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74 posters

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:19 pm

    They should have enough prototypes to spread the other tests until this one gets fixed.

    Actually this could be the greatest test of all... how to repair a 5th gen fighter... that wasn't likely part of the schedule, but it would be rather useful to look into.

    Better to have thorough tests than to complete testing and put the plane into service and have its tail fall off like the F-111, or have it suffocate its pilots like the F-22...
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    Post  Cyberspec Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:34 am

    Nice pic
    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 30 0_e3caf_cb9e6d0_orig
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    Post  Mike E Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:36 am

    That isn't a "nice pic", it is a great pic!!! - Might have to become my new background picture...
    avatar
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    Post  Austin Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:26 am

    Take Off Magazine Latest Issue has updates on T-50 Flight test program and Radar Program ( pg 33 , 34 )  ( pdf download )

    http://en.take-off.ru/index.php/component/content/article/45/431
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    Post  Stealthflanker Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:06 pm

    Austin wrote:Take Off Magazine Latest Issue has updates on T-50 Flight test program and Radar Program ( pg 33 , 34 )  ( pdf download )

    http://en.take-off.ru/index.php/component/content/article/45/431

    Thanks a lot. hmm found an interesting remarks :


    At Phase I, the Bars was supposed to be refined while retaining its passive electronically scanned array through
    extending its range, enhancing its resolution and ECM immunity and adapting it to advanced airborne weapons. Phase II was
    expected to replace the Bars’s antenna with the AESA
    . Apparently, it makes sense to do so after the AESA radar designed for the PMI
    fighter has been tested, so that the lessons learnt are put to use. I presume that other operators of the fighter family – Malaysia
    and Algeria – will show interest in such modernisation too, just as India did.

    This seems to be what exactly Raytheon is doing with APG-63V2 and V3 (Now it called APG-82)
    I expect some nice stuff Very Happy
    Hannibal Barca
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:13 pm

    Austin wrote:Take Off Magazine Latest Issue has updates on T-50 Flight test program and Radar Program ( pg 33 , 34 )  ( pdf download )

    http://en.take-off.ru/index.php/component/content/article/45/431

    I was looking the infrastructure and I do know a thing or two about industrial production.
    The speed of improvement is staggering !
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Clues

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:22 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Austin wrote:Take Off Magazine Latest Issue has updates on T-50 Flight test program and Radar Program ( pg 33 , 34 )  ( pdf download )

    http://en.take-off.ru/index.php/component/content/article/45/431

    I was looking the infrastructure and I do know a thing or two about industrial production.
    The speed of improvement is staggering !

    Hannibal,

    Your statement is one of the clues that I was talking about, but the way to look at this is that when things look "staggering", there is a reason for them.
    RTN
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    Post  RTN Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:31 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    I was looking the infrastructure and I do know a thing or two about industrial production.
    The speed of improvement is staggering !

    Russia has been unable to match the West’s technological edge in developing superalloys using rare-earth materials & its turbofans therefore have far lower TTSLs than their Western counterparts & this applies to both the AL-31FP & RD-33-3/RD-33MK.

    That’s precisely why even China has adopted its homegrown WS-10B turbofan for its J-11B & J-15 heavy-MRCAs.
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:41 pm

    Yeah might be but what this has to do with my point and by the way define "west". The master US or the occupied puppets who run with 60% unemployment?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:59 am

    Russia has been unable to match the West’s technological edge in developing superalloys using rare-earth materials & its turbofans therefore have far lower TTSLs than their Western counterparts

    Why on earth would Russia need to match the west in jet engine production technology?

    A simple case in point is the Il-76's D30 engine... the original cost $800,000, but the PS90A upgrade cost $6 million. The newer engine is more powerful and more fuel efficient but at the end of the day an Il-76 uses 4 engines so the difference in cost of .8 x 4 = 3.2 million dollars and 6 x 4 = 24 million dollars for engines and all of a sudden the engine was available but no one wanted to buy it because it increased the cost of the aircraft by 35%.

    Now that the price of the new engines is rather cheaper they are now going into production, but there was little advantage in saving a few thousand dollars a year in lower fuel costs when the engines cost rather more than the fuel saved.

    The best is often the enemy of good enough... and the Russian engines are good enough.... while their range of AAMs is likely to greatly expand very shortly...

    That’s precisely why even China has adopted its homegrown WS-10B turbofan for its J-11B & J-15 heavy-MRCAs.

    China will use domestic engines for its own fighters for the same reason the Russians are developing their own ship engines... if western engine technology is so superior why aren't they buying western engine technology?
    RTN
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    Post  RTN Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:42 am

    GarryB wrote:Why on earth would Russia need to match the west in jet engine production technology?

    A simple case in point is the Il-76's D30 engine... the original cost $800,000, but the PS90A upgrade cost $6 million. The newer engine is more powerful and more fuel efficient but at the end of the day an Il-76 uses 4 engines so the difference in cost of .8 x 4 = 3.2 million dollars and 6 x 4 = 24 million dollars for engines and all of a sudden the engine was available but no one wanted to buy it because it increased the cost of the aircraft by 35%.

    My intention is just to find an answer , so don't take this for rudeness . I am simply highlighting ground realities .


    (1) Can you deny that Russian turbofans have lower TTSLs compared to American and European models ?

    (2) Can you highlight the progress Russia has made developing super alloys using rare-earth materials ?






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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:58 am

    I can tell you if you tell me what a TTSL is.

    If it is something like TBO then I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

    The original TBOs for Soviet and Russian engines was because they were designed for wartime when an aircraft might last a few weeks at most, so rather than carefully stripping down the aircraft and their engines to see if any component required replacement they simply set a fairly conservative schedule for parts replacement.

    This was more expensive and resulted in TBOs that were 10 or more times less than western aircraft (which was a bad thing in terms of cost) but in practical terms it meant the Soviet or Russian aircraft could operate with little to no support for long periods without problems in fairly harsh conditions.

    The western standard of testing and checking components and only replacing parts that clearly need replacing is much cheaper but also requires more intensive inspections and more down time.

    It also effected the performance of the aircraft with fighters performing fewer high speed flights and limiting their g forces during peacetime to extend their operational lives.

    A good example is the very expensive C-17 which can't be used for short takeoffs from rough air strips or the owner will invalidate the warranty... even though that was what the aircraft is supposed to be able to do best...

    Regarding alloys the Russians use alloys of Aluminium and Titanium that are the lightest and strongest currently used in aircraft. The box beam structure in the Tu-160 is unique and the main reason no more have been built is because the factory that made that structure is now in disrepair in the Ukraine.

    The Russians have invested in all sorts of new composite materials and exotic metals...
    RTN
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    Post  RTN Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:39 am

    GarryB wrote:I can tell you if you tell me what a TTSL is.

    My bad . Total Technical Service Lives

    Russian aircraft engines have lower TTSL compared to engines of Western aircrafts .

    GarryB wrote:The western standard of testing and checking components and only replacing parts that clearly need replacing is much cheaper but also requires more intensive inspections and more down time

    Flight Hours and Flight Cycles are considered . Thereafter , the entire Engine is replaced and not just a few components .
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:08 pm

    part of the extra aircraft life of western aircraft is because of better infrastructure and cosseting, and also less demanding flight parameters.

    As I mentioned to extend the airframe life of the C-17 it is not to be used from rough air strips.

    Russian fighter aircraft are faster than western fighter aircraft in general and usually have fewer limits on performance in training.

    Equally if an F-22 suffocates its pilot and the F-22 crashes then rare earth minerals in its engine are a wasted technology are they not?
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:09 am

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I can tell you if you tell me what a TTSL is.

    My bad . Total Technical Service Lives

    Russian aircraft engines  have lower TTSL compared to engines of Western aircrafts .

    Perhaps difference in philosophy. If my memory serve correctly in Jane's Soviet Helicopters : Development and Tactics by Everett Heath, Soviet rationale in maintenance is simplicity and to allow less trained personnel to perform maintenance. One product of this is "Why design long lasting components that need frequent maintenance ?"

    As a result Soviet model have "periodic" Maintenance where at some point component are simply replaced even when they're rarely used, this in their view will simplify technician training.

    When compared with "Western thoughts" Where there is even manual to repair broken turbine blades that above mentioned method appears to be less impressive.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:52 am

    Yes, scheduled replacement of parts after x amount of flight hours means that for say 200 hours you can guarantee that except for battle damage an aircraft will not need any sort of attention except fuel, lubricants and cooling liquids to operate.

    they might have replaced the whole engine after 1,000 hours compared with 7,000 hours for a western equivalent of the time, but in the war period the Soviet or Russia fighter was just fuelled and armed and flown.

    The use of new and exotic materials has increased service life, but also the introduction of inspections and more western style maintainence... The MiG-29SMT was one of the first Soviet planes to introduce onboard testing and monitoring equipment as well as parts inspection and replacement regimes which reduced maintainence costs by 40%.

    I would suggest, without knowing, that the west is likely ahead of the Russians in terms of exotic materials in engines, but I would also suggest that they are not falling behind and in some areas could easily be gaining.
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    Post  RTN Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:09 pm


    Fighter jets like PAK-FA ,F-22 , Su-35 etc are designed to be so inherently unstable that a human can't fly one unassisted .

    In order to be more maneuverable fighter jets are designed in a way that makes them impossible for a human to control without the help of a flight computer .

    Maneuverability is increased, because by definition it is the ability to change states. Stability is the resistance to change. The more stable you are, the harder it is to turn/pitch quickly in a dynamic situation.

    A pilot would not be able to land these aircraft if the fly-by-wire systems became inoperative .

    Instability in pitch lowers trim drag for an aircraft with a tail. Stability refers to the relative positions of the center of lift (cl) and center of gravity, (cg). When the cg is ahead of the cl (stable) an aircraft that stalls can fall forward, increasing speed and recovering.
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:24 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Fighter jets like PAK-FA ,F-22 , Su-35 etc are designed to be so inherently unstable that a human can't fly one unassisted .

    In order to be more maneuverable fighter jets are designed in a way that makes them impossible for a human to control without the help of a flight computer .

    Maneuverability is increased, because by definition it is the ability to change states. Stability is the resistance to change. The more stable you are, the harder it is to turn/pitch quickly in a dynamic situation.

    A pilot would not be able to land these aircraft if the fly-by-wire systems became inoperative .

    Instability in pitch lowers trim drag for an aircraft with a tail. Stability refers to the relative positions of the center of lift (cl) and center of gravity, (cg). When the cg is ahead of the cl (stable) an aircraft that stalls can fall forward, increasing speed and recovering.

    I've heard quite the opposite.... That talented pilots are able to land said "unstable fighter jets" with consistency. I would assume that this is true, but I'll need to do some more research.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:16 pm

    Fighter jets like PAK-FA ,F-22 , Su-35 etc are designed to be so inherently unstable that a human can't fly one unassisted

    The best description I have read is imagine you are sitting on the bonnet of a car (sorry, for those Americans I mean the hood). You have in your hands the handle bars of a bicycle which is facing backwards... its rear wheel is to the front and the front wheel is right in front of you.

    Now imagine the car starts moving... you have to steer the bicycle with lots of tiny movements every second to keep it going backwards... the faster you go the more precise the movements... few people could keep the bike under control at more than a few kms per hour.

    BTW add the F-16 and F-117 to the list of unstable fighters.

    As a hint when a fighter is landing or taking off look at the horizontal tail... if it is making lots of oscillations in pitch rapidly then it is likely an unstable design... without control it would try to fly tail first.

    Aircraft that are stable need to overcome the inertia of their stability before they can start to turn or roll or manouver... a very short delay but a delay nonetheless.

    A pilot would not be able to land these aircraft if the fly-by-wire systems became inoperative .

    Most unstable aircraft have quad redundant fly by wire systems that are independent any of which would be sufficient to keep the aircraft in flight. The backup systems might not allow fantastic flight performance but would ensure flight stability to return to base and land.

    Stability refers to the relative positions of the center of lift (cl) and center of gravity, (cg). When the cg is ahead of the cl (stable) an aircraft that stalls can fall forward, increasing speed and recovering.

    Both Cg and cl change in flight depending on speed and altitude.

    Unstable aircraft want to fly tail first.

    MiG-8 was the first aircraft that was technically stall proof... very simply if you take a plane like a MiG-29 when the main wing stalls the tail surfaces have likely already stalled and the sudden loss of lift means the nose will pitch up. the sudden pitch up increases drag which reduces airspeed... eventually the main wing will stall and the plane will likely go into a serious stall usually falling to the left or right rolling over out of control.

    The MiG-8 had a swept wing and canard foreplanes. When the foreplanes stalled the nose dropped down which increased speed and lowered the angle of attack for the main wing and automatically recovered from the stall.

    The only problem was that you did descend a bit so you had to have altitude.
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    Post  George1 Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:26 am

    Commander: Russian army to start receiving newest T-50 jet fighter from 2016
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    Post  Viktor Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:11 pm

    Nice, in few weeks T-50-5 is back in action thumbsup

    Restoring fighter T-50, which was burning in Zhukovsky, will be completed in the coming weeks
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    Post  Viktor Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:07 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    2014New electronic systems designed for fighter T-50
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    Post  Mike E Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:39 pm

    I assume the LMFS will use a similar, maybe smaller variant? - About electronics.
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    Post  TR1 Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:21 pm

    Mike E wrote:I assume the LMFS will use a similar, maybe smaller variant? - About electronics.

    LMFS does not exist yet. And it is very debatable if it will ever exist at all.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:27 pm

    TR1 wrote:

    LMFS does not exist yet. And it is very debatable if it will ever exist at all.

    So Russia might likely to stick at MiG-29 or 35 as light fighters then ?

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