PAK DP prospective long-range interceptor

You dont get 1000 Km range vs fighter with just sub meter aperture of typical fighter radar.

Who is talking about a fighter?

For all we know it could be an Tu-22M3M sized aircraft as an interceptor... hell it could even be a Tu-160P sized aircraft for all we know...

And who says it will have a nose mounted radar... they might use an antenna on the leading edge of the wing with a very sharp sweep back of 55-75 degrees... four or five aircraft with antenna on both wing leading edges could be linked together flying 300km apart scanning an area 2,000km across out to thousands of kms depth at a time from the lower limits of space down to the grass tips...

The new interceptor might look more like the T-4MS... which is often shown as the replacement for the Tu-160, when it fact the Tu-160 design was chosen over it for the strategic bomber role.

Well with the Tu-160 back in production they now have the ability to wield enormous components of Titanium together to form complex structures...

GarryB wrote:

Who is talking about a fighter?

For all we know it could be an Tu-22M3M sized aircraft as an interceptor... hell it could even be a Tu-160P sized aircraft for all we know...

And who says it will have a nose mounted radar... they might use an antenna on the leading edge of the wing with a very sharp sweep back of 55-75 degrees... four or five aircraft with antenna on both wing leading edges could be linked together flying 300km apart scanning an area 2,000km across out to thousands of kms depth at a time from the lower limits of space down to the grass tips...

The new interceptor might look more like the T-4MS... which is often shown as the replacement for the Tu-160, when it fact the Tu-160 design was chosen over it for the strategic bomber role.

Well with the Tu-160 back in production they now have the ability to wield enormous components of Titanium together to form complex structures...

and it can also be no bigger than MiG-31.

Well, i wonder what fighter maker not putting radar on nose these days ? That easily the largest, most benign and place where you can easily integrate a radar.

Leading edge, may offer space, but i wonder if adequate resolution, particulary elevation can be provided. and low count of elements on vertical part of the radar may introduce kinda big sidelobe, which one may not want. One can of course operate on higher frequency but weather could be a problem.

Stealthflanker wrote:

Well, i wonder what fighter maker not putting radar on nose these days ? That easily the largest, most benign and place where you can easily integrate a radar.

Leading edge, may offer space, but i wonder if adequate resolution, particulary elevation can be provided. and low count of elements on vertical part of the radar may introduce kinda big sidelobe, which one may not want.  One can of course operate on higher frequency but weather could be a problem.  

Su-57 has according to Tikhomirov chief designer AESA antennas "all over the fighter"

and it can also be no bigger than MiG-31.

What do you base this upon?

They have had a range of "interceptors" in the past from Su-9/11 and Su-15s, to Tu-128 Fiddlers... why do you think they can only have a MiG-25/31 sized aircraft?

Well, i wonder what fighter maker not putting radar on nose these days ? That easily the largest, most benign and place where you can easily integrate a radar.

But an interceptor the size of the Tu-128 Fiddler, or indeed the Tu-22M3M can have a nose mounted radar much bigger than that fitted to any fighter if they wanted.

More exotic design shapes could allow a wide range of antenna sizes... a B-2 like design with a greater sweep angle could have the leading edge of its LERXs fitted with a radar... at a 60-70 degree angle sweep back the two antenna arrays could cover most of the front and much of the side angles for radar scanning for targets... the only gap would be a narrow area of the tail directly back where the front facing radars cannot scan.

Leading edge, may offer space, but i wonder if adequate resolution, particulary elevation can be provided. and low count of elements on vertical part of the radar may introduce kinda big sidelobe, which one may not want. One can of course operate on higher frequency but weather could be a problem.

Depends how far back from the leading edge you set the array as to its vertical depth limits... the antenna elements could be combined with fuel storage... they could be immersed in fuel to encourage cooling of the array elements... those fuel tanks left until the return to base and landing cycle of the operation of the aircraft. Cycling fuel between tanks could be used to keep average fuel temperatures below danger areas... at mach 4.3 such fuel temperature management would be a useful thing anyway... pump fuel through the leading edges just before it goes into the engines to improve combustion and to remove heat from hot areas of the fuselage...

Su-57 has according to Tikhomirov chief designer AESA antennas "all over the fighter"

Indeed, they have often spoken about surface mounted AESA antennas that can be placed all over an airframe... embedding it inside the fuselage with ceramic material structure outside of it forming the external surface of the aircraft that is both resistant to heat but also radar transparent makes a lot of sense...

But some source reported that this only photo consists of Russian disinformation campaign or a joke of Russian military sector because the model in the photo “accidentally” released is a 1/72 Italeri Mig-37 “Ferret” or a 1/48 Testors Mig-37 plastic model.

Interesting, but the wing sweep angle on the visible model is not the same that of the plastic kit...

Interesting, but the wing sweep angle on the visible model is not the same that of the plastic kit... wrote:

So what can it be?

The concept of a promising interceptor fighter PAK DP will develop in two years

Moscow. January 6. INTERFAX-AVN - Research and development to create the concept of a promising long-range interception aircraft (PAK DP) will take about two years, a source in the aviation industry told Interfax.

"[left]NIRovskaya work on the concept of the PAK DP will take about two years," - said the agency interlocutor.
He noted that during this time the concept of the combat use of the PAK DP will be worked out and agreed upon with the military, and the appearance and characteristics of the new aircraft will be approved.
According to the source, the research will be carried out with the leading role of the MiG corporation, but with the participation of other design bureaus in the KLA circuit.
On August 24, 2018, UAC President Yury Slusar said in an interview with Interfax that the promising interceptor fighter PAK DP would replace the MiG-31 around 2030.
"It should be logically synchronized with the completion of the planned resource of the MiG-31. By this time, we need to develop a new machine - that is, we are talking about the turn of 2030," Y. Slusar said, answering the question about the possible timing of the creation of the PAK DP.
He explained that the characteristics of the PAK DP will be determined in the course of research work depending on the requirements of the customer: "Everything will depend on the tasks. They will say to fly into space - we will fly into space," Y. Slyusar said.
Earlier it was reported that a promising long-range intercept aviation system should replace the fighter-interceptor MiG-31, adopted in 1981.
The MiG-31 is a two-seat, supersonic all-weather long-range interceptor fighter. It is able to reach speeds of more than 2 max (speeds of sound) and is designed to intercept and destroy air targets at extremely small, small, medium and high altitudes, in simple and complex meteorological conditions.
In July 2017, the Director General of RSK MiG Ilya Tarasenko told reporters that the company is proactively developing the concept of the PAK DP (MiG-41), but soon expects to conclude a contract with the Russian Defense Ministry for research and development (R & D).
He noted that "the life cycle of the MiG-31 is coming to an end in the next ten years, respectively, it needs a replacement."
In August, during the Army 2017 forum, the director general of RSK MiG announced his readiness to begin deliveries of a new interceptor aircraft in the mid 2020s. "Subject to the appearance of an order from the Ministry of Defense, we will begin the full development and delivery of this aircraft in the mid-2020s," said I. Tarasenko.
He stressed that this would be "a completely new technological aircraft," which, among other things, will be able to perform tasks in space.

http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=499121

So what can it be?

It is in the office of someone running an aircraft company... it could be one of a number of thousands of models of the various prototypes of aircraft both manned and unmanned that might have taken his personal fancy... for all we know it might be a test prototype from the 1950s that never made it into production and service... if you go into the office of a high up official at Boeing and see a model of the Star Trek Enterprise do you immediately think they have made some real ones?

The concept of a promising interceptor fighter PAK DP will develop in two years

If they are designing it to enter service in 2030 then they will need to be rather ambitious with their specs because right now mach 4.2 sounds like a fast plane but in ten years time with all these hypersonic weapons... they might want more speed from their interceptors...

GarryB wrote:

The concept of a promising interceptor fighter PAK DP will develop in two years

If they are designing it to enter service in 2030 then they will need to be rather ambitious with their specs because right now mach 4.2 sounds like a fast plane but in ten years time with all these hypersonic weapons... they might want more speed from their interceptors...

AFAIK Borisov has sent MiG with first proposal (2017) to, as Russians say, 3 letters... if you dont get it check what means : Иди на хуй!. Borisov said that first proposal was a "dusted off" old Soviet project (IMHO MiG-3.11/3.01) and MoD wants new stuff.

GarryB wrote:

The concept of a promising interceptor fighter PAK DP will develop in two years

If they are designing it to enter service in 2030 then they will need to be rather ambitious with their specs because right now mach 4.2 sounds like a fast plane but in ten years time with all these hypersonic weapons... they might want more speed from their interceptors...

Speed is relevant for reaching destination in time, not for dodging missiles.

4.2 should be enough and even if it isn't they won't have too much problems increasing it because we know from deployment of Avangard that biggest problem for high​ speed (heat resistant materials) have already been solved.

All that's left is new engines but that won't be a problem since they can do it even just by upgrading engines from MiG-31 (those have loads more potential in them left)

And there is always option of creating new ones.

PapaDragon wrote:

4.2 should be enough and even if it isn't they won't have too much problems increasing it because we know from deployment of Avangard that biggest problem for high​ speed (heat resistant materials) have already been solved.

All that's left is new engines but that won't be a problem since they can do it even just by upgrading engines from MiG-31 (those have loads more potential in them left)

And there is always option of creating new ones.

unlikely it is feasible to make pure turbojet which can sustain 4Ma+ , more likely also for fuel / heat efficient they use a hybrid engine.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

4.2 should be enough and even if it isn't they won't have too much problems increasing it because we know from deployment of Avangard that biggest problem for high​ speed (heat resistant materials) have already been solved.

All that's left is new engines but that won't be a problem since they can do it even just by upgrading engines from MiG-31 (those have loads more potential in them left)

And there is always option of creating new ones.

unlikely it is feasible to make pure turbojet which can sustain 4Ma+ , more likely also for fuel / heat efficient they use a hybrid engine.


https://www.darpa.mil/ddm_gallery/AFREConceptv3a.png

That works too, even better

Wait until the next speech of VVP. I got two words for you: warp drive!!!

Speed is relevant for reaching destination in time, not for dodging missiles.

What fucking idiot would think an Interceptor uses its high flight speed to evade missiles?

4.2 should be enough and even if it isn't they won't have too much problems increasing it because we know from deployment of Avangard that biggest problem for high​ speed (heat resistant materials) have already been solved.

I suspect they suggested that speed because at the time they already knew they could achieve it without exotic new technologies.

I would think that rather more challenging speeds are possible and from an interception perspective would be more useful.

All that's left is new engines but that won't be a problem since they can do it even just by upgrading engines from MiG-31 (those have loads more potential in them left)

And there is always option of creating new ones.

If the time frame was 2025, then new engines would be difficult, but if the new time frame is 2030 then new engine designs are likely the reason for the time schedule... most schedules I have seen talk about MiG-31s leaving service in 2028 so replacements needed for 2025 onwards to allow an easy transition.

unlikely it is feasible to make pure turbojet which can sustain 4Ma+ , more likely also for fuel / heat efficient they use a hybrid engine.

No need for something that complex and bulky...

The SR-71 has bypass air flowing around its turbojet engines... the turbojet engines are used for takeoff and landing but high speed flight airflows around the engine in the bypass section... as the aircraft gets faster airflow through the turbojet is gradually reduced down to an idle and the flight thrust is generated via a ramjet consisting of the bypass air flow.

GarryB wrote:

unlikely it is feasible to make pure turbojet which can sustain 4Ma+ , more likely also for fuel / heat efficient they use a hybrid engine.

No need for something that complex and bulky...

The SR-71 has bypass air flowing around its turbojet engines... the turbojet engines are used for takeoff and landing but high speed flight airflows around the engine in the bypass section... as the aircraft gets faster airflow through the turbojet is gradually reduced down to an idle and the flight thrust is generated via a ramjet consisting of the bypass air flow.

ekhm but this is precisely the same thing we are talking about : same inlet, same outlet, separate ramjet and turbojet parts.

Interesting that this engine, which is apparently an evolution of the J58 originally destined to propel a supersonic USN weapon, is thought to be capable of Mach 4+ while being notably simpler and more efficient than the original J58:

Jane's Aeroengines wrote:In August 2004, Allison Advanced Development Co. (AADC) shared with Lockheed Martin a USD175 million five-year contract for the Rattlers (revolutionary approach to time-critical long-range strike) hypersonic unmanned vehicle. Part of the National Aerospace Initiative, and administered by the Office of Naval Research, the Rattlers mission is long-range strike. Its YJ102R turbojet-based combined-cycle engine is being designed as "an inexpensive propulsion system for Mach-4+, with advanced turbine cooling and no afterburner, yet with cruise specific thrust six times that of the Pratt & Whitney J58". If the eventual J102R should find a manned application, it will feature in Jane's Aero-Engines. In any event, its technology can hardly fail to read across to the propulsion of future Mach-4+ manned aircraft. In July 2005 AADC was renamed Rolls-Royce North American Technologies Inc.

This is interestingly the same speed range that had been mentioned for MiG-41, so maybe an engine like the required one would not be that unprecedented...

Airbus has a better solution. For pak-da it would be a very good system.

There was another idea I think I can't remember exactly but it was something like a normal plane that pops down some scramjet when high enough and travels at supersonic speed. Maybe it is the same as in the video. Maybe someone knows what I'm talking about.

According to Tarasenko (head of MiG), the perspective interceptor, which is planned to put into service the Russian VKS as a replacement for the MiG-31, has low visibility properties


Perspective long-range interceptor to be low visible
https://topwar.ru/159142-perspektivnyj-dalnij-perehvatchik-budet-malozametnym.html?utm_source=website&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=group

http://airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-defense-security-news/2019-news-aerospace-industry-air-force/august/5335-mig-41-project-to-be-completed-in-2019.html

So soon we will see the prototype MiG-41

So it will only fly at Mach 3 and reach up to 17 km in altitude?

This seems to be incorrect, as even old air frames can reach a higher altitude. It would hardly be a replacement for the Mig-31.

nero wrote:So it will only fly at Mach 3 and reach up to 17 km in altitude?

This seems to be incorrect, as even old air frames can reach a higher altitude. It would hardly be a replacement for the Mig-31.

Yeah the requirements sounds like stuff the Mig-31 is already capable of doing.

Arrow wrote:http://airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-defense-security-news/2019-news-aerospace-industry-air-force/august/5335-mig-41-project-to-be-completed-in-2019.html

  So soon we will see the prototype MiG-41

I read it as the design phase is being completed....

There was another idea I think I can't remember exactly but it was something like a normal plane that pops down some scramjet when high enough and travels at supersonic speed. Maybe it is the same as in the video. Maybe someone knows what I'm talking about.

Had a lot of problems with that video... first of all the size of the fuselage compared to the size and shape of the wing is absurd... it would need 20 of those turbojet engines to get airborne.

More importantly retracting jet engines mid flight is very complicated... the need to be structurally strong because they are pulling the aircraft along in flight but also retractable?

And when retracted... how are you going to deal with the thousands of degrees C those engines are currently and without airflow to help them cool down?

Next is the rockets... liquid or solid?

The way they want to just shut them down like that means they have to be liquid... which is going to be problematic... liquid rocket propellents are volatile at the best of times and normally highly toxic. Solid rocket boosters are even more expensive and not reusable and cannot be shut down once started.

And those ramjets... why not use high bypass turbofans with a ramjet cycle that don't retract... takeoff with turbofans and climb and accelerate... once supersonic have the engines slowly transition to ramjet as it accelerates further and further and just keep climbing and accelerating... don't waste time or risk with rocket motors... just keep accelerating with ramjet power...

They will likely have a competition for Mig-41 so there might be a few competing designs... long range and internal weapons carriage for low drag and combat persistence mean to me that this is going to be a bigger aircraft to carry more fuel and more big weapons internally... it might even be Tu-22M3M sized... the first version might have a ramjet, but later models might get scramjets.

It would be a good candidate for the new photonic radar technology too.

nero wrote:So it will only fly at Mach 3 and reach up to 17 km in altitude?

This seems to be incorrect, as even old air frames can reach a higher altitude. It would hardly be a replacement for the Mig-31.

Why 17 km? They said tropopause and stratopause, the middle of stratopause is 50 km and that's nearly space! The space offically begins at 100 km.

The characteristics of Mig-41, so far we know now:

Speed: 3.675 km/h (world record 3529,6 km/h by SR-71A)
Altitude: Up to 50 km (world record 37 650 m by Je-266M)

I think it will be a bit bigger than actually Mig-31 is, the engines creating more power...so it will definitely house a big powerful radar and maybe have enough power for energy weapons. For sure the Mig-41 will have no counterparty for at least 20-30 years compared to the rest of the world. The SR-72 is now only a concept and the project behind the Mig-41 and it's unmanned, so it's only a drone.

The MIG Corporation announces work with the Russian Ministry of Defense to create a new long-range interceptor fighter

“We work with the Ministry of Defense on this issue, "he said at the MAKS-2019 air show, answering the agency’s question whether the MIG corporation received from the military the technical assignment for the PAK DP

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=516021&lang=RU

Show after show the same "news", MIG wants to built, MOD wants to see.
The opposite of the PAK DA, the military talked, Tupolev remain in silence.

At the end we don't even know what's going on with mig-41. Some news say it is already started and other say it will be started. The best for them is to stop talking.