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    Revisionism about WWII and USSR

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:50 am

    FYI, Lenin gave Finland independence in 1918, w/o him in power she would also remain part of Russia; Kerensky or his successors would need to sign an armistice with Germany anyway.

    Well there you go... Finland is not a real country either...

    thanks to the Western desire to bring them into direct contact with the USSR to facilitate the war between them.

    But how was it ever to go any differently. Germany attacked west first so if that was the intent then it didn't really work.

    the British had done most of the work for them. R. Gess last ditch effort was too little, too late- after they failed to accommodate the USSR- their diplomatic skill could be a lot better than it was.
    The Thai WWII diplomacy was more skillful- by siding with Japan & later switching sides they avoided the bloodshed like in Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam & China.

    If that is the definition then Italy was the most diplomatic...

    Hitler hoped he would get support from the Brits & Japan if not USA once he took Moscow.

    He did not. He was having the Luftwaffe bomb the UK and was getting bombed in turn by the Brits and the Yanks... many non nazi Germans thought taht when Hitler was out of the way they could form an alliance with the west and fight the Soviets but that wasn't even considered by the Brits and the Yanks at the time.

    Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41 instead of Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, N. Sakhalin & Kamchatka only after it didn't happen.

    They tried to invade Mongolia in 39 and were soundly beaten by the Soviets... leading them to change their focus from oil and wood and resources in Siberia to oil and wood and resources further south... in the Pacific... The US was a threat and needed to be challenged... the attack on Pearl Harbour was always going to be necessary... and if it was the Americans that planned and executed it it would have been an amazing piece of pre-emptive self defence... it was certainly not an unprovoked attack... the US and UK had Japan under shipping embargo... an act of war if ever there was one.

    Despite their earlier defeat at Khalkhin Gol, the Japanese would've hoped to play on local separatism & could have used conscripted Koreans & Chinese to invade & occupy the Soviet FE.

    What local separatism? Why do you think the Chinese or Koreans would fight for Japan in Mongolia or Russia... they didn't fight for them anywhere else...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:07 am

    Germany attacked west first so if that was the intent then it didn't really work.
    at Dunkirk Hitler allowed the Brits to evacuate her army in hope to reach a peace deal. We still don't know many details of what went on behind the scenes as they r still classified in the UK.
    If that is the definition then Italy was the most diplomatic...
    Finland, Romania & Bulgaria did the same, but Italy suffered a lot more than all of them.
    ..leading them to change their focus from oil and wood and resources in Siberia to oil and wood and resources further south... in the Pacific... The US was a threat and needed to be challenged... the attack on Pearl Harbour was always going to be necessary...
    if they took E. Siberia/FE, SE Asian resources wouldn't need to be fought over. They had their plate full in China which btw had many of those as well. Western colonies in Indochina weren't going to be a big threat.
    What local separatism?
    there were many white emigres in China for Japan to use; the natives & GULAG inmates, former & current, in E. Siberia/FE that been subjugated/colonized/exiled could also help.
    Why do you think the Chinese or Koreans would fight for Japan in Mongolia or Russia... they didn't fight for them anywhere else...
    There were many collaborators during the Japanese occupation of Korea & most of China; the Chinese/Manchurians could be auxiliaries/mercenaries & many Koreans did serve in the IJA, which was building up forces in Manchuria for planned attack in the FE after Moscow was taken. The Chinese could hope to use the Japanese to regain lost territories &/ revenge their losses; there would be a lot more of them than the Japanese colonists to settle there. Asians r masters of double & triple crosses.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:54 am

    at Dunkirk Hitler allowed the Brits to evacuate her army in hope to reach a peace deal. We still don't know many details of what went on behind the scenes as they r still classified in the UK.

    They had just rolled over them so easily I doubt he saw them as much of a threat... and as they had the UK basically block aided and they leftmost of their equipment in France they had been largely neutralised as a threat anyway.

    We don't know what on behind closed doors, but we do know both sides bombed the crap out of each other for quite some time after that...

    Finland, Romania & Bulgaria did the same, but Italy suffered a lot more than all of them.

    All the countries on continental europe except Germany changed sides depending on which troops were on their territory... it has nothing to do with courage and everything to do with not being stupid... if the Brits didn't have an English Channel to hide behind things would have been rather different for them... they didn't have the distance the Soviets had to stretch the German lines... and more importantly they were not getting exterminated by the Germans like the Soviets were so surrender was actually an option...

    But only Italy and France get shit for changing sides...

    if they took E. Siberia/FE, SE Asian resources wouldn't need to be fought over.

    But they couldn't take them... they tried and failed and got their asses handed to them so badly they changed their policy and headed south instead.

    As a growing power however they were always going to come in conflict with the British Empire and the US... both of which occupied territory in the region... it is amusing when the west talks about imperial Japan and their aggression but ignore the French and British and American colonies they were liberating for themselves... it seems that under western rule the oppressed locals were better off than being under Japanese rule, but the locals quickly worked out that independence was actually the best solution of them all.

    They had their plate full in China which btw had many of those as well. Western colonies in Indochina weren't going to be a big threat.

    Japan had plans to expand its empire... and why shouldn't it... Britain did, France did, the US did.... it sounds very hollow westerners calling the Japanese bad for doing exactly what the west had already done itself.

    there were many white emigres in China for Japan to use; the natives & GULAG inmates, former & current, in E. Siberia/FE that been subjugated/colonized/exiled could also help.

    Rubbish... they spoke Russian... why would they trade being Russian for being a subject of Japan?

    Asians r masters of double & triple crosses.

    Yeah, you say that but they were getting screwed by white people as much as anyone else... opium wars etc etc...


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:55 pm

    ..we do know both sides bombed the crap out of each other for quite some time after that...
    1 big mistake led to the other after German bombs fell on British civilians.
    But they couldn't take them... they tried and failed and got their asses handed to them so badly they changed their policy and headed south instead.
    but if Moscow did fall, they were ready to implement their plans to include the taking of Transbaikal & FE areas. The bigger part of the Kwantung Army otherwise would be fighting the Chinese KMT instead of standing on the USSR & Mongolian borders waiting for the "go" signal.
    Rubbish... they spoke Russian... why would they trade being Russian for being a subject of Japan?
    they would hope to get autonomy or independence later like Generals Vlasov & Krasnov in the West. The Japanese interacting with them would know Russian &/ other European languages which Russians also knew.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:55 am

    1 big mistake led to the other after German bombs fell on British civilians.

    If the Germans had actually been bombing military targets in Britain they might have won that part of the conflict.

    Bombing the radars and airfields and the British would have been screwed. After taking out the RAF they could then have concentrated on taking out the Royal Navy and then planned their invasion of the UK. Remember they were still receiving material from the Soviet Union at this stage... oil, steel etc etc by 43 they probably could have mounted a successful invasion of the UK... the Soviets were only allies with the west because both were fighting the Germans... if the Germans had left invasion of the Soviet Union until 1944 or so things could have been rather different... the Soviets could have replaced their polikarpov fighters and T-26 tanks with more capable models and spent more time improving their defences because they would know once Germany had defeated the UK that they were next... but lets let them continue to fight Britain and weaken each other... eventually the Germans would have introduced the Tiger tank but the Panther was a knee jerk reaction to the shock of the T-34 so would not have existed. For fighting the British their existing tank types would have been fine so no rapid development or modernisation there...

    The US would have had to have sent carriers to the UK to boost the RAF which would have reduced their ability in the Pacific...

    but if Moscow did fall, they were ready to implement their plans to include the taking of Transbaikal & FE areas.

    The German army was in no condition to take Moscow... in 41 or at any other time... armies plan for everything... in itself it means nothing... Britain had plans to continue WWII and fight the Soviets after germany was defeated but there was no political or military capacity or will to follow through with such plans.

    The bigger part of the Kwantung Army otherwise would be fighting the Chinese KMT instead of standing on the USSR & Mongolian borders waiting for the "go" signal.

    If the Japs had a huge force on the borders of Mongolia ready to invade, why would the Soviet spy in Japan tell Stalin it was OK to transfer troops from the Far East to Moscow?

    they would hope to get autonomy or independence later like Generals Vlasov & Krasnov in the West. The Japanese interacting with them would know Russian &/ other European languages which Russians also knew.

    The Russians disliked the Japanese more than they disliked the Germans... both sent troops to Russia to interfere in the civil war there...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:40 am

    If the Germans had actually been bombing military targets in Britain they might have won that part of the conflict.
    Bombing the radars and airfields and the British would have been screwed. After taking out the RAF they could then have concentrated on taking out the Royal Navy and then planned their invasion of the UK.
    the Spitfires won the air battle for Britain. Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win it & was told: give us those fighters.

    The German army was in no condition to take Moscow...
    Polish, French & Crimean Tatar armies took it before, & the Germans were stopped only 20 miles from the Kremlin:
    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germans-advance-in-ussr#:~:text=The%20German%20offensive%20against%20Moscow,on%2C%20safe%20from%20the%20fighting

    It's wasn't clear to the Japanese until November-December 1941 that the Blitzkrieg failed.
    If the Japs had a huge force on the borders of Mongolia ready to invade, why would the Soviet spy in Japan tell Stalin it was OK to transfer troops from the Far East to Moscow?
    his well placed contacts told him that Japan won't attack the Soviet FE in 1941-42; he reported that & Stalin with his General Staff decided to transfer troops. As mentioned on another thread, only 3 divisions went West; the local conscription gradually replaced them in case Japan did attack- the threat was still remained.
    The Russians disliked the Japanese more than they disliked the Germans...
    I would say they hated them both at about the same level- for the losses in 1941 & the 1905 defeat in the Russo-Japanese War: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-russo-japanese-war-begins#:~:text=In%20January%201905%2C%20the%20strategic,destroyed%20by%20Togo%20near%20the
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:23 am

    Eh, The Germans could have taken Moscow, the problem was Hitlar gave them orders which pretty much doomed them but even if they took Moscow it wouldn't have changed the end result. So taking Moscow would have been useless in the end.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:03 am

    Being the major transportation hub & the capital of RSFR & USSR, its loss would make it a lot harder, if not impossible, to turn the tide in the war. In the meantime, Japan would use this golden opportunity she was waiting for to take the E. Coast of Russia & E. Siberia.
    Thanks to the Serbs resisting them in the Balkans, the Germans postponed their Barbarossa from May till 6/22/41, wrecking the whole campaign & the entire war. Good incidental payback for Russia's help against Ottoman Turkey & during WWI!

    As noted before, w/o Chinese tying up the IJA, there would be a lot more Allied casualties. India also helped a lot:
    https://nvo.ng.ru/history/2020-06-25/11_1097_india.html?print=Y

    A historian interview on reasons for German-Soviet war:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTf4Yvx0rnc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5RuzYIQTA

    He says that Hitler & Stalin had irreconcilable ambitions & were too suspicious of each other to agree on who gets what if/after German defeats of the British Empire.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:51 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:45 pm

    More details on Japanese deliberations & tactics on attacking the USSR:
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3001585.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:14 am

    the Spitfires won the air battle for Britain. Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win it & was told: give us those fighters.

    Not really... the Spitfires were allowed to do well because they were new and capable fighters... the Hurricanes shot down more bombers being an older type they were ordered to concentrate on the bombers which they did while the Spitfires took on the fighters.

    If the German bombers had concentrated on bombing the radar sites... they were big and fixed and would be easy targets then the Spitfires and Hurricanes would have had to fly patrols to detect enemy aircraft rather than sitting on the airfields waiting for warnings from the radar sites.

    Then the bombers could have hit the airfields and wiped out the Spitfires and Hurricanes... much easier to get them on the ground and kill their crews and ground crews... the Germans had highly skilled fighter pilots and good fighters but if you don't kill the enemy airfields they are operating over friendly territory and can bail out easily enough...

    Polish, French & Crimean Tatar armies took it before, & the Germans were stopped only 20 miles from the Kremlin:

    The arrogance of the Germans meant their troops were not properly prepared for that first winter so the German troops really suffered. They would have suffered less if they had taken Moscow because they would have had places to shelter from the cold. They were simply unable to do it.



    his well placed contacts told him that Japan won't attack the Soviet FE in 1941-42; he reported that & Stalin with his General Staff decided to transfer troops. As mentioned on another thread, only 3 divisions went West; the local conscription gradually replaced them in case Japan did attack- the threat was still remained.

    I don't buy it... if they had the force there then when they noticed troops being transferred they might change their plans and attack...

    I would say they hated them both at about the same level

    Well earned in both cases...

    Eh, The Germans could have taken Moscow,

    Clearly they couldn't... they tried and they didn't.

    He says that Hitler & Stalin had irreconcilable ambitions & were too suspicious of each other to agree on who gets what if/after German defeats of the British Empire.

    Hahahaha... but Stalin and Roosevelt and Churchill were best buddies that saw eye to eye on absolutely everything...

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:05 am

    if they had the force there then when they noticed troops being transferred they might change their plans and attack...
    the article in my prev post shows that the Japanese set on the fence to see if Germany could defeat the Red Army in Europe before risking opening a 2nd front.  Germans insisting on it also showed them that they met their match.
    They were right as the Wehrmacht, the SS, & their allies 1st failed to take Moscow, then Leningrad, Stalingrad & Baku.
    They also had different naval strategies- the only commonality was them seeking lebensraum, having rich mil. history & being US enemies.
    https://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Allies-German-Japanese-Naval-Relations/dp/1557504652

    Let's not forget that the Japanese were not very trusting of Germans-Hitler called them little monkeys. If the USSR & Germany by some miracle got allied & fought Britain together, or if Germany didn't attack the USSR & continued fighting the UK, Japan would even less likely attack the USSR in the FE- Stalin was very shrewd to use China to keep Japan busy south of the border, & he would increase support to the KMT should Japan make more attempts to take on the USSR.
    More on Soviet retaking of Manchuria: https://ria.ru/20200730/1575083943.html

    3rd Reich final days: https://ria.ru/20200416/1570076565.html?in=t

    https://ria.ru/20200509/1571111578.html?in=t


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:00 pm

    https://aif.ru/society/history/seks_s_rotoy_soldat_iznasilovali_li_zapadnye_soyuzniki_million_nemok

    The Americans also replaced Japanese in Korea doing the same things.
    Most rapes by the Red Army soldiers occurred in Prussia- 1 of them told it all on a video.
    https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2018/03/11/PICTURES-The-largest-mass-rape-in-history
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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:26 am

    Rape is nowhere on the same level as murder. So all the hate propaganda that insinuates that it is makes for intellectually insulting drivel.

    The usual atrocity pattern is for rape followed by murder. Two orgasms for the price of one.

    All the efforts to make it look like Soviet soldiers were somehow distinct in the level of rape is typical NATzO BS. One "witness"
    does not prove 2,000,000 rapes. He only proves his own crime assuming he was not paid to lie about it.

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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:58 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://aif.ru/society/history/seks_s_rotoy_soldat_iznasilovali_li_zapadnye_soyuzniki_million_nemok

    The Americans also replaced Japanese in Korea doing the same things.
    Most rapes by the Red Army soldiers occurred in Prussia- 1 of them told it all on a video.
    https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2018/03/11/PICTURES-The-largest-mass-rape-in-history




    Al-Arabiya is concerned about the Nazi German anti-Semites being raped?


    Are not Jews and Ismaelites brothers?


    They both descend from Abraham.


    Where is their brotherly love?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:50 am

    I bet not all of those raped were anti-semites. Don't paint them the same color. Most Germans didn't even know about the killings in concentration camps run by the SS.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:20 pm

    Most Germans didn't even know about the killings in concentration camps run by the SS.

    They weren't that upset about them either... all they cared about was all those angry soviet soldiers on their way... considering what German troops did in the Soviet Union they got off very lightly... most of the 27 odd million Soviets killed were civilians...
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    Post  kvs on Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:56 pm

    I should add that the 2,000,000 rapes by Soviet soldiers in Germany lie is not backed up with any evidence. They could at
    least document these women since their case is a war crime. I doubt Germany was so crushed that it would not do this
    out of fear or deference. They could gather the names and details proving the reality of the claimants (if not actual victims)
    for later use.

    But no such documentation exists. And it turns out that this 2,000,000 figure is some sort of brain dead extrapolation as
    admitted by Beevor himself. The sort of estimate that had Serbs raping every female from newborn to deathbed granny
    during 1990s in BiH.

    NATzO hate propagandists should add dogs and cats to the rape victims estimates.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:27 pm

    They could at least document these women since their case is a war crime.
    The Red Army severely punished many who were caught doing it.
    Regardless how many were raped, most of them wouldn't report it - otherwise, no German man would ever touch them & they would die alone childless. Women forced by the Japanese to serve them in Korea & China were also hiding it.
    The accused side can always say that those cases r exaggerated & fabricated, as Japanese revisionists do to this day.
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:32 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:I bet not all of those raped were anti-semites. Don't paint them the same color. Most Germans didn't even know about the killings in concentration camps run by the SS.


    They very much knew about it.


    You believe in false myths.



    And regarding Al-Arabiya, what do these Semites have to say about this:

    http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/460/land-zamosc-zamojszczyzna-1942-1944



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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:04 pm

    I wonder, how this "top secret speech" could so soon be smuggled out? Besides, Stalin, being so secretive & authoritarian, wouldn't even need to make such a speech revealing all his cards in the 1st place: https://gordonua.com/publications/my-dolzhny-prinyat-predlozhennyy-germaniey-pakt-i-sposobstvovat-tomu-chtoby-voyna-prodlilas-kak-mozhno-dolshe-chto-skazal-stalin-19-avgusta-1939-goda-1514103.html
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    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:05 am



    Revisionism by Japan and its puppet master USA of the events in the last months of WWII takes the cake for in your face chutzpah.

    1) The USSR undertook to open a front against Japan at Yalta for its US and UK allies. The reason for this was that
    US war planners estimated that without Soviet assistance they would expend 1.5 million men to beat Japan. So the USSR
    was not some aggressor ripping up a neutrality agreement with peaceful Japan. It was contributing to the allied war effort
    against both Germany and Japan.

    2) Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not stop Japan, but according to the Japanese Prime Minister (in a statement from August 9th, 1945)
    the entry of the USSR into the war with Japan put Japan in a no-win situation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are overrated. Dresden
    was just as shocking in terms of 100,000 dead in one night but it did not stop Germany from fighting the war. Japanese front line soldiers
    did not know anything about the nuclear bombings and even if they got some sort of underground information, they would not respond
    any differently from Germans. In fact, their whole Bushido ethic would have given them more resolve. Maybe if the USA carpet
    bombed Japan with nukes then it would have precipitated an instant surrender.

    3) The USSR defeated the 1 million man Kwantung army of Japan in Manchuria. This was a substantial defeat for Japan and not
    some side show. The aircract carrier war in the Pacific was the real side show.

    Today we have the sob story being pimped by Japan and the USA that the USSR "invaded" Japanese ancient territories in southern
    Sakahlin and Kuriles. This reminds me of the BS spread about the so-called partition of Poland which was actually the return
    of lands occupied by Poland during its 1920 invasion of the USSR. Turn the victimizer into the victim is the essence of this
    propaganda.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:24 am

    What propaganda KVS.

    The Japanese Navy was destroyed and their airforce was reduced to nothing, the Japanese thought maybe just maybe if it was just the united states they could hold off long enough to bring the US to the table. In the end, they knew it was beyond hopeless they could not fight the United States and they knew it.

    They also knew it before the war started their entire plan was based around one critical naval battle that would allow them to dominate but they knew in a sustained war against the US they would lose.

    it is true the PM did say when the USSR entered the war, the situation was beyond feasible at that stage but the war was already over for them well beyond that point.

    Trying to say the reason Japan surrendered was due to the USSR is nothing short of propaganda revisionist history.

    The naval battle was a sideshow? LoL what an idiotic thing to say, if Japan's navy was intact the USSR would never have been able to land on the Kurils for example, this statement alone shows how full of crap your statement is. The USSR never would have been able to threaten Japan mainland if the Navy was still intact, the Japanese would have kicked the USSR navies teeth in for even trying. The Japanese also would have fought back much harder if they weren't so tied up with the US.

    Guess who killed around two Japanese soldiers island hopping to take back the areas they occupied, not the USSR it was the US. We dealt with the bulk of the Imperial Army, the USSR just cleaned up the scraps.

    I cannot believe the blatant propaganda you just posted.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:39 am

    In the end, they knew it was beyond hopeless they could not fight the United States and they knew it.
    they could fight to the bitter end on their own islands, just like the British in case they were invaded by Germans.
    They also knew it before the war started their entire plan was based around one critical naval battle that would allow them to dominate but they knew in a sustained war against the US they would lose.
    then why they didn't surrender or at least sued for peace after the battle of Midway?
    it is true the PM did say when the USSR entered the war, the situation was beyond feasible at that stage but the war was already over for them well beyond that point.
    Only in the Pacific & Indochina; not in the NE Asian areas they still occupied.
    Trying to say the reason Japan surrendered was due to the USSR is nothing short of propaganda revisionist history.
    they would have surrendered w/o the USSR, but only much later, with many more American casualties.
    The USSR never would have been able to threaten Japan mainland if the Navy was still intact,..
    that wasn't the VMF goal- it was tasked with retaking Sakhalin & Kurils + later perhaps the Hokkaido Island that is mostly wilderness frontier prefecture North of Honshu, the main island. 
    We dealt with the bulk of the Imperial Army, the USSR just cleaned up the scraps.
    wrong: the bulk of the IJA was dealt with by the Chinese, other Asians, & later the Soviets: 
    At the beginning of the Pacific War in 1941, the Imperial Japanese Army contained 51 divisions,[1] 27 of which were stationed in China. A further 13 divisions defended the Manchurian-Soviet border, due to concerns about a possible attack by the Soviet Union. [that leaves 11 divisions in Japan & the Pacific]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army_during_the_Pacific_War

    The Second Sino-Japanese War was the largest Asian war in the 20th century. It accounted for the majority of civilian and military casualties in the Pacific War, with between 10 and 25 million Chinese civilians and over 4 million Chinese and Japanese military personnel missing or dying from war-related violence, famine, and other causes. 

    • Japanese medical data:

      • 455,700[20]–700,000 military dead[21]
      • 1,934,820 wounded and missing[22]
      • 22,293+ captured[c]
      • Total: 2,500,000+ military casualties (1937 to 1945 excluding Manchuria and Burma campaign)
        Japanese military casualties from 1937-1945 have been estimated at 1,834,000, of which 1,740,000 were killed or missing. Some 388,600 of these were incurred in China, another 210,830 in southeast Asia, and the rest in the Pacific. Of these, some 300,386 were naval fatalities, and some 334 Japanese warships were sunk during the war.
      • http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm




    So, 1,740,000-(388,600+210,830)-300,386=840,184 IJA & Marines killed in the Pacific, or 2.07 times less of the total. Pl. correct me if I missed anything, & have a nice day!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:10 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)

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    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:01 am

    1. Imperial Japan wanted to fight until the bitter end, Toto refused to surrender even tho everyone else knew it was hopeless in the end. The Emperor overruled him and he later killed himself. Japan no longer had the men, resources, equipment, or anything else to fight.

    You don't know much about the war and that's fine. Japan banked most of their income on their navy.

    2. This is exactly how I know you don't know what you talking about. "Operation Ketsu-Go" Anyone who knows anything should know this term and what it means, In short the Japanese knew they could not win in a prolonged war.

    Their plan was based around one massive strike that could knock the USN out of the war. Japan knew it would be out produced at sea and outmanned, Japan spent most of their money on their Navy.

    They did not surrender because Toto refused to surrender and Toto pretty much had the ear of the Emperor, simply put back then the Japanese were extremely fanatical proud, dying in battle in defense of their homeland was a better option than surrender.

    3. Didn't matter if they had those areas, knocking out Japan takes care of them, some areas were just pointless to recapture.

    4. Not really yes the surrender would have came later but the bombs pretty much forced them to surrender we didn't even need to land in Japan hell we were going to drop more of them until they surrendered. Luckily their Emperor had the sense to surrender before it came to that.

    5. Don't quote Wikipedia to me as a source that place isn't reliable at all when it comes to numbers.

    For example the Chinese only killed about 200k, by 1944 many divisions have been removed from China to combat US operations.

    You are getting your data from an unreliable site.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:53 am

    Sad your graph is wrong, the Germans did not have over 700 divisions during the war lol.

    You do understand that after a division is effectively destroyed its reminents are used to form new units... a destroyed division does not mean every single man killed or captured... otherwise the number of destroyed divisions for the whole war on all sides would be about 6... even the encircled and captured Soviet divisions in 1941 and 1942 were not totally destroyed... we know numbers of them joined the locals as partizans or snuck back through the lines...

    Though no one is sure what the actual number is war records like that were pretty much destroyed and the USSR just didn't keep track of that well.

    There has never been any question that three quarters of German combat kills... ie soldiers and not old men and old women and children during the strategic bombing, were killed on the eastern front and the eastern front was where all their best soldiers and best generals were sent.

    1) The USSR undertook to open a front against Japan at Yalta for its US and UK allies. The reason for this was that
    US war planners estimated that without Soviet assistance they would expend 1.5 million men to beat Japan. So the USSR
    was not some aggressor ripping up a neutrality agreement with peaceful Japan. It was contributing to the allied war effort
    against both Germany and Japan.

    At the time the US demanded the Soviets enter the war in the Pacific because they were afraid they might get left holding the back and spend the next 5 years fighting the Japanese. The Americans demanded that Stalin join the war in the pacific six months from the ceasefire in Europe... they were afraid Stalin might do what Britain and the US did in Europe... sit and wait and let each side wear each other down and then come in at the last moment and get as much territory as they can and start to dictate terms on everyone...

    Of course Stalin remembered 1905 and there were a few unsettled issues to be dealt with...

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki are overrated. Dresden
    was just as shocking in terms of 100,000 dead in one night but it did not stop Germany from fighting the war.

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki were largely left untouched by the US bombing campaign because they had very little military value, which is why they were selected as targets for the nuclear bombs, because the message to Japan was that we will bomb and kill all your people... even the ones that pose no threat to us and are not fighting us. But really the same message was directed at Stalin too... the US hinted at a secret new weapon but Stalin appeared not interested... because he already probably knew more about it than the US politicians did...

    The firebombing campaigns in Japan were vastly more devastating than in Germany. Germany had much stronger and more solidly built buildings so they needed HE bombs first to blow them open and expose the furnishings and structure, followed by incendiary bombs to set it alight. For Japan the mainly wood and paper materials used for construction made the HE unnecessary so they just dropped incendiaries. The fire bombing of Japanese cities killed rather more than either nuclear bomb...

    In fact, their whole Bushido ethic would have given them more resolve. Maybe if the USA carpet
    bombed Japan with nukes then it would have precipitated an instant surrender.

    The Japanese already knew they had lost, but they did not want an unconditional surrender which was what the Americans were demanding. They approached the Soviets hoping to negotiate with the Americans through them but they didn't know about their agreement at Yalta to attack Japan... which the Soviets were keen to do to get back the islands and territory they had lost in 1905.

    The Japanese Navy was destroyed and their airforce was reduced to nothing, the Japanese thought maybe just maybe if it was just the united states they could hold off long enough to bring the US to the table. In the end, they knew it was beyond hopeless they could not fight the United States and they knew it.

    Very true, but the Japanese could not surrender on US terms which was unconditional. Their Emperor was considered to be a god... what if the Americans decided to try and execute him for war crimes... they couldn't tolerate that.

    Ironically the Japanese kept their leadership intact, though of course losing all his actual power, he and his family retain their position... which is probably why their children are taught nothing about WWII... especially their actions...

    Worse the US actually actively sought out some of their doctors to try to get a hold of their results intact, they offered immunity and jobs in the US with a house... bastards.

    Trying to say the reason Japan surrendered was due to the USSR is nothing short of propaganda revisionist history.

    If it was the nukes why did they wait so long after the detonations?

    The Soviets occupied all of China and Manchuria and had taken back all the islands lost to Japan in 1905, and they got half way down the Korean Penninsula... the next step would be the invasion of Japan.

    The US was scared about 1.5 million potential killed American soldiers with an invasion of Japan... do you think Stalin would care about 1.5 million more dead if he could destroy Japan.

    Guess who killed around two Japanese soldiers island hopping to take back the areas they occupied, not the USSR it was the US. We dealt with the bulk of the Imperial Army, the USSR just cleaned up the scraps.

    Yeah, I remember the US decided to capture the Aluetion islands that they believed the Japanese occupied.... they took a couple of weeks and lost about 100 soldiers, but they took those islands. Not a single Japanese soldier was there or had been there, so losing only 100 soldiers was probably pretty good for unopposed beach landings. Of course to be serious beach landings are difficult and dangerous even when done without enemy fire.

    just like the British in case they were invaded by Germans.

    But they didn't. Those British islands the Germans took were walkovers...

    1. Imperial Japan wanted to fight until the bitter end, Toto refused to surrender even tho everyone else knew it was hopeless in the end. The Emperor overruled him and he later killed himself. Japan no longer had the men, resources, equipment, or anything else to fight.

    The Japanese refused to surrender unconditionally... the fact that they did surrender proves they weren't prepared to fight until the bitter end.


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