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Russia - Algeria military contracts

mack8

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Post n°26

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

mack8 on Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:29 pm

Yep, saw the news about the subs above. Very Happy

Regarding Su-30MKA/35, as the article last year suggests, they were interested in the option for additional Su-30MKAs (one or two squadrons, up to 28) but this time based on the russian SM, as the performance of MKA is sufficiently close (even if not equal) to that of Su-35 to not justify the maintenance penalty (after all Su-35 is fairly different from Su-30MKA/SM and it has in some respects different maintenance requirements, not to mention it's more A-A orientated role, while MKA is a more suitable multirole platform by virtue of it's tow seats, imo)

TR1

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Post n°27

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:33 am

Wow, big stuff.

Hard to appreciate it with all the nonsense going on in Russia and Ukraine.

One of Russia's biggest partners of the past 10 years militarily. Hope they get treated as such.

TR1

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Post n°28

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:03 am

Also, curious if the birds get the VK-2500...hopefully Klimov is on top of its plans to indigenize the engine.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/725984.html

In 2013 they made the first ten....even though the plan was for 50.

Viktor

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Post n°29

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Viktor on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:14 am

Im more curious in what more can we expect to find out in the coming days. I was expecting news about new contracts right after Algerian diplomats landed on Russian soil but there was

none. Than shamefuly news about 6 Mi-26T2 surfaced and right after 2.7 bin $ contract revealed itself. But still they could be much more going on in there.

Viktor

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Post n°30

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Viktor on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:17 am

Interesting, I did not know about this!

In 2011 it became known that the Algerian side acquired additional batch of T-90SA of 120 machines.

Interesting article as well about Algerian view on T-90 in comparison with India

LINK

and

And last year, it became known procurement plans another 180 machines, however, according to some, it is already a more advanced version of T-90cm

Viktor

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Post n°31

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Viktor on Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:18 pm

Nice article thumbsup

S-300 batteries in Algeria (updated)

472-kbh

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Post n°32

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

472-kbh on Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:08 am

Viktor wrote:WoW nice going Algeria

- 6 Mi-26T2
- 42 Mi-28N
- modernization of 39 Mi-8AMTSh

Total contract value = 2.7 bin $

Is it likely that the Algerian Contract for helicopters would be jeopardized as a consequence of the ongoing Ukrainian crisis ?

TR1

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Post n°33

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:47 am

The engines, are from Ukraine, so yeah it is a potential problem.
Unless Russia drives into East Ukraine however I don't see Motor-Sich wanting any delays whatsoever.
This is their livelyhood.

Indian Flanker

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Post n°34

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:30 am

mack8 wrote:And apparently that's not all, i found the original article where all this info is coming from, and they also talk about possibly another order for Su-30, but this time, an export derivative of the Su-30SM, rather than the original MKA. The SM adds among other things, improved radar, RVV-MD and RVV-SD missiles, and allegedly, more powerful engines according to rumours ( 13,500-14,000kgf Izd. 99SM ?), and imo even a western MAWS system like on MKM is possible, so it will be significantly improved in capability. And not only that but it appears the plans are to have close to 100 (!) Su-30s in service or on order by 2016! Are we looking at 24-48 Su-32 and at least 48 Su-30MKA2 ?!
http://secret-difa3.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/gaid-salah-moscou-pour-finaliser-le.html

So it is true that Su-30SM is more powerful than Su-30MKI/M/A?

If it is true then, it would make this bird a even fierce fiend of the sky than what it is anyway!

TR1

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Post n°35

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:03 am

Well, it does not have better engines. They are exactly the same.

The radar is improved from original Bars, but I am pretty sure MKIs today are getting the same set, so no advantage there either.

So far the new missiles have not been delivered, and I don't see why the MKI could not use them with a minor modification.

I don't see any MAWS yet on the SM, and that is something I am really confused by actually.

mutantsushi

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Post n°36

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

mutantsushi on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:08 am

TR1 wrote:The engines, are from Ukraine, so yeah it is a potential problem. Unless Russia drives into East Ukraine however I don't see Motor-Sich wanting any delays whatsoever. This is their livelyhood.

Kiev can always directly export the engines to the end customer, right? I'm sure the contract isn't structured that way, but I don't think Russia cares enough to be a stickler about such a thing that doesn't really matter to them. Ukraine (or SE Ukraine where Motor-Sich is located) may very well be resolved and cooperative with Russia in time for this delivery anyways.

TR1

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Post n°37

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:12 am

They have never exported engines like that. Nobody ships engines and the chopper separately, it would be a mess.

Motor-Sich has no interest in seeing its main income source disrupted, so I imagine they would let Kiev know any delays would be bad. Plus, they can say Mi-17s and Mi-26s are just civilian birds Wink

472-kbh

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Post n°38

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

472-kbh on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:23 pm

Is it reasonable to assume that Russia would have already secured a batch of engines (sold to Russia) before the crisis ?

TR1

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Post n°39

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:28 pm

472-kbh wrote:Is it reasonable to assume that Russia would have already secured a batch of engines (sold to Russia) before the crisis ?

Not sure.
They signed a multi-year deal with Motor-Sich, and given how new the contract with Algeria is, I highly doubt the engines are stockpiled.
However the Rada is talking about ending military cooperation, I am not sure if that means commercial deals (as opposed to joint programs) like Motor-Sich's with Russian Helicopters.

Russia has an ally here in Motor-Sich itself.
Also Ukraine has to know if they damage Russia's exports with such a move, Russia will be tempted to further retaliate economically. So it would not just be the gutting of Ukranian military exports, but potentially even more serious consequences.

They can't be that stupid.

472-kbh

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Post n°40

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

472-kbh on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:41 pm

Thank you for the answers, but please permit me to insist on Ukrainian suspension of military cooperation with Russia. If we believe an internet source (I'm still new to have a right to post a link) The Military cooperation is suspended from Ukrainian side (declaration made by Ukrainian First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema)

and in the same article, an analyst estimates that : " …. the pause will cause 2 billion dollars' worth of damage to the Russian side, which would be unable to perform military-technical contracts with third countries without the Ukraine-made components of military goods … "

2B$ seems to be very close to the amount on the Algerian helicopters deal.

Viktor

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Post n°41

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Viktor on Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:57 am

472-kbh wrote:Thank you for the answers, but please permit me to insist on Ukrainian suspension of military cooperation with Russia. If we believe an internet source (I'm still new to have a right to post a link) The Military cooperation is suspended from Ukrainian side (declaration made by Ukrainian First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema)

Military cooperation is still not suspended. First vice-premier of Ukraine Vitaly Yarema announced intentionto do so.

Anyway Russia has ordes for helicopter engines worth 1.2 bin $ (for the next 5 years) and Ukraine needs that money much more than penalty for breaking up contract.

But in worst case scenarion not all is black either because you have JSC Klimov which produced helicopter engines

"JSC" Klimov - Helicopter program

For some time now Russia has been runing active program of replacement Ukranian helicopter engines

Ukraine will lose control of the Russian helicopter industry

because of what in the near future all Russian produced helicopter will have Russian produced engines. Even now all Russian helicopters have only Russian (Klimov) produced engines

- VK-2500.

GarryB

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Post n°42

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

GarryB on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:17 am

They have never exported engines like that. Nobody ships engines and the chopper separately, it would be a mess.

I would say they haven't done things like that before because they have not had to.

They can't be that stupid.

Of course they can.

The likely result will be a delay in contracts made... and of course the smartest thing the Russians can do is build new engines for new contracts and in contracts where they were supposed to use Ukrainian engines they can sue Motor Sich for damages and breach of contract... The result will likely be no more Motor Sich.

Klimov could then ask Motor Sich workers if they want to continue working on aircraft engines... in Russia.

There will likely be a gap where there is a shortage of engines, but in the end the Russians will redirect funds to speed up local production and the gap will be filled.

The lack of previous progress can easily be explained... there was no rush when engines could be made at MS for less than a new factory in Russia could make them.

This of course will immediately kill all military purchases from the Ukraine including Antonov An-70 and other purchases.

TR1

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Post n°43

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:27 am

Viktor wrote:

472-kbh wrote:Thank you for the answers, but please permit me to insist on Ukrainian suspension of military cooperation with Russia. If we believe an internet source (I'm still new to have a right to post a link) The Military cooperation is suspended from Ukrainian side (declaration made by Ukrainian First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Yarema)

Military cooperation is still not suspended. First vice-premier of Ukraine Vitaly Yarema announced intentionto do so.

Anyway Russia has ordes for helicopter engines worth 1.2 bin $ (for the next 5 years) and Ukraine needs that money much more than penalty for breaking up contract.

But in worst case scenarion not all is black either because you have JSC Klimov which produced helicopter engines

"JSC" Klimov - Helicopter program

For some time now Russia has been runing active program of replacement Ukranian helicopter engines

Ukraine will lose control of the Russian helicopter industry

because of what in the near future all Russian produced helicopter will have Russian produced engines. Even now all Russian helicopters have only Russian (Klimov) produced engines

- VK-2500.

Wait, wait.
All Russian helicopters have Klimov engines?

Viktor put down the pipe man Very Happy

Only now have the Ka-52 and Mi-28 have been converted to Russian engines. And even for those alone is it dubious if Klimov output can cover domestic and export orders- though that is a matter of time, no serious obstacle.
Mi-8s/17s - Ukraine.
Mi-26- Ukraine.
Mi-35- Ukraine.

Many of the engines "made in Russia" are shipped from Ukraine and slapped with a "Klimov" sticker.
Not a big issue with planes, only the Antonovs really use Ukranian parts and engines.
With helicopters though, whole nother issue.

Werewolf

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Post n°44

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Werewolf on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:08 am

Mi-24VM2 (Mi-35M), Mi-8MT/AMTsch/17s, Mi-28 and Ka-50/52/32 all use since a few years VK-2500 engines, so i don't know whats the problem.

http://klimov.ru/en/production/helicopter/VK-2500/

Its the standard helicopter engines since 2008 for attack helicopters and mi-8s and similiar class helicopters.

Viktor

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Post n°45

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

Viktor on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:28 am

As if they knew Very Happy

UEC begins testing VK-2500, the first helicopter engine from Russian parts

18.12.2012

On December 18, 2012, at Shuvalovo at the production facility of Klimov, a United Engine Corporation subsidiary, the company began testing VK-2500 helicopter engine, the first to be built entirely of Russian parts.

As part of implementation of the development strategy for the Russian aviation industry, in 2013 Klimov plans to launch 50 VK-2500 engines made from Russian parts, and by 2015 the production volume will increase to 500 per year.

so no delays ...

TR1

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Post n°46

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:41 am

Werewolf wrote:Mi-24VM2 (Mi-35M), Mi-8MT/AMTsch/17s, Mi-28 and Ka-50/52/32 all use since a few years VK-2500 engines, so i don't know whats the problem.

http://klimov.ru/en/production/helicopter/VK-2500/

Its the standard helicopter engines since 2008 for attack helicopters and mi-8s and similiar class helicopters.

No, they only JUST started using Russian VK-2500s.
Klimov made ONLY TEN all-Russian VK-2500s in 2013. How in gods name do you think they provided enough engines for all that?
Even part-Russian VK-2500s only started being used for the new attack helos only recently.

The rest - TV3-117 for the most part.

They can announce all they want, that is the reality on the factory floor.
There are people who work at Klimov who have posted on BMPD, they described well how Russian "100% Russian Klimov" engines really were and are.

TR1

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Post n°47

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:43 am

Viktor wrote:As if they knew

UEC begins testing VK-2500, the first helicopter engine from Russian parts

18.12.2012

On December 18, 2012, at Shuvalovo at the production facility of Klimov, a United Engine Corporation subsidiary, the company began testing VK-2500 helicopter engine, the first to be built entirely of Russian parts.

As part of implementation of the development strategy for the Russian aviation industry, in 2013 Klimov plans to launch 50 VK-2500 engines made from Russian parts, and by 2015 the production volume will increase to 500 per year.

so no delays ...

Yep and they fumbled.
2013- only 10 all-Russian VK-2500s!

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/725984.html

In 2012 Motor-Sich delivered over 450 TV3/VK-2500 engines or almost complete engines to Russia.
There is no replacement for that in Russia today, simply a fact.

TheArmenian

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Post n°48

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TheArmenian on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:00 am

TR1 wrote:

Wait, wait.
All Russian helicopters have Klimov engines?

Viktor put down the pipe man

Only now have the Ka-52 and Mi-28 have been converted to Russian engines. And even for those alone is it dubious if Klimov output can cover domestic and export orders- though that is a matter of time, no serious obstacle.
Mi-8s/17s - Ukraine.
Mi-26- Ukraine.
Mi-35- Ukraine.

Many of the engines "made in Russia" are shipped from Ukraine and slapped with a "Klimov" sticker.
Not a big issue with planes, only the Antonovs really use Ukranian parts and engines.
With helicopters though, whole nother issue.

Doesn't the engines of the Yak-130 use Ukrainian engines?

TR1

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Post n°49

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TR1 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:54 am

TheArmenian wrote:

TR1 wrote:

Wait, wait.
All Russian helicopters have Klimov engines?

Viktor put down the pipe man

Only now have the Ka-52 and Mi-28 have been converted to Russian engines. And even for those alone is it dubious if Klimov output can cover domestic and export orders- though that is a matter of time, no serious obstacle.
Mi-8s/17s - Ukraine.
Mi-26- Ukraine.
Mi-35- Ukraine.

Many of the engines "made in Russia" are shipped from Ukraine and slapped with a "Klimov" sticker.
Not a big issue with planes, only the Antonovs really use Ukranian parts and engines.
With helicopters though, whole nother issue.

Doesn't the engines of the Yak-130 use Ukrainian engines?

Thought they make them @ Saluyt?

TheArmenian

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Post n°50

Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

TheArmenian on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:31 am

Indeed. I just checked. They are Motor-Sich designed , but manufactured by Salyut in Russia.
Don't know if there are Ukrainian made components in it.

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Russia - Algeria military contracts