Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+49
owais.usmani
Lennox
Kiko
Arrow
ALAMO
thegopnik
LMFS
Nomad5891
nemerson
Daniel_Admassu
Tsavo Lion
Scorpius
limb
lancelot
dino00
The-thing-next-door
Isos
Gazputin
chinggis
Hole
KiloGolf
kvs
Nibiru
BlackArrow
Big_Gazza
Project Canada
PapaDragon
GunshipDemocracy
AlfaT8
gaurav
miketheterrible
Morpheus Eberhardt
Book.
Austin
max steel
Svyatoslavich
sepheronx
flamming_python
George1
KomissarBojanchev
collegeboy16
Rmf
Viktor
Vann7
coolieno99
magnumcromagnon
mutantsushi
GarryB
Mike E
53 posters

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1782
    Points : 1784
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  thegopnik Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:11 am

    Considering that there was a huge argument about the light rocket design, and seeing that this news wasn't posted here either, maybe the thread will go back to argument stage of no no angara is enough, etc. https://tass.ru/kosmos/20526431

    Manturov: the start of flight tests of the super-heavy rocket is scheduled for 2033
    According to preliminary estimates, the amount of budget financing of the federal project will be about 600 billion rubles.

    MOSCOW, April 12. /TASS/. The release of a super-heavy rocket as part of a super-heavy-class space missile complex (STC) is planned for 2033, Deputy Prime Minister - Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov told reporters.

    "Work on the creation of a super-heavy-class space missile complex (STC) at the Vostochny cosmodrome is planned to be carried out within the framework of the federal project "Creation of a superheavy-class space missile complex" of the state program of the Russian Federation "Space activities of Russia." The implementation of the federal project was determined for the period 2025-2035 with the release of flight tests of the STC KRK in 2033 in accordance with the decree of the President of the Russian Federation," Manturov said.

    He noted that the passport of the federal project was approved by the decision of the governing board of the state program of the Russian Federation "Space activities of Russia" in 2023. "According to preliminary estimates, the amount of budget financing of the federal project will be about 600 billion rubles," - said Manturov.

    Earlier it was reported that the super-heavy rocket should ensure the removal of useful cargo weighing up to 90 tons to low Earth orbit and at least 20 tons to the circumlunar polar orbit. The creation of the STC KRK will expand the possibilities of implementing promising space programs, including the development of the moon and the exploration of deep space.


    Big_Gazza, PapaDragon and lancelot like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2860
    Points : 2858
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:03 am

    Well that is the thing. The only use for a superheavy is basically a Lunar or Mars manned space program. You can build a low orbit space station with a Proton equivalent rocket, which what Angara-A5 is, just fine.

    Even with a superheavy rocket making such missions won't be cost sustainable. So it will basically be a publicity stunt just like during the space race.

    Instead of spending money on superheavy rockets maybe Russia should figure out why is it that their space probes keep failing all the time and fix it. You won't be making long endurance manned space missions with failed electronics anyway.

    I would much rather they spend the money on building more satellites and probes, KVTK hydrogen upper stage, or getting the Zeus nuclear tug operational.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:49 pm

    We are arguing from ignorance.

    We have no idea what their future plans are... a super heavy rocket launching after 2033 is too late to help launch their new replacement space station, so we can assume it is needed for something else.

    Perhaps they have plans for shuttles and tugs that are going to be very very heavy... I rather doubt they would bother with such a thing for Moon missions and they are talking about moon bases with China before 2033 so it is clearly not intended for that.

    I suspect in a mission to Mars they might have a 60 plus ton nuclear tug that might form the core of a rather big space craft to fly to Mars.

    When you have nuclear energy and ion thrusters then going really really big means getting there faster by running the engines all the way there and all the way back.

    It would not be possible with chemical rockets but with nuclear power and ion thrusters then it should be no problem at all, but a big spaceship will be needed to carry people and all the resources they will require... the nuclear tugs will likely enter Mars orbit when it arrives and a space shuttle could be used for landing if they can find a large enough flat area. I would say using a hovercraft like undercarriage and a huge wing area could make landing rather more efficient that just using a rocket...

    The point is that the reactor tug can't be launched in pieces and assembled in space.... you need a super heavy rocket to get it up into low earth orbit and then its propulsion system should be able to accelerate it away to speeds previously unheard of.

    They might even be more ambitious... an unmanned mission to one of the large objects in the Oort cloud that have been discovered recently for instance... the speed with ion engines and a nuclear power supply that will be much more reliable than solar power could mean reaching enormous speeds and enormous distances... they could catch up to and recover one of the Pioneer space craft and take photos of it... and spray paint long live Russia on the side of it... Twisted Evil

    They could also use it to launch a mission to Jupiter and its more interesting moons and drop probes with a tether down into one of the oceans transmitting signals up to an orbiting space craft with a machine sitting on the ice surface and a sub attached to a tether melting and sinking through the ice transmitting data up to the craft in orbit...

    All this work on robots and drones could pay off big time.

    Note when sending a large space craft to Mars of course you send smaller rockets first to land on the surface and prospect for water and start to 3D print shelters on the planet ready for when people arrive to make things easier and as safe as possible... but there will always be risk.

    Big_Gazza, kvs, Hole and Scorpius like this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15465
    Points : 15602
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs Sat Jun 29, 2024 3:02 pm

    Everyone forgets radiation. A large spacecraft is essential on any Mars mission to install shielding from solar flare spew of high energy particles and X-rays. The idea that
    humans will travel to Mars in 1960s style tin cans is absurd. The alleged Moon astronauts avoided flares but still had to go through the Van Allen belts with relativistic
    electron fluxes. No 1/4 inch aluminum shell is going to stop such high energy electrons and the astronauts would have been bathed in the equivalent of beta radiation.
    The ISS and Mir orbits are in the belt quiet zones.

    https://earth-planets-space.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40623-021-01508-y

    10 MeV electrons can go through several inches of aluminum. The outer Van Allen belt region is the most energetic. Rapid traversal of this zone will limit exposure. But it is
    still exposure to radiation. Takes your chances with cancer.

    Flying for over six months to Mars, is a whole new ball game in terms of radiation exposure. The chance of being "fried" by solar flares becomes much higher. Even if you get
    lucky, that is not a sane exploration approach.

    Big_Gazza, Rodion_Romanovic and Kiko like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2860
    Points : 2858
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:25 pm

    Actually water is a pretty good radiation insulator. You basically can just carry water to the spaceship and pump it in. You can store it inside the walls.

    kvs likes this post

    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1782
    Points : 1784
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  thegopnik Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:12 am

    kvs wrote:Everyone forgets radiation.   A large spacecraft is essential on any Mars mission to install shielding from solar flare spew of high energy particles and X-rays.   The idea that
    humans will travel to Mars in 1960s style tin cans is absurd.   The alleged Moon astronauts avoided flares but still had to go through the Van Allen belts with relativistic
    electron fluxes.    No 1/4 inch aluminum shell is going to stop such high energy electrons and the astronauts would have been bathed in the equivalent of beta radiation.    
    The ISS and Mir orbits are in the belt quiet zones.

    https://earth-planets-space.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40623-021-01508-y

    10 MeV electrons can go through several inches of aluminum.   The outer Van Allen belt region is the most energetic.  Rapid traversal of this zone will limit exposure.   But it is
    still exposure to radiation.   Takes your chances with cancer.

    Flying for over six months to Mars, is a whole new ball game in terms of radiation exposure.   The chance of being "fried" by solar flares becomes much higher.   Even if you get
    lucky, that is not a sane exploration approach.  


    Sadly, I am still trying to find my old post here of Russia's breakthrough material that works several times better than lead with lighter weight against radiation source here somewhere. I still think a manned mars mission is possible with that 90 ton payload to LEO rocket design if Angara is sufficient for Zeus.
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2860
    Points : 2858
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  lancelot Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:04 am

    There are proposals to make Angara A7 versions with up to 50 tons to LEO. But currently Angara A5 can do like 25 tons to LEO.

    Angara A7 is supposed to have six side booster modules versus the four in Angara A5. It uses a wider diameter core.

    thegopnik likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4755
    Points : 4747
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jun 30, 2024 12:00 pm

    lancelot wrote:There are proposals to make Angara A7 versions with up to 50 tons to LEO. But currently Angara A5 can do like 25 tons to LEO.

    Angara A7 is supposed to have six side booster modules versus the four in Angara A5. It uses a wider diameter core.

    A-5V with hydrolox u/s will put 38T into LEO. Not sure that A-7 makes much sense if Russia proceeds with SHLV familily based on Soyuz-5 cores.

    kvs likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 30, 2024 5:12 pm

    Actually water is a pretty good radiation insulator. You basically can just carry water to the spaceship and pump it in. You can store it inside the walls.

    I remember one scifi writer suggesting that the outer surface of a space craft is where the water for the mission is to be carried in frozen form and liquid form. It can be used for heated to keep propulsion systems cool, and for cooling like freezing food stores etc etc.

    When radiation levels get high you can have parts of the spacecraft shielded by these water tanks/ice blocks and the crew can take shelter during the danger periods...

    Remember with a nuclear reactor on board you can separate the hydrogen and the oxygen which could be used for rocket fuel... or even filling balloons for exploring the atmosphere of the planet.

    kvs likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 34 Empty Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:25 am