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    Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:54 pm

    Mountains also benefit air forces in a defensive rile. You can conduct a hit and run attack and then quickly disappear behind the mountains.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:13 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Mountains also benefit air forces in a defensive rile. You can conduct a hit and run attack and then quickly disappear behind the mountains.

    When you have stand off weapons. I doubt any of two country has any. Armenian su-30 have the advantage but they won't go anywhere near S-300 or buks.

    Both countries also have manpads and it will be tricky to conduct air operation in the mountains.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:51 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Na Russia can't stop this one

    This is the Erdogan-NATO plan being put into action.
    The so-called 'Turkic Council', which all Turkic countries have joined so far but Turkmenistan (which is an observer).

    If Turkey couldn't unite all the stans during the 90's, than their not going to do it now.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:46 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Na Russia can't stop this one

    This is the Erdogan-NATO plan being put into action.
    The so-called 'Turkic Council', which all Turkic countries have joined so far but Turkmenistan (which is an observer).

    If Turkey couldn't unite all the stans during the 90's, than their not going to do it now.

    They're gonna try

    The Americans switched the Kurds for the Turks last year

    And now the Americans, at least the globalist faction, has had enough of Russia altogether. They're going to activate every dormant instrument in order to collapse it. The Turkic Council plan has the full backing of NATO.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:44 pm

    How to counter it?
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:53 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:How to counter it?

    If Turkey breaks through to the Caspian and NATO along with it, then it can't be countered by the current model of Russian state, social and economic development; pan-Turkic nationalism will inevitably rise and lead to unrest, damaging the economy and forcing all sorts of resources to be allocated to placating and dealing with unrest. Elites of national republics will feel their strength so to speak, spread more nationalism among their constituent populations, and use that as leverage with the center to force more economic and political concessions from the center. The nationalism of both Russians and other non-Turkic peoples will rise in response, and this will start centrifugal processes and make it even harder for the state to maintain order. Economic links with Kazakhstan will be disrupted, and the Central Asian migrants Russia currently relies on to reduce the cost of labour, can potentially themselves start to become 5th columns - although this isn't such a great danger due to their economic reliance on Russia and therefore abstinence from trying to cause trouble.

    Armenia will also be lost. For the Armenians the main thing is Nagorno-Karabakh. If it becomes clear to them that it can't be defended militarily, then they will be forced to agree to an Erdogan-Aliev joint-offer, of land swap - at least the main part of Nagorno-Karabakh territory, in return for a land corridor through the southern most part of Armenia linking Azerbaijan to its enclave, which in turn is already linked to Turkey.
    This will cut off Armenia from Iran and make Russian supply and support for Armenia untenable, as Georgia will also not allow it. Georgia in fact is a NATO candidate member, and in all effect the situation will force Armenia to switch to a pro-Western orientation too and apply for NATO membership as well.

    If Russia and Iran do prevent Turkey from establishing a corridor to Azerbaijan through Armenia, by successfully helping defend Nagorno-Karabakh with mercs and non-state actors, so to speak; then the process can be delayed. But it won't be stopped, because then Azeris will blame Russia, and owing to the Azeri population within Russia, their lobbies can spring into action, start fanning propaganda amongst other Turkic peoples, etc... again this will mean more Russian state resources will have to be deployed, more censorship, repression and so on - which will actually lead to dissatisfaction among the wider population too. The same rise of national consciousness will take place in Iran, among the Azeri population there. And Iran unlike Russia, is also vulnerable to external direct attack, which can take place on the standard humanitarian pretext of helping the poor suffering Iranian Azeris; and suffer they actually will because Iran will have no recourse but to oppress seperatism by force.

    It has to be remembered that this will be a long-term conflict. It can go on for years, during which time the Russian economy and social cohesiveness will suffer due to these processes, and NATO will only seek to entrench itself into Central Asia further

    Putin's system is showing that it's only a Christian Orthodox, Slavic version of Erdogan's system at the end of the day. More progressive, developed and civilized, but still ultimately the same sort of thing. The Russian Empire mirror of the Ottoman Empire. Why should Central Asians, or even some of Russia's constituent peoples - ultimately pick it over the one that promises them economic gain and ethnic affinity?

    The rise of nationalism is a pretty complicated topic with many different factors that go into it, but it is only exasperated by policing and assimilation measures, not countered.
    What actually counters it is the development of class consciousness, which at the moment Russian society is experiencing and that is a good thing. The end goal must be Putin ceding power and allowing elections, at which the Communist Party can win. The Communist Party in Russia is of course not a true communist party any more; its leaders are millionaires themselves that flirt with reactionary concepts, with liberalism and have now concluded an alliance with the Navalnites of pro-Western, nationalist and petty borgouise orientation. But this isn't really a threat. As the party also has by far the most practical experience, and resources of any party in the world that calls itself socialist. The liberals can all be given nominal positions and nods to their ideas, but the very fact that the party is named the Communist Party, will restart all the interest in socialist concepts among society, including people's democracy, and a move to a free-market Marxist economy.
    Both federal, and regional clans, can be weakened by allowing the people to profit from their own labour in regards to natural resources and everything else. This will become an inevitable process whether communist party political leaders are interested in that or not.

    It also cannot be denied that Russian society has by far the most experience with socialist organization and theory, even if that's now a distant memory; the lessons had all been learned already. These aren't American socialists for you, who have internalized globalist divisions of race and now sexual identity, and are in fact currently fighting only to strengthen the borgouise heirarchy in their own country rather than abolish it.

    Anyway, how advanced ideas can be implemented in practice is another question.
    If at the very least, material conditions can start to be improved through a massive investment in healthcare, education reform, as well as freedom for the development of all languages and cultures in the Russian Federation; then that will cement idealism, that will very much run contrary to nationalist idealism. Nationalist elites in the ex-USSR and within Russia will get scared, and might seek to distance themselves - but that will only show to the people who they are.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:31 pm

    The communists fucked things up so badly. Commies are retarded and this is example of it.

    Your hate for Putin is retarded. He was really only one keeping your country together and now is preventing powers like Turkey from gaining real traction.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:35 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Na Russia can't stop this one

    This is the Erdogan-NATO plan being put into action.
    The so-called 'Turkic Council', which all Turkic countries have joined so far but Turkmenistan (which is an observer).

    If Turkey couldn't unite all the stans during the 90's, than their not going to do it now.

    As seen, Turkey can barely fight a cold. They are relying on Russia for a lot and pan Turkish groups are nothing more than a talking ground. If people like flaming are dumb enough to think they have a united goal, then he is fooling himself.

    As history has shown, no two nations feel the same 100%. Each so called pan Turkish state are quasi dictatorships and they all want their power. They won't bow to Turkey either. As seen in middle East, it is same everywhere else.

    And US fucked relations with Turkey. NATO as a whole did. NATO internal fighting will also prevent any real Turkish growth outside of Turkey. They are trying and I give them credit. But Turkey isn't a country one should be overtly scared of. Lot of assumptions and little of real evidence.

    Majority of the pan Turkish nations rely on Russia economically. Sad thing too is Turkey is also growing to become reliant on Russia as well.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:59 am

    @Flaming Python,

    you make it sound as if minorities are persecuted in Russia which is BS
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:38 am

    Cyberspec wrote:@Flaming Python,

    you make it sound as if minorities are persecuted in Russia which is BS

    Rampaging minorities is what originally spread the gangrene of communism in Russia

    Fact that they now have order and institutions is bad for what commie cockroaches think will be the second coming of Red Messiah



    Reds have definitely been getting uppity everywhere lately creeping out from USA to EU and Russia, no country or continent is spared



    We suddenly had some of that scum popping up here as well, random shits going around ranting about oppression, bullshitting about "worker rights" crap and calling each other "comrade" and such shit

    Looks like they haven't had enough of erasing culture and setting civilisation backwards



    Time to dust off good old Operation Condor and apply it generously worldwide, it definitely got the job done last time since the red blight has been quite scarce in Latin America ever since



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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:58 am

    The "communists" in the West, with the exception of a few proper marxists are really delusional cultural marxists talking non sense ...I haven't seen them yet take on Wall Street or big business

    Regarding Ukraine...

    Apparently 2 foreigners were killed in the Donbas on the 14th of July...an American and Estonian

    https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1283868159737384960


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    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Looks like they haven't had enough of erasing culture and setting civilisation backwards

    I am living in a socialist country and I must ask what kind of culture we are erasing ? What kind of civilisation backwards are we doing ? Go ask the ethnic minorities in Vietnam, go ask the rural farmers in Vietnam and see whether the socialist regime makes them "backwards" or not.

    Tell them that the Reds "erase culture", and they will tell you how the communist teachers and doctors effectively erase illiteracy and erase diseases, even in the most remoted region and in the most difficult conditions. They will tell you that the communist teachers walk in barefoot across the mountains and jungles to bring the child to the school, and the communist cardes assist the local people in farming and other daily affairs.

    And what kind of culture are you talking about ? If you mention the degenerated, selfish "culture" that is constantly promoted in the mainstream Western media then of course we want to erase that.

    PapaDragon wrote:We suddenly had some of that scum popping up here as well, random shits going around ranting about oppression, bullshitting about "worker rights" crap and calling each other "comrade" and such shit

    Probably you have met some self-proclaimed "red" daydreamers who lack knowledge, lack experience and only have empty words. Probably I may be one amongst them, well I admit that my knowledge and capability is very limited. But that does not mean that also applies to everyone else. The communists are completely different from the arrogant, narrow-minded, and megalomaniac city intellegistia (me included).
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:14 pm

    Majority of the pan Turkish nations rely on Russia economically. Sad thing too is Turkey is also growing to become reliant on Russia as well.

    The sooner the people of Turkey and the people of Russia realise they get further ahead by working together than by fighting the better.

    Conflict suits the US and the west, because it divides those who oppose them and it weakens those who oppose them...

    The problem with communism is when people who want power get positions of power, when what you want in your commisar is someone who wants to help and improve the unit, not someone who derives their self worth by having power over others.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:25 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:...I am living in a socialist country and I must ask what kind of culture we are erasing ? What kind of civilisation backwards are we doing ? Go ask the ethnic minorities in Vietnam, go ask the rural farmers in Vietnam and see whether the socialist regime makes them "backwards" or not.

    When communists took over Serbia they turned the who country into a charnel house

    During WW2 they intentionally targeted Nazis strictly on Serbian territory knowing full well and counting on the fact that Nazis would then implement their 100 for 1 rule on Serbian population (100 dead civilians for every dead German)

    They strictly avoided doing this in non-Serbian areas

    Communist party was composed almost exclusively of criminals and terrorists who treated the country like their personal feudal property

    After the war they organized mass kllings of educated and successful people alongside anyone​ who was even suspected of disagreeing with their psychopathic ideology, bodycount was huge

    They ruined historical heritage and destroyed temples and cultural sites that stood for centuries

    Serbian national identity was intentionally erased while Serbian territory was converted into a source of cheap resources and budgetary subsidies for other Yugoslavian republics (this may remind you of a certain large Orthodox country in the East, similarities are definitely not accidental) and depopulated through decades long ethnic cleansing programs

    Economy, industry, science, education and culture were set back decades and we still don't know if we will ever manage to recover

    We somehow survived (for now) but we will not survive something like that again which is why any communist which could pose any serious threat must be killed immediately alongside their families before they can do any serious damage



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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:18 pm

    Yes, Russia was the Communists piggy bank and resource house. The rest were more or less consumers. They also took Russian land and divided it up among groups of people which some were invented (Ukraine). It's a joke and anyone seriously supporting communists in Russia must really hate Russia and Russians.
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    Post  kvs on Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:42 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:The "communists" in the West, with the exception of a few proper marxists are really delusional cultural marxists talking non sense ...I haven't seen them yet take on Wall Street or big business

    Regarding Ukraine...

    Apparently 2 foreigners were killed in the Donbas on the 14th of July...an American and Estonian

    https://twitter.com/Cyberspec1/status/1283868159737384960



    These "communists" are frauds. Antifa is sponsored by George Soros. It waves the black and red colours of fascists (see Banderite flag).
    And as you note the "ultra-leftists" in the west are woke cult members.

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    Post  kvs on Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:44 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Yes, Russia was the Communists piggy bank and resource house. The rest were more or less consumers.  They also took Russian land and divided it up among groups of people which some were invented (Ukraine).  It's a joke and anyone seriously supporting communists in Russia must really hate Russia and Russians.

    This is something that Russians should never forget and never forgive. It is a type of genocide.

    The current crop of "communists" in Russia are full bore traitors serving NATzO's interests just like Navalny. These are crooks who see
    left wing ideas as a meal ticket since they resonate with the masses. But they actually do not believe in any progressive ideals.
    Their objective is to bait and switch and have the masses live in poverty to make themselves rich.

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    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:20 pm

    Yugoslav partisans were the least criminal of all resistance movements in Yugoslavia. They were also the only truly multiethnic force in the country, Ustashe wanted Greater Croatia (and they killed 300,000 Serbs for it), Chetniks wanted Greater Serbia. If Chetniks seized power, there would be another civil war and after 5 years Yugoslavia would be a thing of the past.

    Yugoslavia had a problem with Serb dominance - the Serbs thought that if they are the most numerous ethnicity, then they deserve to rule the country. Yugoslavia pre 1941 was like this, a Greater Serbia in everything but name.


    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:29 pm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1284152107059290113

    Israeli made drone in the hands of Armenians. I think it will be sent to Russia very soon lol1 . Downed by EW.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:15 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:...Yugoslavia had a problem with Serb dominance - the Serbs thought that if they are the most numerous ethnicity, then they deserve to rule the country. Yugoslavia pre 1941 was like this, a Greater Serbia in everything but name.

    Thank you Mr. CNN for your valuable input, I totally never heard this excuse version before



    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Yugoslav partisans were the least criminal of all resistance movements in Yugoslavia. They were also the only truly multiethnic force in the country,

    Partisans were scum who were happy to genocide entire nation to claw their way to the top and secure top position for their ethnic groups

    Commie leadership were definitely not Serbs (just as Lenin and Stalin weren't Russians, noticing a pattern?)



    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Ustashe wanted Greater Croatia (and they killed 300,000 Serbs for it)

    Ustashe GOT Greater Croatia and afterwards they killed over 600,000 Serbs not 300,000 but considering EU trends in interpreting history I wouldn't be surprised if that number was reduced to 50,000 before long with options for further reduction

    After all good guys have to keep up the appearance



    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Chetniks wanted Greater Serbia. If Chetniks seized power, there would be another civil war and after 5 years Yugoslavia would be a thing of the past.

    WW2 Chetniks were monarchists (or maybe Slovenians and Macedonians were also Serbs as well since that's the only logical explanation for them being in "Greater Serb" guerilla?)

    You are conflating 1940s with 1990s

    Yugoslavia shouldn't have existed in the first place but communists wanted to secure interest of their respective ethnicities at the expense of Serbs



    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:24 am

    BTW the communists believed that too much Russisn nationalism was what led to separation of Poland, Finland and the Baltics from the USSR. So, they created the ethnic republics in order to counterweight Russian influence inthe USSR.

    The communists used to come from nationalitied thst felt oppressed - ie. Jews, Poles, Latvians etc. The model minority in the Russian Empire were the Baltic Germans. They were a tiny minority yet were massively overrepresented in government, industry, academia and the army... look how many communists they produced.

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    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:28 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:So, they created the ethnic republics in order to counterweight Russian influence inthe USSR.

    The communists want to counter anyone who wants to be the bully. Therefore every kinds of national group must have an equal position in the community and must consults the opinions of others to work together.

    It is not breaking up Russia or whatever, it is to make sure that everyone is fairly treated in the community. Many people here may not understand, but being from a nation who went through decades of blood and fight to break from the imperialist domination I sympathize and agree with Lenin and the communists.

    Much of the ethnic conflicts in SNG countries have economic reasons behind it. And in the case of Azerbaijan, one of the reason is that it serves as a mean to distract the public from the internal issues and corruption of the Azer government. Benjamin Netanahyu uses the same tactics, he provoke Israel facism and intensify the bullying on Palestinian people to keep the public distracted from the his corruption scandals.

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    medo
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    Post  medo on Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:45 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Yugoslav partisans were the least criminal of all resistance movements in Yugoslavia. They were also the only truly multiethnic force in the country, Ustashe wanted Greater Croatia (and they killed 300,000 Serbs for it), Chetniks wanted Greater Serbia. If Chetniks seized power, there would be another civil war and after 5 years Yugoslavia would be a thing of the past.

    Yugoslavia had a problem with Serb dominance - the Serbs thought that if they are the most numerous ethnicity, then they deserve to rule the country. Yugoslavia pre 1941 was like this, a Greater Serbia in everything but name.



    Kingdom of Yugoslavia was invented by the King Aleksander Karadzhordzhevich. Before it was Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. After WW1, northern territories of today Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia, which were territories of defieted Austro-Hungarian monarhy, were attached to Kingdom of Serbia, who was the winner in WW1. It was actually enlarged Kingdom of Serbia, so it is logical, that it would be Serb dominated state.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:32 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:BTW the communists believed that too much Russisn nationalism was what led to separation of Poland, Finland and the Baltics from the USSR. So, they created the ethnic republics in order to counterweight Russian influence inthe USSR.

    The communists used to come from nationalitied thst felt oppressed - ie. Jews, Poles, Latvians etc. The model minority in the Russian Empire were the Baltic Germans. They were a tiny minority yet were massively overrepresented in government, industry, academia and the army... look how many communists they produced.


    Poland and Finland has a separate status inside Russian Empire. It would be impossible to be non-indepedent for much time.

    BUT if communists hadnt created so many republics especially those in central asia, today Russian state could have included belarus and Kazakhstan at least


    Last edited by George1 on Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  par far on Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:49 pm

    Turkey is recruiting Syrian militants to fight Armenia on behalf of Azerbaijan. Erdog is really trying to make as many allies for Assad as possible it seems.

    https://southfront.org/turkey-is-recruiting-syrian-militants-to-fight-for-azerbaijan-against-armenia-reports/

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