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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

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    Asf


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    Post  Asf Sat May 31, 2014 1:11 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:He simply lacks political will to do that... he knows that the US-Europe tandem is too strong for Russia to compete with - at least now.
    lol, poles really do believe in it)
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    Post  As Sa'iqa Sat May 31, 2014 1:17 pm

    There is no other way to explain the lack of interest in helping the East fight the government forces.
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    Post  Firebird Sat May 31, 2014 1:56 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:There is no other way to explain the lack of interest in helping the East fight the government forces.

    Except elsewhere, you're probably saying how evil Putin is for "massively" supporting separatists in Donbass...

    The idea that somehow the Kenyan Bathhouse Barry Obama and the Eurohag Merkel are too "strong" for Russia is rather comical.

    If Putin's scared of anyone its only himself... and of diverting from his prewritten script.
    My concern is that he loves the idea of playing "good cop" so much, he sometimes forgets when its time to pull a trigger.

    It'll be interesting, when everything's out in the open just how the casualties were on each side.
    Seems the Eurohohols want to claim all their deaths were in choppers. THis would suggest that their BTRs must be near enough nuke proof. Which I suspect they are not... haha
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    Post  Vann7 Sat May 31, 2014 2:17 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:There is no other way to explain the lack of interest in helping the East fight the government forces.

    Russia already took a big risk when invading with their army Crimea. there was about 20,000 ukrainians troops there supported by NATO.
    Russia even bombed Georgia and invaded it ,when there were americans instructors and warships in Georgia. And rejected any calls of NATO to leave.. still today the Russian army occupying Georgian disputed territories.

    So the problem is not Lack of Force.. but more like Lack of people support. The support is not absolute in eastern and southern
    ukraine for Russia. And also there is a big risk..that if they invade DOnetsk ,they will be forced to invade all Ukraine all the way to the capital  to defend all Russians. And BIG possibility that Russia will end fighting civilians too pro kiev.. that will block their tanks .. Something
    that will make world headlines of negativity against Russia. There is also false flags attacks.. Nazis could kill civilians and later blame Russia..

    So Russia fear is that their invasion can only generate more violence. I don't think NATO wants to confront Russia if they invade ,
    what they desire is to provoke Russia into a long war afgan like and damage its economy and world image.  So the reasons for Russia not invading is..
    1) Can make things worse and increase the violence against Russians in other cities.
    2)It will affect their economy to have 40,000 russian troops in a war. on top of EU sanctions.
    3)Public Opinion is not there. Not enough people support outside Donetsk/Lugansk..like in Crimea. in the following cities the support for Russia is like 50% of people. No support from Belarus either. So it will be a diplomacy nightmare for Russia if they invade.

    IF for example , Ukraine do the same thing ,that Georgia did.. and attack Russian territories with bombs and kill civilians (including Crimea),you can be sure Russia will not blink an eye and invade.. it will be automatic.. regardless if NATO is inside Ukraine or not.

    Is all about legitimacy and public support the reasons for invading. in Crimea Russia had massive support and a legitimate naval base to protect. IF Crimea was pro Maidan and with thousands Neo Nazis and Russia had little support there..it will have been near impossible for Russia to invade and maintain ever peace. Just like IRAQ war.. US invaded ,and had zero support.. they won all the battles but lost the war. Now Russia get Oil contracts and weapons contracts with IRAQ without firing a single bullet. And US wasted 1 trillion and today IRAQ talks to Iran Syria and Russia. Without people support you cannot win wars... in a long term. You might be able to win all battles but civilians and resistance will force you to leave.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 31, 2014 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat May 31, 2014 2:23 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:There is no other way to explain the lack of interest in helping the East fight the government forces.

    No he's waiting for the right moment, just look at the IMF shock therapy that was prescribed for Greece and look how bad that turned out, and Ukraine is easily in 3 times worse economic and political situation than Greece was before the IMF austerity shock therapy was applied. Once the austerity shock therapy is applied to the Ukrainian economy, which will make Ukraine so weak politically and economically that it will be rocked by massive violent protests and riots (in all regions of Ukraine), then Putin will strike with an oil embargo (where Russia will deliver oil and natural gas to Europe through tankers) for lack of cooperation in paying their gas debt and not ceasing military operations in the East as a final nail in the coffin around autumn season (the time when Ukrainian weather starts to get cold). Once that card is played Ukraine will be so weak that a military intervention from the Russian side wouldn't be necessary, and their can be negotiations to allow South and Eastern Ukraine to separate from the rest of Ukraine and in exchange the Russian side will lift the oil embargo, then write off and cancel the natural gas debt. But by that time Kiev would be so weak that Central and Western Ukraine may want to separate from Ukraine too (Western Ukrainian rednecks will claim that Kiev is ran by "Communist Joo's" as a reason for leaving).
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    Post  flamming_python Sat May 31, 2014 4:34 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:He simply lacks political will to do that... he knows that the US-Europe tandem is too strong for Russia to compete with - at least now.

    Putin, Lavrov & co are smart people and they're playing the European diplomacy game.

    Right now European diplomacy doesn't permit Putin to intervene in the Ukraine.

    But if there is no end in sight, the number of casualties keep increasing and escelating, and America's EU allies (many weakened by pro-Russian, Eurosceptic parties gaining in the European elections) start getting fed up of having their economic interests in Russia held hostage by the US's and some of its more enthusiastic allies' (Sweden, Britain, etc...) geopolitical ambitions - then a window of opportunity will open up for intervention, or alternatively, EU countries will start to pressure Kiev for a peaceful solution and federalization, or perhaps start to press for a ceasefire and international peacekeepers; this call being led by Russia.

    I think that's what Putin is playing for here.

    But what can happen is that the Ukrainian forces can keep losing control and taking more casualties, and then the rebellion starts spreading to Kharkov, Odessa - at that point everything becomes pretty unpredictable.
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    Post  Cyberspec Sat May 31, 2014 7:03 pm

    Shoigu announcing new maneuvers near Ukr. border due to increased attacks on civilian population in the SE  Question 

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    Post  macedonian Sat May 31, 2014 8:19 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    arpakola wrote:
    Let them feel the pain back home

    I recall that the Chechen rebels had the same idea, when they started brutally executing Russian PoWs, and organizing terrorist attacks and raids on Russian cities/towns.

    Every Ukrainian soldier lost is also a tragedy.
    Only people that deserve a real whooping over all this are the Ukr government and the Ukrainian nationalist militias and organizations.

    Some wise words there FP...I'm impressed.
    May I please also add some American "advisers" currently deployed in Ukraine to that list?

    flamming_python wrote:But it's not possible to hit them for now, without destabilizing the country to the point of ethnic cleansing and so on. So either one has to wait or find another way.
    These are...not so wise words...and I beg to differ on that. You see 'hitting them' does not equal eliminating them. No, quite a few methods other than that are available, and all of them are good game.

    Asf wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:He simply lacks political will to do that... he knows that the US-Europe tandem is too strong for Russia to compete with - at least now.
    lol, poles really do believe in it)

    Not necessarily Poles, but all rational people. As Sa'iqa can only muster making a few points here that actually make sense, and this is one of them. So, let's drop the fanboy attitude, and treat his words with due respect. They actually merit it this time.

    Firebird wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:There is no other way to explain the lack of interest in helping the East fight the government forces.

    Except elsewhere, you're probably saying how evil Putin is for "massively" supporting separatists in Donbass...

    You're probably right on that, but let's argue with what he says here. I don't want to promote 'elsewhere' anymore than I have to.

    flamming_python wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:He simply lacks political will to do that... he knows that the US-Europe tandem is too strong for Russia to compete with - at least now.

    Putin, Lavrov & co are smart people and they're playing the European diplomacy game.

    Right now European diplomacy doesn't permit Putin to intervene in the Ukraine.

    But if there is no end in sight, the number of casualties keep increasing and escelating, and America's EU allies (many weakened by pro-Russian, Eurosceptic parties gaining in the European elections) start getting fed up of having their economic interests in Russia held hostage by the US's and some of its more enthusiastic allies' (Sweden, Britain, etc...) geopolitical ambitions - then a window of opportunity will open up for intervention, or alternatively, EU countries will start to pressure Kiev for a peaceful solution and federalization, or perhaps start to press for a ceasefire and international peacekeepers; this call being led by Russia.

    I think that's what Putin is playing for here.

    But what can happen is that the Ukrainian forces can keep losing control and taking more casualties, and then the rebellion starts spreading to Kharkov, Odessa - at that point everything becomes pretty unpredictable.
    Here's the essence of the problem! Here's what it is all about!

    Russia wants TO SHOW Europe how "European" and 'civilized' it actually is. It enters a propaganda war that it cannot win. Never! These "Europeans" will bend the rules of the 'civility game' every step of the way, so that Russia couldn't come out riding the high moral horse - whatever it does and whichever way it bends!

    This is the reason that you FP post hell of a lot more on MP.net than you post here. You want to PROVE to the western audience just how civil and open-minded you are. Yet they never treat you as an equal. They ridicule the 'eastern' posters! (Poles, Romanians and Czechs included, even if they do like their posts there).

    And what is it really that you have to prove to them? NOTHING! Not a single thing!
    Russia is WAY, WAY more civilized than the west ever was! Take Pushkin as an example! How many people of African descent were nobility in England and France in the 18th century?! Well, how many?
    It's sad to see the Russians trying to show their "Europeaness"  to the westerners!

    Aren't Dostoyevsky, Pushkin, Tchaikovsky, Bulgakov, Chekhov, Kandinsky, Mussorgsky, Solzhenitsyn, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tarkovsky, Eisenstein, Malevich, Yesenin, Glinka, Blok, Borodin, Lomonosov, Mendeleev, Zhukovsky, Lermontov, Tolstoy, Gogol, Turgenev, Grigorovich, Ostrovsky, Gorky, Mayakovsky, Pasternak, Brodsky, Sholokhov, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Andrey Rublev, Fedotov, Gleb, Orlov, Rodchenko...
    AND HOW MANY MORE DO I HAVE TO POST?!!! because there are WAY more names to be entered here proof enough of how Russian culture is on par (superior if you ask me) to that of western Europe?

    Why this inferiority complex?! Because "they" are better at organizing things than Slavic peoples are?! Yes, they are. And better at business as well.
    Doesn't mean a thing though. Western Europe is a good marketing scam! That's all it is. They sell their products in better designed packages. Their products are shyte, but they're packaged well. As is their "civility". Yet we all fall for the bright colors on the said packaging...pathetic!

    In Nuland's words: Fuck Europe!
    Russia better start its pivot east. Europe is dead! Asia is where the focus should be. People in the Kremlin seem to understand that (well, I hope they do).
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    Post  Firebird Sat May 31, 2014 9:17 pm

    Sorry Macedonia, I have to disagree with you on one thing.
    Putin knows he can roll into *substantial parts* of the Ukraine and have no worries from the Ukr army, Europe or the US. They're not "too strong" for Russia.

    I dont think that means I'm a "fanboy". It simple, mainstream accepted military assessment of both sides. I've actually been rather critical of Putin and his Mr Clean approach.

    However, I think he considers Donetsk and Lugansk already won. Basically whenever he wants. The issue is that he wants more. Population wise, the bulk of the S and East popln is pro Russia/anti junta. Enough so for a stable, healthy state. The harder part is what the situation is as you go further centrally and upward.

    For Kiev to ever become NATO would leave a terrible taste with Putin. But various federal areas as a EEU- EU crossover territory wouldn't be that bad.. in time.

    I think the federalists/separatists from various regions are actually deciding to concetrate efforts on Don and Lug. for now. ie people from places like Odessa/Kharkov travelling there to fight.

    How it will develop, I'm really not sure.

    I personally find it very unsavoury to see lives being "traded" as part of a bigger picture. Thats why I've begun to ask "what the hell is Putin doing". BUT... maybe I dont know all the facts yet. Infact ofcourse I dont. Either way, its a very sad state of affairs to watch.
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    Post  collegeboy16 Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:35 am

    hoping for a gadafi style lynching of the junta and the militia leaders. also someone off that tie-eater, preferably with a javelin missile.
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    Post  TR1 Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:42 am

    Why would any of you extreme Russophiles even want Russia to get an extremely depressed and unstable region?
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:21 am

    Public Opinion and people support is everything. IF Russia have the support of 90% of all Ukrainian to invade their country and restore
    Order long time ago ,they will have invaded but for now that support is like as low as 30% or a high as 50%.  Too many Ukrainians will
    prefer a bad corrupt government that seeing their nation to split.  There are many Ukrainians that support Russia ,that are friendly or at least Neutral.. and also do not want to lose more territory.  

    However outside Ukraine ,the support for Russia invading in dramatically increasing.. now you see protest in Germany in Support
    of Russia..and i notice is forums Latin American RT forums and overwhelming support for Russia to invade.. they repeating and saying that
    Russia needs to invade.  In my opinion what Russia is doing is waiting for public opinion to be there to invade..  and they trying to see Survey
    in All Europe but also in all Russia to see where does Public Opinion stand..  public opinion is everything.  If for example Russia invade..
    its extremely important for Russia Federation that Russian people in the main land but also Ukrainians understand ..
    That Russia is invading for stealing Lands ,but to stop a Genocide against civilians.

    One thing Russia can do is create a buffer zone. with its army for civilians who wants to leave Ukraine to Russia from Donetsk and Lugansk to do it and warn them ,that it will be dangerous for them to stay and that they will be temporarily there and will leave in days and stay no more  until all civilians who wants to leave evacuate.  The major problem however with such measure is the war in Syria.. That if Putin
    creates a buffer zone in Ukraine ,it will encourage NATO to do the same in Syria and directly help with their armies to smuggle a huge army of terrorist in Syria.  So Russia invasion in Ukraine could backfire by NATO invading Syria..in a place that is very problematic if not next to impossible ,to defend for Russia because Syria is Bordering Turkey ,Jordan and Israel , and those countries coalition could pose Serious Danger for Russia navy at the Syria coast. Specially if attacked by their airforces.

    The new training military exercises ordered by Russia on sunday near Ukraine border is an indication they have not given up the idea of invading if Ukraine Army continue attacking civilians. What in my opinion Russia is doing is waiting for more Public Support withing the EU ,but more especially withing Ukrainians in all parts in the nation to raise. and also of course more support  in the Russian Federation civilians for that. If you do not have a strong public opinion support.. Russia will be at risk.. of Uniting Ukrainians more with their Government against Russia . i Think Russia will do it in the end sooner or later and thats the real goal of the Ukrainian army shelling
    civilians cities.

    Meanwhile Ukraine army again is shelling Donetsk.. and aiming at its industries. It become more and more clear that the kiev goals is
    to stop all business in Donetsk Republic and collapse its economy. And trying to break civilians will to fight back the government through artillery..

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 31 1043508

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/734199
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    Post  etaepsilonk Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:00 am

    TR1 wrote:Why would any of you extreme Russophiles even want Russia to get an extremely depressed and unstable region?

    Although the question seems to be addressed not to me, but I'll try to guess: Danube river?  Wink 


    ------------------------
    Looks like ze rebels have access to ZU-23:
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:51 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Shoigu announcing new maneuvers near Ukr. border due to increased attacks on civilian population in the SE  Question 


    Cyberspec,

    What is the date of this announcement? Do you have anything additional on this?
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:54 am

    What is the date of this announcement? Do you have anything additional on this?

    The video is from yesterday, but it might be of an older event. That's why I was asking as well...

    ....

    Regarding how "strong" the EU/US is regarding Ukraine, keep in mind that they do not have the money to support Ukraine which cannot survive as a country without trade with Russia. They know that....they believe they have leverage over Russia because they can disrupt and control Russian gas supplies to Europe. The longer this goes on, the worst their position will become. Without a functioning economy, there is only so much oligarch money can achieve.

    Also, there doesn't seem to be a functioning Ukr. Army. If there was, the rebels would have been cleared up long ago. In almost 2 months of fighting, they haven't recaptured a single town. They can't even afford to rotate their people from the front because there's no reserves left. I just saw a report that they're trying to force traffic police to go and fight on the front..basically they've thrown just about everything they've got at the rebels (except heavy artillery) and haven't achieved much.
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    Post  mack8 Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:16 am

    macedonian wrote:

    Here's the essence of the problem! Here's what it is all about!

    Russia wants TO SHOW Europe how "European" and 'civilized' it actually is. It enters a propaganda war that it cannot win. Never! These "Europeans" will bend the rules of the 'civility game' every step of the way, so that Russia couldn't come out riding the high moral horse - whatever it does and whichever way it bends!

    This is the reason that you FP post hell of a lot more on MP.net than you post here. You want to PROVE to the western audience just how civil and open-minded you are. Yet they never treat you as an equal. They ridicule the 'eastern' posters! (Poles, Romanians and Czechs included, even if they do like their posts there).

    And what is it really that you have to prove to them? NOTHING! Not a single thing!
    Russia is WAY, WAY more civilized than the west ever was! Take Pushkin as an example! How many people of African descent were nobility in England and France in the 18th century?! Well, how many?
    It's sad to see the Russians trying to show their "Europeaness"  to the westerners!

    Aren't Dostoyevsky, Pushkin, Tchaikovsky, Bulgakov, Chekhov, Kandinsky, Mussorgsky, Solzhenitsyn, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tarkovsky, Eisenstein, Malevich, Yesenin, Glinka, Blok, Borodin, Lomonosov, Mendeleev, Zhukovsky, Lermontov, Tolstoy, Gogol, Turgenev, Grigorovich, Ostrovsky, Gorky, Mayakovsky, Pasternak, Brodsky, Sholokhov, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Andrey Rublev, Fedotov, Gleb, Orlov, Rodchenko...
    AND HOW MANY MORE DO I HAVE TO POST?!!! because there are WAY more names to be entered here proof enough of how Russian culture is on par (superior if you ask me) to that of western Europe?

    Why this inferiority complex?! Because "they" are better at organizing things than Slavic peoples are?! Yes, they are. And better at business as well.
    Doesn't mean a thing though. Western Europe is a good marketing scam! That's all it is. They sell their products in better designed packages. Their products are shyte, but they're packaged well. As is their "civility". Yet we all fall for the bright colors on the said packaging...pathetic!

    In Nuland's words: Fuck Europe!
    Russia better start its pivot east. Europe is dead! Asia is where the focus should be. People in the Kremlin seem to understand that (well, I hope they do).

    Sorry, but your visceral hate (and half coherent racist rant about what culture is "better"- you keep mentioning the 19th century , well i'm afraid your views belong there) for Europe cannot mask one thing: this whole Ukraine mess is a US show, not an Europe show. EU and Europe is what it is today because of the spineless vassal traitors serving the US and betraying their own peoples, and not because the people WANT to (there is a paradox here, which maybe i'll get one day to explain). Personal experience: one day not very long ago, i was talking with your typical stereotypical welsh folks (one ex- RAF ground crew) about the Crimea thing. What do you think their opinion was on that? No, you're wrong. The gist of what they said goes something like "I can understand them/their actions- the russians. When they had missiles in Cuba the americans were all over/ mad, now it's the same thing really, the americans are messing in their back yard- Ukraine. We should rather have no part in this"-or something to that effect. Surprised?

    With all due respect Macedonian, but it is peoples with the kind of views you have who are best serving (knowingly or not) empires from  thousands of kilometers away, being stirred to viscerally hate their own neighbours based of nationality, race, religion etc, even if put side by side one cannot say which is which, and being anchored in a hopelessly archaic view of the world around.  Divide and conquer, just like Yugoslavia, stirring neighbour against neighbour to hate and kill eachother and breaking a once powerful european country (which today could have very well been the most powerful in the eastern Europe-and likely a  reliable russian ally) into a bewildering array of small and largely insignificant little countries easy to dominate and push around.

    On and yeah, whether you like it or not, you are also an european, just like i am. There are slavs and latins and nordic folks and so on and so on in Europe, but whether you like it or not we are ALL europeans living on the same land, neighbours, brothers. The only way forward for all of us is and will only be unity, not divide.
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    Post  macedonian Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:40 am

    mack8 wrote:Sorry, but your visceral hate...
    True, I have deep hatred of hypocrisy...
    mack8 wrote:(and half coherent...
    It's coherent enough for anyone that doesn't lack the intelligence to understand it.
    mack8 wrote:...racist rant about what culture is "better"
    I was actually making a point on just how anti-racist Russia was in the 19th century, a claim that most European nations cannot make.
    mack8 wrote:- you keep mentioning the 19th century
    I only mentioned it once and in the aforementioned context.
    mack8 wrote:, well i'm afraid your views belong there)
    Oh, an Ad Hominem attack?! How very eloquent of you. Well, when lacking proper arguments...
    mack8 wrote:for Europe cannot mask one thing: this whole Ukraine mess is a US show, not an Europe show.
    I seem to remember the EU going along with it nicely. The very protests began when the EU bureaucracy gave Yanukovich an ultimatum: "You're either with Russia, or with us"!
    mack8 wrote:EU and Europe is what it is today because of the spineless vassal traitors serving the US and betraying their own peoples, and not because the people WANT to
    You can add deluded 'Europeans' such as yourself who dream about 'United Europe' disregarding all the Con's, and focusing only on the Pro's. People like you feed the EU bureaucracy and help it prosper. The reason why the US can meddle in the EU is that it helped making the very idea of the EU alive, so that it can centralize their efforts in meddling. The EU does not equall a democracy, because all of their policies are made by unelected bureaucrats...just the way Uncle Sam want's it...
    mack8 wrote:(there is a paradox here, which maybe i'll get one day to explain).
    Oh I'm looking forward to that (no doubt) very intellectual dissection.
    mack8 wrote:Personal experience: one day not very long ago, i was talking with your typical stereotypical welsh folks (one ex- RAF ground crew) about the Crimea thing.
    I had a Welsh roommate in London, and I often found his opinions of great value. Wasn't aware that there are "typical stereotypical welsh folks" as you so eloquently put it. I thought their opinions differ as with every single nation. Personal note: There are far more Macedonians that (like yourself) believe in this whole EU scam, than there are Eurosceptics like myself.
    mack8 wrote:What do you think their opinion was on that? No, you're wrong. The gist of what they said goes something like "I can understand them/their actions- the russians. When they had missiles in Cuba the americans were all over/ mad, now it's the same thing really, the americans are messing in their back yard- Ukraine. We should rather have no part in this"-or something to that effect. Surprised?
    No, not really.
    It figures that a Welshman wouldn't want to sacrifice himself for American interests. But I love the way you make assumptions and later in the sentence treat your assumptions as hard facts. You'd fit in the BBC or CNN quite nicely. They always need spin doctors there that can fabricate facts out of thin air, and you, my friend have got the talent they seek. So, a career prospect at the BBC, eh...sounds nice?
    mack8 wrote:With all due respect Macedonian, but it is peoples with the kind of views you have who are best serving (knowingly or not) empires from  thousands of kilometers away, being stirred to viscerally hate their own neighbours based of nationality, race, religion etc, even if put side by side one cannot say which is which, and being anchored in a hopelessly archaic view of the world around.
    Not a History buff, I see. Had you studied History, you'd know that it's actually people like yourself that at some point swallowed 'a great idea' being sold to them by the rulers, that are the actual contributors of violent regimes. Hitler had his 'Racial purity' to sell, Lenin had his 'Worker equality', and the EU has its 'Democracy and uniteness'. It's propaganda to sell to the masses, none of it actually works. Yet people like you buy into the stuff, ready to sacrifice themselves for 'The Idea'.
    mack8 wrote:Divide and conquer, just like Yugoslavia, stirring neighbour against neighbour to hate and kill eachother and breaking a once powerful european country (which today could have very well been the most powerful in the eastern Europe-and likely a  reliable russian ally) into a bewildering array of small and largely insignificant little countries easy to dominate and push around.
    I'm guessing you have better knowledge of Yugoslavia than? Well, what do I know - I merely lived in it, and was an active witness of its downfall. And took Bosnian Muslim refugees in MY OWN HOUSE to help them out in their time of need. But, please continue the discussion, you seem very eloquent and well mannered....right...
    mack8 wrote:On and yeah, whether you like it or not, you are also an european, just like i am.
    Never said anything to the contrary. We just have differences on the definition of the thing.
    mack8 wrote:There are slavs and latins and nordic folks and so on and so on in Europe, but whether you like it or not we are ALL europeans living on the same land, neighbours, brothers.
    Brothers?! We have more things different, than we have in common! I have friends that are Japanese that I agree with (that I would REALLY call brothers), but it would offend them if I told them we are alike! Because we're not!
    Besides, with my track record of Swedish girlfriends...what we did...well...it would be incest...
    mack8 wrote:The only way forward for all of us is and will only be unity, not divide.
    Actually, Scandinavia is a great example. They have their different policies, some of them are in the EU, some are in NATO, but they all seem to manage well together, and live like a big family. So, no, the EU is not the answer! It's adding petrol to the fire...but I guess you'll never acknowledge that. Even if Hungary started bombing Romania one day, you'd still be pushing this 'EU Brothers' idea.
    Now tell me - who exactly is 'the tool' here?
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:02 pm

    There is no question that the entire violence and civil war in Ukraine is 100% to blame to US and EU (the major allies in EU).
    They are the ones who orchestrated the entire Arab Spring for the total control of all Middle east but also north Africa energy Resources
    and strategic zones in case of War with Russia. I can assure you ,the Arab spring did not gave democracy to any nation who had a revolution and it was 100% aimed at Russia. Mubarack in egypt was an ally of the west  ,and was only removed from not being 100% loyal to USA policies. and was replaced by Morsi who had american citizenship and was going to be a perfect puppet. The only thing Arab spring achieved was to make Alqaeda more powerful and have control of entire nations.. as the case of Libya.



    SO what happen in Ukraine is no different to what happened in YUgoeslavia ,Libya ,Serbia (in terms of objectives) , simply United States mafia is trying to create a
    world empire and Russia is their only obstacle for that is Russia. (China is more a inward looking nation and do not interfere much in US policies)  since they can't fight Russia directly for its Nuclear weapons ,they seek instead to sabotage its economy by Isolating them.
    Every single foreign policy of US  ,even the smallest one insignificant ones , are all aimed to Not only isolate Russia economically but also to make European culture 100% incompatible with Russia. So this is all the fuzz about Gay propaganda and the Promotion of Islam and sharia laws.. As now UK allows..  the white house wants to keep Russia totally isolated and try to repeat a soviet union like collapse. They also
    want to get NATO military bases right at ALL Russian Borders..

    So its an economic full scale war..  So this makes any nation ,that is a weapon client of Russia a legitimate target.. Libya (check) ,Iraq (invaded but failed) ,Syria ,IRAN,India ,venezuela and most Latin America. Anyone thinks is "coincidence " that Alqaeda is in Syria and in IRAQ? but totally ignore Israel ,Jordan ,Turkey ,saudi Arabia and Qatar? is not coincidence . Alqaeda are Neocons private armies and their aim is to create Governments friendly to US and Israel interest. ALqaeda is manipulated by financing their religious leaders .I have no idea what the Fuck the Europeans are waiting to get rid of NATO and US military bases from their territory. NATO  is only an entity to help maintain US global Dominance at the expense of your nation development and people freedoms.

    And under one world US/Neocons Empire , life is not going to be pretty ,with a police state . You are not going to like being spied 100% of the time with a dictatorship ,telling you to eat genetic modified food , and to force you to pay taxes even for the air you breath. The total loss of your freedoms is what will come next.. Global Empires cannot maintain its power without massive  control and repression of society.

    Any Extremes and Radicals groups like jihadist Muslins and NeoNazis in all europe are potential weapons that the Pentagon can train for combat and use as mercenaries against Russia or Russian allies like Syria.. for nothing in Syria fight mercenaries from more than 38 nations.. NATO smuggle them into Turkey using their military planes and from there transported to Syria by Turkey..As we discuss NATO sponsored Terrorist are planning a suicide bombing attack on civilians in Syria.  If any European country elect a friendly leader to Russia.. then the white house will repeat an Ukraine revolution to overthrow a legitimate Democracy and replace their leaders with extremist groups that are hostile to Russia.  Simply The Day the Europe becomes close to Russia in trade and relations it will be the end of the US empire..and its Dollar stop being used as world currency.  All those American military bases will need to leave ,and the world finally will experience a real development and progress and people will aim its budget not in military but in helping society ,country development and full race for  exploration of Space.  I think the world will be better if we did not had wars for dominating the world and instead the competition was all expressed in sports and for traveling to space and creating colonies in Moon ,Mars and others places.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  macedonian Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:27 pm

    Vann7 wrote:There is no question that the entire violence and civil war in Ukraine is 100% to blame to US and EU (the major allies in EU).

    Oh, I have no doubt about that (as many others here too - know that to be true). It's just that it's fun to see 'the EU apologists' at work. Their 'arguments' never fail to bring a laugh about...it's like a Tony Blair marathon - funnier than Monty Python, that lot.
    Never can tell if they're serious, or just havin' a laugh...
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    Post  As Sa'iqa Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:42 pm

    All that tinfoiling about the evil US-Zionist-Reptilian(?) plot to rule the world is just pathetic. Show me one country in the world that DOES NOT want to expand it's sphere of influence. Maybe Switzerland and a few micro countries don't want to. But countries with huge populations and rich economies simply cannot afford isolationism. You either compete and try to get the largest piece of cake or you give up and lose.

    I mentioned Switzerland for purpose. It's neutral (is neither in the EU nor in NATO) and has a multicultural population consisting of four nationalities (that differ far more than Russians and Ukrainians or the South Slavs). Somehow, there are no Zionist-sponsored civil wars going on there and the country has been totally peaceful for hundreds of years.
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:59 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:All that tinfoiling about the evil US-Zionist-Reptilian(?) plot to rule the world is just pathetic. Show me one country in the world that DOES NOT want to expand it's sphere of influence. Maybe Switzerland and a few micro countries don't want to. But countries with huge populations and rich economies simply cannot afford isolationism. You either compete and try to get the largest piece of cake or you give up and lose.

    I mentioned Switzerland for purpose. It's neutral (is neither in the EU nor in NATO) and has a multicultural population consisting of four nationalities (that differ far more than Russians and Ukrainians or the South Slavs). Somehow, there are no Zionist-sponsored civil wars going on there and the country has been totally peaceful for hundreds of years.

    You tinfoiled nuts polish guy again who have been over more than one century conditioned to believe they are not slavic nation to hate slavic people.

    You are completley nuts denying facts of the US orchestered "revolutions", ignoring facts like use of snipers, leaked phone calls, statement of doctors that the bullets came from the exact same weapons which shot both on police and "demonstrants". Denying the fact that facists are in Kiew obeying american order.

    You are so manipulated by the British tactics of conditioning people that you hate your own and are willing to harm yourself in gain of power for evil scum.

    The entire Ukraine "demo" against Yanukowich was planned for month if not longer, they have even organized dozens of Dixi toilettes on Maidan in advance before those "revolution" has been carried out.

    Such Dixi tois are expensive to rent and especially for those people who haven't been paid since yanuary. People where paid by dubious men to demonstrate on Maidan, which is also proven, same as they have several times done in Russia for Anti Putin demonstrations paid by Anna Rosa an ukrainian cunt working for an american NGO since years.

    Such an organized "spontan revolution" of broke people who where demonstrating against a "corrupt" government for not paying them well..... but they can still afford and organize a 20.000 men demosntration, paying rent for mobile toilettes, paying "demonstrants" for peaceful violence, burning, shooting of policemen.

    Yes sure it is all spontanously, nothing was organized, they just found the money.


    Last edited by Werewolf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  arpakola Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:03 pm



    people in donetsk trampling sweets of Poroshenko's manufacture.
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    Post  As Sa'iqa Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:05 pm

    Shocked Oh yeah. We are enslaved, we just don't know about it. Rolling Eyes This is in fact Lenin's idea.

    You cannot artificially cause a revolution in a country if at least a part of the population isn't disillusioned about the ruling elite. You may try hard to cause a civil war in e.g. Norway or Switzerland and you will end up with nothing. Everything you can hope for is using already existing trends in the society and then use it for your advantage... Or maybe you believe that all these people protesting in Syria and Ukraine were in fact mercenaries dropped on parachutes.
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    Post  macedonian Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:09 pm

    Werewolf wrote:You tinfoiled nuts polish guy again who have been over more than one century conditioned to believe they are not slavic nation to hate slavic people.

    Great comment, who can argue with the truth?!

    As Sa'iqa wrote:Shocked Oh yeah. We are enslaved, we just don't know about it. Rolling Eyes This is in fact Lenin's idea.

    Apparently idiots can...nevermind...
    Carry on...
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    Post  As Sa'iqa Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:24 pm

    So far the answers aren't that promising. I thought you can do it better.

    One question (which, I guess, nobody would answer) is why there is such a huge migration out of Ukraine. Plenty of Ukrainians are living in Poland, while migration in the opposite direction (from Poland to Ukraine) does not take place. Ecen more people migrate to W. Europe in order to work there. And people flock to places in which life is better, not to places where it's worse.

    And how the hell did werewolf get the ideo of some propaganda trying to convince Poles that we aren't Slavs!? I haven't heard of anyone even proposing such an idea. I just hope he did not get it from pravda.ru.

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