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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:14 pm

    [quote="flamming_python"]
    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    I think it's likely that the rebels shot it down, but

    a). We don't know that with any certainty yet
    b). There is certainly no indication that Russia gave the rebels any sort of SAM system. That's a narrative, that was actually sneakily inserted by several governments - on the back of all this frenzied hysteria. Rebels shot it down? Probably. Russia supplied the rebels with SAMs? A completely separate question, and one that there is no evidence for whatsoever.  


    And i disagree. because..
    1)Russian Radars said there was Ukrainian SU-25 planes chasing the
    Malasyan plane very close to it..just minutes before lose contact and they showed their radars images
    that day to prove it.
    2)The Spanish Air traffic controller who told also the Ukrainian Su-25 planes where chasing the plane.. he however
    mentions two.
    3)Rebels do not have the capability to operate Buks missiles. Is not an pistol that anyone just can aim and shoot.
    The missiles needs to be "control remote guided" by radio ,is not something untrained people can do and u dont have many missiles to practice or any target too.. In Short only real professionals can operate it. To be able to shoot down anything.  Such Professionals can only come from Russia Federation. And Russia do have very well view of the Airspace in Ukraine. In Short neither Russia ,neither their Professionals did it. period. The plane was flying to high for being done by a Rebel in a manpad.. and the only qualified staff that could operated it ,could only come from Russia military and they are not idiots.. they perfectly understand how to use such sam defenses and knows the difference between civilian planes and military planes. thats part of their training. Civilians airliners their planes have a clear signal that identify them as civilian planes and any trained operator of a buk or any patsir or s-300 clearly understand. I dont think any operator in Russia of any air defense can be qualified to operate any SAM defenses until they perfectly know how to identify civilians planes. No chance they by mistake shoot a civilian
    plane.

    4)If you ever paid attention to the Photos of the plane you will see the the the projectile impacts the wing of the malasyan plane came from same altitude. So the projectiles flew parallel to the wing of the plane.
    This suggest the malasyan plane was attacked from behind left side and that it could be an air to air missile what destroyed it not the BUK defense.

    So far all the information available 100% suggest kiev did it.. Could the Rebels have done it? Not impossible for sure IF they managed to get professionals and a working BUK system.. but the factual evidence until now all of them point in the direction of kiev being behind the attack. And if that was not enough you have Strelkov saying
    many of the bodies in the plane were already death days before the plane crash. Which suggest that it was a major
    setup and FALSE FLAG attack and with full participation of other nations ,like the airport from where the malasyan plane took off. and then you have the so called Rebels so called conversation about the malasyan plane crash video that was released by kiev intelligence and encoded a day before the plane crash.
    This is HUGE. This is DIRECT EVIDENCE that kiev intelligence knew a civilian plane will crash a day earlier it happened and that it will be blamed on the Rebels ,with their faked video help.

    I guess you have not been following the discussion on Ukraine and not updated with the facts..Could the Rebels could have done by mistake with real bad luck if many IF happens ,like a very drunken professional operator????  Yes ,not impossible either that a Lightning hit a plane. But so far all the factual evidence and the unconfirmed but credible one ,we have ,until now points not only that it was a false flag attack to blame the rebels.. But that it was poorly done and kiev actually had to shoot down the plane too.

    Something interesting not being discussed is that the families of the victims of the plane could sue Ukraine Government and perhaps the airliner too in an international court for criminal actions for allowing the civilian plane fly over a warzone where planes were being shot down and being deviated from its safe route. I don't think many
    people will like to fly over a malasyan plane after 2 planes catastrophes in less than 6 months ,under mysterious
    events.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:44 pm; edited 9 times in total
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:21 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    zino wrote:Due to the short distance from Russia, is it probable that PVO has data of the tragic event? I'm speaking of track or something like that, not statements like "a Kupol was active at the moment".

    The Russians have that info, except that, very very very seldom in Russia's history they have provided that kind of info.

    If they wanted to provide that kind information, they would have very simply pointed the finger of blame towards "US", but that's not the plan.

    The Russian briefing proves that they have the information, and that they just released a bit of that information, drip-feeding the un-Russian world.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:49 pm

    I don't think there is any reason to ban me as i am just saying what i think, and i like this forum and not being a troll or something.

    I never called separatists, terrorists thats ukraine, the rest of the world don't even call them terrorists.

    And i am talking about MH17 not about the rest of the conflict, I don't even care who wins in eastern ukraine.

    And the U.S released photos of SAM systems crossing the border between ukraine and russia...
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:03 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I don't think there is any reason to ban me as i am just saying what i think, and i like this forum and not being a troll or something.

    I never called separatists, terrorists thats ukraine, the rest of the world don't even call them terrorists.

    And i am talking about MH17 not about the rest of the conflict, I don't even care who wins in eastern ukraine.

    And the U.S released photos of SAM systems crossing the border between ukraine and russia...

    US has released nothing so far, they only claim they have "evidence" but at same time they claim those evidence is from Social Media and Youtube... well so that bullshit of US satellites taking photos of BUKs from Russia to Ukraine is nothing else but talks, the reason for this is not because they believe it themselfs, no the only reason why they talk the talk is to create a perception in the western countries public to hate russians, since they want russia to war with rest of Europe.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:06 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    US has released nothing so far, they only claim they have "evidence" but at same time they claim those evidence is from Social Media and Youtube... well so that bullshit of US satellites taking photos of BUKs from Russia to Ukraine is nothing else but talks, the reason for this is not because they believe it themselfs, no the only reason why they talk the talk is to create a perception in the western countries public to hate russians, since they want russia to war with rest of Europe.

    Why do you think the US wants europe to go to war?

    They won't get better of it.
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    Post  Zivo Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:09 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    US has released nothing so far, they only claim they have "evidence" but at same time they claim those evidence is from Social Media and Youtube... well so that bullshit of US satellites taking photos of BUKs from Russia to Ukraine is nothing else but talks, the reason for this is not because they believe it themselfs, no the only reason why they talk the talk is to create a perception in the western countries public to hate russians, since they want russia to war with rest of Europe.

    Why do you think the US wants europe to go to war?

    They won't get better of it.

    Agreed.

    If the US wants Russia to go to war with anyone it's Ukraine, not Europe
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:23 am

    US know that they are about to lose the occupation of Europe they maintain since 1945 both for economic and military reasons.
    They try, desperately, to create any possible worsening of relations between Europe and Russia trying to gain time and to keep their puppet pro American governments they settled in Europe alive. They know that they can't do this by true facts, economic fundamentals and true nationalist European governments that try to regain European sovereignty so they attempt to do it by threatening the current corrupted and indebted leaderships.
    Spreading hate by falsifying and propagandizing shamelessly is a primary tool because hate is emotion and emotions blind logical decisions.
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:32 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    US has released nothing so far, they only claim they have "evidence" but at same time they claim those evidence is from Social Media and Youtube... well so that bullshit of US satellites taking photos of BUKs from Russia to Ukraine is nothing else but talks, the reason for this is not because they believe it themselfs, no the only reason why they talk the talk is to create a perception in the western countries public to hate russians, since they want russia to war with rest of Europe.

    Why do you think the US wants europe to go to war?

    They won't get better of it.

    Yes they will, that is the only way the US knows how to bring their economy out of the shit situation it is.

    WW1 US economy was dying and during the war they supplied all sides, enemy and ally with military and civilian supplies and their GDP sky rocketed, same was during WW2 the GDP of USA before the war (1938) was 800 bln USD and every single year the GDP grew and did not decline like absolute majority of other countries.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bqO9-vGMkU&list=UU5H_U6z_YhWaEUFG9fqR-qw#t6m40s (Sixth Great Powers in International Comperision, Cambridge University 1998)

    USA 1938 (800 bln USD) 1939 (869 bln USD), 1940 (943 bln USD), 1941 (1094 bln USD), 1942 (1235 bln USD), 1943 (1399 bln USD), 1944 (1499 bln USD) and by 1945 the GDP grew to 1474 bln USD or 1.474 trln USD GDP.

    in comperision

    Italy 1938 (141 bln USD) by end of war 92 bln USD 1945.
    Germany started 1938 with 351 bln USD GDP and ended with 310 bln USD GDP and Germany is the only country that had very stable GDP untill end of war which declined from 1944 when Soviet Union enterd germany.

    Japan 1938 (169 bln USD) 1945 (144 bln USD)
    Soviet Union 1938 (359 bln USD GDP) lowest was in 1942 with 274 bln USD GDP and ended with 343 bln USD GDP.

    Meaning the only country that gained an sky rocketing boost for its economy during WW1&2 was USA, same can be noticed in Vietnam and Iraq war.
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    Post  Strizh Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:10 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I don't think there is any reason to ban me as i am just saying what i think, and i like this forum and not being a troll or something.

    I never called separatists, terrorists thats ukraine, the rest of the world don't even call them terrorists.

    And i am talking about MH17 not about the rest of the conflict, I don't even care who wins in eastern ukraine.

    And the U.S released photos of SAM systems crossing the border between ukraine and russia...

    Could be, but then the question is why don't they release them?
    That means they have something to hide like for example a second plane near MH17.
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    Post  Vann7 Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:23 am

    [quote="Flyingdutchman"]
    Werewolf wrote:

    Why do you think the US wants europe to go to war?
    They won't get better of it.


    US goal is not to get Europe in a war with Russia.. they are not that optimistic.
    They will be happy enough if manage to get Ukraine and Russia fighting . ultimate goal of the white house is to break relations between Europe and Russia and they using Ukraine civil war for that. US interest in the Ukraine is to provoke both nations into a long war ,another soviet-afganistan and totally destroy any possibility for both nations to have good relations ever and have a pretext to force the EU to impose real economic sanctions on Russia. Simply USA goals is to isolate Russian business from Europe. Is an economic war nothing more ,nothing less.

    And why US wants to break Europe and Russia relations? Because the closer are the relations between Europe and Russia the weaker will become NATO ,which sole purpose is to counter and Isolate Russia. The day Russia and EU economies become very close and very strong and their relations very friendly ,it will be the end of NATO and the end of american leadership.  So you can see early examples of that already with France refusing to cancel the mistral sale to Russia even when the US senate ordered it..  and the EU negativity on imposing real sanctions on Russia economy ,because it will also damage their economies. USA simply will never be able to lead any war anywhere in the world ,or do any sanctions on anyone without Europe help. Specially if they stop using the american dollar and move to another currency as france is already proposing in the EU.  And Russia and CHina have been proposing some time ago too.

    Said in another way.. The day Europe and Russia gets very close in trade and relations.. it will be the end of United States. Because they could move away from the US dollar and american banks andend isolated world wide. Without Asia-BRICS and Europe ,the US economy will collapse and will become a third world nation overnight.  Cool
    This is why US and major allies very concerned at the energy dependence of Europe with Russia ,and any closer relations between them.. Russia having all the Asian major economies in their side and Europe it will be the end of US dollar and its artificial economy ,that never pay its debts.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:43 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Strizh Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:27 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    US has released nothing so far, they only claim they have "evidence" but at same time they claim those evidence is from Social Media and Youtube... well so that bullshit of US satellites taking photos of BUKs from Russia to Ukraine is nothing else but talks, the reason for this is not because they believe it themselfs, no the only reason why they talk the talk is to create a perception in the western countries public to hate russians, since they want russia to war with rest of Europe.

    Why do you think the US wants europe to go to war?

    They won't get better of it.

    The most important for the US is it's national security.
    That means being the leading world power so nobody can harm the US.
    Emerging powers like Russia with strong ties to EU are dangerous for the US. Because the EU itself could be dangerous one day and being not 100% inline with the US policy means a huge security issue for the US. Losing the control over EU would degraded the US in the next centuries to the 3rd placeof the world powers. That would not allow them to act as they want. And that means they need to keep the EU inline and must slow down every political ambitions of the EU. And for sure also for  saving the EU as a market for their LNG gas.
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    Post  Vann7 Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:07 am

    This is a perfect example of the greatest fears of the US state department..

    Under Fire, France Stands by Mistral Warship Sale to Russia

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/hollande-says-russia-will-get-first-mistral-warship-but-2nd-in-question/503865.html

    PARIS/ST. NAZAIRE – French President Francois Hollande [u] won broad domestic applause on Tuesday for defying allies Britain and the United States[/u] by confirming plans to deliver a helicopter carrier to Russia, with one backer dismissing their objections as hypocritical. wrote:

    "Hollande is not backing down. He is delivering the first [ship] despite the fact he is being asked not to," Jean-Christophe Cambadelis, head of Hollande's ruling Socialist Party, told i>Tele television on Tuesday. "This is a false debate led by hypocrites ... When you see how many [Russian] oligarchs have sought refuge in London, David Cameron should start by cleaning up his own backyard,” Cambadelis said. wrote:

    That is disobedience in their alliance and siding with Russia in business. This encourage more dissidence in Europe
    towards US leadership.. and this is not good for them. That Europe start to put in first place their own interest no matter what americans say.  the last nail in the US leadership coffin ,the point of no return, will be South Stream pipeline. IF Russia manage to pull the project ,regardless of US opposition. It will bypass Ukraine and it will not have any other use the country for the americans to blockade Russia energy business.
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:54 am

    Zivo wrote:What's wrong Sujoy, are you not convinced by their social media proof?

    Yes, their social media has convinced me that there are NO satellite images .

    To be sure BUK is a complex that consists of 3 vehicles. The TELAR BUK with the missiles,  a command vehicle that passes the data feed and a radar vehicle that is usually located far  away from the missile launcher .

    So far the only pics that western media / social media has shown is that of the TELAR BUK with the missiles . So what happened to the remaining 2 vehicles ? Disappeared ???

    Meaning whosoever used the BUK has developed such outstanding skills that  he/she was able to guide the missile to the aircraft without any radar feed .

    We are un-necessarily spending 5-6 months in training our soldiers in using the BUK . A simple trip to Donetsk would have sufficed .
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    Post  arpakola Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:52 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    Zivo wrote:What's wrong Sujoy, are you not convinced by their social media proof?

    Yes, their social media has convinced me that there are NO satellite images .

    To be sure BUK is a complex that consists of 3 vehicles. The TELAR BUK with the missiles,  a command vehicle that passes the data feed and a radar vehicle that is usually located far  away from the missile launcher .

    So far the only pics that western media / social media has shown is that of the TELAR BUK with the missiles . So what happened to the remaining 2 vehicles ? Disappeared ???

    Meaning whosoever used the BUK has developed such outstanding skills that  he/she was able to guide the missile to the aircraft without any radar feed .

    We are un-necessarily spending 5-6 months in training our soldiers in using the BUK . A simple trip to Donetsk would have sufficed .

    Well.. partialy true.
    Actually the telar has the painting radar itself and theoritically is able to shoot by it self.
    The problem is .. that this is almost impossible to do for a plane flying at 33kft .. almost not seen by naked eye.. if you dont have the acquisition radar component  at least.
    So .. the missile fired by the Seps is most unlikely
    ========================================

    http://crooksandliars.com/2014/07/ron-paul-putin-too-smart-down-malaysian
    Ron Paul: Putin Too 'Smart' To Down Malaysian Plane So It Might Be A Ukraine Conspiracy
    Former Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) recently defended Russian President Vladimir Putin against critics in the United States who had said that he was complicit in the deaths of nearly 300 people because because Russian weapons were likely used to shoot down a Malaysian Airlines plane.

    "Everybody's angling to propagandize and make their position known," Paul told Newsmax on Friday. "So, I think it would be unwise to say, 'The Russians did or the Ukraine government did it or the rebels did it.'"

    "Who would benefit the most from this? And of course, if it's blamed on Russia, then of course, the Ukraine government would get the most benefit," he explained. "Since Russia would have the least benefit, I think Putin is a little bit smarter than that. I don't think he would ever come close to participating in act like this."

    Newsmax host John Bachman pointed out that many considered Putin "complicit" in the tragedy because some of the weapons had been supplied by Russia.

    "That may well be true, but guess what, ISIS has a lot of American weapons," Paul declared. "We sent weapons into Syria to help the rebels and al Qaeda ends up getting it — it doesn't mean that our American government and Obama deliberately wanted ISIS to get American weapons."

    "So, who gets the weapons is a big difference between how they got them and what happened and what the motivations were," the tea party-backed libertarian insisted. "So even if it was a Russian weapon, it doesn't mean a lot."

    http://rt.com/usa/158448-ron-paul-us-involved-ukraine/
    Ron Paul: Why is US involved in Ukraine?
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    Post  arpakola Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:12 am

    some Maps of action during 11-22 June.. self claimed true..
    http://i65.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0723/51/4c9bb06e153b735d1c570cd1deff3a51.jpg
    http://i65.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0723/99/c5e57bf5de84a8e653b0bcaff6c28f99.jpg
    http://i65.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0723/97/1e8d4951441a862fd942b1c86af88f97.jpg
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 D7d056516a79e5bbb89c353adf3cee85


    ====================

    graphic!!
    North of Donetsk, destroyed Ukrainian tank and Ukrainian soldiers of Kiev Regime.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kT7MHJWUgIw
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=222546&d=1406084809
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 Attachment
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    Post  arpakola Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:32 am

    http://www.kentucky.com/2014/07/22/3347369/us-officials-we-still-dont-know.html
    U.S. officials: We still don’t know who shot down Malaysian airliner


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 BtMWNtjCYAAJqyJ

    ======================================

    http://lifenews.ru/news/137145
    Стрелков: ополченцы оставили Карловку, Кожевню и Червоную ЗарюГлавнокомандующий армией Донбасса заявил, что украинские военные разблокировали аэропорт в Донецке.


    Last edited by arpakola on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  RTN Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:33 am

    arpakola wrote:So .. the missile fired by the Seps is most unlikely

    There are no satellite images to prove this either . Just like the US , Russia too has not produced any evidence to prove who fired the missile .

    The families of the victims deserve a genuine answer and all that we see is that both the US and Russia are busy playing Monday morning quarterback .

    298 innocent lives were lost . This is NOT nothing .
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:34 am

    arpakola wrote:some Maps of action during 11-22 June.. self claimed true..

    11-22 July
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    Post  arpakola Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:41 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    arpakola wrote:some Maps of action during 11-22 June.. self claimed true..

    11-22 July
    yiap...
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    Post  arpakola Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:13 am

    RTN wrote:
    arpakola wrote:So .. the missile fired by the Seps is most unlikely

    There are no satellite images to prove this either . Just like the US , Russia too has not produced any evidence to prove who fired the missile .

    The families of the victims deserve a genuine answer and all that we see is that both the US and Russia are busy playing Monday morning quarterback .

    298 innocent lives were lost . This is NOT nothing .

    Well USA said has satelite images.. prooving.. whatever.. so we expect tha photos

    From the other side Russia has prodused sat fotos showing the Ukranian buks transfered in close proximity of the Seps area .. opent the aquisition radar .. and disapearing after the downed plane.. further more made 10 questions still unanswered by the ukranian goverment.
    hense I dont understant realy your wonders..
    =========================================
    http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/
    10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash

    1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?
    “Please note that the plane stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then it deviated from the route to the north,” said Kartopolov.

    2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?
    “The maximum deviation from the left border of the corridor was 14 km. Following that, we can see the plane maneuvering to return to the corridor, yet the Malaysian crew did not get a chance to complete the maneuver. At 17.20, the plane began to lose speed, and at 17.23 it disappeared from Russian radars.”

    3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?
    “As far as we know, the Ukrainian military had three or four air defense battalions equipped with Buk-M1 SAM systems deployed in the vicinity of Donetsk on the day of the crash. This system is capable of hitting targets within the range of 35 km at the altitude of up to 22 km.”

    4. Why did Kiev deploy BUK missile systems on the edge of militia-controlled zones directly before the tragedy?
    “We have satellite photos of the places where Ukraine had its air defense units deployed in the southeastern parts of the country. The first three photos were made on July 14. The first photo shows Buk launchers 8 km northwest of Lugansk. You can clearly see a TELAR and two TELs. The second photo shows radars 5 km north of Donetsk. You can see two TARs along with other equipment and technical structures. The third photo shows air defense systems north of Donetsk. You can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures.

    “Here’s a photo of the same area made on July 17. Please note that the launcher has disappeared. The fifth photo shows a battery of Buk missiles at the village of Zaroshchenskoye 50 km east of Donetsk and 8 km south of Shakhtyorsk on the morning of the same day. The sixth photo shows the same area on July 18. As you can see, the battery has left.”

    5. On the day of the crash Kiev intensified Kupol-M1 9S18 radar activity, key BUK system components. Why?
    “Also, July 17 saw increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system. Here on this chart you see that there were seven radars operating on July 15, eight radars operating on July 16, and nine radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found.”

    6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?
    “There were three civilian planes in the area performing their regular flights at this time. There was a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore at 17:17, there was a flight from Paris to Taipei at 17:24, and then there was the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.”

    “Also, Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

    “The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

    7. Why was the military jet flying at so close to a passenger plane?
    “At 17:21’35, with [the Boeing’s] velocity having dropped to 200 kilometers per hour, a new mark detecting an airborne object appears at the spot of the Boeing’s destruction. This new airborne object was continuously detected for the duration of four minutes by the radar stations Ust-Donetsk and Buturinskaya. An air traffic controller requested the characteristics of the new airborne object, but was unable to get any readings on its parameters – most likely due to the fact that the new aircraft was not equipped with a secondary surveillance radar transponder, which is a distinctive feature of military aircraft,” said Makushev.

    “Detecting the new aircraft became possible as it started to ascend. Further changes in the airborne object’s coordinates suggest that it was hovering above the Boeing 777’s crash site, monitoring of the situation.

    “Ukrainian officials earlier claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day. As you can see, that is not true.”

    8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?
    “I’d like to say that the information we have presented here is based on objective and reliable data from various technical systems – unlike the groundless accusations made against Russia,” said Kartopolov.

    9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?

    10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?
    “US officials claim they have satellite photographs proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched by the militia. But no one has seen these photographs so far. As far as we know, there was indeed a US satellite flying over southeastern Ukraine on July 17 from 17:06 to 17:21 Moscow time.

    “This satellite is part of an experimental system designed to track and monitor the launches of missiles of various ranges. If our US colleagues have imagery from this satellite, they should release it for the international community to examine it in detail. This may be a coincidence, but the US satellite flew over Ukraine at exactly the same time when the Malaysian airliner crashed.”


    flamming_python
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:18 am

    The Russian MoD makes a good case but I can't shake the feeling that they are simply covering for a massive rebel fk-up, skillfully pointing out not completely true or untrue statements, the Ukrainians own crude propaganda efforts and information that has so far been missing. But there are many explanations for such things.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 Empty MalAir MH17

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:25 am

    flamming_python wrote:The Russian MoD makes a good case but I can't shake the feeling that they are simply covering for a massive rebel fk-up, skillfully pointing out not completely true or untrue statements, the Ukrainians own crude propaganda efforts and information that has so far been missing. But there are many explanations for such things.

    I thought the change of the MH17 route on 17th from the one used the previous days proves it was a false-flag exercise.

    The Novorussians couldn't have ordered MalAir to change route.
    Sujoy
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Sujoy Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:54 am

    flamming_python wrote:I can't shake the feeling that they are simply covering for a massive rebel fk-up, skillfully pointing out not completely true or untrue statements, the Ukrainians own crude propaganda efforts and information that has so far been missing. But there are many explanations for such things.

    Maybe the "rebels" , "separatist" did shoot down the aircraft . However , that raises a few questions :


    (1) US sat images would have shown the BUK inside Donetsk . But so far there is no confirmation from the US side .

    (2) If the rebels do have the BUK why does Ukraine regularly send in An 26 and Su 25 inside rebel hold areas ? So that trigger happy rebels can shoot down planes at random ?

    (3) Within a 25 km radius from the site there were 2 more passenger jets in that area . A Singapore airline jet and an Air India jet . Why didn't the rebels shoot down all the 3 aircrafts mistaking them as Military aircrafts ?





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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:12 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The Russian MoD makes a good case but I can't shake the feeling that they are simply covering for a massive rebel fk-up, skillfully pointing out not completely true or untrue statements, the Ukrainians own crude propaganda efforts and information that has so far been missing. But there are many explanations for such things.

    1)Strelkov says many of the passengers bodies were in a big state of Decomposition when they arrived. Shows they were death already before the accident.. this is HUGE  if what he says is true. Major False flag .
    2)The SPanish Air controller says SU-25s were chasing the plane 3 minutes before the plane lose contact and kiev did it.
    3)Russian radars shows SU-25s climbing into an international flight path very nearn the malasyan plane..
    4)Russia satelites shows BUKs missiles deployed near the Rebels zone in range of the Civilian plane.
    5)Ukraine Intelligence shows a fake video of Rebels conversation about the plane that was encoded a day EARLIER    the plane crash..
    6)The commercial plane change course and leave the international safe route and move directly into the war zone.

    Everything strongly points to a major False Flag plane attack.. whats wrong with you?  are you saying that Russia is lying and Ukraine is telling the truth? I simply don't understand how can anyone with a brain cannot see the whole thing as a setup. a False flag attack done by Ukraine.  So please explain how in Hell Russia military missile forces or Russian Professional operators helping the Rebels? operating Buks missiles could become monkeys overnight and not recognize a civilian plane? SOmething that is part of their training?

    IF you cannot come with a valid argument why you think Rebels did it.. then dont comment and  stop repeating the same idiocy of the west media. Is fucking tiring to explain the same thing again and again. it was a fucking FALSE FLAG event . And American Independent Media are saying the same. Please Just show us your evidence Russia or the Rebels screw it .Your feelings in the investigation are worthless is not about feelings is about EVIDENCE and FACTS. So bring your evidence or simply dont comment about what your Ouija board tells you .  because everything so far that have been presented by Kiev and Western media have been already 100% debunked.  Im not saying mistakes are impossible by any side in wars. Even if the Rebels did it ,(that i seen nothing to proof that) they cannot be blamed because is a warzone not a tourist zone. Most people just repeat the same western propaganda without any evidence. Here check what real Air traffic controllers says about the whole thing ,that you blame "the Rebels did". IS not Russia propaganda..even american neutral media is discussing the fraud.





    Last edited by Vann7 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
    RTN
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 24 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  RTN Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:30 pm

    arpakola wrote:

    “Also, Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

    “The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

    This is a blatant lie . Russia has not produced any evidence to suggest that a Su 25 was tailing MH-17 .

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