Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10011
    Points : 10089
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:34 pm

    wilhelm wrote:
    ult wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:No dates given, but it looks like she is getting ready to deploy, from what is being said.

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3641012

    Can't get over how people call Admiral Kuznetsov "she". I know about english traditions, but it still cracks me up.

    Smile
    Point taken.
    Now that you mention it, do I recall correctly in Russia a naval vessel is regarded as a male, or "he", or is that somewhere else?

    In Slavic languages it depends on a name.  Kuznetsov, Varyag or Goshkov are considered male names and are refereed to as ''He''. On the other hand Moskva, Bora or Nanuchka are considered female names and refereed to as ''She''.

    If word ends with letter A it is most often female.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2255
    Points : 2239
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:33 pm

    ult wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:No dates given, but it looks like she is getting ready to deploy, from what is being said.

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3641012

    Can't get over how people call Admiral Kuznetsov "she". I know about english traditions, but it still cracks me up.

    It's old sailor lingo all ships are she's by defaults it has nothing to do with its namesake.
    KiloGolf
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2496
    Points : 2482
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:26 pm

    Russia's Only Aircraft Carrier Is Headed For Syria (But Suffers From One Big Flaw)

    The Kremlin’s sole aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is set to make its combat debut in the eastern Mediterranean in November according to Russian media.

    The 55,000-ton vessel was originally scheduled to depart for the Syrian coast in October, but the deployment has been pushed back. While the Russian government has not stated exactly why the Kuznetsov’s deployment is being delayed, one the of reasons is likely due to the lack of pilots qualified to takeoff and land from an aircraft carrier.

    Training


    Analysts specializing in Russian military affairs are united in their opinion that pilot training is the weak link for Russia’s naval aviation capabilities—more so than any technical issues with the ship or aircraft. Unlike the Indian version of the Mikoyan MiG-29K, which has had technical issues due to Ukrainian-built parts—particularly with its radar, the Russian Navy’s MiG-29KR does not seem to been impacted as severely.

    “The main problem for the MiG-29KR is now a lack of trained pilots for this type and not any technical problems,” said researcher Mikhail Barabanov, editor-in-chief of the Moscow Defense Brief, which is published by the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) in Russia.

    But the lack of trained pilots might extend beyond just the MiG-29KR to the rest of Kuznetsov’s air wing. Kuznetsov’s air wing is expected to comprise of 10 Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D air superiority fighters and four MiG-29KR multirole fighters when it deploys in November, however is not clear that there are enough qualified aviators to operate those aircraft from a carrier flight deck. “How come nobody ever asks how many carrier-qualified pilots Russia actually has?” asked Mike Kofman, a research scientist specializing in Russian military affairs at the federally funded Center for Naval Analyses. “Planes need pilots and other support equipment. Are there 14 pilots aboard Kuznetsov certified for carrier takeoffs and landings?”

    The Su-33 Flanker-D


    Assuming that Kuznetsov does arrive in theatre off the coast of Syria with a full complement of pilots and aircraft, the ship will be able to provide some strike capability. The ten Su-33s onboard—which in previous years were optimized strictly for air superiority and fleet defense—have been fitted with the Gefest SVP-24 bombing sights, which the Russians claim increases the accuracy of gravity bombs to the level of precision-guided munitions (PGM). “This Gefest system worked very well on the Su-24Ms in Georgia in 2008 and in Syria in 2015-2016, why should it not work now?” Barabanov said.

    Western sources are skeptical about how well the SVP-24 actually works. The U.S. Air Force’s experience during Operation Desert Storm in 1991 showed that even with continuously computed impact point (CCIP) and continuously computed release point (CCPR) bombing modes, accuracy suffered above 10,000ft. The Pentagon’s Gulf War Airpower Survey notes that manual bombing without precision-guided weapons works best at altitudes below 10,000ft above ground level. But while accuracy is increased when flying below 10,000ft, aircraft operating at those altitudes are vulnerable to ground fire from guns—even small arms—and man-portable surface-to-air missiles. Above that—even at altitudes between 10,000ft and 15,000ft—accuracy suffers greatly even as survivability is greatly increased, as the Pentagon discovered. “Gefest has upgraded a good number of Russian aircraft,” Kofman said. “It makes unguided bombs more accurate, but it in no way approaches PGM quality.”

    The MiG-29KR

    Kuznetsov will also carry a quartet of MiG-29KR fighters (with a total fleet of roughly 14 operational aircraft in the Russian arsenal) that are capable of carrying PGMs and air-to-surface guided missiles. According to state-run media outlet Izvestia, the jets will be able to drop KAB-500 precision-guided bombs and carry the X-35 anti-ship missile—though the aircraft is also capable of carrying Kh-31P anti-radiation missiles, according to its manufacturer. “But there is no assurance that pilot training with these weapons are completed,” Barabanov said.

    While the Russians might hope to use PGMs such as the KAB-500 and X-35 over Syria, more realistically, Kuznetsov’s MiG-29KRs will likely use a mix of guided and unguided weapons. “I would venture that the actual armament will include a mix of guided and unguided munitions,” said Dmitry Gorenburg, a senior research scientist specializing in Russian military affairs at Center for Naval Analyses.

    Nonetheless, the new Fulcrum variant was supposed to be replacing the Flanker-D onboard Kuznetsov due to its multirole capabilities. “The main driver of the switch is that the MiG is better for airstrikes than the Su-33, which is primarily suited for aerial combat—a largely unnecessary mission since the end of the Cold War,” Gorenburg said.

    The MiG-29KR has some other advantages over the Su-33. The MiG-29KR is smaller and easier to handle on Kuznetsov’s flight deck than the Flanker, but one of the primary reasons for the transition to the Fulcrum is the need to sustain the Russian industrial base. “It’s also good business for MiG,” Kofman said. “They need to build something and continue to try to push the carrier aviation market. Sukhoi has plenty of orders already.”

    However, while the Russians seemed to be planning for a transition from the Su-33 to the MiG-29KR, Moscow seems to have decided to keep both jets in service. “Apparently, both types will exist in parallel,” Barabanov said. “The MiG-29KRs are not re-equipping the 279th Regiment, instead the new 100th Regiment was formed for them.”


    What can Kuznetsov Accomplish?

    Even when the Kuznetsov eventually arrives off the Syrian coast, there are questions about just how effective the aging Soviet-built carrier will be. While the ship carries fixed-wing fighters, the carrier is hampered because it uses a ski-jump to launch aircraft rather than catapults. Jets such as the Flanker and the Fulcrum can’t take off with a full-load as a result. “There’s a very significant drop off in combat load. But it’s hard to compare it to something else.” Kofman said.

    However, one U.S. Navy source suggested that while combat loads drop off steeply, the drop is less severe on the Flanker and the Fulcrum than it would be on the Boeing F/A-18 series because of the Russian jets’ thrust-to-weight ratio and aerodynamic performance. Nonetheless, the drop in combat load out is likely to be severe. Nor is Moscow keen on sharing that secret. “In theory, there are no formal restrictions on the load of the Su-33 at start of the ramp,” Barabanov said. “As a matter of fact—I think that a big secret, and probably depends on the experience of the pilot.”

    Moreover, there are questions about just how much combat experience the Russians will gain from Kuznetsov's deployment. “I wouldn't call it combat. It will be experience in carrying out airstrikes in uncontested skies,” Gorenburg said. “Potentially, very different from combat with a peer that will have its own aircraft and air defenses. But yes, it will be like what U.S. carrier aviation has been mostly used for in the last 25 years.”

    Future of Russian Naval Aviation

    After its Syria deployment, Kuznetsov will enter into dry-dock for refurbishing—but exactly how extensive the refit will be is debatable. Barabanov said that the ship will not likely be extensively upgraded. But Kofman and Gorenburg suggest the modifications will be more extensive.

    “It's going in early 2017 and will be out until 2020,” Kofman said. “In terms of modernization, I suspect engines and propulsion systems, flight deck, everything involved in aircraft operations on the deck.  It needs a lot of work, people were hoping the last overhaul would include modernization packages, but it did not—just an engine tune up.”

    Gorenburg said that the ship will likely be overhauled, but it's not clear if Kuznetsov’s troublesome engines will be fixed. “It will be sent for a pretty thorough modernization after this deployment,” Gorenburg said. “Probably mid-2017. Facilities are available at Sevmash, where they did the Vikramaditya modernization. I'm unclear whether this will include the ship's notoriously unreliable propulsion systems. The flight deck will definitely be modernized.”

    As for a future carrier to replace Kuznetsov—given Russia’s economic condition, the prospects for a new replacement flattop is remote. Kuznetsov will likely soldier on for years to come.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-only-aircraft-carrier-headed-syria-suffers-one-big-17756
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27463
    Points : 27995
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:15 pm

    Why do they think there will be a shortage of carrier trained pilots?

    Who do they think trained the Indian pilots to operate on the ex Gorshkov?

    The Russians built a new carrier training area when denied access to the training centre in the Crimea.

    Now they have access to the training centre in the Crimea, the new training centre in Russia and the carrier itself... so there are plenty of training options for them.

    Considering they are deploying the carrier to Syria they likely would have made sure they had some pilots trained to operate from the carrier they are sending.

    Geeze the American experts are dumb.

    they tried computer aided bombing and failed so anything the Russians have developed cannot possibly work...

    And claims russian aircraft cannot operate at full payload... with accurate bombing capability how often would they need a full bomb load?

    How often did F-16s operate over Iraq with 7 ton payloads of bombs?

    This will be excellent operational experience for the Russian Navy and will be valuable in testing new systems and new weapons and new techniques and strategies.
    KiloGolf
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2496
    Points : 2482
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:Why do they think there will be a shortage of carrier trained pilots?

    Who do they think trained the Indian pilots to operate on the ex Gorshkov?

    The Russians built a new carrier training area when denied access to the training centre in the Crimea.

    Now they have access to the training centre in the Crimea, the new training centre in Russia and the carrier itself... so there are plenty of training options for them.

    Considering they are deploying the carrier to Syria they likely would have made sure they had some pilots trained to operate from the carrier they are sending.

    Geeze the American experts are dumb.

    they tried computer aided bombing and failed so anything the Russians have developed cannot possibly work...

    And claims russian aircraft cannot operate at full payload... with accurate bombing capability how often would they need a full bomb load?

    How often did F-16s operate over Iraq with 7 ton payloads of bombs?

    This will be excellent operational experience for the Russian Navy and will be valuable in testing new systems and new weapons and new techniques and strategies.

    Well the usual dozen of barely armed, combat aircraft deployed on the Kuz, for over 3 decades, is testament to a very well established Russian problem. They basically, as the web lingo goes, "cannot into carrier ops". We shall see if this changes in a few weeks. I doubt it. If they deploy a few planes and present everything as a "testing/training mission" it will be that the article is right.

    I look forward in being positively surprised.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10011
    Points : 10089
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:31 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:....

    Well the usual dozen of barely armed, combat aircraft deployed on the Kuz, for over 3 decades, is testament to a very well established Russian problem. They basically, as the web lingo goes, "cannot into carrier ops". We shall see if this changes in a few weeks. I doubt it. If they deploy a few planes and present everything as a "testing/training mission" it will be that the article is right.

    I look forward in being positively surprised.


    Well the thing is that this most likely is neither real combat nor testing/training mission. Remember, Russia is supposed to start building helicopter carriers soon and aircraft carriers in decade or so. And half the aircraft on Kuznetsov are actually Ka-52 helicopters.

    So this is most likely final data gathering mission before they finalise designs for new vessels.
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1883
    Points : 2030
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:09 pm

    For the Mediterranean deployment, the Kuznetsov does not need to carry more than a dozen fighters and a few helicopters.
    Dozens of planes are not needed. Even the US megacarriers don't carry a full load of planes most of the time.

    For striking terrorists in Syria, there are enough planes in Hmeyim (if absolutely necessary, additional strikes can be performed from Russia itself or Hamadan in Iran).
    I see the possible reason(s) to deploy the Kuzya in the area as follows:

    1- Show of force
    2- Testing crews, weapons, procedures etc.
    3- Striking Libya

    The last one can be a surprise on the diplomatic front.

    KiloGolf
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2496
    Points : 2482
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:25 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:For the Mediterranean deployment, the Kuznetsov does not need to carry more than a dozen fighters and a few helicopters.
    Dozens of planes are not needed. Even the US megacarriers don't carry a full load of planes most of the time.

    For striking terrorists in Syria, there are enough planes in Hmeyim (if absolutely necessary, additional strikes can be performed from Russia itself or Hamadan in Iran).
    I see the possible reason(s) to deploy the Kuzya in the area as follows:

    1- Show of force
    2- Testing crews, weapons, procedures etc.
    3- Striking Libya

    The last one can be a surprise on the diplomatic front.


    So they need to sail something near a quarter of the globe with a 55,000 ton aircraft carrier (which qualifies as very large), just to carry a mere dozen of fixed-wing fast jets. Show the flag and all that jazz (if one can see it among the smog). Nope, no sense there. The French just a few months ago managed to have a good two dozen of strike fighters, of which 18 Rafales and that with a 10,000 ton lighter carrier. They hit ISIS pretty hard and everyone took notes, only a week after Paris attacks.

    That's how effective carrier ops work (see older MN photo below).

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 CVN_charlesdegaulle_French_Navy

    For me the Kuz deployment and its continuous delay spells trouble for the Russians. They have few capable aircraft, few pilots and a severely troubled, old CV to begin with. It's a big heavy ship (i.e. lots of people manning it) and yet it always carries an insignificant air wing. It takes months to deploy it and even those dates end up getting changed in the last moment.
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1883
    Points : 2030
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:00 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:For the Mediterranean deployment.....


    So they need to sail something near a quarter of the globe with a 55,000 ton aircraft carrier (which qualifies as very large), just to carry a mere dozen of fixed-wing fast jets. Show the flag and all that jazz (if one can see it among the smog). Nope, no sense there.

    How about the even larger US carriers sailing across the oceans without even making a single strike in most cases. That should make sense to you.

    The French just a few months ago managed to have a good two dozen of strike fighters, of which 18 Rafales and that with a 10,000 ton lighter carrier.
    From the very picture you posted: At least half the air fleet is on deck because the hangars can accommodate only so much.
    The Kuzya can carry just as many as the De-Gaulle. The extra 10,000 weight is for more elaborate air defenses and the GRANIT anti-ship missiles (De-Daulle does not have those extras).

    They hit ISIS pretty hard and everyone took notes, only a week after Paris attacks.
    Yeah, yeah, so they say. But of course, the Russian strikes will be ineffective ...even before they happen. They are doomed to fail, they have nothing but trouble, they are insignificant bla, bla, bla.

    For me the Kuz deployment and its continuous delay spells trouble for the Russians. They have few capable aircraft, few pilots and a severely troubled, old CV to begin with.
    And half of the US carriers are even older. So what?
    But you seem to have already decided that this deployment is only going trouble. You must be knowing better than the defense minister. Maybe you should call Shoigu and advise him to immediately stop this doomed deployment.

    It's a big heavy ship (i.e. lots of people manning it) and yet it always carries an insignificant air wing. It takes months to deploy it and even those dates end up getting changed in the last moment.
    It is 10,000T heavier than the Charles De-Gaulle with marginally larger crew and a similar number of aircraft plus anti-ship missiles.
    As I said in my previous post, it does not need to carry dozens of aircraft since Hmeyim air base is right there. The French did not have that luxury, they had to have as many aircraft possible on the De-Gaulle.
    KiloGolf
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2496
    Points : 2482
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:15 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:For the Mediterranean deployment.....


    So they need to sail something near a quarter of the globe with a 55,000 ton aircraft carrier (which qualifies as very large), just to carry a mere dozen of fixed-wing fast jets. Show the flag and all that jazz (if one can see it among the smog). Nope, no sense there.

    How about the even larger US carriers sailing across the oceans without even making a single strike in most cases. That should make sense to you.

    The French just a few months ago managed to have a good two dozen of strike fighters, of which 18 Rafales and that with a 10,000 ton lighter carrier.
    From the very picture you posted: At least half the air fleet is on deck because the hangars can accommodate only so much.
    The Kuzya can carry just as many as the De-Gaulle. The extra 10,000 weight is for more elaborate air defenses and the GRANIT anti-ship missiles (De-Daulle does not have those extras).

    They hit ISIS pretty hard and everyone took notes, only a week after Paris attacks.
    Yeah, yeah, so they say. But of course, the Russian strikes will be ineffective ...even before they happen. They are doomed to fail, they have nothing but trouble, they are insignificant bla, bla, bla.

    For me the Kuz deployment and its continuous delay spells trouble for the Russians. They have few capable aircraft, few pilots and a severely troubled, old CV to begin with.
    And half of the US carriers are even older. So what?
    But you seem to have already decided that this deployment is only going trouble. You must be knowing better than the defense minister. Maybe you should call Shoigu and advise him to immediately stop this doomed deployment.

    It's a big heavy ship (i.e. lots of people manning it) and yet it always carries an insignificant air wing. It takes months to deploy it and even those dates end up getting changed in the last moment.
    It is 10,000T heavier than the Charles De-Gaulle with marginally larger crew and a similar number of aircraft plus anti-ship missiles.
    As I said in my previous post, it does not need to carry dozens of aircraft since Hmeyim air base is right there. The French did not have that luxury, they had to have as many aircraft possible on the De-Gaulle.

    There's a massive difference in "can", "don't need to" and going ahead, showing how it's done. The French did it and they're not global examples of efficiency. I'm not debating on theoretical capabilities and specs, but operationally utilizing the said asset in a way that makes practical sense from CV ops point of view.

    So far it does not. And it is not a matter of the user's choice but rather their inability of doing any better on that department. If cruising those 55,000 tons is to simply move around some Tors and a few anti-ship cruise missiles, then there's something wrong with such a doctrine. On that bit I am sure RuN is not that naive, they just try to catch up in the carrier game. But the platform and 90s disasters still haunt them.

    Those "elaborate air defenses" and that dozen of Granits are not the reason for the extra 10k tons. It's a bigger ship, it's got a comfier deck and it is so far cruising with a tiny air wing, smaller then a lighter/smaller carrier out there. Simple.

    PS. the French had/have HAFB Souda (as ferry station) and RAF Akrotiri or THK Incirlik right next to Syria if they wanted, that's not the point.
    OminousSpudd
    OminousSpudd

    Posts : 902
    Points : 909
    Join date : 2015-01-03
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:23 am

    The circle of life continues.
    >Russia has no force projection and couldn't possibly turn up in Syria
    >Russia turns up in Syria
    >Russia doesn't have the capability or the budget to win against ISIS in Syria
    >Russia makes more progress against ISIS in four weeks then the Coalition forces had for the entire campaign
    >Su-35S are grounded due to bug testing, will never be used operationally in Syrian theater
    >Su-35S are used operationally in Syria.
    >Russia's economy is busted, they'll be down the drain in a year (circa 2014)
    >Nearing end of 2016, Russia is still here.
    >Russian Army doctrine is archaic and will not survive against NATO battalion level doctrine
    >UAF goes 404


    Future popular theories soon to be mercilessly butchered.

    >US has undetectable stealth aircraft
    >Russian IADS are over rated
    >(courtesy of KiloGolf) Russia can not into carrier ops

    I don't like those odds Kilo.  Laughing

    Prepare to be "pleasantly" surprised.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10011
    Points : 10089
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:00 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:...............

    Future popular theories soon to be mercilessly butchered.

    >US has undetectable stealth aircraft

    >Russian IADS are over rated
    >(courtesy of KiloGolf) Russia can not into carrier ops

    I don't like those odds Kilo.  Laughing

    Prepare to be "pleasantly" surprised.

    Dude..... Aircraft Museum, Belgrade:
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 F-117_canopy


    Radar that detected it was from the freakin'  60's  Cool

    People are selling chunks on e-bay...  lol1
    OminousSpudd
    OminousSpudd

    Posts : 902
    Points : 909
    Join date : 2015-01-03
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:12 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:...............

    Future popular theories soon to be mercilessly butchered.

    >US has undetectable stealth aircraft

    >Russian IADS are over rated
    >(courtesy of KiloGolf) Russia can not into carrier ops

    I don't like those odds Kilo.  Laughing

    Prepare to be "pleasantly" surprised.

    Dude..... Aircraft Museum, Belgrade:
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 F-117_canopy


    Radar that detected it was from the freakin'  60's  Cool

    People are selling chunks on e-bay...  lol1

    But muh bomb bay doors, muh flight paths, muh Serbian observers at the end of muh runway. IT IS STEALTH, THAT'S WHY WE RETIRED IT SO QUICKLY, JUST SHUT UP OKAY?
    KiloGolf
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2496
    Points : 2482
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:45 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    >(courtesy of KiloGolf) Russia can not into carrier ops

    I don't like those odds Kilo.  Laughing

    It could be somewhere between your statement and their recent CSAR helo performance. So lets not be so hasty. At the moment RuN's carrier ops track record with modern, fixed wing fighters (especially the strike component) is bad, which is only stating a fact.

    If the new reality "mercilessly butchers" this fact, then Russia will have truly achieved something unique. But for that to happen a simple demonstration of a mere 4 MiG-29K or a dozen or so Gefest-kitted Flankers won't be enough, neither will be any Ka-52K deployment on the Kuz. Much more is needed, in terms of numbers and quality.

    PapaDragon wrote:Radar that detected it was from the freakin'  60's  Cool

    A 60s radar detecting a 70s attempt to "stealth" (a plane introduced in the early 80s).
    Fair enough, but hardly groundbreaking to those who look beyond the hype that is.

    I sometimes sense similar hype on Russian systems/platforms being preserved on this forum.

    OminousSpudd wrote:IT IS STEALTH, THAT'S WHY WE RETIRED IT SO QUICKLY, JUST SHUT UP OKAY?

    A quarter of a century hardly qualifies as early.
    And with over 180 F-22s coming online, with SDB and JDAM capability, F-117 started becoming a liability for them.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2160
    Points : 2150
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:15 am

    The French just a few months ago managed to have a good two dozen of strike fighters, of which 18 Rafales and that with a 10,000 ton lighter carrier. They hit ISIS pretty hard and everyone took notes, only a week after Paris attacks.
    If I recall they only actually claimed 20something strikes so about 1 per plane, hardly exactly earth-shattering efficiency Neutral

    55,000ton
    Funny, most sources call it 65,000 dunno
    I guess 65,000 when trying to make it look like a threat -> need for bigger Western military budgets, 55,000 when trying to downplay & discourage its chances of being effective when bombing West supported 'moderate' Salafist Al Qaeda friendly Jihadis Suspect

    Will be interesting to see what they actually bring for an air-wing.
    On a mission to do ground strike it should not have its normal large ASW helicopter contingent for defending SSBNs.
    Not sure I buy 10* Su-33, 4* Mig-29k, I'd expect a bunch more Migs (supposedly all 20 + 4*KUB were delivered by Feb). Also is ignoring Ka-52k which I expect will .

    With Su-33s being upgraded for ground attack prior to deployment, Mig-29k & Ka-52k just entering service I do wonder about the pilot training factor.
    Existing Su-33 pilots will presumably have been trained on AA missions only, maybe been retraining on land planes with the SVP-24 recently?
    New aircraft may not be properly worked up yet.
    Sure Russia has the two land training facilities but there is probably a fair bit of a difference between training on a land facility vs operational flights on moving carrier & I think a big bit of the point is with only one carrier there is limited opportunity to do training ops on the real carrier.


    My bet though is Russia will pull off a pretty impressive number of strikes with relatively few planes & will learn a bunch that will be relevant to refit/new carriers.
    OminousSpudd
    OminousSpudd

    Posts : 902
    Points : 909
    Join date : 2015-01-03
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:45 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:
    >(courtesy of KiloGolf) Russia can not into carrier ops

    I don't like those odds Kilo.  Laughing

    It could be somewhere between your statement and their recent CSAR helo performance. So lets not be so hasty. At the moment RuN's carrier ops track record with modern, fixed wing fighters (especially the strike component) is bad, which is only stating a fact.

    If the new reality "mercilessly butchers" this fact, then Russia will have truly achieved something unique. But for that to happen a simple demonstration of a mere 4 MiG-29K or a dozen or so Gefest-kitted Flankers won't be enough, neither will be any Ka-52K deployment on the Kuz. Much more is needed, in terms of numbers and quality.

    PapaDragon wrote:Radar that detected it was from the freakin'  60's  Cool

    A 60s radar detecting a 70s attempt to "stealth" (a plane introduced in the early 80s).
    Fair enough, but hardly groundbreaking to those who look beyond the hype that is.

    I sometimes sense similar hype on Russian systems/platforms being preserved on this forum.

    OminousSpudd wrote:IT IS STEALTH, THAT'S WHY WE RETIRED IT SO QUICKLY, JUST SHUT UP OKAY?

    A quarter of a century hardly qualifies as early.
    And with over 180 F-22s coming online, with SDB and JDAM capability, F-117 started becoming a liability for them.

    What was wrong with their recent CSAR (assuming it was White 11 that you're talking about)? Given the strenuous circumstances I did not see anything wrong with it.  scratch
    Kuz's service record is bad because of its lack of a service record. The ship itself has gone through a lot of nonsense, but we genuinely have little idea about full-scale deck operations, I will reserve my opinion until it happens, rather than passing it off as bad before it has a chance to prove itself. Besides, the ship really wasn't designed for a strike wing, hence the non-CATO.

    F-117s that as far as I am aware, did not participate with the same level of confidence after 1999. 25 - 8 = 17 years operational service with the rest more or less PR duty. As it stands 25 years in itself is still on the short side. I was referring to its "sudden death" after Yugoslavia.

    KiloGolf wrote:A 60s radar detecting a 70s attempt to "stealth" (a plane introduced in the early 80s).
    The same logic applies to the S-125.

    KiloGolf wrote: sometimes sense similar hype on Russian systems/platforms being preserved on this forum.
    It has come across that you are on some sort of crusade.  Smile
    KiloGolf
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2496
    Points : 2482
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:59 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote: sometimes sense similar hype on Russian systems/platforms being preserved on this forum.
    It has come across that you are on some sort of crusade.  Smile

    Having someone viewing things differently is not a crusade.
    Diverse opinions should be welcome, otherwise we might as well move to Best Korea. pirat
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27463
    Points : 27995
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:10 am

    Well the usual dozen of barely armed, combat aircraft deployed on the Kuz, for over 3 decades, is testament to a very well established Russian problem.

    Well established Russian problem of not being murdering bastards?

    They have not sent carriers around the world murdering people... therefore they can't send a carrier now to solve the problem of Syria?

    Your line of thought is corrupt.

    It is the normal western criticism... Russia does not use carriers the way we use carriers therefore Russia fails at being us.

    Russia does not need a carrier to perform in Syria... a Cruise missile launched from 2,500km away from the actual target that explodes with the force of a 500kg bomb already does the job.

    But then they have already done so with Corvettes and Submarines and aircraft... time to test Navy assets?

    Sending a billion dollar carrier with a billion dollars worth of aircraft and spending tens of millions of dollars on fuel to do the job a single cruise missile can perform is just a quintessentially American government way of doing things and of thinking.

    If they deploy a few planes and present everything as a "testing/training mission" it will be that the article is right.

    You mean the way they were right about 11/9? Oops... no... the way they were right about Iraqi WMDs... Oops no, the way they were sure Assad would fall because there was no way Russia could send a small force to Syria and effectively turn the whole war around... a war their mighty war machine had failed to effect much at all... ISIS grew exponentially when the US was attacking it after all.

    I doubt they would be right about what colour the sky is.... because their american sunglasses distort everything.

    You are trying to determine what this mission is from a stupid american article?

    The Kuznetsov is not an American carrier. Its job has never been to invade foreign countries or to support genocide or terrorists.

    Its original goal was to provide air cover for Soviet and then Russian groups of ships... whether in the open ocean hunting for enemy subs or near land.

    They have some new aircraft with some new capabilities... but what you are suggesting is that they have new aircraft but no trained pilots and they are going to go to Syria just to get a sun tan.

    Hopefully they are going to help the Syrian people by killing some of the terrorists and foreigners that are trying to take over said country.

    They are not going to transfer the Su-34s to deck operations... they will likely use a few MiG-29Ks with some new weapons to test them in realistic conditions and kill some people who burn women alive and cut the heads off little boys for fun.

    The French just a few months ago managed to have a good two dozen of strike fighters, of which 18 Rafales and that with a 10,000 ton lighter carrier. They hit ISIS pretty hard and everyone took notes, only a week after Paris attacks.

    Very American of them actually... they did nothing about ISIS until it effected them and then they over reacted for a short period and then went back to doing bugger all.

    For me the Kuz deployment and its continuous delay spells trouble for the Russians. They have few capable aircraft, few pilots and a severely troubled, old CV to begin with. It's a big heavy ship (i.e. lots of people manning it) and yet it always carries an insignificant air wing. It takes months to deploy it and even those dates end up getting changed in the last moment.

    Of course... they should stop spending money on carriers because they don't intend to use them the way the west uses them... because there is only the way the west does things and the wrong way... right?

    I'm not debating on theoretical capabilities and specs, but operationally utilizing the said asset in a way that makes practical sense from CV ops point of view.

    You don't even know what their objectives even are and you are judging them on you own narrow view?

    Might come as a shock but they have just introduced into service the MiG-29K and perhaps they might just want to test it on people who behead children and burn young women alive for not being their concubines.

    They are planning to build a few types of carriers in the near future... helicopter and fixed wing designs... perhaps they want a bit of experience in deploying aircraft and helicopters... but no... lets criticise them for not taking Nimitz class carriers and US pilots so they can murder some more government forces and help the terrorists some more.

    On that bit I am sure RuN is not that naive, they just try to catch up in the carrier game. But the platform and 90s disasters still haunt them.

    Yeah... cause spending 10 billion US dollars on a carrier that has capabilities the Russian Navy already has with corvettes armed with cruise missiles is pure genius...

    Those "elaborate air defenses" and that dozen of Granits are not the reason for the extra 10k tons. It's a bigger ship, it's got a comfier deck and it is so far cruising with a tiny air wing, smaller then a lighter/smaller carrier out there. Simple.

    It is a French ship... it has no defensive systems... just a big stick with a huge white flag in case they are attacked.

    The K is an air defence carrier with anti carrier missiles designed to attack other carriers while shooting down any enemy air power that tries to stop them... it was never intended as a strike carrier so it does not need 50 aircraft for a strike package, an ESW support package and an air superiority flight package.


    At the moment RuN's carrier ops track record with modern, fixed wing fighters (especially the strike component) is bad, which is only stating a fact.

    No... actually it is being a bit of a wanker.

    The Russian Navy has no track record of strike missions with carrier aircraft.

    Claiming it is bad is just being a prick.

    If the new reality "mercilessly butchers" this fact, then Russia will have truly achieved something unique.

    Merciless Butchers... don't keep bringing the American military into this.

    But for that to happen a simple demonstration of a mere 4 MiG-29K or a dozen or so Gefest-kitted Flankers won't be enough, neither will be any Ka-52K deployment on the Kuz. Much more is needed, in terms of numbers and quality.

    Of course... 1,000 PAK FAs need to get airborne from the K and finish the war in less than two hours... and we need video or it never happened.

    And with over 180 F-22s coming online, with SDB and JDAM capability, F-117 started becoming a liability for them.

    Or perhaps they realised that a subsonic weapon that delivered the equivalent of a small bomb... could be billions of dollars of stealth aircraft that ran the risk of getting shot down by a MiG-21 with guns, or it could be half a million dollars worth of cruise missile...

    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2160
    Points : 2150
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:15 am

    It is a French ship... it has no defensive systems... just a big stick with a huge white flag in case they are attacked.
    Well actually its got 32* Aster15 + 12* Mistral which makes pretty well defended.
    I'm not a fan of the 'French surrender' thing, its tacky & historically wrong.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27463
    Points : 27995
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:12 am

    Well actually its got 32* Aster15 + 12* Mistral which makes pretty well defended.

    Meh... 32 x 30km range SAMS and 12 MANPADS...

    Kuznetsov has 24 Kinzhal launchers with 192 missiles and 8 Kashtan-M systems with 256 missiles and 16 30mm gatling guns... and a further 6 individual gatling guns.

    That is 448 missiles and 22 x 30mm gatling guns.

    I'm not a fan of the 'French surrender' thing, its tacky & historically wrong.

    Not a huge fan of such stereotypes myself, but information is coming from a Western article from the nationalinterest website, why let facts get in the way of a point of view?

    It mentions that the Russians have tested a bombing system upgrade and that they are applying it to their Su-33s but they cannot accept that it might actually work... they point out the Russians don't have any money to spend on a new carrier any time soon but apparently they have money to spend on a system to improve bombing accuracy with dumb bombs that does not actually work... Rolling Eyes

    We will mention two Russian experts with differing opinions and ignore the one that is positive about the Russian military... mention one that is more negative but give the final say to some American wanker spouting BS from the kool aide stand... a waste of my time reading that crap really.

    Of course the amusing thing is that as pointed out the Russian airforce managed to make a serious difference with a few dozen planes deployed to the area on land and now they are criticising the Russian Navy because they think they are sending only 14 aircraft on a carrier to the region to solve the whole problem of Syria.

    It could not possibly be a training and testing opportunity... perhaps battle management equipment was also installed on the K that they might want to test and also the MiG-29KR and Ka-52 aircraft they want to test in addition to Su-33s with their upgrades, together with the rest of the small group of ships operating in the area... no... it is a Nimitz style strike or it is a failure... Rolling Eyes
    avatar
    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 113
    Points : 105
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Well actually its got 32* Aster15 + 12* Mistral which makes pretty well defended.

    Meh... 32 x 30km range SAMS and 12 MANPADS...

    Kuznetsov has 24 Kinzhal launchers with 192 missiles and 8 Kashtan-M systems with 256 missiles and 16 30mm gatling guns... and a further 6 individual gatling guns.

    That is 448 missiles and 22 x 30mm gatling guns.

    I'm not a fan of the 'French surrender' thing, its tacky & historically wrong.

    Not a huge fan of such stereotypes myself, but information is coming from a Western article from the nationalinterest website, why let facts get in the way of a point of view?

    It mentions that the Russians have tested a bombing system upgrade and that they are applying it to their Su-33s but they cannot accept that it might actually work... they point out the Russians don't have any money to spend on a new carrier any time soon but apparently they have money to spend on a system to improve bombing accuracy with dumb bombs that does not actually work... Rolling Eyes

    We will mention two Russian experts with differing opinions and ignore the one that is positive about the Russian military... mention one that is more negative but give the final say to some American wanker spouting BS from the kool aide stand... a waste of my time reading that crap really.

    Of course the amusing thing is that as pointed out the Russian airforce managed to make a serious difference with a few dozen planes deployed to the area on land and now they are criticising the Russian Navy because they think they are sending only 14 aircraft on a carrier to the region to solve the whole problem of Syria.

    It could not possibly be a training and testing opportunity... perhaps battle management equipment was also installed on the K that they might want to test and also the MiG-29KR and Ka-52 aircraft they want to test in addition to Su-33s with their upgrades, together with the rest of the small group of ships operating in the area... no... it is a Nimitz style strike or it is a failure... Rolling Eyes


    What they saying is an active bombing system with unguided bombs works well up to 3 km height, above that the precision of it degrading .

    And actualy the manpads can shoot down an airplane that flying under 3km , so the system is effective only against enemy who doesn't has manpads.


    It is logical, considering that the normal, unguided air deffence guns are useless above 5-6 km.It is the inverse of the same reason why you need to use guided rockets to shoot down anything above 5-6km.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 10011
    Points : 10089
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:55 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:........

    What they saying is an active bombing system with unguided bombs works well up to 3 km height, above that the precision of it degrading .

    ............

    Of course it is degrading above certain altitude, that is why they use several bombs per strike. We all seen the videos, it is always more than one. Point is job gets done at fraction of the cost.



    And I am positive that role of Kuznetsov here is testing and data gathering. Whole thing was already supposed to undergo heavy upgrade but this was postponed for end of this year and it got just basic maintenance instead.

    It is clear that they feel that this is rare opportunity to finally use this ship in real war after decades of it sitting idle. They want to put some notches on the hull, give pilots real world experience, test new aircraft and electronics (Ka-52, Mig-29K and Hefest for Su-33, etc...) and gather data needed for final tune up of new ship designs before they start construction.

    If they wait years until proper upgrade is complete war will most likely be over and who knows when they might get next chance to use it. This is unique opportunity to do a lot of stuff in one go and they are taking it.

    Russian Military does not need this carrier deployment to complete it's objectives in Syrian war but Russian Navy need this war and this deployment to get a lot of important things done for which they might have to wait very long time if they miss this opportunity.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 4020
    Points : 4104
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  medo on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:20 pm

    This first combat operation of Kuznetsov carrier in Syria will give to the Russian NAVY the most valuable experiances after WW2. But there is one good question regarding air compain coordination with RuAF and SyAAF in Syria. Ka-52K and MiG-29KR/KUBR are new and have new data link comlexes to work in network with others in campaign, but this is a good question regarding Su-33. They are modernized with SVP-24 from Gefest, so they are equipped with satellite navigation, that it could work properly. But do they also modernize their data links to work in network with others, like with Su-30SM, Su-34 and Su-35 and share target data informations with them? Do they replace its old IRST with more modern IRST like those on Su-30 with TV and laser designator channels inside for ground attacks and modernize radar with ground attack modes? Such modernizations will make Su-33 useful plane over Syria, without them it will be useless as it will not be able to share target informations with others and without capabilities to find targets by itself.
    avatar
    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 113
    Points : 105
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:........

    What they saying is an active bombing system with unguided bombs works well up to 3 km height, above that the precision of it degrading .

    ............

    Of course it is degrading above certain altitude, that is why they use several bombs per strike. We all seen the videos, it is always more than one. Point is job gets done at fraction of the cost.



    Problem is if you need 4 bombs on 3 km, then you need 8 on 6 km and 16 pn 12 km.

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27463
    Points : 27995
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:06 am

    What they saying is an active bombing system with unguided bombs works well up to 3 km height, above that the precision of it degrading .

    So some article writer for National Interest website tells us that the Russians are morons and liars and when they say their system is effective and they are adding the system to their theatre bombers (Tu-22M3M), and their long range tactical strike bombers (Su-24 and Su-34) and now to their naval fighters (Su-33) that obviously they must be idiots and don't know as much as America does.

    America tried it and failed so it is not possible that the Russians might have gotten it right.

    BTW making cheap dumb bombs effective is unAmerican... there is no profit margin there... it makes more sense to fit expensive guidance packages to cheap dumb bombs like Paveway...

    And actualy the manpads can shoot down an airplane that flying under 3km , so the system is effective only against enemy who doesn't has manpads.

    Yeah... of course... those dumb Russians don't know what they are talking about and their claims of being able to bomb from safe altitudes with the accuracy of guided weapons must all be made up... because some American said so.

    It is logical, considering that the normal, unguided air deffence guns are useless above 5-6 km.It is the inverse of the same reason why you need to use guided rockets to shoot down anything above 5-6km.

    It is as logical to expect good information about Russian equipment on that site as it is to expect good information about the US from the leader of North Korea... and for much the same reasons... countries that think they are at war have no reason to tell the truth.

    Do they replace its old IRST with more modern IRST like those on Su-30 with TV and laser designator channels inside for ground attacks and modernize radar with ground attack modes? Such modernizations will make Su-33 useful plane over Syria, without them it will be useless as it will not be able to share target informations with others and without capabilities to find targets by itself.

    ???? So what you are saying is that an Su-33 is bloody useless and cannot find targets nor can it use a radio or data link to share information about targets other platforms have found....

    Don't you think it would be likely that if they gave it the ability to hit ground targets with dumb bombs, that they might also give it the capacity to find said targets or be passed target data while in flight?

    Problem is if you need 4 bombs on 3 km, then you need 8 on 6 km and 16 pn 12 km.

    And if that were true what if they need 2 bombs at 12,000m?

    If the bombers were dropping bombs from 3km then where are all the videos of Tu-22M3s releasing bombs from the ground perspective... surely such an attack would be easily visible... unless they were bombing from over 10km altitude and targets on the ground didn't even know they were there until the bombs exploded on the ground.

    Sponsored content

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1 - Page 8 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:18 am