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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    macedonian
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    Post  macedonian Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:10 am

    Svetlana Gizai, whose husband Alexander, was killed a week ago in an airstrike in #Lugansk breaks down #Ukraine
    http://twitpic.com/e5ue9t

    A tweet from RT's Paula Slier

    Civilians really suffer the most in all this.
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    Post  macedonian Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:29 am


    Ukraine to create humanitarian corridors

    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has ordered the creation
    of humanitarian corridors for civilians to flee areas of the east hit by conflict.

    BBC wrote:In a statement, the presidency said ministers had been ordered to set up "all necessary conditions for civilians who want to leave".
    Violence between pro-Russia militants and Ukrainian forces has left more than 200 people dead, officials say.
    Russia called for corridors last week to enable civilians to leave.
    Mr Poroshenko, who met Russia's President Vladimir Putin on Friday at the D-Day commemorations in France, said at his inauguration in Kiev the next day that he would provide safe passage for "Russian militants" out of Ukraine.

    BBC
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:42 am

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    Post  Vann7 Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:00 am

    What can you say .. when...

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 9 10441917_10152159205918388_4433556050919126355_n

    When young Girls need to take a Rifle to defend Eastern Ukraine?
    Whats wrong with the Pro Russian Ukrainians ? Didn't was said there are half a million miners in Eastern Ukraine
    that could join and help? I will be surprised if their numbers are greater than 5,000 soldiers.. the last number i heard was about 2,000.
    Is a total Disgrace ,that the eastern Ukraine were 5 millions people live , only a couple of thousands fighters or a bit more choose to
    defend their land.. this is unbelievable ,then you have all Mariupol and Odessa ,people there with their doing nothing. Ukrainians are the most laziest disgraced society ever. Even womens show more courage than mens..


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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:03 am

    macedonian wrote:
    Ukraine to create humanitarian corridors

    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has ordered the creation
    of humanitarian corridors for civilians to flee areas of the east hit by conflict.

    BBC wrote:In a statement, the presidency said ministers had been ordered to set up "all necessary conditions for civilians who want to leave".
    Violence between pro-Russia militants and Ukrainian forces has left more than 200 people dead, officials say.
    Russia called for corridors last week to enable civilians to leave.
    Mr Poroshenko, who met Russia's President Vladimir Putin on Friday at the D-Day commemorations in France, said at his inauguration in Kiev the next day that he would provide safe passage for "Russian militants" out of Ukraine.

    BBC

    So he can continue bombardment with heavy artilery..

    ===============================================



    ==========================================
    azov fascist batalion ..
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:30 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    По словам жителей Краматорска, на аэродром привезли несколько контейнеров со знаками химической опасности. Контейнеры находятся под усиленной охраной украинской армии. Что именно находится в них — неизвестно.
    Novorossia.su

    I hope this is only a bad attempt at propaganda.

    Could just be some white phosphorus, napalm or whatever.

    when refer to napalms or phosphorus.. this is not [just]
    (if you have masks and uniform  can be saved from sarin , but not from napalms and phosporus..)
    =========================================================================

    http://novorossia.su/node/2558
    Ополченцы уничтожили блокпост между Славянском и Краматорском

    http://novorossia.su/node/2562
    Губарев: Желающих попасть в ополчение больше, чем оружия


    http://novorossia.su/node/2544
    Ополченцы Славянска уничтожили установку «Град», из которой силовики обстреливали город
    ============================================

    http://novorossia.su/


    Last edited by arpakola on Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:52 am

    If Russian leadership was considering a massive, disproportional, decisive intervention would had done it in the early stages.
    They preferred to play it otherwise. Now, I confess, it is not wise to change the plan middle way.
    I would take the other root but Kremlin has more experience and better intelligence and supervision of the situation, time will tell,
    let's put aside this "dating" game and focus on what is happening now with the existing situation.
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:09 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:If Russian leadership was considering a massive, disproportional, decisive intervention would had done it in the early stages.
    They preferred to play it otherwise. Now, I confess, it is not wise to change the plan middle way.
    I would take the other root but Kremlin has more experience and better intelligence and supervision of the situation, time will tell,
    let's put aside this "dating" game and focus on what is happening now with the existing situation.

    but they must not let DONbass die.
    a surprise hit against of Ukr artilery and large concetrations in Donbass can be performed without steping in.

    ===============================

    have a look here .. about UN and self determination rights..
    http://www.un.org/en/sc/repertoire/2010-2011/Part%20III/2010-2011_Part%20III.pdf#page=3
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:37 pm


    http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=937
    Jewry’s Puppet…Petro Poroshenko

    ok .., we can have some fun now.. reading it .
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 9 Jewmanporo
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:25 pm

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/735585
    ??
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    Post  macedonian Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:32 pm

    arpakola wrote:http://en.itar-tass.com/world/735585
    ??
    Quite right: ????
    Russian news are as ambiguous as Russia's policies...
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:59 pm

    So it seems we are almost back to square 1, but with a twist.

    So lavrov is saying no sanctions on Ukraine if they join EU, but they will lose CIS status, hence lose the free trade (Tarrifs will now be applied to protect domestic enterprises) and this is exactly what stemmed the debate prior to the maiden revolts.

    The twist is, at least Russia got Crimea. Now they need to close the border, build up military (because NATO comes soon after EU membership) and arm Crimea to the teeth as US will more than likely place ships in Odessa and try to limit Russia's navy in black sea. As well, start getting domestic enterprises making what Ukraine did for Russia. Even if it costs a lot of money initially.
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:01 pm

    Separatists in Lugansk are cutting off the water to NG/Army in the airport
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:03 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So it seems we are almost back to square 1, but with a twist.

    So lavrov is saying no sanctions on Ukraine if they join EU, but they will lose CIS status, hence lose the free trade (Tarrifs will now be applied to protect domestic enterprises) and this is exactly what stemmed the debate prior to the maiden revolts.

    The twist is, at least Russia got Crimea. Now they need to close the border, build up military (because NATO comes soon after EU membership) and arm Crimea to the teeth as US will more than likely place ships in Odessa and try to limit Russia's navy in black sea. As well, start getting domestic enterprises making what Ukraine did for Russia. Even if it costs a lot of money initially.

    or make their move , supporting indepentance of Donbass AND Odessa (remember ?. there is Pernestrovia also). and let the rest screw as they like..
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    Post  macedonian Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:15 pm

    If Ukraine makes it in the EU during the next decade, I'll be the first one to celebrate.
    Not sure just what "EU" members remain by then though...maybe Romania, Spain, Bulgaria, Portugal, Czech-0-Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Albania, Kosovo, Ukraine, Georgia...and - that's about it!...You know - the "proud" members of the EU Club that "proudly" bend over when Uncle Sam "want's some action"...
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    Post  Regular Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:47 pm

    arpakola wrote:

    (if you have masks and uniform  can be saved from sarin , but not from napalms and phosporus..)
    Theoretically yes, but practically long exposure to sarin is very dangerous even with best NBC suit. It's very corrosive even in gas form. And you have to "brew" a mixture to use it in short time as it can only be stored for limited time. Traces would be everywhere. Napalm, phosporus and more conventional chemicals could be the case here.
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:35 pm

    Пока Меркель поддерживает АТО, немцы выходят на мит
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    Post  Vann7 Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:33 pm



    Aparently 2 children were killed in the renewed shelling in Slavyansk.. But they zero filmed evidence..
    Whats Wrong with people in Ukraine? How hard is to get an Smart Phone and take a picture or video of the incident?
    The Independence Forces NEEDS... more than anything in the world.. even more than manpads ,tanks and that Russia
    Invade.. They need to raise the world awareness of what the Ukraine NAzi ARmy with the full support of NATO are doing.
    Public Opinion is everything.. and anti-kiev fighters needs to FULLY document everything the Ukraine army do..

    A major massacre against civilias by the Ukraine Army ,fully documented and filmed can totally change the world opinion
    in minutes and create a massive protest and rallies in the world demanding their Governments in the case of US and European Allies
    TO STOP supporting such criminal pro nazi government of Ukraine and demand to stop the war and recognize their independence.
    Also fully focumented crimes of the Ukraine Army on civilians women and children..can totally change the opinion on Ukrainians that live
    in other cities and create major Unrest too ,millions of protest.. demading the Kiev Junta and Poroshenko to STOP the war and to held accounted the people responsible for the crimes against civilians in eastern Ukraine.. Wars can be won without firing a single shot..
    Look at Crimea... Public Opinion is the only thing that can effectively end the war in eastern Ukraine and convince the world that Independence is the Right Thing to do for eastern Ukraine and that they cannot live with so brutal nazi government in Kiev.
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    Post  Intrigado Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:23 pm

    macedonian wrote:If Ukraine makes it in the EU during the next decade, I'll be the first one to celebrate.
    Not sure just what "EU" members remain by then though...maybe Romania, Spain, Bulgaria, Portugal, Czech-0-Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Albania, Kosovo, Ukraine, Georgia...and - that's about it!...You know - the "proud" members of the EU Club that "proudly" bend over when Uncle Sam "want's some action"...

    Rumor goes, and I'm more and more inclined to believe it, that the EU is the soft version of the Third Reich. So far it seems to be true.

    Not that I want to find excuses for my country for begging American help, but on one hand, this game was played since the 19th century, when France and Great Britain were brought into play with the purpose to ease the Russian pressure directed towards the Black Sea straits, on the other, nobody trusts Germany to take care of Eastern Europe's interests. That's why countries like Poland, the Baltics or Romania feel the need to bring another player to keep the balance in this game. Nobody wants that either Germany or Russia to tip the scale in its favor. Of course, the US tipping the scale in their favor is another unwanted outcome but well...this is what makes this life interesting.  Laughing


    Last edited by Intrigado on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  etaepsilonk Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:36 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Aparently 2 children were killed in the renewed shelling in Slavyansk..  But they zero filmed evidence..
    Whats Wrong with people in Ukraine? How hard is to get an Smart Phone and take a picture or video of the incident?
    The Independence Forces NEEDS... more than anything in the world.. even more than manpads ,tanks and that Russia
    Invade.. They need to raise the world awareness of what the Ukraine NAzi ARmy with the full support of NATO are doing.
    Public Opinion is everything.. and anti-kiev fighters needs to FULLY document everything the Ukraine army do..

    A major massacre against civilias by the Ukraine Army ,fully documented and filmed can totally change the world opinion
    in minutes and create a massive protest and rallies in the world demanding their Governments in the case of US and European Allies
    TO STOP supporting such criminal pro nazi government of Ukraine and demand to stop the war and recognize their independence.
    Also fully focumented crimes of the Ukraine Army on civilians women and children..can totally change the opinion on Ukrainians that live
    in other cities and create major Unrest too ,millions of protest.. demading the Kiev Junta and Poroshenko to STOP the war and to held accounted the people responsible for the crimes against civilians in eastern Ukraine..   Wars can be won without firing a single shot..
    Look at Crimea...  Public Opinion is the only thing that can effectively end the war in eastern Ukraine and convince the world that Independence is the Right Thing to do for eastern Ukraine and that they cannot live with so brutal nazi government in Kiev.

    Well, I can say for sure that everybody would be rushing to call for peace once rebels start steamrolling pro-Kiev forces  Wink
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    Post  mack8 Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:14 pm

    Intrigado wrote:
    macedonian wrote:If Ukraine makes it in the EU during the next decade, I'll be the first one to celebrate.
    Not sure just what "EU" members remain by then though...maybe Romania, Spain, Bulgaria, Portugal, Czech-0-Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Albania, Kosovo, Ukraine, Georgia...and - that's about it!...You know - the "proud" members of the EU Club that "proudly" bend over when Uncle Sam "want's some action"...

    Rumor goes, and I'm more and more inclined to believe it, that the EU is the soft version of the Third Reich. So far it seems to be true.

    Not that I want to find excuses for my country for begging American help, but on one hand, this game was played since 19th century, when France and Great Britain were brought into play with the purpose to ease the Russian pressure directed towards the Black Sea straits, on the other, nobody trusts Germany to take care of Eastern Europe's interests. That's why countries like Poland, the Baltics or Romania feel the need to bring another player to keep the balance in this game. Nobody wants that either Germany or Russia to tip the scale in its favor. Of course, the US tipping the scale in their favor is another unwanted outcome but well...this is what makes this life interesting.  Laughing 

    No, i don't agree with that (with all due respect), the real contemporary version of the third Reich is the US of A. Unfortunately, the EU countries are in the same situation as Romania, run by spineless vassals in US service who would sell their mother (let alone their own peoples) just to please the americans. This whole "EU is the modern day Third Reich" propaganda thing originated, guess from where, the s*ithole country across the ocean called USA. There is simply no point in getting stuck in the past and comparing today's world with the 19th century or the forties or even closer. Today, the imperialistic power IS the US, and most of EU countries (including Germany and France, or UK, you name it) are unfortunately it's vassals. And before going on about the evil EU again, i ask you this: would you blame the romanian people for the bolshevization of the country and the 45 years of that, or blame the bolsheviks themselves and their servile apparatchiks?

    The inter EU countries (and especially between it's citizens) discord and quibbling and conflict serves only one purpose, the US and their "divide and conquer" policy. Actually there is "underground" resistance in the EU to the US hegemonic objectives, witness the fact that Ukraine has STILL not been accepted into the EU (they obviously try not to commit a hostile act against Russia, which would please to heaven the US- i bet you anything you like those american  bastards have been pushing through every means to have Ukraine "accepted" in the EU), and witness the frustrated US "fuck the EU" outburst. Probably this is why they had to resort to open coup and military action themselves, they are the motherf***ers who engineered it, training the neo-nazi scum and so on.
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    Post  fragmachine Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:32 pm

    Funny that you all mention that "EU - New Third Reich" thing. In Polish "right wing" political parties it is considered as the new Soviet Union  Very Happy But it does not disallow for the fellow "right wing" members to win some tickets in the europarlament.


    Last edited by fragmachine on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:36 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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    Post  Intrigado Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:36 pm

    mack8 wrote:
    Intrigado wrote:
    macedonian wrote:If Ukraine makes it in the EU during the next decade, I'll be the first one to celebrate.
    Not sure just what "EU" members remain by then though...maybe Romania, Spain, Bulgaria, Portugal, Czech-0-Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Albania, Kosovo, Ukraine, Georgia...and - that's about it!...You know - the "proud" members of the EU Club that "proudly" bend over when Uncle Sam "want's some action"...

    Rumor goes, and I'm more and more inclined to believe it, that the EU is the soft version of the Third Reich. So far it seems to be true.

    Not that I want to find excuses for my country for begging American help, but on one hand, this game was played since 19th century, when France and Great Britain were brought into play with the purpose to ease the Russian pressure directed towards the Black Sea straits, on the other, nobody trusts Germany to take care of Eastern Europe's interests. That's why countries like Poland, the Baltics or Romania feel the need to bring another player to keep the balance in this game. Nobody wants that either Germany or Russia to tip the scale in its favor. Of course, the US tipping the scale in their favor is another unwanted outcome but well...this is what makes this life interesting.  Laughing 

    No, i don't agree with that (with all due respect), the real contemporary version of the third Reich is the US of A. Unfortunately, the EU countries are in the same situation as Romania, run by spineless vassals in US service who would sell their mother (let alone their own peoples) just to please the americans. This whole "EU is the modern day Third Reich" propaganda thing originated, guess from where, the s*ithole country across the ocean called USA. There is simply no point in getting stuck in the past and comparing today's world with the 19th century or the forties or even closer. Today, the imperialistic power IS the US, and most of EU countries (including Germany and France, or UK, you name it) are unfortunately it's vassals. And before going on about the evil EU again, i ask you this: would you blame the romanian people for the bolshevization of the country and the 45 years of that, or blame the bolsheviks themselves and their servile apparatchiks?

    The inter EU countries (and especially between it's citizens) discord and quibbling and conflict serves only one purpose, the US and their "divide and conquer" policy. Actually there is "underground" resistance in the EU to the US hegemonic objectives, witness the fact that Ukraine has STILL not been accepted into the EU (they obviously try not to commit a hostile act against Russia, which would please to heaven the US- i bet you anything you like those american  bastards have been pushing through every means to have Ukraine "accepted" in the EU), and witness the frustrated US "fuck the EU" outburst. Probably this is why they had to resort to open coup and military action themselves, they are the motherf***ers who engineered it, training the neo-nazi scum and so on.

    I'd very much like to be as optimistic as you are regarding Europe's future but let's face it, European countries have ever been at odds, far before the US to be born and become a global power. European countries have ever quarreled among themselves and unfortunately I see nothing to make me believe that they have ceased to care only for their own welfare, others' be damned. Of course the US are today the first imperialistic power but they play on Europe's lack of cohesion and self-centeredness. Maybe you heard about Radu Golban. Well, he wrote an interesting little book in which he did nothing else but took excerpts from German writings dating back to 19th century. The fate of Eastern Europe was clearly designed by German top-notch Economists, as Friedrich List: to be Germany's "hinterland" and nothing more. I don't see that anything has changed today. Remember the reason for we have a country today: because Great Britain, France, Prussia and the rest of the Western countries didn't want to let Russia get its hands on the Danube's mouths and thus to have free path to seize the Straits. I heard Barroso admitted that Bulgaria and Romania were accepted in the EU only to not let them in the Russian sphere of influence.
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    Post  arpakola Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:18 pm

    arpakola wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    arpakola wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What do you guys think of these?

    With Group of 7 Backing, Obama Gives Russia One-Month Ukraine Deadline

    I think that Barry's out of touch with reality.

    As far as recognition of poroshenko goes, it was not even intended to do otherwise  Smile

    actually as the recognition case .. I haven't seen  oficial recognition .. but Vlad said.. I respect the desision of Ukranian people.. wich is a n ot straigh forward recognition ..

    Lemmie guess. Putin's fanboy?  Wink 


    That "respect of the decision" is de facto recognition at least. And considering that Russia did not recognize DNR/LNR, if they won't recognize poroshenko, then there would be no one in ukraine to talk with AT ALL, that would be illogical.

    Agree

    but the situation today with Putin is similar with the case of the Greek revolution at 1821 when Ekaterine was the tsar in Russia  (and later Char Nicholas ..?) The  Greeke revolutionaries had placed a lot of hope in Russia help to the rvolution against the Turks. It was logical to expect help  because Orlovs tried once unsuccefuly to help (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_Revolt ) at 1770. The Greek revolution started and orginised by a secret society in Odessa (the filiki eteria) Also  many greek general serving in the Russian army were with the revolution , like Ipsilandis , Kapodistrias etc. Also navy  admiral served under Ekaterine  participated in the rvolution like Labros Katsonis and Varvakis. All honored by Ekaterina for their efforts against the turkish fleet in Black sea and Aegean.

    BUT..

    Russia did  not supported the revolution activly, openly .. she was just  sympathetic with it  but there  was minimum involvment.
    When  the uprising started FEBR/March 1821 , the officers  were  saying lies to the people  that they have the full support of Moscva  and personal letters from Tsar .. that will help activly.  So we started the revolution , wich ended  at 1829  with the establishment of the Greek state initially. The only russian participation has in the navy batle of Navarino .. but along with the Frence and English navy and that at the last year of the fight..

    No one realy can say for shure , why Ekaterina and Nicholas didnt help .. although friendly  to the Greek  uprising. My beleave is that the Greek revolution against the Otoman empire  was a direct conciquence  of the French revolution of 1789.  And was not only a national revolution against the Otomans but also a social revolution against the Holy pact (Austrian empire in Balkans) and Metenrih. Probably that aspect of the revolution was scaring the Russian Tsarin..

    So  When I ve seen Gubarev in his youtube spech .. in front of Putin and Chaves portrate.. I made a guess .. that many in Moscow .. look at the Donbass revolution with horror as the people there  have social demands also .. and they will not accept any Russian "Porosenkos"


    I think that this is the main reason .. Russia is leting them alone.. not the western sanctions , wich I beleave are used as an excuse..
    (I realy hope IM wrong 100%.. but the historic similaritis  are there)

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 9 Alexander_Ypsilantis_in_hussar_uniform
    In the picture Alexandros Ypsilandis .. as officer of the Russian army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Ypsilantis
    Alexander Ypsilantis is mentioned in Russian literature by Alexander Pushkin in his short story The Shot. The hero of Pushkin's story, Silivio dies in a campaign under command of Ypsilantis.
    -------------------------------
    Ypsilandis was dreaming not a Greek revolution but a Balkan revolution , from Peloponise  to Beograd and Moldova. And there is where he came in conflict not only with the |Otomans but also with the Austrians and Metenrix=h , who didnt wanted  any changes in the status of central - south Europe

    =========================================================
    the aftermath of the story is that Russia lost Greece wich is from that time outside the Russian  sphere of influence , no mater the strong pro russian feeling of the majority of the Greeks. Russia lost a potensial  ally with access to mediteranian , with lots of importand ports and facilities.

    every day passing more and more is coming to beleave that Russian Poroshenkos.. are scared  from the Donbass Chaves type of leaders  rising from the ashes of the uprising.
    They prefer NATO and EU  then to have to deal with people like Gubarev ..
    And that is why .. probably will let them die.
    What they miss  is that the death of Donbass may become the start of the distruction in  the ecxisting  games of Throne in Moscow.
    what vlad maneged to build in 15 years , can become ashes within few weeks. Time in certain occasions expands and surprises us..
    macedonian
    macedonian


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 9 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  macedonian Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:41 pm

    Don't want to derail the thread any further than I already did, but I'll say this,

    In order for the divide and conquer game to be successful - there are a few prerequisites that first need to be fulfilled:

    1. An ignorant population that doesn't see through the game and its own assigned role of mere cannon fodder in it;
    2. A very strong inferiority complex that can either results in [false] nationalism or in defeatism;
    3. False grandeur (usually historical romanticism);
    4. Poverty and laziness of the populace;
    5. Historical hatred between nations (see points 1,2 and 3 here also)
    6. Ethnic and/or Religious differences that can easily be exploited (see points 1, 2, 3, and 5 here also)

    So as much as I'd like to pin all the blame on Uncle Sam (and I do think that the "New American Empire", [which closely mimics the Roman Empire btw], is playing the game of Divide Et Impera in Europe), one has to be honest and confess that Europe is quite a fertile ground for the said game, and will continue to be such, as long as points 1,2,3,4,5, and 6 are a reality. The EU is a part of this problem too, it's presented as an "Elitist Club" to poorer nations, while the richer nations' oligarchs literally pillage their national wealth and resources. Such is the sad reality in this European continent.

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5 - Page 9 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

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