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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

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    Post  Regular Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:10 pm

    That dead brit... Rus forums are saying it's just a guy resting... And most likely he is not the brit, only the uniform. I wonder how the guy who weared it would feel to see it Very Happy
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:02 am

    Russian checkpoint on Ukraine border comes under fire

    Amazing the most important news not posted..  The National Guard shelled the check point in Rostov Region ,with many
    civilians womens and children near trying to enter. If the artillery lands in a different place ,could have been a real catastrophe
    of civilians killed ,  One employee of the border point was nearly killed..  

    http://rt.com/news/167392-russia-checkpoint-fire-ukraine/#_=_

    This is nothing small.. This is an intentionally attack on Russia and will be more than enough to declare war on Kiev..
    Because they are targeting civilians indiscriminately . A baby was in critical condition yesterday after a shelling and his mother killed.
    he seemed to have part of the face destroyed.

    Make no mistake.. this take things to a new level and Right now Russia will be under its legitimate right to invade..
    for the simply reason that it was an intentional attack by the Fascist army. also The CIA and NATO could easily hijack real cease of fire
    and take control /Bribe a battalion with money,so they do not follow any kiev orders  at any time ,that they choose to negotiate with Russia.

    On another note.. i find disgusting how Russia is so reactive ,always 3 steps behind and could not figure out this will happen.
    That it was a matter of time that the kiev fascist national Guard will be attacking Russia. Didn't Russia have a thousand of S-400s,
    S-300s ,Pantsirs ,and many other air defenses to defend their airspace? How can a simple Artillery attack penetrate Russia territory ,
    and nearly kill ,destroy a checkpoint.. is that a joke? or Russian do not have anything to protect against artillery?  Or we are only observing
    Total Incompetence of Russia leadership? that waits first a catastrophe to happen in rostov ,before they start deploying proper defenses?
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:14 am

    Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells, any fire from Ukrainian territory should be immediately triangulated and pinpointed by Glonass, followed by precise counter-battery fire. Will take them out pretty quick.

    Seriously, Russian forces can so mop the floor with all of the Ukraine's so called army, and its militias, etc.. that it's not even funny.
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:33 am

    flamming_python wrote:Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells, any fire from Ukrainian territory should be immediately triangulated and pinpointed by Glonass, followed by precise counter-battery fire. Will take them out pretty quick.

    Seriously, Russian forces can so mop the floor with all of the Ukraine's so called army, and its militias, etc.. that it's not even funny.

    we tried out exactly the same strategy in our AOO in Uruzgan with the PZH2000 linked to our early warning detection and counter plotting. the system itself is good, before their rounds land the system already computed the launch location. but the problem is after the first time they receive return fire the enemy knows you are tracking their firing positions and the next time they will fire from urban area's trying to trick you on firing on detected co-ordinates and level people's homes in the process. this counter-artillery system gives co-ordinates and not information about the area you are potentially firing at.

    we found out the potential of the enemy "luring out" our return fire with our 155MM howitzer shells was a far greater risk than the benefits of using counter-artillery systems blindly. we first double-checked on a map where the fire-coordinates lie. it gave the enemy time to break off and disengage in the meantime. if Russia pursues this concept of Strategy against Kiev they will run in the same problem as we had.
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:12 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells, any fire from Ukrainian territory should be immediately triangulated and pinpointed by Glonass, followed by precise counter-battery fire. Will take them out pretty quick.

    Seriously, Russian forces can so mop the floor with all of the Ukraine's so called army, and its militias, etc.. that it's not even funny.

    we tried out exactly the same strategy in our AOO in Uruzgan with the PZH2000 linked to our early warning detection and counter plotting. the system itself is good, before their rounds land the system already computed the launch location. but the problem is after the first time they receive return fire the enemy knows you are tracking their firing positions and the next time they will fire from urban area's trying to trick you on firing on detected co-ordinates and level people's homes in the process. this counter-artillery system gives co-ordinates and not information about the area you are potentially firing at.

    we found out the potential of the enemy "luring out" our return fire with  our 155MM howitzer shells was a far greater risk than the benefits of using counter-artillery systems blindly. we first double-checked on a map where the fire-coordinates lie. it gave the enemy time to break off and disengage in the meantime. if Russia pursues this concept of Strategy against Kiev they will run in the same problem as we had.

    So are the no defense equipment in the world that can intercept and destroy in Air mortar shells ? and any kind of artillery attacks or rocket artillery attacks? Because retaliation is not much consoling if for example a hundred civilians die in the artillery attack.
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    Post  Regular Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:39 am

    Theoretically short range AD systems could do it, practically.. I doubt it. Israeli Iron Dome have intercepted mortar rounds, but it's less success than intercepting bigger targets. Russia should think of of mobile iron dome or similar system that would only target arty. But I doubt it would work against constant barrage..
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    Post  arpakola Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:49 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells, any fire from Ukrainian territory should be immediately triangulated and pinpointed by Glonass, followed by precise counter-battery fire. Will take them out pretty quick.

    Seriously, Russian forces can so mop the floor with all of the Ukraine's so called army, and its militias, etc.. that it's not even funny.

    we tried out exactly the same strategy in our AOO in Uruzgan with the PZH2000 linked to our early warning detection and counter plotting. the system itself is good, before their rounds land the system already computed the launch location. but the problem is after the first time they receive return fire the enemy knows you are tracking their firing positions and the next time they will fire from urban area's trying to trick you on firing on detected co-ordinates and level people's homes in the process. this counter-artillery system gives co-ordinates and not information about the area you are potentially firing at.

    we found out the potential of the enemy "luring out" our return fire with  our 155MM howitzer shells was a far greater risk than the benefits of using counter-artillery systems blindly. we first double-checked on a map where the fire-coordinates lie. it gave the enemy time to break off and disengage in the meantime. if Russia pursues this concept of Strategy against Kiev they will run in the same problem as we had.

    dont make it too difficult.
    Gun batteries and armour concetrations , mortars MBTs etc.. can be spoted from people on the ground , giving trough gps/glonass the exact location. Then smerch can take over (with glonass guided missiles ), and wipe them out. This will give an 90 KM safe area from heavy artilery and MBT ..
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    Post  arpakola Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:10 am

    Werewolf wrote:DNR news claims that anti-fascist forces of Donetsk have seized a ukrainian military base with 221 tanks, 288 APCs, 12 AT guns, 18 Grad BM-21, 183 IFVs and 12 mortar systems.



    Sounds to much to believe but i hope its true.
    Can you attach the URL of this bid please ?
    Thnks
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    Post  Werewolf Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:23 am

    arpakola wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:DNR news claims that anti-fascist forces of Donetsk have seized a ukrainian military base with 221 tanks, 288 APCs, 12 AT guns, 18 Grad BM-21, 183 IFVs and 12 mortar systems.



    Sounds to much to believe but i hope its true.
    Can you attach the URL of this bid please ?
    Thnks

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjjnIbfg2U
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:59 am

    flamming_python wrote:Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells,
    Seriously, Russian forces can so mop the floor with all of the Ukraine's so called army, and its militias, etc.. that it's not even funny.

    Something like this ,will be useful for Donetsk Forces..



    with 30km range and direct precision , it could bomb any neonazi position ,and cause a massive explosion.
    Perhaps if they could find a way to create a fixed custom canon ,home made that can fire such lazer shells.
    So it doesn't look too obvious Russia is helping.
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    Post  Asf Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:32 pm

    Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells

    Krasnopol is laser-guided iirc so there must be recon teams guiding shells on the ukrainian territory. Counter-battary radars for target designation should be enough imho


    Last edited by Asf on Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Asf Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:33 pm

    So are the no defense equipment in the world that can intercept and destroy in Air mortar shells ?

    Only rumored super-puper US lasers. And counter-battery fire
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:56 pm

    About 80 Ukrainian border guards crossed to Russia


    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_21/About-80-Ukrainian-border-guards-crossed-to-Russia-5480/


    This is pretty funny. You have a situation now ,where not only the Rebels use Russia as a safe zone.. not only civilians but also
    the Ukraine Border guards..  Laughing 

    So it looks like somehow even though Russia is seens as the one to blame by many Ukrainians for the war..the Ukraine Army ,perhaps its majority do not  see Russia as their enemy or at least have some level of trust in them..  80 Border Guards crossed to Russia ,2 of them
    wounded and asked for protection.. I think news like this.. will remain hidden in Kiev CIA media for Obvious reasons ,not convenient for
    Ukrainians to see that Russia is reasonable and neutral in the war and help both sides.   Wink

    If it wasn't because people are dying ,it will be like kids playing seek and hide Game.. or a capture the border flag.  Laughing
    The more time the conflict pass , the worse will be for kiev , Because more and more Ukrainians will see Russia not as their enemies
    and that they should not be fighting each other..

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:23 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells

    Krasnopol is laser-guided iirc so there must be recon teams guiding shells on the ukrainian territory. Counter-battary radars for target designation should be enough imho

    Can't they be guided by GLONASS?

    Well I suppose some conventional shells fired by artillery systems with GLONASS support and counter-battery radars will be enough actually, and cheaper. Main thing is that they should be on constant readiness.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:32 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Russia needs to have some Msta howitzers on standby with Krasnopol artillery shells, any fire from Ukrainian territory should be immediately triangulated and pinpointed by Glonass, followed by precise counter-battery fire. Will take them out pretty quick.

    Seriously, Russian forces can so mop the floor with all of the Ukraine's so called army, and its militias, etc.. that it's not even funny.

    we tried out exactly the same strategy in our AOO in Uruzgan with the PZH2000 linked to our early warning detection and counter plotting. the system itself is good, before their rounds land the system already computed the launch location. but the problem is after the first time they receive return fire the enemy knows you are tracking their firing positions and the next time they will fire from urban area's trying to trick you on firing on detected co-ordinates and level people's homes in the process. this counter-artillery system gives co-ordinates and not information about the area you are potentially firing at.

    we found out the potential of the enemy "luring out" our return fire with  our 155MM howitzer shells was a far greater risk than the benefits of using counter-artillery systems blindly. we first double-checked on a map where the fire-coordinates lie. it gave the enemy time to break off and disengage in the meantime. if Russia pursues this concept of Strategy against Kiev they will run in the same problem as we had.

    Ah so good in theory, bad in practice. Gotchyaa.
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    Post  Asf Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:55 pm

    Can't they be guided by GLONASS?

    Krasnopol-M may be


    this counter-artillery system gives co-ordinates and not information about the area you are potentially firing at. 

    Isn't it combined with some kind of GPS maps?
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:03 pm






    this counter-artillery system gives co-ordinates and not information about the area you are potentially firing at. 

    Isn't it combined with some kind of GPS maps?[/quote]

    no, our NATO charts we use for troop locations and terrain features such as rivers, city's, terrain elevations etc, are so-callled staff charts. they are defined by a system called MGRS (millitary grid refference system) that devide the world into large squares, and in those squares its devided into smaller squares untill you eventually hit a co-ordinate like 41 Sierra, Quebec Sierrra 8473 6391. witch will get you in a map location that points to a 10 by ten meter area in real life on the map.

    you can shorten that co-ordinate down to like 41 Sierra, Quebec Sierra 84 63. where you then are reffering to an 100 by 100 box depending on the scale of map you are reffering to (in this case 41 Sierra, Quebec Sierra. but there are no GPS co-ordinates in the maps involved. mostly because his system was implemented full NATO wide among all forces and branches so everyone would "talk" the same language over the radio in a Soviet-Nato war. before GPS was adopted in weapon systems as a way of guidance.

    NATO counter-artillery systems only use GPS to determine its "assigned friendly" assets position related to the counter-artillery radar and ultimatly to the radar operator's computer. and the radar detects incomming fire, then takes the friendly type of artillery specifications assigned to it. takes its GPS locations and METEO Data and quickly calculates for all assets the return fire solution. it gives angle of fire, charge value and distance for any warhead proximity detonation setting. the counter-artillery operator gets indeed a GPS co-ordinate of the incomming fire, but as you see its useless in the NATO system of MGRS (millitary grid refference system) into BMS (Battlefield Management System) because its based on a completely different protocol. its why "we" had to run the GPS co-ordinate trough a computer first and give us a location on a map that you pretty much can compare to Google Maps. and cross-refference it with our MGRS about what was registered there millitarily before we where sure at what we where firing at.

    its the downside of working with two different refference systems that do not share the same protocol. and GPS itself is anything but holy. you might not notice it much with your TomTom in your car telling you where to go. but Solar black-spots and Solar flares really messes with GPS weapon systems. "pinpoint accuracy" then can get an deviation of a dozen meters or more. its why "Lazing" targets still remain important for NATO to make sure the secondary targeting protocols in the warheads correct the weapon inflight and over-ride to follow the laserpoint instead of their programmed GPS co-ordinates in case they are wrong. its why NATO does not addopt a GPS-dependant refference system and sticks to the MGRS-protocol.

    and someone asked in the thread about a counter-artillery weapon. NATO is using it and its called C-RAM (Counter Rocket, Artillery and Mortar) we test-deployed it too in Iraq and Afghanistan and is highly succesfull against smallammounts of incomming fire. (unless you install an fire-control and more systems that prioritises incomming fire) when a fully loaded Graz shoots itself empty i would not bet my life tough a couple of C-RAM guns would knock them out before they strike unless there are more C-RAM installations.

    C-RAM in action in Iraq, do not mind the british guy losing his mind. its the footage of the C-RAM engaging incomming fire that counts.


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    Post  macedonian Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:44 pm

    Ukraine crisis: Putin gives ceasefire qualified backing
    Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he supports a peace plan tabled by Ukraine - as long as it includes "practical action" to start talks.

    BBC wrote:He said Kiev must negotiate and make compromises with pro-Russian rebels for the plan to be "viable and realistic".
    Mr Putin also said a week-long truce - declared by President Petro Poroshenko - must not be used as an "ultimatum".
    Clashes have continued in eastern Ukraine, with rebel attacks overnight injuring six border guards.
    The separatist fighters have dismissed the truce, accusing the Ukrainian army of violating their own ceasefire.
    Meanwhile, the US has imposed sanctions - including asset freezes - against seven pro-Russian leaders in Ukraine.
    Western leaders have threatened additional sanctions against Russia, which they accuse of stoking tension in Ukraine. Moscow denies the claim.

    More @ BBC

    Smilar News on RT
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    Post  macedonian Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:21 pm

    Another Strelkov interview:

    Strelkov wrote:Q: Various Ukrainian mass media outlets published information about the losses of the [Ukrainian] punitive forces, and [according to them] the total figure is approximately 35 dead and 40 wounded.

    A: If our sources in Izyum are to be trusted, the number of wounded, that were relocated there or sent to Kharkov after this battle, exceeds 300 men. However, I cannot guarantee this information – [it came to us] by way of the gossip mill. On the other hand, the numbers publicized by the Ukie media may well be right. Our losses in dead and wounded are approximately half of [the enemy losses] – our battalion was not destroyed, merely dispersed. It is now slowly coming together again. Once they are all back, our irretrievable losses will become clear. For now, there are 15 wounded in the hospital. They were evacuated in the first hours of the battle and at the end.

    Q: What happened to the morning advance of the government forces? Are they still standing in columns, or have they been turned around to go hunt the tank forces [of the Novorossiya Armed Forces (“NAF”)]?

    A: They turned around and left, all of them. Our battle group (from Lisichansk) has again occupied Yampol – those fighters that were unable to break through across the bridges to the south shore are now returning as well. They are taking up their previous positions. I am glad that the appeal to Russia was not left unanswered – the mere movement of Russian forces toward the border eliminated the Ukies’ attempt to break through to our rear.

    Q: What is the status of the preparations to repel the Ukrainian army’s assault on Slavyansk?

    A: The situation has changed dramatically. In the morning, we were preparing to repel a decisive attack, and now … I won’t tell you what we are preparing to do … (smiling).

    Q: Igor Ivanovich, can you please comment Valeriy Bolotov’s statement about the urgent subordination to the Lugansk Republic of Alexey Mozgovoi’s units?

    A: Mozgovoi is subordinated to the headquarters of the DPR (“Donetsk People’s Republic”) militia. And, for a long time now, he has been fighting in close coordination with [our forces]. Successfully fighting. His weapons and ammunition supplies come from us. In this case, Bolotov is engaged in misplaced parochialism.

    Q: Igor Ivanovich, would you please explain what is being done with respect to the apparent disunity of the [militia] detachments? Is anyone trying to solve this dilemma, trying to organize unified headquarters of LPR (“Lugansk People’s Republic”) and DPR under the command of a single Commander-in-Chief?

    A: What is there to explain? Even in DPR we have no single [unified] headquarters. And you are asking that there be one for two republics … When the time is right, there will be. An army should be commanded by a single person, who is both a military professional and an experienced administrator. I am hoping that some volunteer general with combat experience and combined arms leadership [skills], able to build high-level contacts with Russian colleagues comes to our aid. Otherwise, this guerilla warfare will last a very long time.
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    Post  macedonian Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:26 pm

    BTW the whole country seems to be going nuts.
    I've just watched a video of a guy being arrested in Odessa.
    His crime?!
    He threw his own Grandmother out the window while shouting "Glory to Ukraine".
    It's like one large mental asylum...
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    Post  Viktor Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:49 pm

    Just great article to read by Sergej Glazjev

    Why America Maidan
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:17 am



    So what happened with the latest Big Column of Tanks and apcs with flags from Crimea? and what about the 200 tanks and 300 apcs
    that supposedly the Rebels captured? Such a big number can dramatically turn the tide in any war even if at least half of them repaired
    and they get munition.
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    Post  zino Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:29 am

    just returned from my pub..  What a Face 
    to the people of Donbass, in arms or civilians.. you will win!
    Dziga Vertov: Entuziazm (Simfoniya Donbassa) (1930)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu6LqUHp3fw
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:56 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    So what happened with the latest Big Column of Tanks and apcs with flags from Crimea?  and what about the 200 tanks and 300 apcs
    that supposedly the Rebels captured?   Such a big number can dramatically turn the tide in any war even if at least half of them repaired
    and they get munition.

    The news regarding the tank depot is contradictory. But there are more videos appearing with rebel tanks in different parts of the front

    Town of Torez, probably 20th of June



    Maybe related news....apparently, the first tank battalion has been formed

    First tank battalion of the Army of the SE
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:02 am

    Also, first solid confirmation of US mercenary in Ukraine  Question 

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 27 Iu5D-0mkxxg

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