop naval mines. Huge force multipliers!

    The F-35s will fly with drones, will have lasers & EW/directed energy weapons, so it's too early to call them useless & total failure.

    I bet the F-22 saga will be a repeat of the F-15 & F-18 sagas- i.e. deep modernization of a proven platform.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:29 am


    The USAF has many dozens of C-130s, 146 C-17s, & 36 C-5s , which could carry 1.5-2x more ALCMs. They could also drop naval mines. Huge force multipliers!

    Big easy to shoot down targets, which if used as cruise missile carriers will be targeted by enemy forces and pretty soon you will struggle to move anything because you have no transport planes available any more.

    And for what?

    The US Navy has enormous numbers of vertical launch missile tubes for cruise missiles anyway... the missiles are just too expensive to use in enormous numbers.

    The F-35s will fly with drones, will have lasers & EW/directed energy weapons , so it's too early to call them useless & total failure

    Any plane you want to add lasers and directed energy weapons is going to become very very expensive... the fact that they plane they want to start with is already very very expensive already and expensive just to fly suggests they are thrashing around trying to find a use for the expensive useless plane... which will waste more money... any one of those transport planes you talked about could take a directed energy weapon, and would have four engines to power it and space on board for all the equipment to make it very very powerful... more powerful than anything you could fit into a tiny fighter that is already currently mostly engine.

    A C-5M Galaxy would be cheaper to operate per hour than a single F-35...

    I bet the F-22 saga will be a repeat of the F-15 & F-18 sagas- i.e. deep modernization of a proven platform.

    What? Cancelled because of some hoaky concept that was never properly thought through and always more expensive than useful (Stealth) but kept in use because the stuff that is going to replace it ends up being a failure so eventually they are going to put it back into production because the cheap replacement will turn out too expensive to continue?

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:04 pm

    The USAF has many dozens of C-130s, 146 C-17s, & 36 C-5s , which could carry 1.5-2x more ALCMs. They could also drop naval mines. Huge force multipliers!
    Big easy to shoot down targets, which if used as cruise missile carriers will be targeted by enemy forces and pretty soon you will struggle to move anything because you have no transport planes available any more.
    no, they r stand-off LRCMs with 940km range. If need be, airworthy old C-130s in storage &/ near retirement could be converted to drones & carry ALCMs, & so their loss won't matter much.
    The US Navy has enormous numbers of vertical launch missile tubes for cruise missiles anyway... the missiles are just too expensive to use in enormous numbers.
    China can assemble a huge invasion force to swarm Taiwanese waters, so ships & subs won't be enough to deal with it.
    The F-35s will fly with drones, will have lasers & EW/directed energy weapons , so it's too early to call them useless & total failure
    Any plane you want to add lasers and directed energy weapons is going to become very very expensive... the fact that they plane they want to start with is already very very expensive already and expensive just to fly suggests they are thrashing around trying to find a use for the expensive useless plane... which will waste more money... A C-5M Galaxy would be cheaper to operate per hour than a single F-35...
    even after NGAD is developed, they'll keep the F-35s; a good lesson learned doesn't come cheap.
    I bet the F-22 saga will be a repeat of the F-15 & F-18 sagas- i.e. deep modernization of a proven platform.
    What? Cancelled because of some hooky concept that was never properly thought through and always more expensive than useful (Stealth) but kept in use because the stuff that is going to replace it ends up being a failure so eventually they are going to put it back into production because the cheap replacement will turn out too expensive to continue?
    perhaps not by putting back into production, but by modernizing the existing airframes so they can control drones & operate with F-35s & F-15EXs, not to mention other AF's & naval fighters.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-plans-for-6th-generation-fighter-jets-may-not-work-2021-11
    As always, time will tell!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:00 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add link, text)
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:22 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a38584553/air-force-turns-cargo-plane-into-bomber/

    The USAF has many dozens of C-130s, 146 C-17s, & 36 C-5s, which could carry 1.5-2x more ALCMs. They could also drop naval mines. Huge force multipliers!

    The F-35s will fly with drones, will have lasers & EW/directed energy weapons, so it's too early to call them useless & total failure.

    I bet the F-22 saga will be a repeat of the F-15 & F-18 sagas- i.e. deep modernization of a proven platform.

    Will and could - future tenses. All wet dreams, really, to cope with the fact that the Russians are steadily outpacing their opponents in technology: the Russian aerospace forces are nearing completion of their massive modernization drive replacing legacy Soviet hardware with modern 21st century Russian equivalents and even now are working on introducing the next gen. Take for example the S-400 - was initiated much later than the F-35, but entered service much faster and has already replaced the Cold war S-300s as the mainstay of the Russian strategic SAM arsenal. They are even going to introduce the S-500 next year. Meanwhile, the F-35s are struggling to get into service and as of today are not a viable combat force. If a war breaks out it would be dated F-16/15/18 that would be fighting against ultra-modern S-400s and their similarly up-to-date complements.

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    Post  Arrow Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:52 pm

    Meanwhile, the F-35s are struggling to get into service and as of today are not a viable wrote:


    The USA already has around 700 F 35 and in a decade it will be 1500.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:11 pm

    the Russian aerospace forces are nearing completion of their massive modernization drive replacing legacy Soviet hardware with modern 21st century Russian equivalents and even now are working on introducing the next gen. ..If a war breaks out it would be dated F-16/15/18 that would be fighting against ultra-modern S-400s and their similarly up-to-date complements.
    FYI, they r all being upgraded; drones & CM will be targeting S-400s. From the video in the link I posted, the F-22s would be upgraded & kept till 2060.
    Ask the Indians why they opted out of the Su-57 program.
    The USA already has around 700 F 35 and in a decade it will be 1500.
    even Finland ordered 64 F-35s for $9.4B, & Morocco Wants F-35 Fighters To ‘Ward Off’ Algeria That Plans To Acquire Russian Su-57 Jets.


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    Post  lyle6 Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:12 pm

    Arrow wrote:


    The USA already has around 700 F 35 and in a decade it will be 1500.
    And of those 700 how many are combat effective? A small fraction maybe, not even that? We're talking actual in service hardware here not just stuff that escaped the factory floor with a myriad of tests and or retrofitting to be completed before it could be a certified combatant. In a decade the Russians would have the S-500 in numbers and might even be introducing the successor so that makes what, 2 generations ahead? Twisted Evil

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    Post  lyle6 Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:21 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    FYI, they r all being upgraded; drones & CM will be targeting S-400s. From the video in the link I posted, the F-22s would be upgraded & kept till 2060.
    Subsonic cruise missiles lack the numbers to saturate an S-400 battalion rocking its point defense complement of Pantsirs, jammers, and decoys.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Ask the Indians why they opted out of the Su-57 program.
    They opted out because they couldn't afford paying for the hefty development costs while insisting to be given technology for pennies on the dollar. Who gives a shit what they say?

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
     even Finland ordered 64 F-35s for $9.4B, & Morocco Wants F-35 Fighters To ‘Ward Off’ Algeria That Plans To Acquire Russian Su-57 Jets.
    Good news - for the Russians and the Algerians. Finland and Morocco would barely be able to keep their militaries afloat after burning their procurement funds on white elephants that the Russians have developed effective counters to.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:33 pm

    Subsonic cruise missiles lack the numbers to saturate an S-400 battalion rocking its point defense complement of Pantsirs, jammers, and decoys.
    if all else fails, tactical nukes could be used against "the mainstay of the Russian strategic SAM arsenal." It could happen even more likely in a war with S-400 importers. An EMP warhead will fry their radars from over 400km.
    If the Su-57 was that good, China would be buying them to complement its J-20s, like those Su-35s they recently inducted.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:04 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    if all else fails, tactical nukes could be used against "the mainstay of the Russian strategic SAM arsenal." It could happen even more likely in a war with S-400 importers.
    Yeah right. Blow up the planetwide taboo on nuclear weapons and become a pariah even worse than NK and all over some missile battalion.

    Good job. Great plan.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    If the Su-57 was that good, China would be buying them to complement the J-20s, like they got the Su-35s.
    You owned yourself in the same sentence. I'm impressed. Twisted Evil

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    kvs
    kvs


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    Post  kvs Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:27 am

    Note how the NATzO fanbois trot out the F-35 as some epic win that will crush all opposition. The
    retardation is cringe dialed to max.

    NATzO is an idiot cult. NATzO planners expect to be doing conventional bombing runs over Russia with their
    "stealthy" B-2s. I guess there must be swarms of pigs flying in the icy pits of Hell.



    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:12 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    if all else fails, tactical nukes could be used against "the mainstay of the Russian strategic SAM arsenal." It could happen even more likely in a war with S-400 importers.
    Yeah right. Blow up the planetwide taboo on nuclear weapons and become a pariah even worse than NK and all over some missile battalion.
    if the EMP warheads r used, no big deal. Solar flares disrupted communications before.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If the Su-57 was that good, China would be buying them to complement the J-20s, like they got the Su-35s.
    You owned yourself in the same sentence. I'm impressed.
    not only they didn't buy them, but the MiG-31s offered years ago as well. So, to them the Su-35s r more valuable, & their J-31 will not be only for the PLAN.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:42 am

    no, they'll be stand-off but smaller & cheaper LRCMs. Many airworthy old C-130s in storage &/ near retirement could be converted to drones & carry ALCMs, & so their loss won't matter much.

    Such long range cruise missiles could be shot down with S-125s and would not be an enormous challenge really.

    The loss of C-130s might matter to their crews.

    The airfields they launched from would probably be nuked too.

    China can assemble a huge invasion force to swarm Taiwanese waters, so ships & subs won't be enough to deal with it.

    China does not have more ships than the US Navy has missile tubes... considering the shift in US focus they could move some of their fleets operating in different locations to the Pacific if there were any real expectations of a conflict.

    C-130s still have to operate from airfields so any airfields these C-130s are taking off from will likely be targeted by China with ballistic or cruise missile attack to stop the flow of subsonic cruise missiles.

    ; a good lesson learned doesn't come cheap.

    Pissing more money into the F-35 programme is the opposite of learned a lesson.... in actual fact, what it teaches US aircraft makers is that you can **** up, and make the worst dog of a plane the USAF has ever put in service and make it in such a way that congress wont cancel it for selfish political reasons rather than good reasons like the US needs such excellent fighters, and those dumb idiots at the Pentagon will still buy your bullshit and smile and say it tastes great.

    The more F-35s the west buys the closer the west will get to its economic end... that is how expensive they are.

    perhaps not by putting back into production, but by modernizing the existing airframes so they can control drones &

    But the current airframes are buggered... they were supposed to be replaced years ago and the extra work from all the wars the US keeps getting involved in means they are about to drop... modernising simply isn't a practical option... which is why they are spending big money putting the F-15 back into production... a plane... I remember a congressman saying that he was disgusted at the price of the F-15 and that never again will America ever spend 20 million dollars on a fighter plane.... HAHAHAHAHA... he was of course right... because they have never been that cheap since... but he meant it was too expensive for what it was... which led to the F-16 and F-18 programmes of lighter cheaper fighters... except they weren't cheaper at all.

    Take for example the S-400 - was initiated much later than the F-35, but entered service much faster and has already replaced the Cold war S-300s as the mainstay of the Russian strategic SAM arsenal.

    70 regiments in service, and five more on their way in 2022... and excellent value for money.

    The USA already has around 700 F 35 and in a decade it will be 1500.

    I hope they get 10,000 of the things... they are awful.

    FYI, they r all being upgraded; drones & CM will be targeting S-400s.

    Most of Americas drones are more expensive than their cruise missiles and if they want to launch drones and cruise missiles at Russia then they need to expect hypersonic manouvering missiles are coming back towards them.

    Russia is in a much better position to deal with drones and cruise missiles than all of HATO is ready to deal with hypersonic manouvering missiles from Russia.

    From the video in the link I posted, the F-22s would be upgraded & kept till 2060.

    They can pour more money into failed products all they please...

    Ask the Indians why they opted out of the Su-57 program.

    India was never part of the Su-57 programme. It was part of a programme to create a new heavy stealth fighter based on the Su-57, but when they realised all the changes and modifications they wanted made to the Su-57 like better stealth and two seats... they would have to pay for themselves... they suddenly decided to drop out of the programme and to wait for the Su-57 export model to become available to buy off the shelf... and save some money.

    even Finland ordered 64 F-35s for $9.4B , & Morocco Wants F-35 Fighters To ‘Ward Off’ Algeria That Plans To Acquire Russian Su-57 Jets.

    And lets see how wonderful these two countries think these planes are after 10 years of service... I am sure the French will be ready to sell them Rafales... they wont be cheaper to buy but will be much cheaper to operate... and they will own them... unlike American planes which despite purchase prices are actually rented.

    if all else fails, tactical nukes could be used against "the mainstay of the Russian strategic SAM arsenal." It could happen even more likely in a war with S-400 importers.

    The obvious problem there is that S-400 can shoot down ballistic tactical nuke delivery platforms, and crossing the nuclear threshold against S-400 users like China and India and Turkey and Russia means they can then respond in kind... considering US SAMs can't deal with Iranian BMs, what are their chances against BMs and other weapons from other countries?

    If the Su-57 was that good, China would be buying them to complement the J-20s, like they got the Su-35s.

    Who said they are not negotiating to buy a batch?


    Yeah right. Blow up the planetwide taboo on nuclear weapons and become a pariah even worse than NK and all over some missile battalion.

    Good job. Great plan

    They should include that in the advert to sell S-400s... so powerful that the US would resort to nuclear weapons in their presence... because all the other systems and weapons of that super power are impotent... Smile

    Note how the NATzO fanbois trot out the F-35 as some epic win that will crush all opposition. The
    retardation is cringe dialed to max.

    To be fair when they are making the 3,000th plane they might find time to get around to fixing a few of their problems... maybe...

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