Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Su-27: News

    franco
    franco

    Posts : 4080
    Points : 4110
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  franco Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:10 pm

    Kaliningrad can be covered from fighters in Russia. The first thing that happens in any attack would be Russia securing the air space over the Baltic states. The airfields in Kaliningrad would be extremely vulnerable to ALCM's so that has to considered also.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:25 pm

    Baltics would be annexed the first day.

    Nato occupying Kaliningrad means Russia launching some tactical nuks on German based US bases.

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 577
    Points : 577
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  owais.usmani Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:45 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Nato occupying Kaliningrad means Russia launching some tactical nuks on German based US bases.

    This would be followed by multiple strategic nukes over Moscow. Which in turn would be followed by multiple strategic nukes over Washington.

    Once nukes start flying, everything non nuclear becomes irrelevant.

    My point was to ensure defense of Kaliningrad without pushing the nuclear button by deploying your best possible assets over there.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:53 pm

    No, US won't start a full nuclear war over Kaliningrad.

    Russia will launch a limited attack with nuks on military targets and US will leave and reach a peace agreement.

    Anyway US won't attack first Kaliningrad anyday soon. It's recognized as Russia by everyone.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 577
    Points : 577
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  owais.usmani Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:57 pm

    Isos wrote:No, US won't start a full nuclear war over Kaliningrad.
    Any use of nukes by Russia under any pretext, even for liberating its own territory illegally occupied, is guaranteed to get a nuclear response. That's how the brains in Washington work.

    Isos wrote: Russia will launch a limited attack with nuks on military targets and US will leave and reach a peace agreement.
     lol1  lol1  lol1

    Like I said above, that is not how US military mind thinks and works.

    Isos wrote:Anyway US won't attack first Kaliningrad anyday soon. It's recognized as Russia by everyone.
    If not for Russian nukes US would have attacked every single inch of Russian territory long time ago, recognized or not recognized. Their dream come true scenario would be to break Russia into a hundred small states each controlled by one of their puppets, much like the EU had been for most of its existence. They have been drooling over the trillions of dollars of Russian natural resources for a long long time.

    Coming back to my point, Russia should ensure that the defense of Kaliningrad is so strong that it can hold off on its own for several days without much reinforcements from the mainland. The entire enclave needs to be saturated with latest fighters, air defense units and coastal defense missile batteries, in addition to many more lethal ships in Baltiysk. If the other side wants to push nuclear button and invoke MAD its their choice but for Russia avoiding nuclear exchange and still be able to defend Kaliningrad from whatever NATO can throw at it should be top priority.

    Backman likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:10 pm

    No. US are capitalists. They will never let their mainland be destroyed for territories that have no real interests for them.

    They won't start a nuclear war for Kaliningrad or even the baltics.

    They didn't even start a war or even answered when Iran bombed their base and you think they will respond to a tactical nuk attack for kaliningrad with a full nuclear war against Russia.  

    Get real. You clearly don't understand how people in Washington think. They attack only when they are 100% sure to win, something that can't be the case against Russia or even China.

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 577
    Points : 577
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  owais.usmani Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:35 pm

    Isos wrote:No. US are capitalists. They will never let their mainland be destroyed for territories that have no real interests for them.

    They won't start a nuclear war for Kaliningrad or even the baltics.

    They didn't even start a war or even answered when Iran bombed their base and you think they will respond to a tactical nuk attack for kaliningrad with a full nuclear war against Russia.  

    Get real. You clearly don't understand how people in Washington think. They attack only when they are 100% sure to win, something that can't be the case against Russia or even China.

    Use of nuclear weapons by Russia or US against each other in any form anywhere on the planet will instantly invoke MAD. This had been the case throughout the entire cold war and this is very much the case today.

    The current actions by NATO (e.g. bombers in Norway) are clearly indication of them encircling Kaliningrad which they see as Russia's weakest spot. If I would be a NATO commander, I would be planning to one day pounce and occupy Kaliningrad with maximum offensive force in shortest possible time and then put the condition of Russia abandoning Crimea peninsula for NATO withdrawal. They would want to leave Russia with only 2 options, either surrender Crimea to save Kaliningrad or push the nuclear button, in which case both Russia and NATO get destroyed.

    A rock solid defense of Kaliningrad can hopefully prevent Russia with having such dilemma.

    Backman likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:02 pm

    Cold war situation was totally different.

    Russia has no plan to expend communism today. That was a direct threat to capitalism but not anymore. Like I said as long as you don't threat their system they won't do anything.

    In your scenario it's NATO that attacks and occupy Kaliningrad with an overwhelming force so Russia has the right to use tactical nuks and US won't answer because they won't risk their system, their big cities and mainland iver kaliningrad. Stop your bullshit.

    They have 3 bombers in Norway which isn't a threat to Russia. They can be destroyed in 2 hours with Oniks launched from a Yasen sub. It's just a propaganda move.

    If I would be a NATO commander, I would be planning to one day pounce and occupy Kaliningrad with maximum offensive force in shortest possible time and then put the condition of Russia abandoning Crimea peninsula for NATO withdrawal.

    That would first need to be agreed by all the countries which would take some months. None of them would say yes to attack Russia.

    Even if they say yes Russia will be quicker to capture baltic states and connect kaliningrad.

    Nato depends on US to airlift its forces. None of the other countries has big airlifter or huge amount of soldiers to send there. And US would need 3 months to bring a big amount of the army there.

    Russia would have bemy the time already sized Poland with the baltics and put nuclear Iskanders as a warning on the German border. Strategic targets like oil reserves and HQ would have been kalibrated, carriers attacked by kh-32 and kinzhal, important bridges destroyed...

    Nato isn't ready to fight Russia. That's a fact.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    Backman
    Backman

    Posts : 629
    Points : 637
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Backman Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:10 pm

    Isos wrote:No. US are capitalists. They will never let their mainland be destroyed for territories that have no real interests for them.

    They won't start a nuclear war for Kaliningrad or even the baltics.

    They didn't even start a war or even answered when Iran bombed their base and you think they will respond to a tactical nuk attack for kaliningrad with a full nuclear war against Russia.  

    Get real. You clearly don't understand how people in Washington think. They attack only when they are 100% sure to win, something that can't be the case against Russia or even China.

    They are imperialists first and foremost. We are all crony capitalists now.

    But I disagree with your point. The US has no problem waltzing over Russia's national security red lines. We seen that in Ukraine in 2014. Lavrov personally told his counterparts in 2007-2008 and on , that if the US made a move on Ukraine , there would be war. And there has been a war in Europe ever since.

    There is nothing more sensitive to Russian national security than Ukraine and Belarus. Yet the US is poking around everywhere it can.

    They have no problem putting war time level sanctions on Russia. Japan went to war in ww2 over this level of sanctions.

    They have no problem accusing China of genocide. In national security speak , accusations of genocide are as bold of an accusation you can make. They openly renounced the one China policy. And then sent diplomats to Taiwan. They had armed gangs of thugs ransacking Hong Kong for 8 months

    The US is insane. The most provocative and dangerous imperial power of them all.

    Hole and owais.usmani like this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:55 pm

    Ukrainian went against the government by themselves. US just put some oil on the fire.

    Nuk attack isn't a red line. One thing I'm sure is that westerns won't die for something they consider as shithole places.

    Finty likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2430
    Points : 2430
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:42 pm

    Isos wrote:One thing I'm sure is that westerns won't die for something they consider as shithole places.

    The Uh'murikkkan Deep State is quite prepared to fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian.  That much should be readily apparent to anyone.

    Will they be so keen if they must pay the butchers bill themselves?  hmm.... not so much. Twisted Evil

    BTW I think we're getting a little OT Laughing
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7364
    Points : 7350
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Isos Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:47 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:One thing I'm sure is that westerns won't die for something they consider as shithole places.

    The Uh'murikkkan Deep State is quite prepared to fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian.  That much should be readily apparent to anyone.

    Will they be so keen if they must pay the butchers bill themselves?  hmm.... not so much.  Twisted Evil

    BTW I think we're getting a little OT  Laughing

    Well the russian upgraded su-27 are enough to fully control Ukraine. Then it will be "bomb here", "bomb there". Total air dominance means you loose the war and then it's a shooting range for pilots against anything they see.

    Bombs doesn't take into consideration your motivation they just explode.

    I doubt they are dumb that much to fight against an overwhelming power. The deap state's rich people aren't going to loose their money and situation to support some fanatics they will just agree with Russians to stop.

    (We are back in the topic ^^).
    Backman
    Backman

    Posts : 629
    Points : 637
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Backman Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:06 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:One thing I'm sure is that westerns won't die for something they consider as shithole places.

    The Uh'murikkkan Deep State is quite prepared to fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian.  That much should be readily apparent to anyone.

    Will they be so keen if they must pay the butchers bill themselves?  hmm.... not so much.  Twisted Evil

    BTW I think we're getting a little OT  Laughing

    There has already been fatalities in the US military since the US takeover of Ukraine. To get back on topic, a US airforce member was killed joy riding in a Ukrainian su 27. Surprised
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28753
    Points : 29283
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:40 am

    If I would be a NATO commander, I would be planning to one day pounce and occupy Kaliningrad with maximum offensive force in shortest possible time and then put the condition of Russia abandoning Crimea peninsula for NATO withdrawal.

    HATO couldn't take Kaliningrad in a month let alone a day... but how does that logic even work... if you think you can get the Crimea why not attack the Crimea?

    When was the last time a military force seized one territory they didn't want so they could exchange it for a territory the enemy held that it did want.

    That is just silly.

    At the end of the day HATO wouldn't be able to take Kaliningrad, and even if they could can you imagine the fun Russian special forces would have as a guerilla force ambushing western divisions with modern ATGMs and MANPADS etc etc.... not to mention their transformation in the use of sniper rifles and long range shooting... it would be like Napoleon in Russia except it wont be father winter that leads to the costly defeat and rout... it will be Father Kalashnikov and Father Orsis...

    Russia could immediately declare a no fly zone over the entire area and just shoot anything that flys down... which on its own will cripple HATO... mobile artillery will then demolish any HATO advance into the territory.

    It would be easier for HATO to attack Crimea, which is to say it would make more sense for them to be humiliated getting defeated by Crimean forces than by the forces in Kaliningrad.

    Any armoured force forming up can simply be nuked... any dispersed armoured force would be defeated by local forces in small pieces.

    Any western use of nukes in the Kaliningrad region couldn't help but destroy the territory they are trying to capture and by killing local civilians there will be zero chance of being welcomed as liberators.

    An upgraded Su-27 with modern AAMs operating within an IADS with modern SAMs and sensors and equipment is fine for basing so far forward.

    Even an enormous cruise missile attack could be countered and stopped with the systems they have there now and the launch positions those cruise missiles came from and the aircraft that launched those missiles become fair game for return fire... and I think that on its own would be enough.

    Honestly I really don't think HATO could plan and execute such an attack without thousands of sensible and honest and rational members of HATO thinking this is no what they signed up for and walking away... perhaps even talking to reporters or on the internet revealing what is happening which would likely stop the attack before it starts.

    slasher likes this post

    Finty
    Finty

    Posts : 95
    Points : 95
    Join date : 2021-02-10
    Location : Great Britain

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Kaliningrad Su-27SM3 Flankers: The Russian Fighter Unit NATO Hates the Most

    Post  Finty Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:15 am

    https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/kaliningrad-su-27sm3-flankers-the-russian-fighter-unit-nato-hates-the-most


    The Russian territory of Kaliningrad is one of the most heavily militarised regions of the country, and lies on the Baltic Sea between Poland and Lithuania. It is separated from the Russian mainland by the lands of NATO member states Lithuania and Latvia, and has no land border with any other Russian regions leaving the territory potentially vulnerable to Western attacks in the event of a major war. Kaliningrad serves as a staging ground allowing Russian Iskander tactical ballistic missiles and long range air defence systems such as the S-400 to cover targets deeper into Europe with their range, and is defended by some of the country’s most capable weapons systems including new motorised rifle, artillery and tank regiments which were deployed there in December 2020. Reinforcements in December included T-72B3M battle tanks — one of the latest designs in the country’s inventory — as well as Su-30SM fighter jets. Kaliningrad also serves as the headquarters of the Russian Baltic Fleet, and is heavily defended by land based P-800 long range anti ship cruise missile systems which provide coverage over much of the Baltic Sea. One of the most prolific assets deployed in Kaliningrad, however, has been a squadron of Su-27 heavyweight air superiority fighters which have been cause for considerable trouble for NATO over several years.


    The Su-27 Flanker first entered service in the Soviet Air Force in 1985, and after U.S. personnel gained access to a number of airframes after the Cold War American assessments showed the fighter to be more capable than the U.S. Air Force’s own prime fighter the F-15 Eagle. Despite being a high end heavyweight design, the kind of expensive aircraft usually fielded in small numbers for special roles, the Su-27 was for many years the most widely used class of combat jet in the Russian military with over 250 in service. Over 150 of the aircraft remain in service today. Unlike its successor the Su-30, which was design for a well rounded performance including an ability to perform anti shipping and strike roles, the Su-27 was designed purely for air to air combat with the limited air to ground capabilities added to later variants being an afterthought. The Flanker can accommodate some of the largest radars ever integrated onto a fighter, and have the range, manoeuvrability and firepower to pose a serious threat to aircraft very far from the airfields that host them. The fighters initially deployed R-27 air to air missiles for long range engagements, which were the most capable missiles of their kind integrated onto fighter sized aircraft at the time but have since been superseded by the R-77 missile that benefits from active radar guidance and ‘fire and forget’ capabilities.

    While exact details on the Su-27 contingent in Kaliningrad remain scarce a portion of Su-27s deployed are of the Su-27SM3 variant, which are the most capable variant ever developed. Only around two dozen Su-27SM3 aircraft are though to be in service in the entire Russian Air Force, and the advanced jets saw a brief combat deployment to Syria in late 2015 as the first Russian dedicated air superiority fighter in the theatre. The fighters were produced shortly before production lines for the Su-27 were permanently closed in favour of production of their successor the Su-35, and used the same Irbis-E radar as the Su-35. The Irbis-E provides overwhelmingly superior situational awareness relative to older Su-27 variants, and can track up to 30 airborne targets simultaneously and engage up to eight. The radar allows the Su-27SM3 to detect medium sized fighters at ranges of over 400 kilometres, and can track stealth fighters with lower radar cross sections at ranges of little over 80km. Beyond a new radar, the fighters benefit from a reinforced airframe allowing them to carry three more tons of armaments, and additional hardpoints expanding their maximum missile payload from eight to twelve - double that of the American F-16 and triple that of the F-35. The fighters also benefit from more fuel efficient AL-31F-M1 engines for an increased range and flight performance, and from a comprehensively modernised full glass cockpit with the thirteen Cold War era arrow indicators discarded in favour of four multifunctional displays. A new radio complex was also integrated to facilitate more secure communications, and changes to the design also reduced maintenance requirements. The Su-27SM3 can thus be considered a ‘4+ generation’ fighter with capabilities close to those of the more well known Su-35, and the aircraft’s deployment to guard Kaliningrad is a strong sign of the Russian military’s faith in its capabilities.

    Deployment to a territory surrounded by NATO member states has meant that Su-27s based in Kaliningrad, which when identified by variant have often been Su-27SM3s, have often intercepted or otherwise seen non-kinetic clashes with Western aircraft. Such incidents have been particularly frequent since relations between Russia and the Western world deteriorated following the Ukraine crisis in 2014. A notable example was on October 3, 2014, when a Su-27 intercepted a Swedish Air Force Gulfstream spy plane and flew around 30 feet away from it while displaying an intimidating arsenal of air to air missiles. Several similar incidents occurred over the following years. On June 9, 2017, when a drill by American B-1B, B-2 and B-52H heavy bombers over the Baltic Sea was being photographed, the bombers were closely shadowed by a Su-27 which appeared in several of the pictures. Later that month Su-27s intervened aggressively against Polish F-16 fighters, after the F-16s had themselves aggressively intercepted the transport of Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu who was at the time flying to Kaliningrad.

    The following month a U.S. Air Force RC-135 surveillance aircraft thought to have been monitoring electronic signals in Kaliningrad was intercepted by a sizeable Su-27 unit including at least three Su-27SM3s. The American jet quickly made an unscheduled turn into friendly Swedish airspace. The Su-27’s often unusually aggressive actions have send a strong signal regarding Russia’s willingness to guard its small Baltic enclave and quickly respond to any potential threat, and are likely intended to send a strong signal to NATO to this effect. The fact that Su-27s at Kaliningrad are deployed beyond the Russian mainland and provide the Russian Air Force with a deeper reach into NATO territory makes them arguably the most troublesome fighter unit faced by the Western alliance.

    Despite their advanced capabilities, the Su-27s in Kaliningrad have shown no signs of widely deploying either R-77 or the newer K-77 or R-37M active radar guided air to air missiles and have continued to rely on older R-27s which do not have ‘fire and forget’ capabilities and can only engage a more limited number of targets simultaneously. This means there is still room to improve the capabilities of the Kaliningrad Flankers without needing to replace them with a new fighter class, with the R-37M in particular providing the ability to engage aircraft at over triple the range of the R-27 currently in use - at 400km away. Although many older Su-27 variants cannot deploy newer missile classes, the Su-27SM3's use of the Irbis-E radar and Su-35-style avionics makes it compatible with all the latest air to air missile classes.

    How long the Su-27 will continue to be deployed to Kaliningrad will likely depend on the state of relations between Russia and NATO and the kind of assets deployed by the U.S. to the region. While the Su-27SM3 was Russia’s most capable fighter in terms of air to air combat performance when it entered service, the newer Su-35, Su-57 and the upcoming Su-30SM2 are overall be more capable today and all could be candidates to eventually replace it likely before the end of the decade. The possibility of upgrading Su-27s with AL-41 engines from the Su-35, which would drastically increase their flight performances and improve their ranges, has also been raised multiple times with the Kaliningrad Flankers likely to be leading candidates for such an investment within the Su-27 fleet. It remains to be seen whether the much newer Su-30SM fighters deployed to reinforce Kaliningrad in late 2020 will be deployed alongside Su-27s to intercept Western aircraft and patrol the Baltics, or whether they will be used more conservatively.

    dino00 likes this post


    Sponsored content

    Su-27: News - Page 13 Empty Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:29 pm