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    Revisionism about WWII and USSR

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:50 pm

    FYI, Lenin gave Finland independence in 1918, w/o him in power she would also remain part of Russia; Kerensky or his successors would need to sign an armistice with Germany anyway.

    Well there you go... Finland is not a real country either...

    thanks to the Western desire to bring them into direct contact with the USSR to facilitate the war between them.

    But how was it ever to go any differently. Germany attacked west first so if that was the intent then it didn't really work.

    the British had done most of the work for them. R. Gess last ditch effort was too little, too late- after they failed to accommodate the USSR- their diplomatic skill could be a lot better than it was.
    The Thai WWII diplomacy was more skillful- by siding with Japan & later switching sides they avoided the bloodshed like in Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam & China.

    If that is the definition then Italy was the most diplomatic...

    Hitler hoped he would get support from the Brits & Japan if not USA once he took Moscow.

    He did not. He was having the Luftwaffe bomb the UK and was getting bombed in turn by the Brits and the Yanks... many non nazi Germans thought taht when Hitler was out of the way they could form an alliance with the west and fight the Soviets but that wasn't even considered by the Brits and the Yanks at the time.

    Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41 instead of Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, N. Sakhalin & Kamchatka only after it didn't happen.

    They tried to invade Mongolia in 39 and were soundly beaten by the Soviets... leading them to change their focus from oil and wood and resources in Siberia to oil and wood and resources further south... in the Pacific... The US was a threat and needed to be challenged... the attack on Pearl Harbour was always going to be necessary... and if it was the Americans that planned and executed it it would have been an amazing piece of pre-emptive self defence... it was certainly not an unprovoked attack... the US and UK had Japan under shipping embargo... an act of war if ever there was one.

    Despite their earlier defeat at Khalkhin Gol, the Japanese would've hoped to play on local separatism & could have used conscripted Koreans & Chinese to invade & occupy the Soviet FE.

    What local separatism? Why do you think the Chinese or Koreans would fight for Japan in Mongolia or Russia... they didn't fight for them anywhere else...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:07 am

    Germany attacked west first so if that was the intent then it didn't really work.
    at Dunkirk Hitler allowed the Brits to evacuate her army in hope to reach a peace deal. We still don't know many details of what went on behind the scenes as they r still classified in the UK.
    If that is the definition then Italy was the most diplomatic...
    Finland, Romania & Bulgaria did the same, but Italy suffered a lot more than all of them.
    ..leading them to change their focus from oil and wood and resources in Siberia to oil and wood and resources further south... in the Pacific... The US was a threat and needed to be challenged... the attack on Pearl Harbour was always going to be necessary...
    if they took E. Siberia/FE, SE Asian resources wouldn't need to be fought over. They had their plate full in China which btw had many of those as well. Western colonies in Indochina weren't going to be a big threat.
    What local separatism?
    there were many white emigres in China for Japan to use; the natives & GULAG inmates, former & current, in E. Siberia/FE that been subjugated/colonized/exiled could also help.
    Why do you think the Chinese or Koreans would fight for Japan in Mongolia or Russia... they didn't fight for them anywhere else...
    There were many collaborators during the Japanese occupation of Korea & most of China; the Chinese/Manchurians could be auxiliaries/mercenaries & many Koreans did serve in the IJA, which was building up forces in Manchuria for planned attack in the FE after Moscow was taken. The Chinese could hope to use the Japanese to regain lost territories &/ revenge their losses; there would be a lot more of them than the Japanese colonists to settle there. Asians r masters of double & triple crosses.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:54 am

    at Dunkirk Hitler allowed the Brits to evacuate her army in hope to reach a peace deal. We still don't know many details of what went on behind the scenes as they r still classified in the UK.

    They had just rolled over them so easily I doubt he saw them as much of a threat... and as they had the UK basically block aided and they leftmost of their equipment in France they had been largely neutralised as a threat anyway.

    We don't know what on behind closed doors, but we do know both sides bombed the crap out of each other for quite some time after that...

    Finland, Romania & Bulgaria did the same, but Italy suffered a lot more than all of them.

    All the countries on continental europe except Germany changed sides depending on which troops were on their territory... it has nothing to do with courage and everything to do with not being stupid... if the Brits didn't have an English Channel to hide behind things would have been rather different for them... they didn't have the distance the Soviets had to stretch the German lines... and more importantly they were not getting exterminated by the Germans like the Soviets were so surrender was actually an option...

    But only Italy and France get shit for changing sides...

    if they took E. Siberia/FE, SE Asian resources wouldn't need to be fought over.

    But they couldn't take them... they tried and failed and got their asses handed to them so badly they changed their policy and headed south instead.

    As a growing power however they were always going to come in conflict with the British Empire and the US... both of which occupied territory in the region... it is amusing when the west talks about imperial Japan and their aggression but ignore the French and British and American colonies they were liberating for themselves... it seems that under western rule the oppressed locals were better off than being under Japanese rule, but the locals quickly worked out that independence was actually the best solution of them all.

    They had their plate full in China which btw had many of those as well. Western colonies in Indochina weren't going to be a big threat.

    Japan had plans to expand its empire... and why shouldn't it... Britain did, France did, the US did.... it sounds very hollow westerners calling the Japanese bad for doing exactly what the west had already done itself.

    there were many white emigres in China for Japan to use; the natives & GULAG inmates, former & current, in E. Siberia/FE that been subjugated/colonized/exiled could also help.

    Rubbish... they spoke Russian... why would they trade being Russian for being a subject of Japan?

    Asians r masters of double & triple crosses.

    Yeah, you say that but they were getting screwed by white people as much as anyone else... opium wars etc etc...


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:55 am

    ..we do know both sides bombed the crap out of each other for quite some time after that...
    1 big mistake led to the other after German bombs fell on British civilians.
    But they couldn't take them... they tried and failed and got their asses handed to them so badly they changed their policy and headed south instead.
    but if Moscow did fall, they were ready to implement their plans to include the taking of Transbaikal & FE areas. The bigger part of the Kwantung Army otherwise would be fighting the Chinese KMT instead of standing on the USSR & Mongolian borders waiting for the "go" signal.
    Rubbish... they spoke Russian... why would they trade being Russian for being a subject of Japan?
    they would hope to get autonomy or independence later like Generals Vlasov & Krasnov in the West. The Japanese interacting with them would know Russian &/ other European languages which Russians also knew.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:55 pm

    1 big mistake led to the other after German bombs fell on British civilians.

    If the Germans had actually been bombing military targets in Britain they might have won that part of the conflict.

    Bombing the radars and airfields and the British would have been screwed. After taking out the RAF they could then have concentrated on taking out the Royal Navy and then planned their invasion of the UK. Remember they were still receiving material from the Soviet Union at this stage... oil, steel etc etc by 43 they probably could have mounted a successful invasion of the UK... the Soviets were only allies with the west because both were fighting the Germans... if the Germans had left invasion of the Soviet Union until 1944 or so things could have been rather different... the Soviets could have replaced their polikarpov fighters and T-26 tanks with more capable models and spent more time improving their defences because they would know once Germany had defeated the UK that they were next... but lets let them continue to fight Britain and weaken each other... eventually the Germans would have introduced the Tiger tank but the Panther was a knee jerk reaction to the shock of the T-34 so would not have existed. For fighting the British their existing tank types would have been fine so no rapid development or modernisation there...

    The US would have had to have sent carriers to the UK to boost the RAF which would have reduced their ability in the Pacific...

    but if Moscow did fall, they were ready to implement their plans to include the taking of Transbaikal & FE areas.

    The German army was in no condition to take Moscow... in 41 or at any other time... armies plan for everything... in itself it means nothing... Britain had plans to continue WWII and fight the Soviets after germany was defeated but there was no political or military capacity or will to follow through with such plans.

    The bigger part of the Kwantung Army otherwise would be fighting the Chinese KMT instead of standing on the USSR & Mongolian borders waiting for the "go" signal.

    If the Japs had a huge force on the borders of Mongolia ready to invade, why would the Soviet spy in Japan tell Stalin it was OK to transfer troops from the Far East to Moscow?

    they would hope to get autonomy or independence later like Generals Vlasov & Krasnov in the West. The Japanese interacting with them would know Russian &/ other European languages which Russians also knew.

    The Russians disliked the Japanese more than they disliked the Germans... both sent troops to Russia to interfere in the civil war there...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:40 pm

    If the Germans had actually been bombing military targets in Britain they might have won that part of the conflict.
    Bombing the radars and airfields and the British would have been screwed. After taking out the RAF they could then have concentrated on taking out the Royal Navy and then planned their invasion of the UK.
    the Spitfires won the air battle for Britain. Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win it & was told: give us those fighters.

    The German army was in no condition to take Moscow...
    Polish, French & Crimean Tatar armies took it before, & the Germans were stopped only 20 miles from the Kremlin:
    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germans-advance-in-ussr#:~:text=The%20German%20offensive%20against%20Moscow,on%2C%20safe%20from%20the%20fighting

    It's wasn't clear to the Japanese until November-December 1941 that the Blitzkrieg failed.
    If the Japs had a huge force on the borders of Mongolia ready to invade, why would the Soviet spy in Japan tell Stalin it was OK to transfer troops from the Far East to Moscow?
    his well placed contacts told him that Japan won't attack the Soviet FE in 1941-42; he reported that & Stalin with his General Staff decided to transfer troops. As mentioned on another thread, only 3 divisions went West; the local conscription gradually replaced them in case Japan did attack- the threat was still remained.
    The Russians disliked the Japanese more than they disliked the Germans...
    I would say they hated them both at about the same level- for the losses in 1941 & the 1905 defeat in the Russo-Japanese War: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-russo-japanese-war-begins#:~:text=In%20January%201905%2C%20the%20strategic,destroyed%20by%20Togo%20near%20the
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:23 am

    Eh, The Germans could have taken Moscow, the problem was Hitlar gave them orders which pretty much doomed them but even if they took Moscow it wouldn't have changed the end result. So taking Moscow would have been useless in the end.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:03 am

    Being the major transportation hub & the capital of RSFR & USSR, its loss would make it a lot harder, if not impossible, to turn the tide in the war. In the meantime, Japan would use this golden opportunity she was waiting for to take the E. Coast of Russia & E. Siberia.
    Thanks to the Serbs resisting them in the Balkans, the Germans postponed their Barbarossa from May till 6/22/41, wrecking the whole campaign & the entire war. Good incidental payback for Russia's help against Ottoman Turkey & during WWI!

    As noted before, w/o Chinese tying up the IJA, there would be a lot more Allied casualties. India also helped a lot:
    https://nvo.ng.ru/history/2020-06-25/11_1097_india.html?print=Y

    A historian interview on reasons for German-Soviet war:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTf4Yvx0rnc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5RuzYIQTA

    He says that Hitler & Stalin had irreconcilable ambitions & were too suspicious of each other to agree on who gets what if/after German defeats of the British Empire.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:51 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:45 pm

    More details on Japanese deliberations & tactics on attacking the USSR:
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3001585.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:14 am

    the Spitfires won the air battle for Britain. Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win it & was told: give us those fighters.

    Not really... the Spitfires were allowed to do well because they were new and capable fighters... the Hurricanes shot down more bombers being an older type they were ordered to concentrate on the bombers which they did while the Spitfires took on the fighters.

    If the German bombers had concentrated on bombing the radar sites... they were big and fixed and would be easy targets then the Spitfires and Hurricanes would have had to fly patrols to detect enemy aircraft rather than sitting on the airfields waiting for warnings from the radar sites.

    Then the bombers could have hit the airfields and wiped out the Spitfires and Hurricanes... much easier to get them on the ground and kill their crews and ground crews... the Germans had highly skilled fighter pilots and good fighters but if you don't kill the enemy airfields they are operating over friendly territory and can bail out easily enough...

    Polish, French & Crimean Tatar armies took it before, & the Germans were stopped only 20 miles from the Kremlin:

    The arrogance of the Germans meant their troops were not properly prepared for that first winter so the German troops really suffered. They would have suffered less if they had taken Moscow because they would have had places to shelter from the cold. They were simply unable to do it.



    his well placed contacts told him that Japan won't attack the Soviet FE in 1941-42; he reported that & Stalin with his General Staff decided to transfer troops. As mentioned on another thread, only 3 divisions went West; the local conscription gradually replaced them in case Japan did attack- the threat was still remained.

    I don't buy it... if they had the force there then when they noticed troops being transferred they might change their plans and attack...

    I would say they hated them both at about the same level

    Well earned in both cases...

    Eh, The Germans could have taken Moscow,

    Clearly they couldn't... they tried and they didn't.

    He says that Hitler & Stalin had irreconcilable ambitions & were too suspicious of each other to agree on who gets what if/after German defeats of the British Empire.

    Hahahaha... but Stalin and Roosevelt and Churchill were best buddies that saw eye to eye on absolutely everything...

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:05 am

    if they had the force there then when they noticed troops being transferred they might change their plans and attack...
    the article in my prev post shows that the Japanese set on the fence to see if Germany could defeat the Red Army in Europe before risking opening a 2nd front.  Germans insisting on it also showed them that they met their match.
    They were right as the Wehrmacht, the SS, & their allies 1st failed to take Moscow, then Leningrad, Stalingrad & Baku.
    They also had different naval strategies- the only commonality was them seeking lebensraum, having rich mil. history & being US enemies.
    https://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Allies-German-Japanese-Naval-Relations/dp/1557504652

    Let's not forget that the Japanese were not very trusting of Germans-Hitler called them little monkeys. If the USSR & Germany by some miracle got allied & fought Britain together, or if Germany didn't attack the USSR & continued fighting the UK, Japan would even less likely attack the USSR in the FE- Stalin was very shrewd to use China to keep Japan busy south of the border, & he would increase support to the KMT should Japan make more attempts to take on the USSR.
    More on Soviet retaking of Manchuria: https://ria.ru/20200730/1575083943.html

    3rd Reich final days: https://ria.ru/20200416/1570076565.html?in=t

    https://ria.ru/20200509/1571111578.html?in=t


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)

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