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    Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:07 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:[/b]


    Logistics is a very critical asset for any military, big or small, the bigger it is the better must be the logistics and buying C-17 and Chinook despite better option is certainly not appearing to me as a unbiased and unlobbied decision.

    Bro both these deals are for China border and has been done to keep US in loop regarding India's dispute with China and china encircling India in indian ocean and arming Packston heavily against us


    Bro India is forced to involve US specifically for China and India has too joined BRICS only for Russia
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:India is not powerless in this situation... the Russians will certainly consult the Indians first... but in the cases where Russia offers systems to Pakistan it is generally systems India has already rejected.

    For instance the Mi-35 for Pakistan... India rejected the Mi-28N. India was not interested in a jet training aircraft from Russia so it would make sense for Russia to offer Yak-130s or even MiG-ATs to Pakistan...

    i agree 100% with you, Russia do no need to consult India but our relations are so much strong on higher levels that both will never do anything which is against the national interest of other
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:28 pm

    The apache helicopter sales were my favorite. While India operates various Russian helicopters, they opted for attack choppers from US using completely different components than the rest, and costing a fortune.

    What makes me laugh even more is that this is the same US that sells billions of $$$ in offensive weaponry to Pakistan. Like F-16's, which they offered to India as well.

    Yes, it is no secret that China causes issues with India at the borders. But it is also up to India to protect its own borders and put their foot down regarding territorial integrity. They seem to do it politically somewhat but not militarily. Trying to get US involved as one member here said, is showing both India's weakness as well as impartial position to create change in the world, thus they are not reliable.

    China seems to have no problem putting its foot down, even against USA. Even if India's defense budget is small compared to China's, they still manage to buy lots of expensive equipment. They just gotta start showing their teeth too. If they want respect.

    If US gets to sell Pakistan attack choppers, as well as upgrades to them, and then gets to sell their other attack choppers to India, well, I cant see why Russia cannot. They have given India tech transfers that US wouldnt even dare to give. Yet US is getting growth in defense deals with India.

    Werewolf is right, india cant just sit on two chairs at once.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:55 pm

    sepheronx wrote:The apache helicopter sales were my favorite. While India operates various Russian helicopters, they opted for attack choppers from US using completely different components than the rest, and costing a fortune.

    What makes me laugh even more is that this is the same US that sells billions of $$$ in offensive weaponry to Pakistan. Like F-16's, which they offered to India as well.

    Yes, it is no secret that China causes issues with India at the borders. But it is also up to India to protect its own borders and put their foot down regarding territorial integrity. They seem to do it politically somewhat but not militarily. Trying to get US involved as one member here said, is showing both India's weakness as well as impartial position to create change in the world, thus they are not reliable.

    China seems to have no problem putting its foot down, even against USA. Even if India's defense budget is small compared to China's, they still manage to buy lots of expensive equipment. They just gotta start showing their teeth too. If they want respect.

    If US gets to sell Pakistan attack choppers, as well as upgrades to them, and then gets to sell their other attack choppers to India, well, I cant see why Russia cannot. They have given India tech transfers that US wouldnt even dare to give. Yet US is getting growth in defense deals with India.

    Werewolf is right, india cant just sit on two chairs at once.

    India will never sit in two chairs bro, India always had a strong bias towards soviets even when NAM movement was at its peak but its also truth that India always had taken weapons from west particularly France( Mirage 2000) in 1980's and carriers from england including hawk trainer aircrafts. Russia too can certainly sell Pakistan without bothering about India but up to a point. But What causes concern in India is China too is arming Pak to the teeth along with double gamer US.

    Choppers deal has been given specifically given to US along with light howitzers artillery for our eastern neighbor. we are facing two level threats at the moment and relations with US must be seen in that context. China might be putting its foot down against US but it causes concern in them too when India, US, japan, Singapore do exercises in Indian oceans. India do not wish to start border tension with China because china very cleverly keeping India busy in western front by popping up Pakistan and it will be foolish for India to open another border confrontation with China

    China has all the high tech weapons including fighters from Russia till now if war happens today. Thats why Rafale has been roped in to counter that threat and after 3-4 yrs when FGFA comes to IAF then our worries will be somewhat subdued. Its easier said then done that India fights both china and pak together both nuclear armed and armed to the teeth. so we need to have diverse sort of weapons specifically as per demands of our forces to counter these combined threats

    Sum of the issue is any one can still check every year Russia is getting more defense orders from India then any other country. Time cycle has come for fresh orders beginning Nov 2015 when Indian PM visit Russia with FGFA deal being signed and this alone is going to be be mother of all deals apart from frigates, subs including one nuclear on lease, Armata tank
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:22 pm

    I think you do not understand or avoid such thoughts, but the issue with India between two chairs is not that it is relying on reliable partner, while only one of them is a reliable partner which is russia, the US and France and countries alike of NATO are unreliable and that has been proven. The problem that india faces is that in case they purchase relevant weapons from the west like transport aircraft without full ToT licenses to produce it themselfs they can get into a situation where US will pressure India for political reasons and use this as a leverage like they did with France over Mistral. Relying on political motivated countries that have hegemonic bias of their own political importance, they will not hesitate and use this against India. That is certainly a problem and India has only one Partner as right now that is russia, why wasting any money, effeciency sacrifice and risking future political gamble with the own security and political independence over some stuff which US is not even offering full technology transfer while India is producing several russian technologies in their own country, not facing any difficulties or embargo risks?

    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:36 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I think you do not understand or avoid such thoughts, but the issue with India between two chairs is not that it is relying on reliable partner, while only one of them is a reliable partner which is russia, the US and France and countries alike of NATO are unreliable and that has been proven. The problem that india faces is that in case they purchase relevant weapons from the west like transport aircraft without full ToT licenses to produce it themselfs they can get into a situation where US will pressure India for political reasons and use this as a leverage like they did with France over Mistral. Relying on political motivated countries that have hegemonic bias of their own political importance, they will not hesitate and use this against India. That is certainly a problem and India has only one Partner as right now that is russia, why wasting any money, effeciency sacrifice and risking future political gamble with the own security and political independence over some stuff which US is not even offering full technology transfer while India is producing several russian technologies in their own country, not facing any difficulties or embargo risks?


    Now we have come to point in discussion where our view point meet, majority of Indian Public too is against India procuring major weapons frm US because we see friends in Russia and US even Indian govt knows will dump its ally when its interests are over. Lets see how long this bonhomie continues with US, personally i prefer Russia like majority of Indians do. We i am sure will never buy anything related to critical weapons frm US

    1. For c 17 and globemaster we have IL 76

    2. apache we are buying only around 30 still we have Russian attack helis and more night hunter could be bought

    3. For fighters our 80% needs are met by Russia and so does the army with over 90% Russian arms

    4. Indian Navy has 80% Russian warships or the ones we making with Russian help. after scorpene fiasco with france in over delays and cost running high we will fo this time for Russian subs in around 14 b $ deal
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    Post  max steel Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:00 pm

    US has recently  proposed a joint " F-16IN(india) " fighter jet deal to India where both of them will contribute just like pakfa progrm. India hasnt responded yet.
    Pinto
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    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 4 Empty Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM

    Post  Pinto Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:23 pm

    NIZHYNY TAGIL: Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister (FM) Sergei Ryabkov said, Sputnik reported.

    Earlier this year, a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation was quoted by the Russian news agency TASS.

    Increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India, Ryabkov said, adding that Pak-Russia ties were improving in other sectors as well ─ including energy.

    The Russian Deputy FM Ryabkov referred to Pakistan as Russia's closest partner and said, "I do not think that the contacts under discussion will cause jealousy on the part of any of the two sides."

    Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.


    http://www.dawn.com/news/1206088
    Pinto
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    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 4 Empty Will not take any step detrimental to India's security: Russia

    Post  Pinto Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:54 pm

    http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/will-not-take-any-step-detrimental-to-indias-security-russia_1779696.html
    | Zee News
    Last Updated: Thursday, September 10, 2015 - 23:54


    New Delhi: Russia on Thursday said that it will never take any step detrimental to the security and safety of its special strategic partner India.

    Russian Embassy here issued a statement in the backdrop of a report that said Russia and Pakistan were in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.

    "Time and again, the Russian leaders have stated at the highest level that Russia will never take any steps detrimental to the security and safety of our special and privileged strategic partner ? India, or the security structure in the South Asian region, or any other region for that matter," the statement said.

    "This assurance is fully valid today as it was valid yesterday. This is the guideline of our President's foreign policy concept," it said.

    "As regards the newspaper report from Nizhni Tagil, it is a sheer case of overstatement by the agency, on the one hand, and of overreaction by a section of the Indian media, - on the other," it added.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:54 am

    lol, I'm starting to suspect that Moscow is starting to play India's hardball game, where it likes to play off multiple suppliers against each other Smile

    Russia on the other hand is playing off customers against each other Cool
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:58 am

    Either that or Deputy PM is an idiot. Pakistan barely buys anything from Russia while India buys tens of billions.  Way more than what Pakistan even spends in 5 years.

    As well, Indias investments in Russia greatly outpaces Pakistans. Actually, I dont think Pakistan has any investments in Russia.

    Russia better get its politicians in line, or they may lose their position of second largest supplier and will lose tens of billions of investment. Not good in current economic affairs.

    Especially with Pakistan having bad relations with both India and Iran.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:09 am

    flamming_python wrote:lol, I'm starting to suspect that Moscow is starting to play India's hardball game, where it likes to play off multiple suppliers against each other Smile

    Russia on the other hand is playing off customers against each other Cool

    well bro lets see which way this deal turn out to be its very offensive warplane and indian govt will be pressure from general public which support pro Russia stand of govt
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:11 am

    sepheronx wrote:Either that or Deputy PM is an idiot. Pakistan barely buys anything from Russia while India buys tens of billions.  Way more than what Pakistan even spends in 5 years.

    As well, Indias investments in Russia greatly outpaces Pakistans.  Actually, I dont think Pakistan has any investments in Russia.

    Russia better get its politicians in line, or they may lose their position of second largest supplier and will lose tens of billions of investment. Not good in current economic affairs.

    Especially with Pakistan having bad relations with both India and Iran.

    During next 5 years India will spend roughly 35-40$ on Russian arms, and annual defence budget of pakistan is 7 b$ so you can assume clearly weather this deal will happen or not

    Indian govt and its people will closely watch this Russian move as relations with Russia has been always special
    zg18
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    Post  zg18 Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:54 am

    sepheronx wrote:Either that or Deputy PM is an idiot. Pakistan barely buys anything from Russia while India buys tens of billions.  Way more than what Pakistan even spends in 5 years.

    As well, Indias investments in Russia greatly outpaces Pakistans.  Actually, I dont think Pakistan has any investments in Russia.

    Russia better get its politicians in line, or they may lose their position of second largest supplier and will lose tens of billions of investment. Not good in current economic affairs.

    Especially with Pakistan having bad relations with both India and Iran.

    Don`t worry , it`s pressure tactics on US lobby in India whose prime goal is to replace Russia as main supplier for Indian armed forces. Since US is not going to sell most modern weaponry to Pakistan (not because of India) , idea is that Russia might which will firmly put India`s generals to stay faithful to Russian arms. Arms market competition is not for gentlemen and often is hard bargain and trade off.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:03 pm

    Well Russia will sell Pakistan arms but not an offensive and balance shifting war plane like SU 35. India and Russia friendships is decades old and its not going ti be affected by couple of Russian deals with Pakistan for helis or transport or trainer planes
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:53 pm

    I know my wife was making comments about this. But she makes a good point - Everyone uses a deputy minister in anything to push an "idea" and to see the reactions, since the deputy minister doesn't have any power in nearly anything.

    I also doubt it happening. Su-35 just won't sell due to being too expensive and you can get close performance from Su-30SM.
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    Post  Guest Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:44 pm

    "Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

    Whether Russia would damage its relations with India to sell fighters to Pakistan seems dubious, however, according to the report, which also said that a small number of Su-35 fighters would not strengthen the Pakistan Air Force to any degree against the Indian Air Force, which has hundreds of Su-30MKI fighters purchased from Russia in service.

    China has traditionally been the main supplier of military aircraft to Pakistan, the report pointed out. Beijing and Islamabad's close relationship since the 1950s may be prone to the covert collection of technological secrets by the PLA Air Force through the Pakistan Air Force. If Russia suspected such a leak, it would likely forego sales to Pakistan, according to the report."

    Source: http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20150916000037

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    Post  par far Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:37 pm

    Militarov wrote:"Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

    Whether Russia would damage its relations with India to sell fighters to Pakistan seems dubious, however, according to the report, which also said that a small number of Su-35 fighters would not strengthen the Pakistan Air Force to any degree against the Indian Air Force, which has hundreds of Su-30MKI fighters purchased from Russia in service.

    China has traditionally been the main supplier of military aircraft to Pakistan, the report pointed out. Beijing and Islamabad's close relationship since the 1950s may be prone to the covert collection of technological secrets by the PLA Air Force through the Pakistan Air Force. If Russia suspected such a leak, it would likely forego sales to Pakistan, according to the report."

    Source: http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20150916000037



    Russia is really trying to piss off India, isn't it?
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:08 pm

    Militarov wrote:"Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

    Whether Russia would damage its relations with India to sell fighters to Pakistan seems dubious, however, according to the report, which also said that a small number of Su-35 fighters would not strengthen the Pakistan Air Force to any degree against the Indian Air Force, which has hundreds of Su-30MKI fighters purchased from Russia in service.

    China has traditionally been the main supplier of military aircraft to Pakistan, the report pointed out. Beijing and Islamabad's close relationship since the 1950s may be prone to the covert collection of technological secrets by the PLA Air Force through the Pakistan Air Force. If Russia suspected such a leak, it would likely forego sales to Pakistan, according to the report."

    Source: http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20150916000037


    It wont amount to anything. Pakistan is a small fry compared to India's deep pockets, I suspect this is no more than posturing to 'encourage' India to acquire a few for themselves.
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    Post  mutantsushi Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:09 am

    India is not on board Eurasian integration bandwagon.
    Even when more info was leaked on 62 war with China, they refuse to declassify it and face facts of their aggression.
    They simply want to maintain conflict with China... never mind that current LoC is due to China voluntarily withdrawing.
    Likewise they have obsession with impeding Pakistan in Afghanistan, as if that could change balance of power with India.

    Not particularly sure about this Su-35 deal, but that is the larger picture...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:37 am

    or maybe just business negotiations´ strategy? buy from us not US otherwise we sell it to your sworn  geopolitical foe ?
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    Post  max steel Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:52 am

    mutantsushi wrote:India is not on board Eurasian integration bandwagon.
    Even when more info was leaked on 62 war with China, they refuse to declassify it and face facts of their aggression.
    They simply want to maintain conflict with China... never mind that current LoC is due to China voluntarily withdrawing.
    Likewise they have obsession with impeding Pakistan in Afghanistan, as if that could change balance of power with India.

    Not particularly sure about this Su-35 deal, but that is the larger picture...


    You know nothing about India - China border issues and aiding pakistan nuclear program + Chinese occupied Indian states. India is pretty much at par in Eurasian Bandwagon.
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    Post  OminousSpudd Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:54 am

    It'd be lovely if the Asian nations could put aside their plethora of disputes, even if it was just simply long enough to help Russia and its allies in putting the US beast to rest.

    It seems it is too much to ask... Mad
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    Post  Pinto Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:49 am

    Pakistan is negotiating a deal to purchase Sukhoi-35 'Flanker E' fighter jets from Russia, which is expected to be the largest defense deal between the two countries, according to IHS Jane’s.

    A senior Pakistani government official confirmed the discussions between Pakistan and Russia regarding the supply of Su-35 fighter jets. However, the official emphasized that it is “too early” to tell whether both countries will reach an agreement.

    Previous reports indicated that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov revealed that the two countries are in talks on the supply of Su-35 fighter jets.

    According to the Pakistani official, they are interested in the Su-35 fighter jets because the country’s Air Force needs a twin-engine fighter with the capacity to fly longer range than the JF-17 and to penetrate deeply into the enemy’s territory.

    Pakistan’s Air Force has a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) F16 Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder. China and Pakistan partnered in producing the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.

    Pakistan strengthening relations with Russia

    Pakistan has been strengthening its relationship with Russia while facing increasing tensions with the United States regarding its efforts to fight the Islamic militants in the region. The U.S. considers Pakistan as an unreliable partner in fighting terrorist groups.

    Pakistan recently agreed to purchase Mi-35 “Hinde E” attack helicopters from Russia. The Pakistani government did not reveal the details of the deal including the value and schedule for the delivery of the Mi-35 helicopters.

    Last year, Russia and Pakistan signed a bilateral defense cooperation agreement to boost its military-to-military relations. Both countries are expected to sign a technical cooperation agreement for the sale of Russian military equipment to Islamabad.

    Both countries are also expected to sign the North-South gas pipeline agreement by the end of September, according to Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak.

    India would be extremely upset with Pakistan-Russia deal

    Defense industry analysts suggested that Russia is willing to sell advance hardware to Pakistan despite its longstanding relationship with India. The Russian government also signed a defense cooperation agreement with the Pakistani government in November last year.

    Brian Cloughley, an author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad commented, “The Indians would be extremely upset to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”

    India previously stated that Russia is crossing the “red line” for selling military hardware to Pakistan.

    On the other hand, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov emphasized that the country’s relationship with India will no be affected by its expanding military cooperation with Pakistan.

    Ryabkov explained that Russia and Pakistan are close partners
    ,
    and India will not be jealous on the contract under negotiations involving the Su-35 fighter jets and Mi-35 helicopters.

    Meanwhile, the trade agreements between Pakistan and Afghanistan have been shelved. The primary issue was whether the Pakistani government would allow trade from India to cross its territory.

    According to Afghanistan Deputy Commerce Minister, Muzamel Shinware, it was “illogical and unfair” not to include Indian trade crossing Pakistan into Afghanistan. On the other hand, a Pakistani official commented, “If you put India on the table, then the whole thing stops."

    http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/09/pakistan-russia-su-35-fighter-jet-deal/
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:59 am

    until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

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