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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Airbornewolf
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Airbornewolf Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:33 pm

    macedonian wrote:Attack on the Embassy ongoing...
    Russian Foreign Ministry issued this statement:
    Ru MFA wrote:MOSCOW, June 14, 22:19 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia has expressed indignation with provocative actions at the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.
    “Russia demanded Ukraine take necessary measures for ensuring security of Russian diplomats in Kiev,” the ministry says.
    The ministry has placed a link to the live events at the Russian Embassy in Ukraine on the Facebook page.

    “See and remember the so-called European values,” the ministry says.

    I like that red part. Nice way to troll the Ukrainians/Americans and especially the 'Europeans' and their (often variable) 'values'.
     afro

    i agree fully with that quote, i am a western european, wether i like it or not. but all i can say i find this and the rest of what is going on ukraine just sickening, the western stench of hypocricy going trough the roof and beyond. and not a single word of what is going on now at the embassy's in the western Media's as usual.

    at moments where its just so obvious where the West is willing to embrace such vile ideologies of hate, violence and genocide just because it suits their geo-political strategy's and where world war 2 was fought over for crying out loud.... i honestly feel ashamed to all the people that died in WW2. the EU got its freedom paid in blood of others....so those "heroic sacrifices" could be sold out barely 60 years later.

    and i really do not say this because im on this forum and take a "negative West" view for community sakes. if there is something i believe thats wrong and (perhaps) not to the liking of the general opinion i speak my mind too. in a respectable way of course but i do speak out. i try to be just a straight to the point i can be to what i think.

    often i thought about what i could do, but thats how i ended up in the millitary in the first place. i always firmly believed i could bring "peace and security" by way of being the best i could be in the millitary. i was a 15 year old naive dumbass that tried to make a difference in the world, that tought was pretty much fast broken appart when i saw "we" NATO where not in Afghanistan for the people but for Political benefits of politicians and America's dirty geo-politics. 2 months into Afghanistan and getting a direct order from your goverment to abandon a town to its fate of a reprisal attack of the Taliban was just the start of hating the weasel politicians and my first taste of what the U.S foreign policy both millitary and political really is beyond the western propaganda.

    whining about it does not accomplish anything either, but the feeling of "injustice" i guess just keeps burning. im 28 now and i got a fammily to maintain with three dogs so i cant run off to any conflictzone either anymore. its just not fighting to possible contribute, i was more thinking to contribute then in medical training, tactical combat training, improvised anti-armour warfare and so there are several other things i could come up with. if NATO deploy's killers against the russian-speaking eastern ukraine at least one NATO killer could help the east ukraine i figured. on one side i feel i do not belong there in someone's country as a "foreign fighter". on the other side i feel it does not matter much when americans are killing there ukrainian people "on contract" for Nazi kiev already. in the end tough i cant walk away for my responsibility's here at home now. im sure it goes for others here on the forum too that now have responsibility's lying at home.

    it ends up i guess with war being brutal, and its never easy to be powerless watching at the front-row seat of internet about injustice being done to people. but in the end the worst suffering are the people going trough it.losing loved ones, their houses and possesions, living in uncertainty of getting their next meal or if a bullet or bomb hits them. and thinking themselves how the rest of the world can look on while eating their dinner at the T.V. say. "oh thats terrible" and 5 minutes later forget about them because they discuss the latest episode of Jersey shore or Miley cyrus twerking on MTV.

    i keep voting for anti-eu party's and sign every protest inquiry against the E.U policy i can and bringing my point of view up in discussion when Ukraine/Russia comes up in the conversation and argument about the "insanity" of what the west is doing. these are NOT my morals and value's what is being done in the name of "the West" but i cant see i cant do much about it more except going there to ukraine and that is not an option now.

    sorry for the mostly personal rant, just my point of view on this matter.



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    Vann7


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    Post  Vann7 Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:00 pm



    Im really wondering whats really US plans with Ukraine.. by trying to lure Russia inside. Yes it could be to give them another afgan war ,
    but if Russia invade ,you will see how all cities Pro Russian people from south to east of Ukraine from Odessa to Kharkiv will Rebel ,in order to get the Russian army inside their cities and liberate them from the Nazis in Kiev.. SO ukraine could end losing its nation totally because theres many pro russian supporters. You only had to see how the CIA sponsored AMERICAN popular online media.. like VICE.. Simon the so called journalist , made sure in one chapter of their reports ,that everyone was fully aware ,that Right Sector is now leading the operations
    in Easter Ukraine and interviewing them.

    Why i think that if Russia plans to invade Ukraine ,they should first ,send a couple of thousands well armed undercover special forces..
    Volunteers, if possible Afgan war Veterans ,simply because of the cost will be much cheaper and if necessary later with its real Army and tanks.
    macedonian
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  macedonian Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:22 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    macedonian wrote:Attack on the Embassy ongoing...
    Russian Foreign Ministry issued this statement:
    Ru MFA wrote:MOSCOW, June 14, 22:19 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia has expressed indignation with provocative actions at the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.
    “Russia demanded Ukraine take necessary measures for ensuring security of Russian diplomats in Kiev,” the ministry says.
    The ministry has placed a link to the live events at the Russian Embassy in Ukraine on the Facebook page.

    “See and remember the so-called European values,” the ministry says.

    I like that red part. Nice way to troll the Ukrainians/Americans and especially the 'Europeans' and their (often variable) 'values'.
     afro

    i agree fully with that quote, i am a western european, wether i like it or not. but all i can say i find this and the rest of what is going on ukraine just sickening, the western stench of hypocricy going trough the roof and beyond. and not a single word of what is going on now at the embassy's in the western Media's as usual.  

    at moments where its just so obvious where the West is willing to embrace such vile ideologies of hate, violence and genocide just because it suits their geo-political strategy's and where world war 2 was fought over for crying out loud.... i honestly feel ashamed to all the people that died in WW2. the EU got its freedom paid in blood of others....so those "heroic sacrifices" could be sold out barely 60 years later.

    and i really do not say this because im on this forum and take a "negative West" view for community sakes. if there is something i believe thats wrong and (perhaps) not to the liking of the general opinion i speak my mind too. in a respectable way of course but i do speak out. i try to be just a straight to the point i can be to what i think.

    often i thought about what i could do, but thats how i ended up in the millitary in the first place. i always firmly believed i could bring "peace and security" by way of being the best i could be in the millitary. i was a 15 year old naive dumbass that tried to make a difference in the world, that tought was pretty much fast broken appart when i saw "we" NATO where not in Afghanistan for the people but for Political benefits of politicians and America's dirty geo-politics. 2 months into Afghanistan and getting a direct order from your goverment to abandon a town to its fate of a reprisal attack of the Taliban was just the start of hating the weasel politicians and my first taste of what the U.S foreign policy both millitary and political really is beyond the western propaganda.

    whining about it does not accomplish anything either, but the feeling of "injustice" i guess just keeps burning. im 28 now and i got a fammily to maintain with three dogs so i cant run off to any conflictzone either anymore. its just not fighting to possible contribute, i was more thinking to contribute then in medical training, tactical combat training, improvised anti-armour warfare and so there are several other things i could come up with. if NATO deploy's killers against the russian-speaking eastern ukraine at least one NATO killer could help the east ukraine i figured. on one side i feel i do not belong there in someone's country as a "foreign fighter". on the other side i feel it does not matter much when americans are killing there ukrainian people "on contract" for Nazi kiev already. in the end tough i cant walk away for my responsibility's here at home now.  im sure it goes for others here on the forum too that now have responsibility's lying at home.

    it ends up i guess with war being brutal, and its never easy to be powerless watching at the front-row seat of internet about injustice being done to people. but in the end the worst suffering are the people going trough it.losing loved ones, their houses and possesions, living in uncertainty of getting their next meal or if a bullet or bomb hits them. and thinking themselves how the rest of the world can look on while eating their dinner at the T.V. say. "oh thats terrible" and 5 minutes later forget about them because they discuss the latest episode of Jersey shore or Miley cyrus twerking on MTV.

    i keep voting for anti-eu party's and sign every protest inquiry against the E.U policy i can and bringing my point of view up in discussion when Ukraine/Russia comes up in the conversation and argument about the "insanity" of what the west is doing. these are NOT my morals and value's what is being done in the name of "the West"  but i cant see i cant do much about it more except going there to ukraine and that is not an option now.

    sorry for the mostly personal rant, just my point of view on this matter.

    I believe every single word you wrote.
    That's all I can say now, but I'll get back to you on this, since your post merits a much more though-out reply.
    Anyway, thanks for being honest. I salute you!
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:15 am

    On another note.. its seems to me.. that the Ukrainian Military Plane was a false flag operation ,was either empty ,remote controlled
    or with prisoners acting as soldiers ,and its crew was forced to intentionally flew over the Rebels Airspace so it could be shot down. i mean who in their Right Mind will fly such easy targets cargo planes over a zone mined with air defenses?  The purpose? To unite Ukrainians against the eastern operations. There have been signs already of divisions in Kiev over the eastern operations ,with parents protestings and recently soldiers protesting for not being paid.. So this plane attack could have been planned by the west.. Im surprised ,they have not used Civilians Planes and forced them to fly over Rebels Airspace.Something the Terrorist American Government and its CIA is very good at.. is controlling people hate in revolutions they provoke ,and fueling the violence..  The Odessa Massacre is a perfect example of their operations.. and this plane shot down doesn't add..  It was incredibly stupid to fly over Rebels territory with such a plane.
    Cyberspec
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:28 am

    Vann7 wrote:On another note.. its seems to me.. that the Ukrainian Military Plane was a false flag operation ,was either empty ,remote controlled
    or with prisoners acting as soldiers ,and its crew was forced to intentionally flew over the Rebels Airspace so it could be shot down.

    Unless they can break the siege, it's the only way to supply their garrison at the airport. They were landing planes there previously but the LNR declared a "no fly zone" 2-3 days ago and said they would fire on aircraft attempting to land there...they ignored the warning.


    Interestingly, lokks like there were some Lithuanian and Polish mercenaries on board. The pic below was reportedly taken just before take off.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 J0pMrig5mDE


    The shot down Il-76 being loaded up

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 IrZNwU_iuKg


    On the Ru-net there's speculation that the lost Il-76 was the one that was recently overhauled. The other 5 that Ukr-AF has are said to be old, not maintained and might not be airworthy

    .
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:33 am

    arpakola wrote:US to attack Russia in 2015. Evgeny Fedorov

    Thx...interesting interview, although I think he's over dramatising things a little
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    Post  Firebird Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:37 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    Im really wondering whats really US plans with Ukraine.. by trying to lure Russia inside. Yes it could be to give them another afgan war ,
    but if Russia invade ,you will see how all cities Pro Russian people from south to east of Ukraine from Odessa to Kharkiv will Rebel ,in order to get the Russian army inside their cities and liberate them from the Nazis in Kiev.. SO ukraine could end losing its nation totally because theres many pro russian supporters. You only had to see how the CIA sponsored AMERICAN popular online media.. like VICE.. Simon the so called journalist , made sure in one chapter of their reports ,that everyone was fully aware ,that Right Sector is now leading the operations
    in Easter Ukraine and interviewing them.

    Why i think that if Russia plans to invade Ukraine ,they should first ,send a couple of thousands well armed undercover special forces..
    Volunteers, if possible Afgan war Veterans ,simply because of the cost will be much cheaper and if necessary later with its real Army and tanks.

    People talk about "provoking Russia to invade". BUT, there has to be some "red line".
    When Russia HAS to intervene.
    And I've said it before, America wouldn't be so smug, if shit was happening to its own citizens inside the US.

    -------------

    I'm also rather disturbed to see references to live cameras of the Ru Embassy in Kiev.
    Makes me think of Odessa etc again : (
    THis is clearly ANOTHER attack on Russia by the junta and puppets.
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    Post  Firebird Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:38 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:On another note.. its seems to me.. that the Ukrainian Military Plane was a false flag operation ,was either empty ,remote controlled
    or with prisoners acting as soldiers ,and its crew was forced to intentionally flew over the Rebels Airspace so it could be shot down.

    Unless they can break the siege, it's the only way to supply their garrison at the airport. They were landing planes there previously but the LNR declared a "no fly zone" 2-3 days ago and said they would fire on aircraft attempting to land there...they ignored the warning.


    Interestingly, lokks like there were some Lithuanian and Polish mercenaries on board. The pic below was reportedly taken just before take off.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 J0pMrig5mDE


    The shot down Il-76 being loaded up

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 IrZNwU_iuKg


    On the Ru-net there's speculation that the lost Il-76 was the one that was recently overhauled. The other 5 that Ukr-AF has are said to be old, not maintained and might not be airworthy

    .

    Couldnt have happened to a "nicer" load of dogshit.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:48 am

    Firebird wrote:People talk about "provoking Russia to invade". BUT, there has to be some "red line".
    When Russia HAS to intervene.

    Russia doesn't HAVE TO intervene directly, but it has to make sure the Novorosija forces become strong enough to force a settlement on their terms.
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    Post  Firebird Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:53 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    Firebird wrote:People talk about "provoking Russia to invade". BUT, there has to be some "red line".
    When Russia HAS to intervene.

    Russia doesn't HAVE TO intervene directly, but it has to make sure the Novorosija forces become strong enough to force a settlement on their terms.

    Well hopefully Putin has some strange and mystic plan.

    But, to me certain rules are sacred. Immutable. These are RUSSIAN civillians being murdered. Being abused by American/EU creators of a junta.

    This doesn't exactly warn whatever scum from Ingusheta etc against commiting crimes against humanity against Russians.

    IMO, intervening would stop this shit ever happening again anywhere. Be that Kazakstan, Lithuania, Hohol-land, wherever.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:55 am

    Russia shouldn't be fighting alone vs all NATO mercenary NAZI thugs. US and the EU can literary empty all their Jails of criminals with very long sentences and put them to fight in Ukraine as "Ukraine national guard".  Russia should start asking for volunteers that there will be millions in the world ,specially in LATIN america that is very Pro Russia ,with a few exceptions like Panama and Colombia ,that is to stop NATO proxy war against Russians in eastern Ukraine.

    In other news Ukraine nazi army claims killed 50 local defenses and wounded 150 in an airstrike..

    http://rt.com/news/165980-kramatorsk-50-killed-army-ukraine/


    What's the version of DOnetsk authorities about this attack?

    Also Russia should retaliate Kiev ,for their attack on their Embassy , because attacking an Embassy and its diplomats is an act of war
    against your nation ,fire an Iskander missile fired on Kiev parliament and claim that is retaliation for their Embassy attack and for its police and kiev authorities allowing it.  The kiev Junta is taking advantage of the political cover they receive from NATO , alone they will never
    dare to threaten Russia. I vote for when Russia to invade Ukraine that they warning US ,that if Americans provide help to the Ukraine army
    to fight RUssia ,they will take the fight directly to the americans.. and start Bombing all american military bases In Poland ,Romania and baltic states creating a buffer zone ,where no NATO base can operate ,but also sink any american warship in the black sea.. Once Russia give a strong Ultimatum with world war 3 with 48 hours for the west stop their proxy criminal war in Ukraine .. the EU will start to do the right thing and try to pressure Ukraine to stop its illegal war in E.Ukraine and push for a diplomatic solution. trust me one simple american warship destroyed after Obama failing to end its illegal criminal sponsored war in Ukraine. will be enough to create a massive unrest of millions in all americans cities demanding Obama to be impeached and put in Jail.

    Im sure that if i was the President of Russia ,long time ago i will have go to war with United States.. people that do not Impose Respect ,
    and allow other to attack you directly or by proxy , as americans did in AFganistan , Serbia conflict ,Syria and now against Russians at their borders.. Now is Russians at eastern Borders.. tomorrow will be Russians inside Russia. Passivennes when you are attacked ,will only encourage such nations to continue escalating the attacks.  IF after a Big warning they continue promoting the war ,Just Sink one single American warship and a los angeles submarine ,with the super "impenetrable aegis system.." or so they claim ,in the black sea or baltic states ,while showing dozens of Russian nuclear submarines at US east code.. and nuclear bombers in the west code ready to fight..and you will see how the American Neocons Thugs back down and start to negotiate.. In fact if Obama continue pushing for a war ,after being warned with WAR in public by Russia for a nuclear conflict.. he will be in a big risk of a coup by his own generals and staff and Europe will NOT welcome a world war over a bankrupt nation of savages ,and Nazis Ukraine because is not in their interest to be caught in the cross fire.. specially against a nuclear power like Russia.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:34 am

    Image of the Il-76 used by Nazterrorists that was shot down earlier.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 Iuuv2rW
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    Post  Viktor Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:16 am

    Nice  thumbsup 

    URGENT. Militia released Lugansk airport
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:35 am

    Western countries at the UN Security Council have blocked statement proposed by Russia which condemned the attack on the Russian Embassy in Kiev, said to RIA Novosti a diplomatic source in the organization.


    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_15/Western-delegations-in-Security-Council-blocked-Russian-condemnatory-statement-5640/

    So the Usual mafia suspects blocked a resolution to condemn a clear Illegal Attack on the Russian Embassy ,and Kiev did nothing to stop it..
    and now the Americans and its allies thugs blocked to condemn it?

    really Russians and the entire world should now start attacking American ,British ,Canadian  and Ukraine Embasys world wide with Stones ,molotov bombs ,so they experience the same and destroy all their official cars in a retaliation.. and later Russian and the Countries upset with US policies refuse to stop them.. Tit for tat.. So the thugs see that their criminal actions do have consequences and will not go upunished and Later Russia blockade any resolution to condemn the attack of western Embassys.  Cool 

    What will be next?  Russian diplomats burned alive in the embassy and later the americans laugh about that ?  Russia should stop pretending the west is their friends or as they say "their partners".. they have an undeclared war against Russia and use Ukraine as proxy.. And start retaliating the west in the same way.. they attacked..  US Gov is far more hated than Russia in the planet and for sure they will end with 98% of their world embasys assaulted if Russia lead by example and encourage the world not happy against NATO to do the same..
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:33 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup 

    URGENT. Militia released Lugansk airport


    That hasn't been confirmed. But I doubt they can hold out much longer without supplies coming in
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    Post  macedonian Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:01 am

    You cannot make this sh/t up, yet again Ukraine delivers...

    A Ukrainian MINISTER (as in Minister in the GOVERNMENT of Ukraine) is convinced by the crowd to throw a stone at the Russian embassy!!!

    He later gets thanked for it of course, Maidan style. What the US has unleashed on Ukraine, the Ukrainians will have to undo and that will take at least a decade. Things are going to get quite ugly when they reflect back on how they've been played like a string quartet in Allegro Vivace by the Americans. I predict a few more Maidans there (not that the US would have any problems with it, as long as chaos persists)...

    Anyway...without further ado, Ladies and Gentleman, I give you A MINISTER IN THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT:


    Drum-roll

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    Post  macedonian Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:36 am


    Spokesman: Kiev round of gas talks ends without result
    The new date of the talks was not fixed, Russian Gazprom gas giant spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov added
    ITAR-TASS wrote:KIEV, June 15. /ITAR-TASS/. Gas talks at the Ministry of Coal Industry in Kiev on Saturday continued well into the night, ending at about 3 am Moscow time on Sunday without any result achieved, Russian Gazprom gas giant spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov told Tass.
    The new date of the talks was not fixed, he added. Earlier reports said talks in Kiev ended at midnight and were to be continued on Sunday.
    The deadline for Gazprom switching over to advance payment is 10:00 Moscow time June 16, when Gazprom should see 1.950 billion U.S. dollars from Naftogaz of Ukraine on its accounts as debt payment for November-December 2013 and April-May 2014.
    TASS

    Things just get merrier and merrier, don't they?!
    It's really going to be a prolonged crisis...with many losers at the end of it. Ukraine the biggest loser of all. Poor fcukers, aren't really aware of it yet.
    And some people are petting each other on the back in Washington I think. But it's all about the ending, and I hope it won't be a happy-end for that lot.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:55 am

    I bet Lukashenko fully support Kiev attack on the Russian embassy with Government politicians throwing rocks too..,
    he will backstab Russia at the first chance .. He is the one who told that he support Ukraine to kill all the Separatist. is so easy for him
    to talk because he is not the one that have 40,000 civilians refugees in his Territory and all of them telling how the Ukraine Nazi army
    is bombing them indiscriminately.. I have no idea why Russia have so many problems to have real friends.. withing former soviets Republics.
    Whatever they doing really sucks..  Now you have the entire world laughing at Russia for its embassy being attacked non stop and they cannot protect their own diplomats.  if i was Russia i will order a major boyccot World Wide to all USA and Ukrainian Embassys throw rocks and molotov cocktails. Russia is losing its world Respect , they should now go on the full offensive with their special forces in eastern Ukraine and once all pathways cleared and Border taken ,do an invasion to the end of year to restore order and be ready to warn NATO that if they begin to help Ukraine with weapons or anything that Russia will start attacking US military bases and warships near Russia.

    If there is something in the world the western Neocons fear and truly scared (because of their exceptional EGOS) is to be humiliated in public . like it was the taking of Crimea ,that they did nothing to Russia or the Georgian war. And nothing better than sinking an American warships protected by Aegis or shutting down a B2 or an F22,which is the pride of every American.I support Russia going to war prefferible after Ukraine pays its Gas bills..  Laughing  if things continue ,and drawing a line to NATO ,warning in public that Russia will be ready to use nuclear weapons if Notice NATO is helping Ukraine or giving them weapons but of course it will be nicer if Russia don't go alone ,and have some support ..


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:05 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  macedonian Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:57 am

    Oh, and about that attack on the Embassy, here's how the Ukrainian Police illustrate that Ukraine is indeed out of the claws of the evil Russian bear, and bravely moving forward on the path of European integrations, where 'Rule of Law', 'Civility', and 'Democracy' are the imperatives:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 0_f6a210
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 0_f6a211

    I think the Ukrainian Government building should get a makeover, and look something like this:
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 Circus10
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:15 am

    The pitts of depravity, look how low the New York Times has stooped down to...you can see why the Western Media have gone bonkers and why the west supports stirring up sh*t in other peoples business (Ukraine):

    The Lack of Major Wars May Be Hurting Economic Growth

    The continuing slowness of economic growth in high-income economies has prompted soul-searching among economists. They have looked to weak demand, rising inequality, Chinese competition, over-regulation, inadequate infrastructure and an exhaustion of new technological ideas as possible culprits.

    An additional explanation of slow growth is now receiving attention, however. It is the persistence and expectation of peace.

    The world just hasn’t had that much warfare lately, at least not by historical standards. Some of the recent headlines about Iraq or South Sudan make our world sound like a very bloody place, but today’s casualties pale in light of the tens of millions of people killed in the two world wars in the first half of the 20th century. Even the Vietnam War had many more deaths than any recent war involving an affluent country.

    Counterintuitive though it may sound, the greater peacefulness of the world may make the attainment of higher rates of economic growth less urgent and thus less likely. This view does not claim that fighting wars improves economies, as of course the actual conflict brings death and destruction. The claim is also distinct from the Keynesian argument that preparing for war lifts government spending and puts people to work. Rather, the very possibility of war focuses the attention of governments on getting some basic decisions right — whether investing in science or simply liberalizing the economy. Such focus ends up improving a nation’s longer-run prospects.

    It may seem repugnant to find a positive side to war in this regard, but a look at American history suggests we cannot dismiss the idea so easily. Fundamental innovations such as nuclear power, the computer and the modern aircraft were all pushed along by an American government eager to defeat the Axis powers or, later, to win the Cold War. The Internet was initially designed to help this country withstand a nuclear exchange, and Silicon Valley had its origins with military contracting, not today’s entrepreneurial social media start-ups. The Soviet launch of the Sputnik satellite spurred American interest in science and technology, to the benefit of later economic growth.

    War brings an urgency that governments otherwise fail to summon. For instance, the Manhattan Project took six years to produce a working atomic bomb, starting from virtually nothing, and at its peak consumed 0.4 percent of American economic output. It is hard to imagine a comparably speedy and decisive achievement these days.

    As a teenager in the 1970s, I heard talk about the desirability of rebuilding the Tappan Zee Bridge. Now, a replacement is scheduled to open no earlier than 2017, at least — provided that concerns about an endangered sturgeon can be addressed. Kennedy Airport remains dysfunctional, and La Guardia is hardly cutting edge, hobbling air transit in and out of New York. The $800 billion stimulus bill, in response to the recession, has not changed this basic situation.

    Today the major slow-growing Western European nations have very little fear of being taken over militarily, and thus their politicians don’t face extreme penalties for continuing stagnation. Instead, losing office often means a boost in income from speaking or consulting fees or a comfortable retirement in a pleasant vacation spot. Japan, by comparison, is faced with territorial and geopolitical pressures from China, and in response it is attempting a national revitalization through the economic policies of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

    Ian Morris, a professor of classics and history at Stanford, has revived the hypothesis that war is a significant factor behind economic growth in his recent book, “War! What Is it Good For? Conflict and the Progress of Civilization From Primates to Robots.” Morris considers a wide variety of cases, including the Roman Empire, the European state during its Renaissance rise and the contemporary United States. In each case there is good evidence that the desire to prepare for war spurred technological invention and also brought a higher degree of internal social order.

    Another new book, Kwasi Kwarteng’s “War and Gold: A 500-Year History of Empires, Adventures, and Debt,” makes a similar argument but focuses on capital markets. Mr. Kwarteng, a Conservative member of British Parliament, argues that the need to finance wars led governments to help develop monetary and financial institutions, enabling the rise of the West. He does worry, however, that today many governments are abusing these institutions and using them to take on too much debt. (Both Mr. Kwarteng and Mr. Morris are extending themes from Azar Gat’s 820-page magnum opus, “War in Human Civilization,” published in 2006.)

    Yet another investigation of the hypothesis appears in a recent working paper by the economists Chiu Yu Ko, Mark Koyama and Tuan-Hwee Sng. The paper argues that Europe evolved as more politically fragmented than China because China's risk of conquest from its western flank led it toward political centralization for purposes of defense. This centralization was useful at first but eventually held China back. The European countries invested more in technology and modernization, precisely because they were afraid of being taken over by their nearby rivals.

    But here is the catch: Whatever the economic benefits of potential conflict might have been, the calculus is different today. Technologies have become much more destructive, and so a large-scale war would be a bigger disaster than before. That makes many wars less likely, which is a good thing, but it also makes economic stagnation easier to countenance.

    CONTINUE READING THE MAIN STORY
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    COMMENTS
    There is a more optimistic read to all this than may first appear. Arguably the contemporary world is trading some growth in material living standards for peace — a relative paucity of war deaths and injuries, even with a kind of associated laziness.

    We can prefer higher rates of economic growth and progress, even while recognizing that recent G.D.P. figures do not adequately measure all of the gains we have been enjoying. In addition to more peace, we also have a cleaner environment (along most but not all dimensions), more leisure time and a higher degree of social tolerance for minorities and formerly persecuted groups. Our more peaceful and — yes — more slacker-oriented world is in fact better than our economic measures acknowledge.

    Living in a largely peaceful world with 2 percent G.D.P. growth has some big advantages that you don’t get with 4 percent growth and many more war deaths. Economic stasis may not feel very impressive, but it’s something our ancestors never quite managed to pull off. The real questions are whether we can do any better, and whether the recent prevalence of peace is a mere temporary bubble just waiting to be burst.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/upshot/the-lack-of-major-wars-may-be-hurting-economic-growth.html

    It seemed relevant to post this here because you can see how patently absurd Western Media has become (especially when it comes to media coverage of the Ukrainian Crisis)!!!
    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:34 am

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 15 Bqhifmkceae6asaqisjh
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:54 am

    I really have no bad feelings saying this, but let Western Ukraine suffer, cut off all supplies from russia to Ukraine and see this brainwashed idiots suffer in the cold, they have no income whatsoever, after starting genociding own population in the east, no one is working in the East which is the actual working and money making population, let those idiots freeze untill this bastards come to some sense and when those idiots come to sense and beg for help from Russia, ban everything that has even slightly to do with fascism, life time jail for all fascist ministers and high officials, capture big mouths and execute all foreign terrorists working for nazis, but in public. As soon someone dares to speak out anything against russians or pro-nazi bullshit jailing them. Russia has to counter this US scum Propaganda that has been radiating ukrainian population like they are non russians, the term "ukrainian ethnicity" should be prosecuted since that is a fabrication and only aimed to divide one folk from each other.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:59 pm

    Lukashenko silence about the attack in Russia embassy surprising? Does he still support the Ukraine Nazi junta?
    I bet he saw nothing wrong about their Nazis friends.. attacking the Russian embassy.after all he called for the killing of all separatist.. LOL
    I will not be surprised if Lukashenko send mercenaries ,special forces spetnaz from Belarus to help the Ukraine nazi Army to kill
    Russians. he is truly disconnected from reality and Russia needs to be careful about him .

    Russia needs to look elsewhere for friends and almost break total relations with USA. That is to bypass all their Sanctions and laugh in their face..IF i was Putin i will just Fuck USA and EU.. and try to work with India  how to develop their economy better and people quality of life..
    Same with Latin America.. because India buys a lot of weapons from Russia and the same with Vietnam and other economies. IRAN another potential client of Russia.. Give IRAN nukes to NATO and Israel have real reasons to be worried and fully Arm IRAN with every weapon money can buy regardless of western sanctions. Thailand and other Asian countries can be developed by Russia. The more developed and modern become Asia ,the more Gas they will need and more will buy from Russia.  Is kind of a disgrace that the Conflict in Ukraine needs to happen for Putin to wake up and seek to distance from the EU and look back at CHina . Those Pipelines are a decade late at least. The EU will never be a friend of Russia ,they have chosen to be Colonies of USA .
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    Post  etaepsilonk Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:09 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Lukashenko silence about the attack in Russia embassy surprising? Does he still support the Ukraine Nazi junta?
    I bet he saw nothing wrong about their Nazis friends.. attacking the Russian embassy.after all he called for the killing of all separatist.. LOL
    I will not be surprised if Lukashenko send mercenaries ,special forces spetnaz from Belarus to help the Ukraine nazi Army to kill
    Russians. he is truly disconnected from reality and Russia needs to be careful about him .

    It's not batka who's disconnected from reality, but all his fanboys and fangirls who for years have been admiring him as a great leader, good ally etc. despite his REGULAR backstabbings and tail twisting.

    It's especially prevalent among Russians, and I really have a really hard time finding out why. Maybe it's that "iron fist" image (which, btw, is seriously damaging BY institutions by promoting comformism). And those magnificient moustache may also play a part  Smile


    But what's even funnier, although with each such trick (which are now hard to count) a lot of those fans come to their senses, there's still a horde of admirers saying "oh it's all OK, it's just part of the cunning plan, his words were taken out of context" and similar stuff (look at the comment below  Smile  ).


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:39 pm; edited 5 times in total
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:15 pm

    Vann - Lukasenko NEVER said that. His words where taken out of contex. He knows very well what happened and supports Russian position to the last word. Try to find his original statements and see for yourself. If something exists out of its logical implications than you need to search further because in most cases that implys outside inteference. Second, pipes could not have been build before because Russia was trying to secure gas production of Caspian sea in front of Eu and the moment that was done project South Stream was launched.

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