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74 posters

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    BlackArrow
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    Post  BlackArrow Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    BlackArrow wrote:So what exactly is it doing in that photo, climbing? I thought all aircraft could do that?

    Zoom climb.

    Given the specific time, altitude, aircraft weight load, it can be an impressive indicator.

    Those are many of the determining factors. I wonder with its present 117 motors, just how under or overpowered is the T-50 today?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:10 pm

    I don't think its either.

    Overpowered just means you messed up on the design, and did not take advantage of available thrust. For a given technology level more thrust on the same size just means less engine life, more cost and higher fuel burn. There is a point where the returns are not worth it.

    Underpowered? Well it has better aerodynamics, more advanced control surfaces, lighter weight AND more thrust than say a Su-35, so I don't think there is anyway its thrust is inadequate.
    Then again we don't know the specific kinematic characteristics the RuAF is looking for, so underpowered is a relative term. It might be if they want a really high supercruise number or wild acceleration.
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:21 pm

    Depend what you understand with overpowered. High trust to weight ratio is not overpowered, when engine is designed for this trust and plane construction designed to operate with this trust. Overpowered is, when trust of engine is too big for construction of plane to work with it and make damages in construction.
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    Post  BlackArrow Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:31 pm

    So maybe we could all agree: the present propulsion plant is more than adequate for PAKFA's needs - and there is no pressing need for the 'next generation' type 30 for years yet?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:43 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:So maybe we could all agree: the present propulsion plant is more than adequate for PAKFA's needs - and there is no pressing need for the 'next generation' type 30 for years yet?  

    The plane won't be ready for years, lets be honest here: but yes within the current roadmap I don't see the engine as a critical "failing". The bird would be fine with the current engines I think, their thrust is enough and the plane has such massive internal fuel the relative age of the 117 core won't cripple it.

    Type 30 is estimated to have anywhere from 15-25% more thrust than 117, but I think as far as T-50 is concerned the biggest improvements will be:
    -dry thrust. The Al-31 family (the 117 is an advanced offshoot after-all) has seen big gains in wet thrust, but the dry gain has been more modest.
    -fuel consumption and engine life (don't think the gains will be huge honestly, 117S already has very decent service life, and typically adding thrust, losing weight, and maintaining same size is not conducive to massive efficiency increase.)
    -and more critically - weight loss. New engines are supposed to be fairly exotic in their weight loss achievements.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:23 am

    More to the point as aircraft develop they generally get heavier which means a good balance of thrust to weight ratio normally does not last the first few upgrades.

    Having a more powerful engine to enter service with means the aircraft that enters service will be better able to perform to the level it was supposed to... right out of the box.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:25 am

    BTW a good example would be the Yak 38 and the Yak 38M.

    On paper the Yak-38M was the better aircraft with a more powerful main engine.

    The problem was that the aircraft was basically subsonic only which meant the extra power improved acceleration but reduced range and did not increase top speed so overall it was not that much of an improvement in this case.
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    Post  Viktor Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:54 am

    And so it effectively ends saga of a Rafale payed blogglers

    Russia fulfills obligations under 5th gentn fighter aircraft programme with India

    Russia fulfills all of its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme with India, Russian Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin said at the Defexpo-2014 security systems exhibition on Thursday, February 6

    “We pay no attention to negative publications that appear from time to time and claim that Russia does not fulfill its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme. Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation under this programme develops as scheduled, and we have not received any official complaints from the Indian side", he said

    Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, Deputy Director of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told ITAR-TASS at the exhibition that all such publications had been written to order.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:08 am

    You guys know the streaks airliners leave in the sky ain't smoke either right

    Read the two posts before mine... we were talking about what a troll would be saying... ie thrust vector is only for air shows, tail slides are useless in combat, the Flanker is a good air show plane but can do all that stuff with a real weapon load.... etc etc.

    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:12 am

    You guys know the streaks airliners leave in the sky ain't smoke either right

    Actually in Greece 80% of the population think (I am speaking about real polls here) that this is medication they spray to us to be receptive to US, German and Zionist occupation. Go figure.
    Flanky
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    Post  Flanky Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:28 am

    Hey guys...
    Some of the prototypes have a small transparent radome behind the cockpit canopy.
    Anyone any ideas what that is?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:43 am

    MAWS.

    Basically a system to detect incoming threats by their IR emissions... ie the speed heated nosecone of an incoming missile, or the IR plume of a rocket motor behind the nosecone of an incoming missile.
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    Post  lulldapull Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:52 pm

    Garry have you noticed how slow, unwieldy and sluggish this thing looks in maneuvers on youtube?

    Compare it to some of the F-22 videos. Shit there is a huge difference between the two.

    And I am talking roll rate, instantaneous turn, and the speed of course.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:18 am

    lulldapull wrote:Garry have you noticed how slow, unwieldy and sluggish this thing looks in maneuvers on youtube?

    Compare it to some of the F-22 videos. Shit there is a huge difference between the two.

    And I am talking roll rate, instantaneous turn, and the speed of course.

    1.) Pak-Fa T-50 is still in prototype stage.

    2.) Considering recent history of developing air-superiority fighters, Russian designs have been widely recognized as being the most maneuverable in the world. F-22 has 2-D vector engines, Pak-Fa will have 3-D vector engines.

    3.) The F-22 is a hangar queen, 30-40 hours of repair time for every 1 hour of air time. A good analogy might be the F-22 is a skilled Olympic athlete, and pioneered in it's field in a multitude of ways, however it never lived up to it's full potential due to the fact that it's an extremely injury-proned athlete.


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
    Airbornewolf
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:27 am

    take my word for it lulldapull, the west does its fair share of media manipulation too.

    the US labelled their bomb JDAM package as some sort of ultimate bombing weapon technology too. i think every 1 in 3 malfunctioned for various reasons in Afghanistan. fin-icing, GPS failure, or even faulty battery's that where no longer able to power their guidance fins.

    im convinced the PAK-FA will take the spot to be a dangerous aircraft in the international theater.
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:32 am

    edit: double post, i did not know how to remove it.


    Last edited by Airbornewolf on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Airbornewolf Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:34 am

    (by magnumcromagnon.) The F-22 is a hangar queen, 30-40 hours of repair time for every 1 hour of air time. A good analogy might be the F-22 is a skilled Olympic athlete, and pioneered in it's field in a multitude of ways, however it never lived up to it's full potential due to the fact that it's an extremely injury-proned athlete.

    its one of the main reasons i am in favour of russian hardware most of the time. it does what its intended puprose is, wage war. not to sit in a hangar for repairs or otherwise unacceptable maintenance. fighter aircraft should have minimum maintenance and be able to refuel, reload and take off again.
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    Post  lulldapull Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:44 am

    Guys, look at this vid............shit this F-22 is just cutting some serious tight turns! Makes the Pak-Fa look like a boat! I understand the Pak-Fa is still a prototype, but still the difference is huge! Maybe it's the size factor? no? The F-22 is about a third smaller maybe that's why more maneuverable?

    It's unbelievable how this ugly Raptor has grown on me. The more I see its videos the more I realize that it is a dangerous warplane:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wLKvXMxZ0

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:50 am

    The PAK-FA has made no similar displays, how you can even compare the two at this stage is beyond me.
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    Post  lulldapull Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:55 am

    TR1 are you hinting the same thing that since it is still at proto stage, we shouldn't even bother comparing?
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    Post  TR1 Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:59 am

    lulldapull wrote:TR1 are you hinting the same thing that since it is still at proto stage, we shouldn't even bother comparing?

    Exactomundo.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:49 am

    Garry have you noticed how slow, unwieldy and sluggish this thing looks in maneuvers on youtube?

    Compare it to some of the F-22 videos. Shit there is a huge difference between the two.

    And I am talking roll rate, instantaneous turn, and the speed of course.

    Your question has already been answered, but let me make a few comments... first of all the F-22 is a long range sniper that is well camouflaged... it is designed for long range shots and to not be seen because in close range combat despite how sharp it looks in videos it does not have high off boresight missiles and it does not have helmet mounted sights so would be in the same situation as a 1990s F-16 vs a Mig-29... ie dead in a dogfight.

    All modern and obsolete Russian fighters have high offboresight IR guided AAMs and helmet mounted cueing systems. Soon those missiles will be much better and those sights will be better too.

    Regarding the PAK FA it is still in development... they are exploring the envelop to determine its soft and hard borders.

    The F-22 is an in service aircraft with established borders and limits that the pilots have learned and know not to cross.
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:23 am

    BrahMos wants to make missile adaptable for FGFA


    The buzzwords at Defexpo India-2014 are ‘joint production.’ BrahMos Aerospace, which is a joint venture set up by Russia and India, has set the standards on future cooperation between New Delhi and foreign partners. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive BrahMos Aerospace, who was conferred the ‘Order of Friendship,’ by Russian President Vladimir Putin, talks about the prospects for the supersonic missile, India’s new defence procurement policy and how Russians and Indians can use their brainpower to create a new kind of weapon.

    What are in your opinion are the main objectives of Defexpo India 2014?

    There are two objectives of this exhibition. It is being conducted in India and particularly in the capital. It is a very vibrant city from the defence point of view. We have to expose our technological competence and our partnership with industry. So we are working with a number of industries in India. They are contributing in a big way for production, investing their funds for expanding the facilities and infrastructure build-up. We have to recognise them. That is the first aim.

    The second objective is to attract the foreign customers. By foreign customers, I mean that Defexpo India is being attended by some of the ministers and chiefs of Southeast Asia.  We get a response from some other countries, particularly from the CIS and Middle East. So we are interested in attracting those customers.

    What is BrahMos showcasing at Defexpo India?

    This time, in addition to our normal exposition of our land and sea capability, we are adding two important elements. One is the progress on the BrahMos to be launched from Sukhoi, how far we have come and what are the capabilities we have built and what way it will make a change.

    The second thing is that we need to develop a supersonic missile, unlike the present BrahMos size, a reduced size which will have capability to be added into many platforms. For example if the diameter is reduced to 500 millimetres, it can go in the tube of the submarine. A number of them can be put in the Sukhois and so one present one and we can put it in many platforms.


    Our target is fifth generation aircraft which is also a joint venture with Russia. That type of aircraft is going to produced in large numbers both in India and Russia. Why not we make a missile suitable to be carried by the fifth generation aircraft? This we want to show.


    What exactly would it be?

    The full scale model of the new missile, which is going to be developed.
    When is the first flight test to be expected?
    We have just started. We have got the approval of our board of directors to start the design work. We are now currently in the process of finalising the specifications and the design. Probably in three years’ time, we will be showing the flight test.
    Second thing that you mentioned is a progress on Sukhoi integration with BrahMos. So what is the progress on this?
    We have made a big breakthrough in the modification of the aircraft, the structural modification and the integration of launcher and the missile. We have made an instrumented missile with similarity in the same weight, similarity in the same size and we have modified the aircraft. Now we are trying to integrate both of them to see the perfect matching. Once that process is over, we will be flying the aircraft with that carriage load.
    We are first attempting to prove the safety of the aircraft. That is what we are currently doing and we have made a lot of progress on that. In another two to three months time, we will be flying the aircraft with the system, with the instrumented missile.
    Second important thing is that you need to develop the whole cockpit modified with the software, with the machine computer and for the pilot to enable the operation. That process is tried out successfully in the simulator and with that progress, we will be in a position to put pilot in the loop. We have started the training of the pilots to do this work.
    The third important thing is you need to have the fire control system integrated with the launcher and the missile. This integration of the fire control system on the launcher and the missile, the whole thing has been done.


    The fourth thing is you have to release the missile. The missile is released from the aircraft, so the release mechanism has to be evaluated. So currently, we are doing this work at an industrial unit in Trivandrum. They have made the launcher and the release mechanism has been integrated into the launcher and the whole load of the missile is put there and they are doing the trials on the release mechanism.
    So once these all the four components are ready, we will be in a position to do the missile release and fire. Here again is the target. For the last quarter of the year, we are targeting to fly the missile from the aircraft.

    I got the news that Vietnam is very interested in purchasing the BrahMos missiles? Could you confirm?

    No there is nothing like that. Today, we are not doing that. What you are saying is news to me.
    You mean there are no negotiations with foreign countries are going on?
    The Indian government has not done any negotiations with any country for BrahMos, neither has the Russian government. These two governments have left it to us and we have to do that but we are at the beginning stage. We have not finalised anything.

    Does it mean that in the next one ortwo years, there will be no purchases of BrahMos by any foreign country?

    No, not like that. Do not make wrong conclusions. We will give you a surprise. That is all. You understand, we will give you a surprise, we will not tell you now.

    BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited is a pioneer in joint ventures between India and foreign countries. Are there any other prospective areas where joint ventures could be established?


    I see a great potential in this because in the last 15 years of working with Russia, I can say we are good friends. We believe each other and we do not cheat each other. Suppose we take some technology, we are not trying to misuse that technology or multiply that technology in different ways. We honestly believe the cooperation has to continue with the same spirit. This type of feeling is there in the Indian and Russian minds and the way the technology is moving up, technology needs good people, brainy people. In my analysis of the whole world, after studying in Harvard Business School, after going to all countries, I can tell you that best brains are Indians and Russians because I have seen them.

    See, the origin of brainpower comes in mathematics. Who are the best people in mathematics in the world? The whole mathematics from zero onwards, binary numbers and pie, algebra, trigonometry came from India. The best algorithms, the mathematics and periodic table have come from Russia. I am convinced that best brains can make new type of algorithms, the brainpower is very high. These people should join together. If you ask me where the joint venture possibility is; it is to find a new arena of warfare using mind power, use mind power as the source to go for a new type of weapon.
    I want to introduce a new concept. This is possible if you join together. I am not talking about conventional things.  Anybody can do conventional things. Any two countries can join together and do it
    The lesson we got from BrahMos is you can join together and make a weapon which is not available in the developed world. You can become a leader. The two forces join together. So you should also use the best effort, brains of two countries to make something which is not contemplated by anyone.

    You have had huge experience working with Sukhoi. What are your feelings about this fighter plane?

    This is one of the finest aircraft with a high manoeuvrability. So Sukhoi is one of the top most deep penetration strike aircraft with refuel capability to go for a long distance. There is no other equivalent aircraft.


    There will be a seminar titled ‘Indigenisation of Defence Procurement: Global Partnerships Towards Joint Development and Indigenisation’ along with Defexpo India 2014. How is this “Indigenisation” going in India?

    When we started building up our industrial base, there was no one to invest from the private sector. The government had to create these industries, they are called the public sector industries, PSUs. They created HAL for aircraft, electronics, Bharat Electronics, missile, BDL, ordinance factories. That was a time when we needed weapons because in 1962, there was a war, India-China war and suddenly we got into a problem and there was no weapon available.
    We had to get them from Russia. Russia gave us lot of technology to produce in India through their PSUs, it was working but after 50 years of our independence if you take, after 1962, today, our industries have grown, private industries have grown whereas public sector industries you see the efficiency has come down.

    The private sector is coming up in a big way but they are looking for a market. The policy of our government was not encouraging private sector to go in a big way so far. Honourable Defence Minister Mr. Antony has taken special effort to bring more indigenous systems so that many players can come. Slowly, the concept of private sector integration is taking place and if you see the DPP 13, it gives more weightage to production in India. So if that is the approach and if we continue this further, the Indian industries have got a big role to play.

    So when India would be ready to fulfil all of its needs in defence products by itself?

    Actually we should not declare that India will be producing everything domestically. It is not correct. Today, you are trying to make combinations of the efforts between the countries to make the best. If India has to do everything and build everything, it will take more time to build industries, build technology or anything. If that is the approach, India will be lagging behind the big countries. If India has to get hold of the position of number one in the world, India has to have partners. That is why this joint venture like BrahMos has helped India to move up. We should not forget about this fact that joint ventures with like-minded countries are the benefit to the country. We should not forget about it. We should not think of that everything should be produced in India with our own effort keeping away all other countries. It is a democratic country. We have got good policies. There are many people who want to come.


    Recently the US said, like BrahMos it want a joint venture. They were told that we are not interested in making hotchpotch arrangement of the joint ventures. The joint ventures must break new technologies, upgrade that technological competence of the country. That way if you do joint ventures, it will be beneficial to the country to leapfrog.
    Demand high technology if you have to go for joint ventures. Do not import systems but go for joint ventures. Go in a big way to build the military industry complex. In 10 years’ time, India would have become a good very competent country.

    The Indian government is set to issue the tender for P 75 I submarine. Would be one of the conditions to the participants that
    these submarines would have to be equipped with BrahMos missiles?


    BrahMos today is the weapon with the most potential for our Indian Navy. Indian Navy has accepted this and it is being put in all the ships.
    We recently experimented with the concept of salvo. The idea is to prove that we do not have to wait and that we can simultaneously fire eight missiles with a gap of three seconds and all eight targets will be hit at almost the same time. This will completely perplex the enemy. This capability is available with BrahMos. If it can be launched like this from submarine, you will see the underwater form, which we have approved already. Eight missiles come from underwater and eight targets! Now, what are the targets? Each missile is capable of hitting sea target as well a land target. This is the only missile in the world which has got the capability to attack sea target as well as land target.


    You can feed all the target positions in the fire control system whether it is land or sea and tell the missile to go all the way. This capability if it is coming from submarine, there is no enemy for us. That is why we are telling P75 I should have BrahMos vertically launched.

    Are you planning to sign any agreements during Defexpo India 2014?

    On February 12, 1998, we signed an agreement with Russia for 15 years with a provision to extend it for one year. So it will be completed on 12th February 2014. Before that, we have to sign an agreement again extending this one. Now both the governments have considered and they have cleared for signing.

    It will be the same agreement that was signed at that time?

    Yes same thing but it will be continuous. Every year it will get automatically extended. That means indefinitely we are extending the joint venture. As long as both the people like each other... Forever, no last date. It is like marriage.

    How do you feel about the future of public private partnership in defence production here?

    It is very bright because everyone feels that the future is only in the public private partnership and people are talking, not implementing but we are implementers. This experience is the most wonderful experience because when we go to a PSU, government has to invest on the infrastructure and when you go to the private sector, it makes the investment. So when such an opportunity comes free, why government should not agree to that?

    http://indrus.in/economics/2014/02/07/brahmos_wants_to_make_missile_adaptable_for_fgfa_-_sivathanu_pillai_32883.html
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    Post  lulldapull Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:04 am

    Sujoy, I believe that India now has moved on from doing partnerships with Russia, especially with the procurement of the Rafale in large quantities with Dassault in France.

    It was a body blow to both okb mig and Sukhoi!

    After this FGFA drama is over future contracts are in doubt.

    The Poseidon and C-130 acquisitions also point toward India opening up more to the Western suppliers and culling its dependency on Russian arms manufacturers.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy


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    Post  Sujoy Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:54 am

    lulldapull wrote:Sujoy, I believe that India now has moved on from doing partnerships with Russia, especially with the procurement of the Rafale in large quantities with Dassault in France.

    INDIA had also procured Mirage 2000 in large numbers from Dassault and yet purchased MIG 27 .

    Apart from PAK FA the following are the projects between Russia and India :

    (1 ) SSBN's - S 2 ; S 3 ; S 4

    (2) IL-214 MRTA

    (3) BRAHMOS 2

    (4) Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) 1

    I am not even including the next tranche of Frigates , SU 30MKI , T 90s or the assembly lines set up in India for MI , Ka helos and Smerch Rocket Launchers .

    I leave it to you to do the math on the total value of these projects .

    With no other country does Russia have such extensive Defense contracts .

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