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    Revisionism about WWII and USSR

    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:15 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Makes me doubt the history I have been taught all my life about the west from western sources...

    Churchill stated that history would look favourably on him and his actions because he intended to write it...

    What a self centred dirt bag he was.

    No reason to doubt. Europe become the major technological, expansive power in the world even when other cultures were much more advanced primarily because of

    (1) Ethical Monotheism, which set up basis for intra-human interaction, common value basis, set of rules and created trust within society, and led into abolition of slavery. It also laid basis on philosophy and judicial system and rule of law instead of despot’s whim
       
    (2) Capitalism, which was result of abolition and prohibition of slavery, ethical system creating trust, and scientific Weltanschaung
       
    (3) Roman jurisprudence, which set the basis for judicial system, constitution of the society and rule of law instead of despot’s whim.

    Incidentally, these are the three most crucial leverage points on Donella Meadows’s Twelve Leverage Points’ theorem

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points

    So why did other civilizations failed ?

    Islamic civilization -  Islamic countries never got rid of slavery. They had all the ingredients on the rise, but they did not realize how destructive thing slavery is.

    China -  The Chinese never separated philosophy from mysticism. They were excellent engineers, but they failed to make the connection between philosophy and mathematics, and that of mathematics, science and engineering. (Though this is fast changing now)

    India -  The Indian statehood was one of horrible division - that of castes. It basically paralyzed any evolution. As there was no way to improve your part in this world, why bother to try anything? Such lethargy led into a horrible divided society of filthy rich and dirt poor


    You can not say democracy experience absence of despotic whim as is not correct because in every society there is someone who makes decisions and some who does not and that despotic whim is the decision bearer as for instance in the western democracies where economy has superior position to society where society is regulated by economy rules based system (homoeconomicus) principles of economy established and changed as per their own will makes the despotic whim where some suffer and some thrive.

    You can as per your belief negatively refer to mysticism still you are judging something you know nothing about because how could you explain difference between belief in some mystic form from any other belief like for instance belief that capitalism can sustain itself forever? Nor can the confirmation of one domain say anything about any other as for instance domain of science in part that is verifiable say anything about the mysticism (or negate it)where from for instance  China people can draw inspiration, will-power and endure to make great things including science as by mysticism defines everything that is unknown and not just mumbo jumbo Smile

    But most important of the reason which I value ineffective such reasoning that are mentioned in your post is because they can be referred only to some fixed position in time and than in reference with the others of that new time from which the accuser is than viewed. The essence of the problem is that while it correctly underlies the reasons of the fixed moment in time says nothing about the reasons about why it happened and by my opinion there lies the point in case. For instance while viewing from a fixed in time position reasons why one state failed and from another fixed position why some other state failed soon you will have all the reasons you can think of on your plate still those same reasons are root cause why those states also succeeded in some point of time as all of the mentioned ones where the great ones and than when you gather all reasons in the same basked you have nothing to work with. So I would rather dismiss them all as the principle you work with is wrong as the west now proclaims its end still having evaded all the "traps" of the past while taunting all the "right" values still we see it rise and demise at the time others are still plagued by "traps" of the past in one form or the other mentioned in the article. There is still no ultimate truth. There is no one size fits all system invented by people so only beliefs exist that it is this or that. Regressive religious belief systems stick to only few of thruts that have prove its value throughout history but dogmatic essence of them forbids further inquiry so they are dismissed.
    I think that at some point in time every belief system that where and went on to succeed thought of it as the only one since every other up to that point failed. Aggressive through justice and existentially frightened part of such system will justify its expansion for the obvious reasons while disregarding as unimportant obvious moral dilemma whether to build upon belief system survival even when it is required on the expense of others and if yes how will you justify to the people difference between existentialism of the system and existentialism of the people (in most cases in a way that it is one and the same thing or by means of dependence because they have the best system) and if no risk falling into unknown of which possibility of oblivion gives one initiative by emotion of fear. Now that was that about dismissal part. Now on the affirmative part. I think that as some form of life we have throughout our history experienced only fundamentally different few systems of governance and because we can communicate and express only by means of words which in a sense makes a bottle neck I would rather advise taking numerous continuous small steps forward with lots of testings because in reality there can be infinite number of ways and optimising value of life around one (materiarialism) factor in importance superior to all others or few of them can infuriate Gods and enlight the phrase evil appears as good in the minds of those whom Gods seek to destroy meaning ultimate destruction or some equivalent like revolution that sets the belief system to square one while during the meantime people experience absence of security organized society provides.

    That is why I believe no belief system can give themselves by themselves a right to judge any other belief system much less make aggressive processes toward it as it always leads to war as is fueled by irrational. Prove your belief system by battering time against it and the people will start rising its worth not by exploiting shiny moment in time by proclaiming "lead by example".
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:44 am

    Lets see some facts of 1938 Munich Agreement

    The Munich Agreement was an agreement concluded at Munich on 30 September 1938, by Nazi Germany, the United Kingdom, the French Third Republic, and the Kingdom of Italy. It provided "cession to Germany of the Sudeten German territory" of Czechoslovakia.Most of Europe celebrated the agreement, because it prevented the war Very Happy threatened by Adolf Hitler by allowing Nazi Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland, a region of western Czechoslovakia inhabited by more than 3 million people, mainly German speakers. Hitler announced it was his last territorial claim in Europe, and the choice seemed to be between war and appeasement.

    What Czech government says about western powers agreement on their loss of territory today?

    An emergency meeting of the main European powers – not including Czechoslovakia or the Soviet Union, an ally to both France and Czechoslovakia – took place in Munich, Germany, on 29–30 September 1938. An agreement was quickly reached on Hitler's terms. It was signed by the top leaders of Germany, France, Britain, and Italy. Militarily, the Sudetenland was of strategic importance to Czechoslovakia as most of its border defenses were situated there to protect against a German attack. The agreement between the four powers was signed on the backdrop of a low-intensity undeclared German-Czechoslovak war that had started on 17 September 1938. Meanwhile Poland moved its army units towards its common border with Czechoslovakia after 23 September 1938. Czechoslovakia yielded to French and British diplomatic pressure and agreed on 30 September to give up territory to Germany on Munich terms. Fearing the possible loss of Zaolzie to Germany, Poland issued an ultimatum for the return of Zaolzie, which Czechoslovakia accepted on 1 October.

    what Polish governments says about this?? wasnt aggression their move against Czechoslovakia?

    The Munich Agreement was soon followed by the First Vienna Award on 2 November 1938, separating largely Hungarian inhabited territories in southern Slovakia and southern Subcarpathian Rus' from Czechoslovakia, while Poland also annexed territories from Czechoslovakia in the North. In March 1939, the First Slovak Republic was proclaimed, and shortly by the creation of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia Germany took full control of the remaining Czech parts. As a result, Czechoslovakia had disappeared.

    Czechoslovakia disappeared because of USSR??? Very Happy
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:22 am

    The Soviet High Command & leadership knew that the war with Germany was coming regardless. They planned to liberate Europe after the Nazis defeated every1 else.
    But they thought to wait for the right moment, around 1942-43, to do this, & that's why they were caught unprepared for defense on such a long front from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

    Well if you make that date 1944 then the British and Americans implemented that plan perfectly... and still made the Soviets out to be the bad guys in the end.


    Europe become the major technological, expansive power in the world even when other cultures were much more advanced primarily because of

    The europeans used superior weapons to steal and kill anyone or any thing that got in their way...

    Samuel P Huntington...

    The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [..] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. Westerners often forget this fact; Non-Westerners never do.

    In fact I would correct that and say westerners are blinded by their own propaganda that they are a force for good in the world, while non westerners are reminded every day of the damage the west has done.

    (1) Ethical Monotheism, which set up basis for intra-human interaction, common value basis, set of rules and created trust within society, and led into abolition of slavery. It also laid basis on philosophy and judicial system and rule of law instead of despot’s whim

    Europe created industrialised global slavery before they abolished it.

    (2) Capitalism, which was result of abolition and prohibition of slavery, ethical system creating trust, and scientific Weltanschaung

    Hahahahaha... the west didn't invent barter or trade or commerce... that has been around for thousands of years... the west just copied it as usual.

    Islamic civilization - Islamic countries never got rid of slavery.

    The west never got rid of slavery... they just rebranded it... don't you think it is strange that US companies need to produce their products in countries where there are no labour laws and minimum wage is not even a concept... 5 year old kids working machines making Nike boots for 50 cents a day... boots they will pay over $300 for in the US...

    They had all the ingredients on the rise, but they did not realize how destructive thing slavery is.

    Bollocks... slavery is critical to make modern consumerist America work... and the funny thing is that what will destroy the world is the other 7.5 billion humans consuming resources and energy at the rate the US has been doing for the last 40 years...


    India - The Indian statehood was one of horrible division - that of castes. It basically paralyzed any evolution. As there was no way to improve your part in this world, why bother to try anything? Such lethargy led into a horrible divided society of filthy rich and dirt poor

    Hahahaha... yeah, there is no social division in england... all men are truly equal... year right... but in the US there is racial inequality... which everyone focusses on, but the economic inequality is largely ignored and painted over by the very wealthy because they control the media and the government.

    My western history books told me the Soviets invaded Poland and took half of Polish territory... it didn't mention that the territory it took it took back from the Poles who seized it in 1922 when the Russians were having their civil war.

    Amusing but the tell is always that the victim is the victim and does nothing wrong and the aggressor is the aggressor because they are fundamentally bad.

    Hitler was created by WWI... the Soviet Union was created by WWI... neither Russia nor the Soviets nor Germany started WWI.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:45 pm

    The USSR was one of the all time biggest blowbacks. The Czar was deposed by the active interference of the USA, England, Germany and
    others including the equivalent of today's George Soros. This regime change operation was supposed to carve up Russia into smaller
    and more easily managed pieces through ethnic nationalism identity politics. So we had the concocted state of Ukraine and similar
    pie carving in Central Asia. But instead of falling apart the USSR became a superpower.

    WWII was engineered to destroy the "monster" the west created. The British were very active in Hitler's rise to power as were the
    Americans. America basically shipped over whole factories that Hitler used to build up his army in violation of various treaties.
    America continued to supply oil to the Reich basically throughout the war. Recall how Prescott Bush was a bankster to the Nazis.
    One can't dismiss such details as irrelevant. They are central to explaining the observed events.

    Too bad for the yanquis and their western partners, the USSR did not lose the war. So now we have revisionist sour grapes from the
    precious west, where the fig leaf Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that resulted in the USSR shipping some grain and non-military goods to
    Germany is invoked as the cause of WWII, while the brazen re-arming of Germany and supplying it with oil by the USA and other western
    countries is utterly ignored. Russia grain created WWII, but US military industrial assistance created peace? Big Brother would be
    proud of such newthink.

    In case some smarmy NATO apologist thinks that political "carve up" protocols were more important. Consider Munich in 1938. Chamberlain
    and other western bastions were busy appeasing and enabling Hitler's hunger for territorial expansion. The USSR was calling for a
    policy of containment. So only the USSR was interested in stopping Hitler. And it was Hitler that started WWII in 1939. There was
    no war started by the USSR in 1939. So the revisionist f*cks can't even get the chronology right. The MR pact was a successful
    delaying tactic that bough the USSR nearly two years before the Germany attack. During this time it managed to increase its war
    potential by 40%. But the revisionists would have you believe that Stalin was totally unaware of the impending attack by Hitler.
    Pure, transparent BS fantasy fiction from professional Russia haters.

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:35 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    But most important of the reason which I value ineffective such reasoning that are mentioned in your post is because they can be referred only to some fixed position in time and than in reference with the others of that new time from which the accuser is than viewed.

    Viktor, Europe made progress even during the Dark Ages. Guess why - spread of Christianity. This led to centuries of technological innovation and foundation of Feudalism. They enabled the slow economic recovery.

    But eastern religions like Hindooism for example divided society into castes. And since the caste system was so stringent it never allowed social, economical or technological progress in those countries. Consequently even today more than a thousand years later they still remain backward, unlike Europe.

    Therefore, you may have noticed millions from those third world states like India, Africa migrate to Europe even today but the opposite never happens.


    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... yeah, there is no social division in england... all men are truly equal... year right... but in the US there is racial inequality... which everyone focusses on, but the economic inequality is largely ignored and painted over by the very wealthy because they control the media and the government

    Yes there are social divisions in both UK and US. But those divisions are bare minimum. They do not divide society into castes like Hindooism did.

    Majority of people in US, UK are Whites. They have always ensured tremendous growth for their country. Slavery is a thing of the past. People of color are far better of in the US than they would have been in countries like India, Middle Eastern countries, African countries from where their ancestors came to the US and UK.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:44 pm

    Majority of people in US, UK are Whites. They have always ensured tremendous growth for their country.
    that's largely due to colonialism & imperialism.
    Canada, Australia & NZ r also White majority, but their economies r not impressive. Most of Canadians live along the US border & if not for the trade, abundant natural resources & rich Asian immigrants, they would be like Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada#Overview

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada#Unemployment_rate

    Australia is heavily dependent on trade with Japan, China, South Korea, India and the US; New Zealand has one of the most globalised economies and depends greatly on international trade – mainly with Australia, the European Union, the United States, China, South Korea, Japan and Canada. Many Aussies/Kiwis emigrate/work to/in the USA/Australia & UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia#Overview

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia#Poverty

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand#Unemployment

    Hitler admired the British colonial empire & tried to make peace with the UK & USA by defeating the USSR, but was stabbed in the back.
    Now Germany, which is also mostly White, has the strongest economy in the EU, but only after it benefited from the Marshall Plan & low defense spending.
    So race is not the main factor in economic growth.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:11 am

    Viktor, Europe made progress even during the Dark Ages. Guess why - spread of Christianity. This led to centuries of technological innovation and foundation of Feudalism. They enabled the slow economic recovery.

    Actually religion was at the core of the dark ages and technological stagnation... religion is the opposite of science... and much science was considered evil by many in the church. If you were to go to medieval europe with a cigarette lighter they could call it magic, which as everyone knows is the devils work and burn you to death.

    Religion fought democracy tooth and nail, because that would take away a lot of their power... something they really didn't want.

    The last two centuries technology has rapidly developed... the 2000 years before that... not really so much...

    But eastern religions like Hindooism for example divided society into castes. And since the caste system was so stringent it never allowed social, economical or technological progress in those countries.

    Have you ever seen the US TV series called "The Beverly Hillbillies"?

    In many ways it is dark satire regarding their caste system... based on money and exclusively for whites...

    If you haven't seen it, the first episode the title characters, who are poor working people from some US backwater state find oil on their land and become very very wealthy all of a sudden. When they move to Beverly Hills all the local rich white folk try to find out when their family came to the US... as they have it explained to them... the earlier they came the higher the stature of their family in the rich and famous society... Jedd hears this and naturally states that if that is the case then the Indians must be at the top of the heirarchy... which gets a shocked look and correction from those who wanting to place their family in their social group.

    It is supposed to be about dumb poor country folk trying to make it in the big modern world of the big city... they only get a second look because of course they are rich.

    The Irony is that from outside, the poor stupid country folk make more sense and are much more logical and civilised than the rich white folk making up society and looking down their noses at the country bumpkins.

    Consequently even today more than a thousand years later they still remain backward, unlike Europe.

    That is funny, because there are a lot of central and south american countries that are fully christian and also pretty poor and screwed up to this day, while athiest and communist China seems to be progressing well, and there are plenty of other countries like Singapore and Malaysia that seem to be doing will without religious conversions being required.

    The so called third world and second world have been held down deliberately by the first world, but the first world has lost its way and is in decline.

    Therefore, you may have noticed millions from those third world states like India, Africa migrate to Europe even today but the opposite never happens.

    Never happens... the white people in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, the US, and most of the rest of the world mainly came from Europe... much of the conflict in the world to this day is largely because of decisions made in Paris and London and Brussels and Washington... you are still breaking countries and keeping them poor through murdering candidates that talk about improving countries and helping local workers, and of course fixing elections and starting wars when that does not go as planned. You exploit human weakness and steal resources that keep resource rich countries poor and broken... which is exactly what you want because you can mine valuable materials even in the middle of a civil war because you generally fund both sides to stop them from stopping you raping their country. You even make them pay for the weapons they use, so it is profits all round.

    Yes there are social divisions in both UK and US. But those divisions are bare minimum. They do not divide society into castes like Hindooism did.

    The division of wealth is only getting wider with the large middle class in both countries dying out... most are moving to the poor category... pretty soon the middle class will be gone, and people will start wondering why they pay so many taxes when the rich people and rich companies can hire lawyers and not pay very much tax at all... or even no tax.

    And when the brown stuff hits the fan all those rich companies and rich people will run away leaving the poor people to foot the bill and they can barely survive at the moment...

    Majority of people in US, UK are Whites.

    Are they?

    They have always ensured tremendous growth for their country.

    By being white?

    Slavery is a thing of the past.

    Slavery is minimum wage when the CEO of the company makes millions a year, and the company gives him a car and pays for his "business lunches" and his travel and holidays, and all the extra benefits he and his family get.

    When you can make more money by using money, than by actually working, then you know things are broken... and things are broken.

    People of color are far better of in the US than they would have been in countries like India, Middle Eastern countries, African countries from where their ancestors came to the US and UK.

    Yeah, that is because along with stealing people from those countries they also stole their most valuable resources and used them like slave colonies and pretty much still do to this day... of course people from those countries want to live in the west... the west has all their stuff.

    So race is not the main factor in economic growth.

    Economic growth for Russia was pretty solid until the west actively went out of its way to damage them economically. Chinas growth to its current position is largely due to the west investing in factories and production in China to utilise local cheap manpower and lax labour laws, and a society where trouble makers can be made to disappear without problems... you might see a change over the next few years because the dumb censored in the west have recognised the danger... far too late of course to stop it, but are even asking Russia to help them corner China.

    Of course they also asked Russia to impose sanctions against North Korea... but as Russia said those are the same sanctions the US has on Russia and Iran, so why help the US and impose sanctions on NK for the US?

    They will raise the same middle finger to the US with regard to sanctions against China, and both China and Russia will benefit from cutting big US companies out of their product lineage...

    China will benefit from Russian technology and equipment and know how, and Russia will benefit from Chinese technology and equipment and know how.

    The racist europeans and their even more racist american masters can sulk and feel the isolation of their actions of 3-4 centuries of bludging and smothering all potential rivals.

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