Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+67
caveat emptor
Podlodka77
Krepost
Lennox
lancelot
marcellogo
ALAMO
The-thing-next-door
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
Arrow
LMFS
mnztr
jhelb
Rodion_Romanovic
william.boutros
Admin
dino00
marat
miroslav
walle83
Hole
Isos
Mindstorm
GunshipDemocracy
miketheterrible
verkhoturye51
Luq man
T-47
ult
AyalaBotto
hoom
OminousSpudd
Ned86
SeigSoloyvov
franco
calripson
KiloGolf
archangelski
JohninMK
Project Canada
chicken
Cucumber Khan
Big_Gazza
max steel
PapaDragon
Honesroc
KomissarBojanchev
Cyberspec
sepheronx
Werewolf
xeno
redgiacomo
Mike E
navyfield
Dima
GarryB
magnumcromagnon
AlfaT8
partizan
Viktor
zg18
George1
flamming_python
TheArmenian
runaway
medo
TR1
71 posters

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 9516
    Points : 9574
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 22, 2024 5:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:Russia has developed missile launchers based in shipping containers... which means any commercial truck can be used as a missile launching platform.

    In a country with hundreds of thousands of trucks, not to mention tens of thousands of trains with probably millions of cargo containers in yards in storage, or moving around the place, they already have plenty of launch options... but they also need patrol boats and their patrol boats can carry more missiles too.

    A river barge three shipping containers wide and ten shipping containers long can carry 30 x 4 missiles ready to fire... or they might be exercise bikes and bean bags in those shipping crates... the satellite wont be able to tell.

    Good luck trying to destroy every shipping crate in Russia.

    As tempting as those promotional videos of the Kalibr missiles from 15 years back were, all such schemes will amount to rather nasty violations of the Geneva Convention and there's 0 chance of Russia putting missiles into shipping containers or whatever

    Someone like the Houthis or Hezbollah, on the other hand..

    Rodion_Romanovic and Broski like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11590
    Points : 11558
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  Isos Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:39 pm

    We are not talking about them here. I don't see the point.

    Russia should build missile boats that have very low value in a real war as shown in Ukraine because they have civilian containers able to to launch missiles ? What's the logic ?

    And even if they are invisible, roads offer the possibility to either come closer or find the best launching position than a river. Those containers can go on a truck.
    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 3898
    Points : 3904
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:39 pm

    Isos wrote:We are not talking about them here. I don't see the point.

    Russia should build missile boats that have very low value in a real war as shown in Ukraine because they have civilian containers able to to launch missiles ? What's the logic ?

    And even if they are invisible, roads offer the possibility to either come closer or find the best launching position than a river. Those containers can go on a truck.

    You still need to be able to patrol ship routes and maintain a presence

    And these ships make it affordable to do so in spite of the threats that exist by virtue of the fact they are cheap and small vessels relative to huge destroyers

    It’s a miracle they can install UKSK and Pantsir or even Gibka on them

    But if you take a look at the shipping in the Black Sea you can understand why these ships do have a good purpose

    I guess adding missiles and air defense was seen as necessity instead of a luxury in these ships

    And in reality that’s what they are, a luxury that gives the VMF a better capability on what are essentially offshore patrol vessels

    We look at them as if they need to be star destroyers or else they suck

    But they really are just OPV ships with Kalibr and SHORADS lmao

    GarryB and lancelot like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11590
    Points : 11558
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  Isos Sat Jun 22, 2024 11:28 pm

    They are good for peace time. Once war starts they patrol nothing. Get real they are useless. In peace time they can patrol with even cheaper coast guad vessels.

    Their use in protecting the black sea is non existant. They are kept at port and even there they are not safe.

    If you want to protect shipping lines, you need big ships, same as in the past, same as in the future.
    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 3898
    Points : 3904
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 22, 2024 11:36 pm

    Isos wrote:They are good for peace time. Once war starts they patrol nothing. Get real they are useless. In peace time they can patrol with even cheaper coast guad vessels.

    Their use in protecting the black sea is non existant. They are kept at port and even there they are not safe.

    If you want to protect shipping lines, you need big ships, same as in the past, same as in the future.

    Yeah but check the shipping to Odessa and to Novorossiysk

    You can’t guard those routes with big ships

    Either way you need something small and slightly better armed than a coast guard ship

    There’s not really much else to do in a closed sea like Black Sea

    GarryB likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40448
    Points : 40948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 23, 2024 12:36 pm


    As tempting as those promotional videos of the Kalibr missiles from 15 years back were, all such schemes will amount to rather nasty violations of the Geneva Convention and there's 0 chance of Russia putting missiles into shipping containers or whatever

    Yeah, because all the military equipment going from HATO to Kiev is clearly marked as military equipment because the west never breaks international laws...

    Having a mechanism where the transport container also allows the launch of missiles and have that launch container based on a standard shipping crate to make transport and storage easier is just common sense.

    Russia should build missile boats that have very low value in a real war as shown in Ukraine because they have civilian containers able to to launch missiles ? What's the logic ?

    It is not really a missile boat, it is a multifunction patrol boat that has a missile launcher that can carry a wide range of different weapons in its universal launcher.

    And even if they are invisible, roads offer the possibility to either come closer or find the best launching position than a river. Those containers can go on a truck.

    Truck, train, boat/ship, even transport planes can move them around...

    You could have a large area with shipping crates being stored that is actually a missile site ready to attack Europe... a quarter can be long range subsonic stealthy cruise missiles and half can be hypersonic land attack missiles that go first and take out all the enemy air defences and aircraft bases and major radar sites, and the other quarter can be S-350 SAMs to protect the missile site and area nearby.

    They are good for peace time. Once war starts they patrol nothing

    The equivalent in the west would have a mounted 50 cal HMG or 20mm cannon that some poor bastard has to stand out in the weather to fire and some Stinger or Mistral MANPADS.

    This vessel has a 100mm gun, 30mm gatling guns, and a Gibka turret with all weather optics and missiles ready to fire.

    It will also have mounting points for three or four HMGs with probably thermal imager optics these days for use against airborne and sea surface drones and likely with new equipment and weapons for use against drones being developed as we speak.

    Their use in protecting the black sea is non existant. They are kept at port and even there they are not safe.

    If the Orcs want to waste Storm Shadow and Scalp super dooper stealthy cruise missiles on such targets then good for them... the risk reward ratio is poor.

    It is like Australia playing Afghanistan at the 20/20 cricket world cup... if Australia beats Afghanistan then no one cares because Australia is world cup champions, but if Afghanistan beats Australia... they got beaten by a third world country... how embarrassing... and they did beat them... hahahaha.

    If the enemy wants to waste limited attack strength and capacity on these patrol boats then they are dumber than they think.

    More often a patrol boat like this might come across drones on their way to other targets... in which case it can take down a few and warn that the rest are coming...

    If you want to protect shipping lines, you need big ships, same as in the past, same as in the future.

    So you say, but you seem to think these ships will operate on their own and are helpless.

    Wrong on both counts I would say.

    With such limited options to hide and manouver I would say you wouldn't want an aircraft carrier in the Black Sea.... it would be too tempting a target and the enemy would go all out to try to hit it.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40448
    Points : 40948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:10 pm

    I have watched this video and post it here because it is relevant I think as it includes the Gibka.



    The main reason I post it here is because I forgot it could fire not just Igla-S and Verba missiles but it can also fire Ataka and presumably also Khrisantema missiles which should be ideal for hitting sea surface drones and also ground targets and slow moving aerial targets with no or poor radar and IR signature... like small drones.

    The anti aircraft Ataka missile has a proximity fuse for very small targets.

    George1, zardof, Hole and Broski like this post

    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 781
    Points : 783
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  Krepost Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:10 am

    The STAVROPOL is on the Volga. Being taken to the Baltic for Sea trials.
    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 10-12210

    GarryB, franco, Big_Gazza, Hole and lancelot like this post

    PhSt
    PhSt


    Posts : 1440
    Points : 1446
    Join date : 2019-04-02
    Location : Canada

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  PhSt Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:40 pm

    PhSt
    PhSt


    Posts : 1440
    Points : 1446
    Join date : 2019-04-02
    Location : Canada

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  PhSt Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:41 pm



    The new project of the RTO "Sarsar" was developed on the basis of small missile ships of the project 21631 "Buyan-M"

    Russian fleet can get small missile ships of the new Project 21635 "Sarsar", developed by the shipbuilding corporation "Ak Bars" on the basis of the small missile ship of the "Buyan-M" project. This was reported by the general director of the corporation Renat Mistakhov.

    A series of RTOs of project 21631 "Buyan-M" was limited to 12 ships, ten of which have already been built and two are being completed at the Zelenodolsk Shipyard. The Buyans were replaced by RTOs of project 22800 Karakurt, but the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation announced plans to develop a new version of the RTOs based on the Buyan last year, noting the huge modernization potential of the ships of this project. And this year, the designers presented a new project of a small rocket ship.

    As the developers explained, at the moment a draft design of RTOs of project 21635 "Sarsar" has been created. In the guise of the base model, the new one has an increased displacement, improved seaworthiness, a replacement of the propulsion unit and an increase in the number of cruise missiles. The result was an RTO for operations at sea, armed with 16 Kalibr cruise missiles instead of eight.

    https://en.topwar.ru/204129-novyj-proekt-mrk-sarsar-razrabotan-na-baze-malyh-raketnyh-korablej-proekta-21631-bujan-m.html

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 3123
    Points : 3119
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:44 am

    They should order more Project 20380 instead. To replace remaining Grisha and Parchim class corvettes in the Baltic, Northern, and Black Sea fleets. Which would be around 15 ships.

    These are true multi-role vessels with quality air defense capabilities including Redut with ability to quad pack SAMs against drones.

    This is already being done in the Pacific Fleet and is providing a much needed capability given the lack of frigates and destroyers. Project 20380 is basically a light frigate.

    Project 20380 also has great ASW capabilities. Including towed sonar array and capability to fire ASW missiles using the UKSK VLS launchers.

    These ships could escort the Russian merchant fleet in case NATO attempts to do a blockade.

    If I was to do this enlarged Buyan-M I would use two 20D500 engines to increase displacement by 25%. This would allow the enlarged hull they want to do. But I think this should be low priority.

    Mir likes this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7447
    Points : 7537
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  ALAMO Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:58 am

    Again : Buyan is a river class boat that can operate along the Russian canals.
    20380 is twice the size of 1124.
    Germany build 133 type was even smaller.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40448
    Points : 40948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:32 am

    Why instead?

    They could do with more Corvettes, and improving designs just makes sense anyway.


    This is already being done in the Pacific Fleet and is providing a much needed capability given the lack of frigates and destroyers. Project 20380 is basically a light frigate.

    So what they should really be doing in producing Frigates and improved Frigates and existing Corvettes and start looking at starting Destroyers.

    Hole likes this post

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 6162
    Points : 6182
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:05 pm

    im still puzzled why more Buyans as they are only off shore platforms for launching missiles?
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7447
    Points : 7537
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  ALAMO Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:20 pm

    As I said, those are river boats - the same as Karakurts.
    Compromised for small drought to operate according to canal specification.
    Which is a very wise move, but those can't replace a bigger ocean going ships.
    I highly doubt if it can operate effectively 4+ Beaufort, and can't use a weapon at that point almost for sure.
    It is not even a matter of size and displacement, but a project.
    Still, it can replace both Grisha and Parchims, as those were about the same size, and operated close to the shore as well. Using a 20380 hull for the job is a waste of buoyancy.

    GarryB and Rodion_Romanovic like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 3123
    Points : 3119
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:37 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:im still puzzled why more Buyans as they are only off shore platforms for launching missiles?
    They want to make a bigger Buyan-M which also has ASW capabilities. i.e. a sonar.
    So instead of a pure missile boat it would be a multi-role corvette.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40448
    Points : 40948
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 07, 2024 6:15 am

    They have had a bit of experience with the Buyan design and clearly find it useful, but also clearly find it a bit lacking for other duties so they have designed an enlarged version of it.

    That makes perfect sense to me.

    They did the same with the Gorshkov frigates where they built a few and then redesigned it to carry a heavier payload.

    It makes sense for small scale upgrades but of course they wont be looking a Buyan-M5 Cruiser designs.

    The first boats they make are a bit conservative and relatively light and after confirmation of their performance they up the ante with more weapons and better weapons... and presumably better sensors and propulsion etc etc.

    Ironically it was the French Mistral class that reveals their ambition where experience with a 23 K ton helicopter carrier has led to them laying down two 40K ton helicopter landing ships.

    What they really need is large serial orders so they can build up fleet numbers. The multirole nature of their new designs will make things much easier...

    Instead of having to decide how many Sovremmenys and how many Udaloys they need they can just make Improved Gorshkovs that can do both roles at the same time.... rather better than the older ships could. (Sovs had 8 Moskits and Udaloys had 8 SS-N-14s, while a current Gorshkov with 8 Zircons and 8 Ovtet missiles is better than either with both operating together.)

    Sponsored content


    Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship - Page 27 Empty Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M missile ship

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Nov 09, 2024 6:34 pm