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    Russia - Pakistan military deals

    avatar
    danger007

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    Post  danger007 Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:32 am

    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.


    Indian public and Indian govt sees Russia as an ally regardless of our non-alignment policy. our deals with US like C-130J or Apache etc are not our front line weapons... we are aware of Kill switch (sanctions) comes along with US weapons... recently our DM clarified same thing, Russia will be our Major partner in defence deals... 45 Mig 29K(navy)
                          INS VICKY
                          Submarines
                          Frigates(more deals to come)
                          272 Su 30MKI(to be upgraded soon into Super standards)+ there are chances to Induct more
                          50+ Mig 29 upgrade(MLU)
                          20B$ worth FGFA, PAK-FA
                          200 Ka helicopters+ 3B $ worth 48 MI helicopter deal
                          Brahmos regiments(3rd regiment to be raised more to come)
                         
    Recently DM said, There are plenty other deals under pipeline. which  civilians are not aware.... these are only few deals i mentioned.. now compare this with India purchasing from other side... We are aware of US, we are not fools to fall in their trap....  let me remind one thing.. pakistan armed forces taking US aid for their defence deals... they are non NATO ally with US..
    Pinto
    Pinto

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    Post  Pinto Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:48 am

    mack8 wrote:The RD-33 engines sold for the JF-17 are far more tactically relevant (for India) compared to some helicopters. Like i said before, unless Russia suddenly starts selling to the pakistanis dozens of S-400 batteries and hundreds of Su-35 and Su-34 and so on, i don't see any reason for strain in the current russian-indian strategic partheship over a handful of helos. It would be a very ill-conceived and mistaken reaction if that would happen.

    PS: Oh, i see now Kozhin is talking about Su-35. Hmm... yeah, that wouldn't be terribly good. On the other hand, Russia could just secretely give India the codes! Win-win.Very Happy



    lol!
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:50 am

    danger007 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.


    Indian public and Indian govt sees Russia as an ally regardless of our non-alignment policy. our deals with US like C-130J or Apache etc are not our front line weapons... we are aware of Kill switch (sanctions) comes along with US weapons... recently our DM clarified same thing, Russia will be our Major partner in defence deals... 45 Mig 29K(navy)
                          INS VICKY
                          Submarines
                          Frigates(more deals to come)
                          272 Su 30MKI(to be upgraded soon into Super standards)+ there are chances to Induct more
                          50+ Mig 29 upgrade(MLU)
                          20B$ worth FGFA, PAK-FA
                          200 Ka helicopters+ 3B $ worth 48 MI helicopter deal
                          Brahmos regiments(3rd regiment to be raised more to come)
                         
    Recently DM said, There are plenty other deals under pipeline. which  civilians are not aware.... these are only few deals i mentioned.. now compare this with India purchasing from other side... We are aware of US, we are not fools to fall in their trap....  let me remind one thing.. pakistan armed forces taking US aid for their defence deals... they are non NATO ally with US..

    Hopefully the sanity prevails and this turn out to be a rumor other wise all hell will break loose in India
    mack8
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    Post  mack8 Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:56 am

    Mind you, all this could be about nothing, maybe that Kozhin was thinking of Mi-35, but perhaps he's one of those politicos who couldn't tell the difference between a Mi-35 and a Su-35.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:24 am

    mack8 wrote:Mind you, all this could be about nothing, maybe that Kozhin was thinking of Mi-35, but perhaps he's one of those politicos who couldn't tell the difference between a Mi-35 and a Su-35.

    That was one rumor. And it is Sputnik whom also quoted Kozhin as well. So who knows. But what is funny, I have not heard it anywhere else.
    flamming_python
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    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:17 am

    Pinto wrote:
    danger007 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.


    Indian public and Indian govt sees Russia as an ally regardless of our non-alignment policy. our deals with US like C-130J or Apache etc are not our front line weapons... we are aware of Kill switch (sanctions) comes along with US weapons... recently our DM clarified same thing, Russia will be our Major partner in defence deals... 45 Mig 29K(navy)
                          INS VICKY
                          Submarines
                          Frigates(more deals to come)
                          272 Su 30MKI(to be upgraded soon into Super standards)+ there are chances to Induct more
                          50+ Mig 29 upgrade(MLU)
                          20B$ worth FGFA, PAK-FA
                          200 Ka helicopters+ 3B $ worth 48 MI helicopter deal
                          Brahmos regiments(3rd regiment to be raised more to come)
                         
    Recently DM said, There are plenty other deals under pipeline. which  civilians are not aware.... these are only few deals i mentioned.. now compare this with India purchasing from other side... We are aware of US, we are not fools to fall in their trap....  let me remind one thing.. pakistan armed forces taking US aid for their defence deals... they are non NATO ally with US..

    Hopefully the sanity prevails and this turn out to be a rumor other wise all hell will break loose in India

    A staged India-Russia scandal over Su-35 sales would on the other hand be good PR for it Laughing

    Everyone would want a Su-35 after that, just like the S-300s became hot items after Israel & the US crapping themselves over it.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:08 pm

    [quote="flamming_python"][quote="Pinto"][quote="danger007"]
    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    A staged India-Russia scandal over Su-35 sales would on the other hand be good PR for it Laughing

    Everyone would want a Su-35 after that, just like the S-300s became hot items after Israel & the US crapping themselves over it.

    lol if these rumors gathered the stream the India in fact might be prompted to buy few squadrons, who know what transpires between Putin and Modi in coming winters
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:01 am

    4 Mi-35 thumbsup

    Pakistan, Russia sign landmark defence deal
    Gunner
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    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Pakistan and Russia sign a landmark defence agreement

    Post  Gunner Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:29 am

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and Russia on Wednesday signed a landmark defence deal that includes the sale of four Mi-35 ‘Hind E’ attack helicopters to Pakistan.

    “The agreement was signed by top defence officials from Pakistan and Russia in Rawalpindi on Wednesday,” said a military source.

    Both countries were negotiating the deal for the past year, signalling a major thaw in relations between the two cold-war rivals.

    Read: Russia ready to sell four Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan: report

    Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif had also visited Russia in June, after which a draft contract for the delivery of four Mi-35M 'Hind E' combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia.

    General Raheel Sharif had spent about 15 hours at an arms expo near Moscow that featured Russia’s cutting edge weapons and military equipment. He inspected not only the weapon systems on display but also saw their live demonstrations.

    Late last year, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu arrived on a visit to Pakistan which was aimed at discussing bilateral defence cooperation with the Pakistani leadership.

    CEO of Russia's Rostec hi-tech corporation, Sergey Chemezov, had also last year said Russia had lifted its embargo on delivery of military hardware and armaments to Pakistan and negotiations were being held on delivering helicopters.

    Russia’s Foreign Ministry also said both sides have been negotiating the delivery of helicopters and that Pakistan currently has a number of Mi-17 helicopters delivered by the United States to assist in the fight against militancy.

    The Mi-35 helicopter is an exceedingly modernised version of the Mi-24 (Hind) combat helicopter with new onboard equipment and avionics. It also has a more powerful engine and a different tail rotor.

    Read more: Russian defence minister arrives in Pakistan to discuss defence cooperation

    Pakistan and Russia had signed a bilateral defence cooperation agreement aimed at strengthening military-to-military relations in November last year. The deal had to be followed by another ‘technical cooperation agreement’ to pave the way for sale of defence equipment to Pakistan.

    Besides helicopters, Pakistan also appears interested in other Russian hardware.

    Russia and Pakistan have lately been working on enhancing defence cooperation and are believed to have already covered a lot of ground. Exchange of visits by military commanders in recent years is an indication of progress achieved in this regard.

    India’s decision to enter into tighter embrace with the US had prompted Russia to rethink its defence relationship with Pakistan.
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:41 am

    I was reading this on Dawn.com

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1201473/pakistan-russia-sign-landmark-defence-deal

    I know that there are deals with Russia and Pakistan regarding a pipeline through the country.
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    par far

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    Post  par far Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:01 pm

    I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:11 pm

    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.
    Book.
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    Post  Book. Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:21 pm

    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.

    Pakstan go EU or US...

    I think better go Ru
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    Post  max steel Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:11 pm

    Now Pakistan wants Yak-130.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:19 pm

    That's great, because the Yak is a training aircraft and not one that could fly offensive missions against India.
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    Post  medo Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:13 am

    Pakistan and India will next year become full SCO members, which is military alliance, so it is somehow logical, that they buy Russian and Chinese equipment.
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:29 am

    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.

    well bro India might be powerless in these deals but if offensive weapons are sold then India unfortunately will exercise other options. India offers far far greater business to Russian Defense industry since decades and in future too. Such decades old trusting relationship Russia will spoil for few million hundred dollars i doubt
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    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:24 am

    India is not powerless in this situation... the Russians will certainly consult the Indians first... but in the cases where Russia offers systems to Pakistan it is generally systems India has already rejected.

    For instance the Mi-35 for Pakistan... India rejected the Mi-28N. India was not interested in a jet training aircraft from Russia so it would make sense for Russia to offer Yak-130s or even MiG-ATs to Pakistan...
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    Hachimoto

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    Post  Hachimoto Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:34 am

    That's non sense, so India can buy from any country and Russia can't sell to anyone without consulting India? forget China ? or did India just give up on racing with China Smile

    If Pakistan put the money on table the Russians would sell just like the US are doing. and as far as i know their is no direct issues between Pakistan and Russia.

    Russia is now looking to diversify their customers as the Rush-buy from India is willing to fade sooner or later.

    be ready for new category of customers like UAE/SA/Brazil/Morocco/Pakistan and China coming back to mother Russia

    Beside if Russia is going to make another mistake like with Iran in the past years customers will just let it go take the french as example.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:28 am

    Pinto wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.

    well bro India might be powerless in these deals but if offensive weapons are sold then India unfortunately will exercise other options. India offers far far greater business to Russian Defense industry since decades and in future too. Such decades old trusting relationship Russia will spoil for few million hundred dollars i doubt

    1.) Really, what's all the hub bub? Mi-35's won't change the strategic chessboard/calculus of South Asia, because primarily the main role of the Mi-24/35's systems are for 'tactical' operations for things such as COIN...and we're not even talking about '200' Mi-35's hear, we're only talking about '4' helicopters...a laughably small number, and the Indian military won't lose a minute of sleep at night for such logistical numbers.

    2.) In comparison the Indian military will be receiving some serious strategic game-changers within the next ten years, in significant numbers no less. India will be getting derivatives of both T-50 (via FGFA) as well as derivatives of the 'Yasen' attack subs, as well the ability to learn and produce the hardware at home. There's even been talk that India may even get a derivative of the Armata series of heavily armored universal systems....and those are strategic systems that could dominate 10's of thousands of sq. km's of of air/sea/ground territory.

    3.) India buys systems from NATO affiliated defense firms, the same defense firms that harp about the 'Russian threat' through their Public Relations and Lobbyist branches...they also advocate military build ups on Russia's border, including the politically sensitive ABM's...so why is it O.K. for India to help prop up the MIC's of Russia's enemies by the tune of 10's of billions of Dollars...but how come Russia is considered the bad guy for selling a measly '4' helicopters that will primarily be used to fight the Taliban in Northern Pakistan?
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:14 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.

    well bro India might be powerless in these deals but if offensive weapons are sold then India unfortunately will exercise other options. India offers far far greater business to Russian Defense industry since decades and in future too. Such decades old trusting relationship Russia will spoil for few million hundred dollars i doubt

    1.) Really, what's all the hub bub? Mi-35's won't change the strategic chessboard/calculus of South Asia, because primarily the main role of the Mi-24/35's systems are for 'tactical' operations for things such as COIN...and we're not even talking about '200' Mi-35's hear, we're only talking about '4' helicopters...a laughably small number, and the Indian military won't lose a minute of sleep at night for such logistical numbers.

    2.) In comparison the Indian military will be receiving some serious strategic game-changers within the next ten years, in significant numbers no less. India will be getting derivatives of both T-50 (via FGFA) as well as derivatives of the 'Yasen' attack subs, as well the ability to learn and produce the hardware at home. There's even been talk that India may even get a derivative of the Armata series of heavily armored universal systems....and those are strategic systems that could dominate 10's of thousands of sq. km's of of air/sea/ground territory.

    3.) India buys systems from NATO affiliated defense firms, the same defense firms that harp about the 'Russian threat' through their Public Relations and Lobbyist branches...they also advocate military build ups on Russia's border, including the politically sensitive ABM's...so why is it O.K. for India to help prop up the MIC's of Russia's enemies by the tune of 10's of billions of Dollars...but how come Russia is considered the bad guy for selling a measly '4' helicopters that will primarily be used to fight the Taliban in Northern Pakistan?

    Because Indians lobbyism in return towards russian MIC and leadership is a constant reappearing issue while bitching about lobbyism to not get into Arjun or similiar projects that haven't met any maturity to be even considered as product.

    If i was in the place of russia i would sell to pakistan and Iran what i want, Israel nor India is in position to dictate anything to Russia, not to mention that India already has fallen towards very disadvantagous lobbyism for Rafael or the suspicious Chinook and C-17 tenders in comperision with their counterparts losing despite being in a superior position in logistics, effeciency, performance and total costs.
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:51 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.

    well bro India might be powerless in these deals but if offensive weapons are sold then India unfortunately will exercise other options. India offers far far greater business to Russian Defense industry since decades and in future too. Such decades old trusting relationship Russia will spoil for few million hundred dollars i doubt

    1.) Really, what's all the hub bub? Mi-35's won't change the strategic chessboard/calculus of South Asia, because primarily the main role of the Mi-24/35's systems are for 'tactical' operations for things such as COIN...and we're not even talking about '200' Mi-35's hear, we're only talking about '4' helicopters...a laughably small number, and the Indian military won't lose a minute of sleep at night for such logistical numbers.

    2.) In comparison the Indian military will be receiving some serious strategic game-changers within the next ten years, in significant numbers no less. India will be getting derivatives of both T-50 (via FGFA) as well as derivatives of the 'Yasen' attack subs, as well the ability to learn and produce the hardware at home. There's even been talk that India may even get a derivative of the Armata series of heavily armored universal systems....and those are strategic systems that could dominate 10's of thousands of sq. km's of of air/sea/ground territory.

    3.) India buys systems from NATO affiliated defense firms, the same defense firms that harp about the 'Russian threat' through their Public Relations and Lobbyist branches...they also advocate military build ups on Russia's border, including the politically sensitive ABM's...so why is it O.K. for India to help prop up the MIC's of Russia's enemies by the tune of 10's of billions of Dollars...but how come Russia is considered the bad guy for selling a measly '4' helicopters that will primarily be used to fight the Taliban in Northern Pakistan?

    1. i have only commented about offensive options sale and not about Mi 35 or Yak 130 trainers so you took my comments in wrong perspective

    2. India will continue to source its critical offensive weapons from Russia, France and related radars or missiles from Israel but bulk of weaponry will come from Russia. Indians have not forgotten the help Russians gave them since past 5 decades. India in next 10 yrs will spend around 50$ from Russia alone and rest of th 30 b $ from other sources

    3. India buys from NATO some weapons which it needs to counter china as Russia also sells to china so its quiet a balancing act. If you see friendship and trust level then India was the first country to recognize Russia's action in Crimea and supported Russia fully despite Europeans and US concerns. India and Russia will continue to pursue there strategic partnership to higher level in future. Examples being SCO and BRICS bank just to undermine US $

    Now if Russia still wishes to sell offensive weapons to Pak then India is surely powerless but i do not believe Russia will do this and help and force India to change its polices. But this will never happen as India will never let go a trusting ally as Russia and so will Russia Smile
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    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:02 pm

    [quote="Werewolf"][quote="magnumcromagnon"][quote="Pinto"]
    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:[/b]

    Because Indians lobbyism in return towards russian MIC and leadership is a constant reappearing issue while bitching about lobbyism to not get into Arjun or similiar projects that haven't met any maturity to be even considered as product.

    If i was in the place of russia i would sell to pakistan and Iran what i want, Israel nor India is in position to dictate anything to Russia, not to mention that India already has fallen towards very disadvantagous lobbyism for Rafael or the suspicious Chinook and C-17 tenders in comperision with their counterparts losing despite being in a superior position in logistics, effeciency, performance and total costs.

    Indian Lobby is its always buying bulk of offensive and critical weapons from Russia and Russia alone. Our relationship is at higher level thats why despite Russia selling to China too there is no problem to India as Russia will always have calming effect on Indo China rivalry on border dispute. China reverse engineering your products and selling to other countries as your competitor, has India ever done this ? why you did not Object to china ?

    Russian Govt fortunately do not act as per your thinking and take Indian concerns in mind. India has no need and compulsion to dictate Russia because our relationship with Russia is very special based upon mutual understanding and affection

    India will always welcome Russia to sell all kind of weapons to Iran
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:04 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:[/b]

    Because Indians lobbyism in return towards russian MIC and leadership is a constant reappearing issue while bitching about lobbyism to not get into Arjun or similiar projects that haven't met any maturity to be even considered as product.

    If i was in the place of russia i would sell to pakistan and Iran what i want, Israel nor India is in position to dictate anything to Russia, not to mention that India already has fallen towards very disadvantagous lobbyism for Rafael or the suspicious Chinook and C-17 tenders in comperision with their counterparts losing despite being in a superior position in logistics, effeciency, performance and total costs.

    Indian Lobby is its always buying bulk of offensive and critical weapons from Russia and Russia alone. Our relationship is at higher level thats why despite Russia selling to China too there is no problem to India as  Russia will always have calming effect on Indo China rivalry on border dispute. China reverse engineering your products and selling to other countries as your competitor, has India ever done this ? why you did not Object to china ?

    Russian Govt fortunately do not act as per your thinking and take Indian concerns in mind. India has no need and compulsion to dictate Russia because our relationship with Russia is very special based upon mutual understanding and affection

    India will always welcome Russia to sell all kind of weapons to Iran

    Logistics is a very critical asset for any military, big or small, the bigger it is the better must be the logistics and buying C-17 and Chinook despite better option is certainly not appearing to me as a unbiased and unlobbied decision.

    Indian Lobby is its always buying bulk of offensive and critical weapons from Russia and Russia alone. Our relationship is at higher level thats why despite Russia selling to China too there is no problem to India as Russia will always have calming effect on Indo China rivalry on border dispute. China reverse engineering your products and selling to other countries as your competitor, has India ever done this ? why you did not Object to china ?

    Because china very activley and undoubtly has already shown to the entire world their political course and it is not in favor of USA but in favor of BRICS, while India attempts to sit between two chairs and always trying to adjust its butt cheeks to comfort itself on each chair.


    Last edited by Werewolf on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Pinto
    Pinto

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    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  Pinto Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:05 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:That's non sense, so India can buy from any country and Russia can't sell to anyone without consulting India? forget China ? or did India just give up on racing with China Smile

    If Pakistan put the money on table the Russians would sell just like the US are doing. and as far as i know their is no direct issues between Pakistan and Russia.

    Russia is now looking to diversify their customers as the Rush-buy from India is willing to fade sooner or later.

    be ready for new category of customers like UAE/SA/Brazil/Morocco/Pakistan and China coming back to mother Russia

    Beside if Russia is going to make another mistake like with Iran in the past years customers will just let it go take the french as example.

    Do you think Pak will put 50 b$ on table like India doing for next 10 yrs wil Russia ? then go ahead and sell to them

    Russian Govt do not think like you, you saying the weapons sale to India will fade off in future ? lol there is going to be major deals with Russia and FGFA alone India will put around 25 b $ and rest on subs, frigates, armata tanks and what not

    http://ria.ru/east_military/20150814/1183812197.html

    "Long-term program of military-technical cooperation for 2011-2020, along with more than 20 intergovernmental agreement is the basis for cooperation in this field. The portfolio of contracts - more than 35 billion of added dollars. More than anyone else," - said the diplomat.


    Last edited by Pinto on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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