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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Christ your thick. I wasn't even condemning the move, but pointing out that it is undeniable Russia has indeed done what it has been accused of in regards to heavy weapons and other supplies.

    I never claimed I saw "all" Crimean T-64s. But if you can show some that have that ERA pattern or any other identifiable pattern, go ahead. Oh wait...you...can't Sad. And then there is the small matter of it obviously being a Russian tank-transport column, so in the end...RUSSIA GAVE TANKS TO SEPS. It's obvious. And actually totally irrelevant where they came from, Crimea, or Rostov, which Otvaga (an authoritative source) seems content with.

    Your responses are like me screaming "HITLER DID WORSE HITLER DID WORSE" to any implication of someone doing something unpleasant.


    No only you try to indicate that.

    But i will explain for you nuthead again. Russia did nothing wrong by giving them TANKS, absolutley nothing!

    Those rebels are not the scum the US is supporting, those rebels are genuine good people who only protect themselfs, they are not the scum that are genociding civilians they are trying to protect them and nothing else. So stop twisting it like those two things are on same level, the one is true evil supporting real terrorists the other one is supporting freedom fighters who fight to be free from fascists who genocide them. Of course you indoctrinated US troll will laugh right now, but go ahead and show me that those two things are even comparable with each other, please give me the pleasure how those two things are comparable in wrong doing, you can not and you know it, nuthead!
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:47 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Christ your thick. I wasn't even condemning the move, but pointing out that it is undeniable Russia has indeed done what it has been accused of in regards to heavy weapons and other supplies.

    I never claimed I saw "all" Crimean T-64s. But if you can show some that have that ERA pattern or any other identifiable pattern, go ahead. Oh wait...you...can't Sad. And then there is the small matter of it obviously being a Russian tank-transport column, so in the end...RUSSIA GAVE TANKS TO SEPS. It's obvious. And actually totally irrelevant where they came from, Crimea, or Rostov, which Otvaga (an authoritative source) seems content with.

    Your responses are like me screaming "HITLER DID WORSE HITLER DID WORSE" to any implication of someone doing something unpleasant.


    You know what, you're right. Seps indeed received T-64 from Russia.
    Because, obviously, the biggest gun to supply is always absolutely the best for insurgent type militaries.

    Taking this into account we may even predict the obvious further purchases:
    That would be OKA 420 mortar, mig-29 fighters, and obviously, "Mikhail Kutuzov" cruiser, currently piered in novorosysk Smile

    That is a cute edit. I should have known common sense and this thread do not mix.
    The rebs do not seem to be lacking in light insurgency type weaponry. You can speculate where they all got it from, I think it is obvious.

    Try and argue with more logical gymnastics, the T-64s were in Russian hands one day, soon after seps are riding in them looking virtually identical.

    All there is to it.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:49 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Christ your thick. I wasn't even condemning the move, but pointing out that it is undeniable Russia has indeed done what it has been accused of in regards to heavy weapons and other supplies.

    I never claimed I saw "all" Crimean T-64s. But if you can show some that have that ERA pattern or any other identifiable pattern, go ahead. Oh wait...you...can't Sad. And then there is the small matter of it obviously being a Russian tank-transport column, so in the end...RUSSIA GAVE TANKS TO SEPS. It's obvious. And actually totally irrelevant where they came from, Crimea, or Rostov, which Otvaga (an authoritative source) seems content with.

    Your responses are like me screaming "HITLER DID WORSE HITLER DID WORSE" to any implication of someone doing something unpleasant.


    No only you try to indicate that.

    But i will explain for you nuthead again. Russia did nothing wrong by giving them TANKS, absolutley nothing!

    Those rebels are not the scum the US is supporting, those rebels are genuine good people who only protect themselfs, they are not the scum that are genociding civilians they are trying to protect them and nothing else. So stop twisting it like those two things are on same level, the one is true evil supporting real terrorists the other one is supporting freedom fighters who fight to be free from fascists who genocide them. Of course you indoctrinated US troll will laugh right now, but go ahead and show me that those two things are even comparable with each other, please give me the pleasure how those two things are comparable in wrong doing, you can not and you know it, nuthead!

    Oh ok. So we are past denying the tanks!

    Good job Werewolf, for all your insanity you actually have more ability to recognize a duck then other members of this thread.
    Of course it is followed by a rant I once again (for the 20th time) will say, I am not interested in discussing or arguing. Because I only came here to talk about Russian military aid.

    Which as you thankfully finally see, is evident Smile.

    Also, you are gonna look really dumb in 6 months time when no genocide has occured.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:52 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Christ your thick. I wasn't even condemning the move, but pointing out that it is undeniable Russia has indeed done what it has been accused of in regards to heavy weapons and other supplies.

    I never claimed I saw "all" Crimean T-64s. But if you can show some that have that ERA pattern or any other identifiable pattern, go ahead. Oh wait...you...can't Sad. And then there is the small matter of it obviously being a Russian tank-transport column, so in the end...RUSSIA GAVE TANKS TO SEPS. It's obvious. And actually totally irrelevant where they came from, Crimea, or Rostov, which Otvaga (an authoritative source) seems content with.

    Your responses are like me screaming "HITLER DID WORSE HITLER DID WORSE" to any implication of someone doing something unpleasant.


    You know what, you're right. Seps indeed received T-64 from Russia.
    Because, obviously, the biggest gun to supply is always absolutely the best for insurgent type militaries.

    Taking this into account we may even predict the obvious further purchases:
    That would be OKA 420 mortar, mig-29 fighters, and obviously, "Mikhail Kutuzov" cruiser, currently piered in novorosysk Smile

    That is a cute edit. I should have known common sense and this thread do not mix.
    The rebs do not seem to be lacking in light insurgency type weaponry. You can speculate where they all got it from, I think it is obvious.

    Try and argue with more logical gymnastics, the T-64s were in Russian hands one day, soon after seps are riding in them looking virtually identical.

    All there is to it.

    Sure like not a single Ukrainian base was seized or pledged loyalty to rebels. All weapons and every single pistol,AK and every single round comes from Russia, like ukrainians had only cavalary bases with shashkas and horses but no more modern weaponary, all supplied by mother russia.

    Yes, logic does not work on american made or american indoctrinated brains.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:56 pm

    They got some from local sources, of that there is no doubt. It is also obvious as shit all those people that crossed the border were armed as well. When Ukraine IDs all the small arms they are capturing, it will be obvious IMO. I don't know the breakdown, but it doesn't really matter does it?

    They don't seem to be lacking in small insurgency arms whatsoever.

    And eitherway, someone in some Russian government structure or agency decided they needed T-64s.

    Logic does not work on some wannabe-Russian mini-Goebels apparently.

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    Post  Regular on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:00 pm

    stop with this sausage fest. We got it, You guys disagree with each other and that's it. Neither of You people have to drill Your POV into each other. Just move on with other subtopic.
    Personally I can see plenty of Russian help. But some people see it and tend to forget about it when "needed". I will not go down that road again. 
    I see this conflict as totally unnecessary bullshit. Ukraine, Russia and Europe will be the ones suffering. China(possibly BRICS) and US will profit. Not a tinfoil theory if You think about it.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Oh ok. So we are past denying the tanks!

    Keep saying that those are facts from russian stockpiles while those are not facts but i will say it once again hard indications and indications how hard they are not evidences!

    TR1 wrote:
    Good job Werewolf, for all your insanity you actually have more ability to recognize a duck then other members of this thread.
    Of course it is followed by a rant I once again (for the 20th time) will say, I am not interested in discussing or arguing. Because I only came here to talk about Russian military aid.

    Which as you thankfully finally see, is evident Smile.

    Yes, we exactly know why you are here, to bitch like a little kid about russia doing something wrong when for the past 2 years you could not find anything to grasp on too.
    Again a parrott on chessboard...


    You only come to this forum to bitch about russians and completley ignore and do not want to face facts and evidences that are existent thousand fold and thousand fold worse of US actual false flag operations and even aiding terrorists with WMDs (Sarin) over turkey, but yes lets talk about some trucks and 3 tanks....what a game changer.


    Also, you are gonna look really dumb in 6 months time when no genocide has occured.

    I think you don't know what genocide is.

    Genocide is the systematical extermination,decimation or the attempt of reducing the number of a group be it religious,political oppossition, ethnical, national or any other kind. Genocide is automatically genocide when weapons of Mass Destruction are used. There is also a form of Genocide (systematical reducation of a population) via birth control, like USAID has done in Africa on the World Womens Day by injecting vaccines polluded with mercury which is banned to be used in US and EU since 1960s for their known effect to sterilize women, but was knowlingy used on african women by US and Israel for the ethiopian jews.

    So the bombing of clear civilian villages and towns without any rebels even remotley near those villages is a war crime at least, if they are aware and that is already known that they know where the rebels have their checkpoints and strongholds but still bomb civilians than yes this is an attempt of genocide just to piss of Russia to intervene, because that entire Ukraine crisis had only one purpose a war against russia in proxy over ukraine.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:08 pm

    I'll write one last comment for this stupid discussion:

    Imagine that you're a GRU officer in charge of choosing weapons for rebels. What'd you choose?
    Obvious answer would be GLs, ATGMs, pickup trucks.

    Then imagine that this operation is plagued by political meddling, and politruks specifically want tanks to be supplied. Which tank you'd choose?
    Obvious answer would be cheap, readily available, reliable and deadly T-72/90, with plenty of spare parts and people experienced to work with it.

    Then imagine that politruks don't want Russian exclusive tank, no matter how crappy other choices might be, in order to not blow maskirovka. Which tank you'd choose then?
    Obvious answer would be t-55 and clones. Pretty crappy, but cost nothing and can by fixed with chewgum.

    Then imagine that politruks don't want T-55, more powerful is needed. Which tank you'd choose then?
    Obvious answer would be IS-2/3. Old as hell, but 122mm. Plenty of pieces lying in museums.

    But politruks say, FCS is not sufficient. More accurate is needed. Which tank you'd choose then?
    Obvious answer would be Pokpung-ho. No serial numbers, newbuilt, should be pretty modern.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokpung-ho

    But politruks say, no, too much risk to have a tank built by peasants. More hi-tech is needed. Which tank you'd choose then?
    Obvious answer would be zulfiqar. Same 125mm, shouldn't be too shabby in terms of tech.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulfiqar_%28tank%29

    But politruks say, NO FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, JUST PICK A T-64.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:35 pm; edited 14 times in total
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    Post  Regular on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:12 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:I'll write one last comment for this stupid discussion:

    Imagine that you're a GRU officer in charge of choosing weapons for rebels. What'd you choose?
    Obvious answer would be GLs, ATGMs, pickup trucks.

    Then imagine that this operation is plagued by political meddling, and politruks specifically want tanks o be supplied. Which tank you'd choose?
    Obvious answer would be cheap, readily available, reliable and deadly T-72/90, with plenty of spare parts and people experienced to work with it.

    It is obviously done by politruk as You said, but T-64 are being sent because of deniability Smile Or anyone else can explain T-64 on trailers not far away from Russian border?
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:16 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    I think you don't know what genocide is.

    Genocide is the systematical extermination,decimation or the attempt of reducing the number of a group be it religious,political oppossition, ethnical, national or any other kind. Genocide is automatically genocide when weapons of Mass Destruction are used. There is also a form of Genocide (systematical reducation of a population) via birth control, like USAID has done in Africa on the World Womens Day by injecting vaccines polluded with mercury which is banned to be used in US and EU since 1960s for their known effect to sterilize women, but was knowlingy used on african women by US and Israel for the ethiopian jews.

    So the bombing of clear civilian villages and towns without any rebels even remotley near those villages is a war crime at least, if they are aware and that is already known that they know where the rebels have their checkpoints and strongholds but still bomb civilians than yes this is an attempt of genocide just to piss of Russia to intervene, because that entire Ukraine crisis had only one purpose a war against russia in proxy over ukraine.

    Oh ok. So by that standard, what Russia did in Chechnya was 100000xs the genocide, because unlike Ukraine's occasional artillery strike and a few air raids, Grozny and numerous village were shelled to pieces. Got it.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:20 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:I'll write one last comment for this stupid discussion:

    Imagine that you're a GRU officer in charge of choosing weapons for rebels. What'd you choose?
    Obvious answer would be GLs, ATGMs, pickup trucks.

    Then imagine that this operation is plagued by political meddling, and politruks specifically want tanks to be supplied. Which tank you'd choose?
    Obvious answer would be cheap, readily available, reliable and deadly T-72/90, with plenty of spare parts and people experienced to work with it.

    Then imagine that politruks don't want Russian exclusive tank, no matter how crappy other choices might be, in order to not blow maskirovka. Which tank you'd choose then?
    Obvious answer would be t-55 and clones. Pretty crappy, but cost nothing and can by fixed with chewgum.

    Jesus, the gymanstics continue.

    T-64 is the obvious choice because the Ukrainians would, and are, using it in theater. They had plenty in various states of operational readyness before the war.
    Obvious answer is send the T-64 because there is a clear way to deny that they came from Russia. Captured from Ukraine, defected unit, restored from depot, what have you.

    Too bad our idiots did not bother to cover the tanks in anything while carrying them on Russian roads in daylight. Oops! The Negligent ERA placement does not help either. Looks like our geniuses still don't understand how easy stuff like this is to nitpick in an age with modern media and cellphones.
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    Post  Regular on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:26 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    I think you don't know what genocide is.

    Genocide is the systematical extermination,decimation or the attempt of reducing the number of a group be it religious,political oppossition, ethnical, national or any other kind. Genocide is automatically genocide when weapons of Mass Destruction are used. There is also a form of Genocide (systematical reducation of a population) via birth control, like USAID has done in Africa on the World Womens Day by injecting vaccines polluded with mercury which is banned to be used in US and EU since 1960s for their known effect to sterilize women, but was knowlingy used on african women by US and Israel for the ethiopian jews.

    So the bombing of clear civilian villages and towns without any rebels even remotley near those villages is a war crime at least, if they are aware and that is already known that they know where the rebels have their checkpoints and strongholds but still bomb civilians than yes this is an attempt of genocide just to piss of Russia to intervene, because that entire Ukraine crisis had only one purpose a war against russia in proxy over ukraine.

    Oh ok. So by that standard, what Russia did in Chechnya was 100000xs the genocide, because unlike Ukraine's occasional artillery strike and a few air raids, Grozny and numerous village were shelled to pieces. Got it.
    But.. Chechens are evil.... Oh wait, no they are not. They are good guys
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:32 pm

    No, first of all, the only pathetic thing here are those childish and silly word games certain trolls are trying pull off in this thread.

    Secondly it is even incredibly more pathetic to downvote and threaten ban people because they appear to be a bit smarter than the mainstream zombies .... or they don't want to play your silly "play dumb" game. Seriously who doest that .... no seriously, how old are you who does it, don't you have any pride left son ? no self-esteem whatsoever ? this only proves mental weakness and nothing else. No hold to oneselfs emotions. I don't know what else to think of such persons .... can't take him serious.

    Thirdly ? can we be serious about this all ? without ubernationalistic and uberpatriotic childish behaviour ?

    sepheronx wrote:
    Remember the 2008 war and the dead black guys whom had US passports? And whom were seen in anotger video dancing with Georgian troops.

    More likely mercenaries, but still.



    [/quote]

    Your point is .... ? those are USMC instructors in Georgia. A totaly common thing since 2001. TEP ( Train and Equip Program ). I know which photos you are referring to, that burnt corpse looking like an afro-american. You know .... burnt corpses look black .... None of that had ever been confirmed and especialy not as to belonging to one of the persons in that video. It's the same nonsense with that US passport that was supposedly found in a basement in a village near Tskhinvali, that US special forces guy from Texas who supposedly was fighting alongside Georgian police unit. All debunked as crappy PR try. USMC only armed units during the 2008 conflict were deployed around the US embassy what is a well known fact. If you are going with that laughable "show me evidence" game, than please prove the opposite with waterproof evidence. Because that is the same you guys demand from anyone who suggests and assumes the most obvious in the world, that Russia is actively providing supplies, logistics, intel and mercs to the insurgency in Ukraine.


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:47 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:34 pm

    Regular wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    I think you don't know what genocide is.

    Genocide is the systematical extermination,decimation or the attempt of reducing the number of a group be it religious,political oppossition, ethnical, national or any other kind. Genocide is automatically genocide when weapons of Mass Destruction are used. There is also a form of Genocide (systematical reducation of a population) via birth control, like USAID has done in Africa on the World Womens Day by injecting vaccines polluded with mercury which is banned to be used in US and EU since 1960s for their known effect to sterilize women, but was knowlingy used on african women by US and Israel for the ethiopian jews.

    So the bombing of clear civilian villages and towns without any rebels even remotley near those villages is a war crime at least, if they are aware and that is already known that they know where the rebels have their checkpoints and strongholds but still bomb civilians than yes this is an attempt of genocide just to piss of Russia to intervene, because that entire Ukraine crisis had only one purpose a war against russia in proxy over ukraine.

    Oh ok. So by that standard, what Russia did in Chechnya was 100000xs the genocide, because unlike Ukraine's occasional artillery strike and a few air raids, Grozny and numerous village were shelled to pieces. Got it.
    But.. Chechens are evil.... Oh wait, no they are not. They are good guys

    Haha, classic.

    I must say, before this mess, I had no idea Chechens are such passionate followers of what is happening in Ukraine. After all, they all volunteered spontaneously by themselves...
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:57 pm

    How many tanks do the rebels actualy posess ? also I've heard that one of those T-64s got (re)captured by UA recently ? also is it true they use Akatsias ? that would explain the precise bombardment of UA positions. Saying that rebels are moderately supplied would be a damn understatement, doesn't matter if they got all those arms from looted UA bases, Crimea or Russia. Just look at all that stuff, it's only one weapon cache. I've seen Fagot / Metis launchers being used as well.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 7 Untitled
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:16 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    I think you don't know what genocide is.

    Genocide is the systematical extermination,decimation or the attempt of reducing the number of a group be it religious,political oppossition, ethnical, national or any other kind. Genocide is automatically genocide when weapons of Mass Destruction are used. There is also a form of Genocide (systematical reducation of a population) via birth control, like USAID has done in Africa on the World Womens Day by injecting vaccines polluded with mercury which is banned to be used in US and EU since 1960s for their known effect to sterilize women, but was knowlingy used on african women by US and Israel for the ethiopian jews.

    So the bombing of clear civilian villages and towns without any rebels even remotley near those villages is a war crime at least, if they are aware and that is already known that they know where the rebels have their checkpoints and strongholds but still bomb civilians than yes this is an attempt of genocide just to piss of Russia to intervene, because that entire Ukraine crisis had only one purpose a war against russia in proxy over ukraine.

    Oh ok. So by that standard, what Russia did in Chechnya was 100000xs the genocide, because unlike Ukraine's occasional artillery strike and a few air raids, Grozny and numerous village were shelled to pieces. Got it.

    And the Iraq war was a trillion times larger than Chechnya, but wait you said yourself that you didn't care 1.5 million Iraqi's died over a lie, so a charlatan and sanctimonious hypocrite such as yourself should stop posturing with your pull-ups in a not with fake moral superiority.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:39 pm

    Iraq wasn't a genocide. Nice try though Very Happy.

    I said I didn't care in the context of the thread. Reading comprehension is pretty weak among you nutcases.
    If this was a US-politics, or Iraqi history forum, I would very much care to discuss it.

    The only reason you nuts brings it up constantly because you are pathetically trying to shit blame whenever Russia does anything.
    Sucks that it isn't working Sad .
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:44 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:How many tanks do the rebels actualy posess ? also I've heard that one of those T-64s got (re)captured by UA recently ? also is it true they use Akatsias ? that would explain the precise bombardment of UA positions. Saying that rebels are moderately supplied would be a damn understatement, doesn't matter if they got all those arms from looted UA bases, Crimea or Russia. Just look at all that stuff, it's only one weapon cache. I've seen Fagot / Metis launchers being used as well.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 7 Untitled

    Yeah that photo came to mind immediately when a certain someone tried to pull Gold level mental gymnastics.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:10 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Yeah that photo came to mind immediately when a certain someone tried to pull Gold level mental gymnastics.

    Of course, then certain someone is so blindly believing in every social media post, a little more in-depth consideration may really look worthy of gold medal to him/her.

    Look, TR1, putin is supplying seps with more BUKs  Laughing 
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:25 pm

    No, hard evidence is not "believing every social media post". Photos and videos are not twitter posts, sorry.
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    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:30 pm

    TR1 wrote:No, hard evidence is not "believing every social media post". Photos and videos are not twitter posts, sorry.

    If you consider photos and videos from unknown location with details highlighted WRONGLY as "hard evidence" then I'm even afraid to imagine what you consider as "vague evidence"  Smile 
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:40 pm

    TR1 wrote:Iraq wasn't a genocide. Nice try though Very Happy.

    I said I didn't care in the context of the thread. Reading comprehension is pretty weak among you nutcases.
    If this was a US-politics, or Iraqi history forum, I would very much care to discuss it.

    The only reason you nuts brings it up constantly because you are pathetically trying to shit blame whenever Russia does anything.
    Sucks that it isn't working Sad .

    Nut case applies to apoplectic solipsist and person trapped in catch-22 scenario, such as yourself who flame-baits everyone on this forum, instead of enjoying a social life...didn't think of that did you, nice try though. lol1 
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 7 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:49 pm

    OSCE monitor's take on the damage observed on the plane debris:

    TR1
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 7 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:57 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    TR1 wrote:No, hard evidence is not "believing every social media post". Photos and videos are not twitter posts, sorry.

    If you consider photos and videos from unknown location with details highlighted WRONGLY as "hard evidence" then I'm even afraid to imagine what you consider as "vague evidence"  Smile 

    Unknown, but 100% in Russia.

    Oooof.
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    etaepsilonk

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7 - Page 7 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Unknown, but 100% in Russia.

    Alright, it's in Russia.

    So what this "hard evidence" tells you besides that?  Wink 

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