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    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:06 am

    Rmf wrote:ukraine was producing tanks and integration but engines were made in russia. never the less its moot point , when russia has rd-191 , my mistake not rd-192. its 1,92 MegaNewtn thrust which is compact and derivative of rd-171 itself. it can fit . it has less weight 4 combined then rd-171. and more slightly thrust which they want. that way you have mass production what they wanted all along....

    see how stupid soyuz launch pad is in vostochny now>? billions blown for nothing.... instead angara and sunkar launch pads should have been built.you cant built launch pad for angara + sunkar all in 1. sunkar is 4 times larger.
    sunkar should be built in 4 years max , and launch pad too. they have zenit plans,engines, manufacture big tanks , everything... 7 years and with more delays it will probably be 10 years= massive coruption and siphoning of scarse resourses.

    also look how they improved sunkar and rectify flaws from zenit , increase in fuel (and weight) of 9% but payload increase in 25%.

    You are too harsh on Soyuz.  There will always be medium payloads (eg 8T to LEO) for which Angara-1.2/Soyuz 2-1V is inadequate and A-3 is overkill, so Soyuz will keep its current niche.  The manufacturing infrastructure exists and is wholly paid for, and a vast experience base exists for building and operating these vehicles and their pads.  It's better to leverage that legacy and introduce incremental evolutionary improvements than to simply throw it all away (*).  Modern Soyuz 2b is a totally different beast to the original Soyuz 11A511 launcher.

    (*) BTW that's what the US does, mainly because their aerospace industry is all private and competitors wish to advance their own products over those of their competitors, and couldn't care less about retaining national capabiities which they themselves don't own).

    Likewise, Vostochny is not a waste of billions, as much of the cost is for the common infrastruture that will be used by future non-Soyuz vehicles.  Facilities like vehicle & payload testing and integration areas, fuel storage and handling systems, communications and radar facilities, accomodation blocks and administration buildings, roads and airport etc etc.  The cost of the Soyuz pad is only a small component of the 1st stage of the Cosmodrome, and despite the blabberings of Atlanticist fuckwitz like A.Zak, a Soyuz pad was a necessary first step. Angara wasn't ready when Vostochny was conceived, and there was zero chance that either Proton or Zenit facilities would be replicated, let alone near-obselete boosters such as Kosmos or Tsyklon. Now the Cosmodrome is built, has an active launcher available, and can now be expanded and its tempo of operations increased as reliance on Baikonour is wound down.

    Massive corruption?  Oh, don't start with that BS...  Only a fool actually believes that any signficant sum has been diverted by corrupt practises, and what funds are stolen are due ENTIRELY to criminal behaviour by the privately owned sub-contractors that Spetstroi must use on a project of this scale. The Russian gov seems to have been rather ruthless in punishing transgressors (ie thieves), so that is a good sign. Putins team has made huge strides in tackling corruption, but our 5th-column media pressitutes refuse to admit this in order to protect the "Russia is corrupt" narrative. There are still problems (as the recent arrest of the 2nd in charge of the governments anti-corruption watchdog attests to) but progress is being made, and corrupt gov officials will increasingly become an endangered species.

    Agreed that Sunkar (or whatever it gets called) needs to be a substantial improvement on Cold-War era Zenit. So far, the publically-available specs look promising!  russia
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:38 am

    Rmf wrote:Ofcourse no point in talking without some graphycs so people know what is about and have a perspective.
    in the picture is angara-a5 with kvtk hydrogen upper stage ,stacked large sunkar launcher proposal and single sunkar rocket .... see how kvtk fits sunkar launcher much better.
    now some rough calculations....
    sunkar using only oxygen+kerosine in all stages  -80+ tons to LEO.
    sunkar launcher but with `10% increase in engine power to rd-171 and larger kerosine third stage - 105tonns .
    sunkar using  hydrogen 3rd  stage  (3rd stage would be larger then in picture , larger then angaras)--110t.
    sunkar with 10% increase in engine power of rd-171 , and even larger hydrogen 3rd stage - 150t.

    so very good flexibility,.... this thing sets you to moon in 1 shot.... angara can never match this.

    i think building a sunkar launch pad in kazahstan although its using their money for launch pad is bad idea... it should be built in russia - vostochny.
    zenith was built in mind to replace soyuz by the end of 90s if ussr still existed , they still fly it and blow money on that pit in vostochny with no real reason, nore mission.
    thats got to stop. if presidential decree is needed to brake lobbies and send soyuz and proton to history finally and focus on these 2 launchers and single engine type- exclusively.  (and hydrogen for smaller third stages) so be it , putin has to be decicive and firm.

    Some good points here, and I think this architecture is looking like an optimum development path for a flexible and sustainable launch capability. Modular Angara for light-to-heavy payloads up to 25T (with Soyuz derivatives used for medium mass ~8T to LEO) and Sunkar/Feniks stacks used between 17T and 80-100T or more. Modularity is the key, especially if modules can be recovered in such a way as to promote effective re-use (even if it is only intended to allow stripdown of recovered blocks rather than wholesale re-use).

    Again, I don't agree with scrapping Soyuz. Throwing away a perfectly good light-medium launcher is lunacy, especially as many military payloads fit its lift capacity and Plesetsk has an abundance of pads and ground infrastructure. In fact, I'd keep the Soyuz manned ferry in production well beyond any introduction of PPTS/Federation as its cheap & reliable, the manufacturing infrastructure is paid for and the workforce is trained. I'd keep it going as a backup delivery system for passengers and cargo, and also offer it for sale (c/w tech transfer) to developing nations who want their own national manned space capabilities but don't want to spend a fortune to re-invent the wheel.

    Agree 100% on Kazakhstan. If the Kazakh goverment wants to help fund development that is fine, but they can pay for the mods to the exisitng pad(s). Russia needs infrastructure in Russia, and this is not negotiable.

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    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 9 Empty According to Atlantic-Integrationist clown Anatoly Zak, Russia is looking at a Zenit replacement in the 17T to LEO category

    Post  Rmf on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:10 pm

    angara -a3 short version , without urm-2 as third stage,  but just core and satelite own propulsion had about 11t to LEO. anyway as i posted looong ago ,angara is bit oversized.
    URM-1 is 141t , 4 times larger URM should be 560t ,  sunkar 1st stage  is 430t.
    at least 10% reduction and using NK-331 should have been a choise.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:05 pm

    Russia’s Phoenix carrier rocket not intended for manned flights

    More:
    http://tass.com/science/903299
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    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:20 am

    MOSCOW, November 28. /TASS/. Russia is about to launch a project for building a new super-heavy space rocket that will make it possible to create a research station on the Moon someday, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin while addressing an audience at the space rocket corporation Energiya.
    More:
    http://tass.com/science/915040


    MOSCOW, November 28. /TASS/. Russia’s new generation cargo spacecraft, due to replace the current Progress MS family, is scheduled to begin flights to the International Space State ISS after 2020, the designer of all of Russia’s spacecraft, Energia Corporation, has told TASS.

    More:
    http://tass.com/science/915098
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:40 am

    Article by TASS where they appear to confirm our belief that Fenix/Phoenix will be the core module for a future Russian SHLV:

    Quoting Aleksandr Ivanov, the first deputy CEO of Roscosmos:

    "We are not going to make a super-heavy rocket right away, though, because nobody needs it for the time being. We’ve opted for a step-by-step solution. First we’ll make a medium class rocket - called Feniks (Phoenix).
    Feniks has been conceived as the first stage of a super-heavy rocket. The Angara rocket’s hydrogen-fueled stage will be used as the third stage. No decision regarding the second stage has been made yet, Ivanov said.


    They also state that the 3rd stage will be the KVTK (or a development of it), currently under development for later models of the A5.

    It's a long way off (first SHLV flight after 2030) but its a logical and efficient plan and makes good leverage of commonality.

    For full report http://tass.com/science/915241
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    Post  Rmf on Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:58 pm

    and here is the concept how it would work , with angara and phoenix URM
    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 9 32383_original

    23 billion for heavy launcher that is overblown crap , unbelivable expencive it seems something is very wrong with russian space manufacturers. this is impossible task for their budget.
    as it is, its a complete waste.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:10 pm

    Instead of being a pissy pansy, why don't we wait for actual figures when the device is being made? Your clearly not that slow, so it should be known to you by now that projected /= reality.

    So, lets wait. If you want to continue your childish hissy fit, then feel free. Will only make you look retarded.
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    Post  Guest on Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:03 pm

    ""As a result of an abnormal situation, the loss of the Progress cargo ship took place at an altitude of 190 kilometers above the deserted mountainous area in Tuva, most of the fragments burned up in the atmosphere as a result of an abnormal situation," Roscosmos press service said."

    Source: https://sputniknews.com/science/201612011048070489-roscosmos-progress-burns/
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:20 pm

    According to Anatloy Zak, the SHLV is back on the menu, and current concept is indeed based on a clustered Sunkars/Phoenix stack.  

    At the end of 2016 -- the beginning of 2017, RKK Energia formulated a new design for a super-heavy rocket for Russia's prospective lunar-exploration program. The new architecture, approaching NASA's Space Launch System, SLS, in size and payload, had two possible variations of the upper stage.

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 9 Energia5v_vr_info_1
    Energia-5VR and Energia-5V rockets as of 2016. Copyright © 2017 Anatoly Zak

    The RD-171-based launcher built of standard modules with a diameter of 4.1 meters could carry between 80 and 100 tons of payload and after additional upgrades, it could lift up to 150 tons.

    By the middle of 2016, the Russian scenario for lunar expeditions based on four Angara-5V rockets was deemed too risky and unreliable. Instead, Russia's strategic plans for human exploration of deep space defaulted back to a much larger super-heavy rocket.

    The path to the development of a super-heavy launcher was built into the 2016-2025 Federal Space Program, and it was apparently endorsed with a government document signed by the Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev. By the end of 2016, there were some rumors inside the industry that the Russian president Vladimir Putin would officially endorse the costly project as early as January 2017.

    By that time, the architecture of the super-rocket favored by RKK Energia featured a five-booster first stage powered by RD-171MV engines. The boosters themselves would derive from the Feniks and Sunkar projects, which aim to build a medium-class rocket with a diameter of 4.1 meters. If the Sunkar-type rocket had ever been built, it would be only logical to re-tailor the path to a super-rocket utilizing the prospective new booster as a stepping stone.

    The latest designs essentially superseded the Energia-5K and Energia-5KV concepts proposed by RKK Energia for the role of the super-heavy launcher in 2013 and 2014.

    With the architecture of the first-stage boosters essentially determined by the Sunkar/Feniks project, engineers at RKK Energia tried to tackle the design of the upper stages. By the beginning of 2017, they formulated two different upper stage arrangements which could support a two-launch scenario of a lunar expedition.

    The first configuration, known as Energia-5V, featured a two-stage space tug propelled by liquid hydrogen. The second configuration, designated Energia-5VR, had a larger single upper stage using the same propellant. Both rockets, would be topped with an upper composite consisting of the MOB-DM space tug responsible for deep-space maneuvers and the payload. In turn, the payload could include the PTK Federatsiya crew vehicle, a lunar lander, or a lunar cargo vehicle. In the two-launch lunar expedition scenario, the spacecraft would be represented by the PTK Federatsiya capsule carrying the crew, while the second rocket would have a lunar lander as its payload. The manned PTK vehicle would link up with the lunar lander in lunar orbit.

    The Energia-5VR architecture offered obvious advantages over the Energia-5V: namely, it was shorter and lighter, while carrying practically the same cargo. Moreover, because it consisted of only three stages, rather than the four stages making up the 5V variant, the 5R version would likely be cheaper and more reliable. During a lunar mission, the third stage of Energia-5R would fire twice: first to accelerate the payload to nearly orbital velocity and then to deliver it into a highly elliptical orbit with an apogee of 35,000 kilometers. Once there, the crew of the PTK spacecraft could check all onboard systems and, if everything had gone according to plan, the spacecraft would fire its MOB-DM space tug to enter an Earth-escape trajectory toward the Moon.


    In contrast, Energia-5V would use its third stage to enter an initial parking orbit and after its separation, the fourth stage would accelerate its payload on an Earth-escape trajectory.

    More details at http://www.russianspaceweb.com/energia5v.html

    Interesting that the Atlanticist twerp is saying this, and apparently without his usual thick layers of pessimistic dismissal....
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:01 pm

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 9 10973_original

    Supposedly the Angara 5B will fly only after 2027 and the Energiya heavy launcher around 2035:

    http://tass.ru/kosmos/4143152

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    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 9 Empty Supposedly the Angara 5B will fly only after 2027 and the Energiya heavy launcher around 2035:

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:49 pm

    kvs wrote:.............

    Supposedly the Angara 5B will fly only after 2027 and the Energiya heavy launcher around 2035:

    http://tass.ru/kosmos/4143152


    Both those rockets are for deep-space missions so it's not surprising. Fenix\Angara combo is supposed to be used as super heavy rocket.

    I'll wait for official English version of this article. There seems to be some interesting info there but I don't want to do machine translation tea leafs reading.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:08 am

    Russia to start developing new generation carrier rocket

    The Sunkar is a new generation medium-class carrier rocket for the Baiterek space rocket center, which Russia and Kazakhstan are building at the Baikonur spaceport

    MOSCOW, April 19. /TASS/. The development of Russia’s new generation carrier rocket Sunkar for the Baiterek compound at the Baikonur spaceport in Kazakhstan is expected to start in 2018, according to government materials released on Wednesday.

    "Partners from Kazakhstan have reached an agreement on establishing the Baiterek compound at the Baikonur space center with the use of the new Russian advanced carrier rocket whose development is planned in 2018," according to the government materials prepared for an annual report.

    It was reported earlier that the Chemical Automatics Design Bureau, part of Russia’s Energomash Research and Production Association, had started developing a new engine for the Sunkar rocket. The power plant will be designed for oxygen-kerosene fuel components, using the engine 14D23, which is produced in Voronezh and features a record-high specific impulse of thrust among all oxygen-kerosene rocket engines in the world. The enterprise faces the task of making the engine more efficient, simpler in design, cheaper and competitive on the market.

    The Sunkar is a new generation medium-class carrier rocket for the Baiterek space rocket center, which Russia and Kazakhstan are building at the Baikonur spaceport. It will be similar to a carrier rocket for the Sea Launch project. The rocket’s first stage is also planned for use in a carrier rocket being developed for launches from the Vostochny spaceport in the Russian Far East as part of the Feniks R&D work. The Feniks will eventually become the basis for Russia’s super-heavy carrier rocket.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/942116
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    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:20 pm

    Russia’s Phoenix rocket project to cut space launch costs by 20%

    "This project will ensure competitive advantages and allow cutting the launch cost from the current $60-70 million to $55 million," the head of Russia's Roscosmos said

    ST. PETERSBURG, June 1. /TASS/. The implementation of the Phoenix space rocket project will reduce the cost of a launch from $70 million to $55 million, Russia’s State Space Corporation Roscosmos Head Igor Komarov said on Thursday.

    "This project will ensure competitive advantages and allow cutting the launch cost from the current $60-70 million to $55 million," the Roscosmos head said at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

    Russia’s federal space program for 2016-2025 stipulates developing a new-generation medium-class space rocket complex (the Phoenix R&D work) from 2018 to 2025. Russia intends to spend almost 30 billion rubles ($530 million) on developing a new carrier rocket. The project’s budget financing will begin in 2018.

    The heads of the Russian rocket and space industry earlier spoke about the possibility of reducing the timeframe of the rocket’s development from five to four years. This timeframe is expected to be cut through the development of Russia’s available groundwork for the Zenit carrier rocket (Russia produces up to 85% of the components of the rocket that was assembled in Ukraine).

    Russia intends to use the Zenit rocket launch pad at the Baikonur spaceport in Kazakhstan to accelerate flight tests. Kazakhstan intends to modernize this launch pad as part of the Baiterek project to make it suitable for the new Russian carrier rocket. The rocket version for the Baikonur cosmodrome will be launched under the name of Sunkar (Falcon). The flight tests of the carrier rocket’s sea version unified with the Soyuz-5 and the Sunkar are expected to be held from the Sea Launch platform.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/948898
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:39 pm

    Proton returns to flight

    A Russian heavy-lift Proton-M rocket has been launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome, taking an American communication satellite into space. This is Roscosmos’ first Proton-M launch this year.
    The rocket, which carries the US communications satellite Echostar-21, lifted off Baikonur at the appointed time on Thursday morning, Roscosmos said in a statement.

    https://www.rt.com/news/391326-proton-satellite-launch-baikonur/
    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 9 5938ffbcc3618850118b45d1

    Its good to see the old girl back up and flying! russia russia russia russia russia russia
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    Post  Austin on Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:06 pm

    ILS‏ @ILSLaunch 5m5 minutes ago

    #EchoStarXXI Spacecraft Separation!


    Congratulations to ILS and Proton-M launcher

    https://twitter.com/ILSLaunch
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:36 am

    Russian super-heavy carrier rocket may have lightweight version

    It was earlier stated that the start of the new super-rocket’s design might be determined in the coming weeks and would last one and a half or two years

    MOSCOW, July 6. /TASS/. The first flight model of the new Russian super-heavy carrier rocket will be lightweight due to the use of three, instead of five, rocket modules at the first and second stages, a source in the space rocket industry told TASS on Thursday.

    Read also
    Putin sets task of accelerating work on super-heavy rocket

    "In order to galvanize work on the super-heavy carrier rocket and save costs at the same time, it is planned to test the first model in 2028, using the lightweight version of the rocket," he said.

    As he put it, the rocket was named "Super-Heavy Complex-3" or "Energiya-3" ("Energy-3"), the figures standing for the number of rocket modules at the first and second stages that will be, in fact, the Soyuz-5 medium-lift rockets.

    Unlike the Energiya-5 version, capable of lifting about 100 tonnes (the payload needed for a rocket to be called super heavy-lift), its lightweight version will be capable of lifting about 68 to 72 tonnes into space (if the third stage is hydrogen-fueled) and will be a heavy-lift rocket.

    It was earlier stated that the start of the new super-rocket’s design might be determined in the coming weeks and would last one and a half or two years. During this time, designers will have to determine the rocket design, its specifications and set out the tasks it may be used for. The document also states the head organization and cooperation on the rocket design.

    The Roscosmos state corporation declined to comment on this information.

    A super-heavy carrier rocket

    The first launch of the super-heavy carrier rocket was earlier reported for 2028, whereas its launch pad at the Vostochny Cosmodrome should be ready by 2027. The construction of the launch infrastructure will start after the launch pad for the Angara rocket is complete. As a source in the rocket and space industry said, the launch pad for the super-heavy rocket will be built using the principles implemented for the Energiya carrier rocket at the Baikonur Cosmodrome (site No. 250).

    It will be the Universal Stand-Start Complex capable of launching both the Soyuz-5 medium-lift carrier rockets and groups of rockets which may consist of carriers with different payload, including the super-heavy rocket.

    In 2016, Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation CEO Vladimir Solntsev presented at a Moscow conference his project of the Energiya-5V super-heavy carrier rocket designed for a manned lunar mission. As he put it, the liquid-hydrogen upper stage for the Angara-A5V carrier will be used in the super-heavy rocket’s design along with the first and second stages of the advanced Soyuz-5 medium-lift rocket.

    The source told TASS later that Energiya had roughly designed two versions of rockets to be built: the Energiya-5V-PTK (liftoff mass of 2,368 tonnes) and the Energyia-5VR-PTK (liftoff mass of 2,346 tonnes).

    Both versions are capable of delivering about 100 tonnes of payload into low-earth orbit and 20.5 tonnes to lunar orbit - the estimated mass of the lunar version of the Federatsiya spacecraft. A lunar take-off and landing module can be mounted on a carrier rocket instead of a spacecraft. The Block DM space tug will be used to deliver the Federatsiya spacecraft or a lunar take-off and landing module to the Moon.

    According to Roscosmos, the construction of the super-heavy rocket and its infrastructure at the Vostochny Cosmodrome will cost 1.5 trillion rubles ($25 billion). The corporation earlier stated that there was no need to urge the construction of the super-heavy carrier rocket as no payloads were available for it.

    According to the Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation, the development of the new Russian super-heavy carrier rocket will be 1.5 times cheaper than the re-production of the Soviet-era Energiya carrier.

    The construction of the Energiya rocket and the Buran space shuttle, which were annually financed 1.3 bln rubles ($2.2 mln) by 1985, became the most ambitious program in the history of the domestic space rocket production. The Energiya was first launched on May 15, 1987 from the Baikonur Cosmodrome. It became the first Soviet rocket that used hydrogen fuel at the upper stage, as well as the most powerful domestic rocket.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/955043
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:45 pm

    Does not sound like Soyuz-5 is related to Energyia-3 modules.

    I wonder why the keep on aiming for dead throw weight to the Moon instead of using active propulsion. Park the "ship" in LEO and
    then use nuclear-ion drive to get to the Moon.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:09 pm

    kvs wrote:Does not sound like Soyuz-5 is related to Energyia-3 modules.

    I wonder why the keep on aiming for dead throw weight to the Moon instead of using active propulsion.    Park the "ship" in LEO and
    then use nuclear-ion drive to get to the Moon.  

    Moon is too close for ion propulsion to be effective. By the time it accelerates​ standard ship will be landing back to Earth. It has to be done with chemical rockets no going around it.

    It becomes effective for longer distances like Mars and beyond.


    Important part infrastructure wise:

    ...The first launch of the super-heavy carrier rocket was earlier reported for 2028, whereas its launch pad at the Vostochny Cosmodrome should be ready by 2027. The construction of the launch infrastructure will start after the launch pad for the Angara rocket is complete. As a source in the rocket and space industry said, the launch pad for the super-heavy rocket will be built using the principles implemented for the Energiya carrier rocket at the Baikonur Cosmodrome (site No. 250).

    It will be the Universal Stand-Start Complex capable of launching both the Soyuz-5 medium-lift carrier rockets and groups of rockets which may consist of carriers with different payload, including the super-heavy rocket....
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:30 pm

    Most people's view of ion propulsion is not relevant for nuclear reactor powered ion propulsion. This is
    the engine that will make travel to Mars in under a month possible instead of six months. So, no, it is
    not too slow for the Moon.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:14 am

    kvs wrote:Most people's view of ion propulsion is not relevant for nuclear reactor powered ion propulsion.   This is
    the engine that will make travel to Mars in under a month possible instead of six months.   So, no, it is
    not too slow for the Moon.

    Correct but ion engine takes long time to accelerate. Good for long distances but not for short ones.
    gaurav
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    Post  gaurav on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:48 am

    kvs wrote:I wonder why the keep on aiming for dead throw weight to the Moon instead of using active propulsion.

    Park the "ship" in LEO and
    then use nuclear-ion drive to get to the Moon.


    They are not parking the ship . Parking the ship may be done by other government U.S China.

    The new space hardware fpr man related "expeditions "will be built in Russia . It will save costs and also cut out several industries as only industries for rocket , space ship and moon landing hardware will be needed.

    U.S Russ and China are creating some complication in their daily
    President level talks. Russ wants to go all alone in this project . Russ will be going alone along with may be Chinese mann rated space hardware.

    Last year it was only civilian aircraft IL-96 or Irkut .But these days My god they are runnng this rocket news all over the place.
    No stopping this Energia rocket news.It is partly to do with Russian led development of Amur and China border regions and probaly
    developing several new industry cities RUssia China belt region.


    There is definite some churning going on.

    Have yu ever heard 69 ton  payload light weight rocket. Crazy totally crazy.They are trying to save costs and built super rocket science right on the border with China.

    Well lets see what more we will have . I bet atleast a 2 3 news articles on this rocket every month from now on
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:45 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    kvs wrote:Most people's view of ion propulsion is not relevant for nuclear reactor powered ion propulsion.   This is
    the engine that will make travel to Mars in under a month possible instead of six months.   So, no, it is
    not too slow for the Moon.

    Correct but ion engine takes long time to accelerate. Good for long distances but not for short ones.

    The Devil is in the details. In principle one could use a single atom to produce enough thrust to go to Jupiter in one shot if one
    could accelerate this atom to within some necessary delta of the speed of light. The moral of this story is that the nuclear
    power plant allows much more energy in the ions and hence much more thrust. Thus your generalization is not valid and based
    on existing low power ion engines.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:50 pm

    gaurav wrote:
    kvs wrote:I wonder why the keep on aiming for dead throw weight to the Moon instead of using active propulsion.

    Park the "ship" in LEO and
    then use nuclear-ion drive to get to the Moon.


    They are not parking the ship . Parking the ship may be done by other government U.S China.

    It does not sound like you are seeing my point. I am talking about launching to LEO a craft that can reach
    the Moon from LEO orbit. This saves on the need for expensive large rockets to lob a dead weight to the
    Moon from the Earth's surface. The key here is that the Moon spacecraft is powered by a nuclear ion engine
    which is vastly more efficient than the burning through 2200 tons of fuel.

    All longer range missions (e.g. to Mars) will have to follow the model I am suggesting anyway. Why not develop
    the technology earlier to make it more mature and robust by the 2040s. All these super-conservative, minimalist
    innovation approaches are BS. We are basically at the level of the 1960s today.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:13 pm


    I don't see why aiming for larger payload should be criticized

    By using larger components you can build better and larger vessels in orbit down the road

    Just because they are building larger rocket does not mean they are abandoning multi stage approach only this time they will just go with 2 launches instead of 6

    Using ship twice the size is definitely an advantage

    As for ion engine, once it's developed they will use it, in the meantime no need to wait, use what's available

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