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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 Mon May 04, 2020 10:03 am

    Air-breathing spin detonation ramjet, video of test and link to website.

    https://fpi.gov.ru/projects/fiziko-tekhnicheskie-issledovaniya/detonatsionnyy-pvrd/




    PS, lots of other VERY interesting projects on that website, from liquid breathing apparatuses to super polymers to new forms of 3d printing, ooh la la.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon May 04, 2020 4:34 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:Air-breathing spin detonation ramjet, video of test and link to website.

    https://fpi.gov.ru/projects/fiziko-tekhnicheskie-issledovaniya/detonatsionnyy-pvrd/




    PS, lots of other VERY interesting projects on that website, from liquid breathing apparatuses to super polymers to new forms of 3d printing, ooh la la.

    So is this a scramjet minus the waverider design? Then again it looks like it could be the lower portion of the Kh-90 design:

    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research - Page 24 DvpgO8TXQAA0V4B
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    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 Mon May 04, 2020 7:35 pm

    It could be, TKMDB Soyuz was supposed to make the engine for Kh-90 and they're the same people behind this, but I mainly wanted to point out the spin detonation part of this engine, I'm not aware of any other project in the world at this size and power, really pointing to Russia's leadership in this.

    This plus the kerosene and liquid oxygen detonation engine shown a while ago bodes quite well for the Aerospace industry. I wonder if their will be a detonation engine for subsonic aircraft or if that will be handled by HTSC electric motors that are being made with SuperOx.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon May 04, 2020 9:08 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:It could be, TKMDB Soyuz was supposed to make the engine for Kh-90 and they're the same people behind this, but I mainly wanted to point out the spin detonation part of this engine, I'm not aware of any other project in the world at this size and power, really pointing to Russia's leadership in this.

    This plus the kerosene and liquid oxygen detonation engine shown a while ago bodes quite well for the Aerospace industry. I wonder if their will be a detonation engine for subsonic aircraft or if that will be handled by HTSC electric motors that are being made with SuperOx.

    What would be the actual advantage? It couldn't be speed (subsonic obviously), could it be range? The Foundation for Advanced Studies has promising advanced prototypes of electric engines for aircraft, and considering the Federation has the most cost-competitive Graphene production (apparently by a factor of 75).

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t2824p625-ew-technologies-and-innovation-development-in-russia#275746

    If they 3D print Li-ion batteries made from Graphene, combined the electric engines, it should make a real impact on the world of aeronautics....especially because the 737 Max has caused Boeings shares to nose dive, and the current pandemic has put commercial airliner industry in to the shitter!
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    Post  x_54_u43 Mon May 04, 2020 10:13 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:It could be, TKMDB Soyuz was supposed to make the engine for Kh-90 and they're the same people behind this, but I mainly wanted to point out the spin detonation part of this engine, I'm not aware of any other project in the world at this size and power, really pointing to Russia's leadership in this.

    This plus the kerosene and liquid oxygen detonation engine shown a while ago bodes quite well for the Aerospace industry. I wonder if their will be a detonation engine for subsonic aircraft or if that will be handled by HTSC electric motors that are being made with SuperOx.

    What would be the actual advantage? It couldn't be speed (subsonic obviously), could it be range? The Foundation for Advanced Studies has promising advanced prototypes of electric engines for aircraft, and considering the Federation has the most cost-competitive Graphene production (apparently by a factor of 75).

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t2824p625-ew-technologies-and-innovation-development-in-russia#275746

    If they 3D print Li-ion batteries made from Graphene, combined the electric engines, it should make a real impact on the world of aeronautics....especially because the 737 Max has caused Boeings shares to nose dive, and the current pandemic has put commercial airliner industry in to the shitter!

    Well, detonation engines make their distinction as being detonation rather than deflagration, which is outright more efficient and more powerful, nothing says you couldn't make one for subsonic usage or even turboshaft setup like for powering helos, ground vehicles, ships and other things and there are concepts and programs for exactly such engines.


    And yes, Russia's advantage in graphene and other material sciences will be the winning factor in the future arms/tech race going on, but with regards to electric aircraft I don't see fully electric widebodies coming soon, requirements are too severe for even future battery concepts, current trend for larger electric aircraft compared to the ones we have now is a electric drive setup, with a turbine powering a generator and then using that for an electric motor, which is where SuperOx's HTSC tech comes in, and where a detonation shaft engine with far superior characteristics come in(lighter, smaller, more powerful, less fuel usage) make it another winner for something like CR929, or another potential widebody from Russia.

    There was a Sukhoi paper project with partial folding wings and a double decker setup that didn't go anywhere to the glorious 90s and general expense of the project. It was called KR-860 and looks stunning. With future detonation engines and HTSC, along with new super materials coming along, such as graphene and super polymers/composites that are being worked on, you might see Russia going on it's own for a widebody without China holding it back. I honestly feel that CR929 is just a guaranteed way of making money of Chinese market.
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 05, 2020 8:47 am

    Jet engines are pretty standard on most subsonic large aircraft like airliners and cargo transport planes... a more efficient much cheaper simpler engine design is always interesting and potentially useful... and of course if this offers potential for scramjet propulsion having an engine type that can operate from a standing still start to mach 20 plus in the high atmosphere would mean the goal of an aircraft that could take off from a runway and accelerate fast enough to launch a satellite into orbit could be achieved...

    Currently you need a significant rocket from something like a MiG-31 to get something in to low earth orbit but imagine an aircraft that climbed to 60km altitude at mach 20... you are well above most of the atmosphere so a rocket could then take a sizable payload into low earth orbit or a smaller payload to a much higher orbit without needing to be enormous and therefore expensive...

    That plane could also deliver things around the world at astounding speeds... whether it is humans or critical cargo.... imagine a 3 hour flight from London to Sydney...
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    Post  dino00 Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:06 pm

    "MIT Corporation" is working on motor hypersound, the theme has the code "scramjet"

    Source No. 1, report of the Joint Institute for High Temperatures of the Russian Academy of Sciences for 2017:
    Contract D-2176-13. Cipher "scramjet". Customer OJSC MIT Corporation
    Validity period - September 15, 2013 - October 29, 2015

    Source No. 2, Ph.D. thesis of the candidate of Technical Sciences Kochetkov Vladimir Grigoryevich: The
    work was performed as part of the basic part of the state assignment for 2017-2019. (project 4.7491.2017 / warhead) on equipment purchased under the strategic development program of Volgograd State Technical University for 2012-2016, the industrial program of the mid-range research project on the subject of “Heat Protection” and the secondary research work “Research, development and creation of promising heat-protective coatings on the inner surfaces of gas generators (topic "Scramjet").
    ...
    The developed fire-and-heat-protective materials passed industrial testing at JSC TsNIISM and JSC MIT Corporation.
    ...
    The application of the developed fireproof materials makes it possible to increase the heating time of the protected structures, under the influence of flame and high-temperature flows (up to 2000 ° C), due to reduced thermal conductivity and increased coke formation.

    https://e-maksimov.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%9C%D0%98%D0%A2

    This news is from one of those blogs livejournal like bmdp, don't know if credible, it's from December 2018...

    He talks about a scramjet built for The Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology, the same that developed Bulava, Topol-M...etc...
    This institute is the same that signed with the MoD the anchar-rv contract...
    In my opinion this has nothing to do with Zircon or Gzur, different companies NPO mashinostroyeniya the first, Raduga the second.
    Why would Russia need a third scramjet engine project?
    Could be a HGV powered by a scramjet? A scramjet engine for a plane? A hypersonic cruise missile launched from yars or Bulava? lol1 A hypersonic drone?

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:49 pm

    For the same reason they need more than one type of jet engine... a cruise missile and a reentering ICBM or SLBM RV and an interceptor aircraft and a bomber aircraft and a long range passenger plane are not all going to be able to use the same scramjet.... different sizes, different speeds, different altitudes and expectations etc etc...
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    Post  dino00 Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:For the same reason they need more than one type of jet engine... a cruise missile and a reentering ICBM or SLBM RV and an interceptor aircraft and a bomber aircraft and a long range passenger plane are not all going to be able to use the same scramjet.... different sizes, different speeds, different altitudes and expectations etc etc...

    It was a question to the forum Very Happy
    Why would a institute that almost exclusively develops ICBM/SLBM needs a scramjet?
    I'm not criticizing, I love scramjets, there could have 6 different sizes of scramjets "now": mini Zircon, Zircon, giant Zircon, Gzur, Gzur for SU-57, and this one.
    Obviously some of the scramjets could have the same size and the difference be solid fuel part.

    From 2001: Suspect

    https://www.terradaily.com/reports/Russians_Tested_New_Type_Of_Ballistic_Missile_Report.html

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:58 pm

    dino00 wrote:Why would a institute that almost exclusively develops ICBM/SLBM needs a scramjet?

    #1 Scram-jet powered HGV.

    #2 Scram-jet powered upper stage that cruises thru the upper atmosphere instead of going ballistic high above the earth. Think of it as a high-altitude long-range version of Zircon launched by a rocket stage.

    There are just SO many delicious uses for such technologies, none of them appealing to the Uh'murikkkan elites. Twisted Evil
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    Post  dino00 Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:07 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Why would a institute that almost exclusively develops ICBM/SLBM needs a scramjet?

    #1 Scram-jet powered HGV.  

    #2 Scram-jet powered upper stage that cruises thru the upper atmosphere instead of going ballistic high above the earth.  Think of it as a high-altitude long-range version of Zircon launched by a rocket stage.

    There are just SO many delicious uses for such technologies, none of them appealing to the Uh'murikkkan elites. Twisted Evil

    This were 2 of the options that I though, the second looks more plausible Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:14 am

    Well previously if you wanted intercontinental range you needed to reach orbit and to reach orbital speed you could only do so with a rocket... even a ramjet couldn't get you fast enough.

    But now a scramjet can do the job and normally in a rocket motor the fuel by weight is one quarter fuel and three quarters dedicated to generating enormous amounts of oxygen for that fuel to burn rapidly.

    For something like an ICBM or SLBM 95% of the vehicle is fuel by weight, so a 100 ton missile has about 25 tons of actual fuel and 75 tons of oxidiser so that fuel can be burned.... but it needs the enormous and powerful rocket engine it uses because it needs to carry all that fuel... so if you replace that rocket engine with a scramjet engine you need a quarter of the fuel by weight which means you dramatically reduce the weigh of the vehicle so you can use a much less powerful scramjet motor to move it.

    A nuclear ramjet does not involve combustion so it is technically a scramjet anyway because the airflow does not need to be slowed down like in a ramjet... there were plenty of old designs of super long range cruise missiles that were going to use ramjet motors to fly intercontinental distances inside the atmosphere... but at nothing like orbital speeds... something like the the original BURAN or Burya...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS-40_Buran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya

    Both projects before ICBMs were perfected and reliable... both were mach 3-3.5 ramjet powered cruise missiles launched by solid rocket boosters.

    With scramjet motors their speed and range could be tripled these days, while their weights could be reduced by an enormous amount too with much better rocket and scramjet propulsion... and of course much lighter heat resistant structures and lighter nuclear payloads.
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    Post  dino00 Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:05 pm

    The President of the Russian Federation noted that today no one can bring down hypersonic missiles.

    “Nobody takes them today. Such speeds that it’s impossible to take them. This is the uniqueness of our current situation. I repeat once again: with a high degree of probability we will have a means of combating hypersonic weapons by the time that the leading countries of the world have this hypersonic weapons, "he concluded.


    https://ria.ru/20200614/1572908622.html
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    Post  dino00 Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:58 pm

    Russia began to create the latest hypersonic light-class missile

    The Russian Ground Forces will be able to destroy enemy headquarters, command posts, artillery and armored vehicles in a matter of seconds after receiving the newest hypersonic light-class missile, the development of which has already begun.


    Sources in the defense department told Izvestia that the development is being carried out as part of the implementation of the concept of high-precision tactical missile systems.

    The novelty is designed for a range of hundreds of kilometers - to cover this distance, it will take a matter of seconds.

    Work on the creation of new weapons is based on the technical solutions of the Hermes missile complex project.

    Compact launchers can be mounted on Typhoon and Tiger armored vehicles. The targets will be detected by drones and soldiers with KRUS "Strelets" kits. The new weapons will take an intermediate position between artillery and heavy operational-tactical Iskander-M missile systems.

    Read the full version of the article in the latest issue of Izvestia on November 3

    https://iz.ru/1081971/2020-11-02/rossiia-nachala-sozdanie-noveishei-giperzvukovoi-rakety-legkogo-klassa
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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:11 pm

    Sounds like Hermes.

    Embarassed

    Should read more carefully before replying. yes sir
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    Post  dino00 Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:51 pm

    ... the full article...

    The development of new missiles has begun on the basis of technical solutions for the Hermes missile complex project, Izvestia sources in the defense industry said. The principal difference between the weapons, which received the working designation "Klevok-D2", will be the use of a new ramjet engine (ramjet). It will actually accelerate the missile to hypersonic speed, which will dramatically increase its range and make it invulnerable to modern air defense systems.

    Earlier Izvestia reported that the military department approved the concept of introducing high-precision tactical missile systems into ground brigades and divisions. Compact launchers can be mounted on Typhoon and Tiger armored vehicles. Targets for them will be detected by unmanned aerial vehicles and soldiers with KRUS "Strelets" kits. The new weapons will take an intermediate place between artillery and heavy operational-tactical Iskander-M missile systems.

    According to the terms of reference for the development of the components of the complex (the documents are at the disposal of Izvestia), the new ammunition can be used from a variety of platforms, both ground and air. The launch weight in the transport and launch container will not exceed 150 kilograms. The caliber of 207 mm taken from "Hermes" will not change either. A warhead weighing 57 kg should be enough to destroy both armored vehicles and light shelters or individual buildings.

    According to sources, the rocket will be equipped with wings that unfold after launch. After taking off with the help of a detachable launch stage and giving the initial acceleration, the flight will continue on the cruise ramjet engine. On it, it will accelerate to several thousand kilometers per hour in 40 seconds. The terms of reference indicated that it should be optimized for movement at a level of up to five speeds of sound, which is the official boundary for the beginning of hypersound.

    - Previously, the combined-arms divisions included Tochka missile systems, which are outdated and removed from service. And the divisions received nothing in return, ”military expert Viktor Murakhovsky told Izvestia. “As a result, they had no long-range firepower left. At the same time, the area of ​​responsibility of motorized rifle and tank brigades and divisions has expanded, and the scope of operations that they must carry out in accordance with new combat documents has increased. And from the means of fire, these formations have only barreled artillery and multiple launch rocket systems. Their range does not allow them to operate over the entire depth of the division's zone of responsibility. As a result, the commander is forced to ask the senior commander for resources. This is an abnormal situation. The commander must have at hand his own firepower capable of solving reconnaissance and strike missions.

    It is possible to direct new long-range missile systems in a variety of ways: from drones, using radar reconnaissance or information from military intelligence units, the expert added.

    Full article
    https://iz.ru/1081898/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/iskander-mladshii-voennye-poluchat-giperzvukovye-minirakety

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:07 am

    So it sounds like they are making a scramjet powered Hermes missile... presumably a full calibre model where the missile stage has a scramjet motor presumably with an integral solid rocket motor of the combined rocket ramjet design that they have been using.

    So it still has a rocket stage booster that launches it, but I suspect its size and shape and drag will change.

    Right now with the 100km range Hermes it has a huge solid rocket booster to get it up to 1.3km/s speeds but the second stage... the actual missile is a very slim low drag section that pretty much coasts to the target over a lofted trajectory to 100km range targets.

    This version would need to be thicker for the scramjet and fuel, but would need rather less solid rocket assistance... first of all because as I mentioned it wont need to be accelerated to 1.3km/s because with the front section having a scramjet motor it can further accelerate and climb much more efficiently than any rocket, so a smaller lighter solid rocket separate booster which then falls away and then a solid rocket booster inside the scramjet to further accelerate the missile and then light up the scramjet to accelerate to very high mach.

    The standard Hermes reaches 1.3km/s which is about mach 4 or so, but they should be able to accelerate to about 1.8km/s or so quite easily... but the point is that it will be 1.8km/s powered flight.

    It is also interesting that aircraft can carry Hermes and use it in an air to air role/mode...
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    Post  dino00 Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:14 pm

    GarryB

    It's a ramjet, that can go Mach5, it will not change the diameter.

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    Post  thegopnik Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:45 pm

    Hate to sound clueless but I am assuming the 100km Hermes is 3.5 meters in length and 170mm in diameter, and regarding the weigh characteristics of the new missile it should not be that much different in dimensions but better speed and range?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:24 am

    GarryB

    It's a ramjet, that can go Mach5, it will not change the diameter.

    You are right and wrong... the missile stage of the Hermes is long and thin to minimise drag so that after the booster stage falls away it can fly ballisticly towards the target on a trajectory like an artillery shell maintaining speed because it is essentially a dart.

    It will be a ramjet, though later on if they want to extend range much further they will have to fly rather faster which would require a change to a scramjet...

    The point is that to make a ramjet effective it needs an intake and a ramjet engine and of course fuel and it mentions the payload has almost doubled to 57kgs.

    Now the original Hermes has a 29kg warhead, but in a small slim dart the mass was useful because it helps it fly through the air more efficiently...

    Imagine trying to throw a blown up balloon... its light weight means you can accelerate it quickly but its huge drag and lack of weight (ie momentum) means it slows down just as rapidly.

    In comparison a small ball bearing can be thrown great distances.

    We know this new Hermes missile has propulsion... when fired horizontally and presumably with a much smaller solid rocket booster fired from helicopters it reaches 25km, but from a ground launcher presumably angled up and fired like an artillery shell it can hit targets 100km away.

    A new model with a ramjet engine will have its own power so it does not need to be a tiny slim dart... a thicker body means more room for fuel, and because the warhead has doubled in size you are going to need that extra fuel to carry it any useful distance.

    From the article it sounds like it will be using high speed and also manouver capability to evade enemy air defences so lots of fuel would be useful, while the bigger warhead will make it more effective on impact.

    It says the weapon is 150kgs in the launch tube that includes the main missile and the booster... with a larger body and a ramjet it would no longer need to be accelerated to 1.3km per second so the smaller solid rocket booster could be used meaning less weight in the solid rocket portion and more weight can be put into the missile itself as warhead and fuel...

    What is really interesting would be SOSNA-R... or Pine... currently a small light dart missile on a solid rocket booster designed to shoot down aircraft to replace the SA-13 and SA-9... because of the solid rocket booster which accelerates the light small missile to about 1.3km/s the weapons flight time to 10km is about 12 seconds... imagine a scramjet powered model with a core of DU 1.5m long and 15kgs in weight that could be directed at a tank at 3km/s... able to hit targets between 15 and 35km away... with a flight time of 8-15 seconds or so...

    Hate to sound clueless but I am assuming the 100km Hermes is 3.5 meters in length and 170mm in diameter, and regarding the weigh characteristics of the new missile it should not be that much different in dimensions but better speed and range?

    The addition of an engine on the missile will mean the missile will need to be bigger but that the solid rocket booster can be smaller and lighter.

    The solid rocket booster as mentioned is a 207mm item and with propulsion the front section might as well fill the tube to add fuel and warhead... the ramjet could be designed to equal drag in terms of thrust most of the way... so essentially the solid rocket will accelerate the missile to flight speed... a smaller rocket might only manage 800m/s with a bigger heavier missile payload but the ramjet should be able to accelerate the missile to 1.3km/s and then throttle back and just maintain that speed to target... maybe increase thrust near the target where manouvers would otherwise slow it down a little...

    This is neat...

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    Post  thegopnik Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:13 am

    The addition of an engine on the missile will mean the missile will need to be bigger but that the solid rocket booster can be smaller and lighter.

    Hermes well the 100km version has two stage engines. https://web.archive.org/web/20100213044513/http://kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermes.htm Really happy I found this old info. However I suddenly got an erection from this part of dino00's article. "The caliber of 207 mm taken from "Hermes" will not change either." if you click on that image 100km Hermes missile is used with a 3.5 meter length tube and 210mm caliber. So if the ramjet which of course will be the 2nd stage engine will mean that length wise it would be longer with a little more weight because article did say same caliber with folding wings so by bigger you mean longer length?

    Although I personally think it will be the same length or close to it since Hermes warhead was 28kg this one says 57kg warhead hermes with warhead included is 130kg add additional 29kg to match new ramjet missile than its over 150kg(this is there reference for new missile weight) by 9kg. 7000km/hr to km/s is 1.944 times the 40 seconds in dinos article that it accelerates with such speeds meaning 77.76km range covered. but of course additional range is also covered by the booster and the ramjet setting itself to get to 7000km/hr than lasting 40 seconds with it. https://web.archive.org/web/20100309083505/http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermesk.htm and https://web.archive.org/web/20100309095842/http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermesa.htm Hermes 170mm booster and warhead is for 1 20km. Hermes 207mm with warhead being 20kg heavier is up to 100km. So I am guessing that 80km + 77km means it will cover a 157km range? Although I have no idea how much booster or sustainer ranges last but I do know with slightly bigger diameters like 207 instead of 170 gave it that 80km boost(assuming sustainer stages are same sizes for both) while the article stated 77.76kms of 7000km/hr for 40 seconds.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:17 am

    Hermes well the 100km version has two stage engines.

    No. That is not true.

    As far as I can work out the Hermes missile is a two stage missile but the second stage does not have an engine at the moment... There is the solid rocket booster to get the missile up to a speed of 1.3km/s and then a small light narrow low drag coasting stage that is not powered or perhaps has a gas bleed motor that just overcomes or reduces drag in flight.

    When fired from a ground vehicle it is angled upwards and lofted towards the target in a fully ballistic trajectory.

    When fired horizontally from a helicopter its range is closer to 15-20km

    If you look at this current page:

    http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/multi-service-weapon-systems/germes-a

    Note to the right of the image of the helicopter there is a list headed System composition.
    Click on the link Containerised Hermes guided missile and it will bring up a small box with the detailed information about the helicopter launched missile.

    You will see the missile is smaller... the ground launched missile has a 210mm calibre booster that accelerates the missile to 1.3km/s, while the helicopter launched mode the booster is 170mm calibre and accelerates the missile to 1km per second and is fired more directly at the target... it is a bit like the difference between a tank gun firing at targets 3-5km away and an artillery piece using the similar ammo over much greater ranges lofted into the air.

    In both cases the missile is a 130mm calibre missile with a warhead of about 30kgs.

    The coasting stage needs to be light so the actual coasting stage will not be much heavier than the warhead... I have seen listings showing the second stage has a 27kg HE warhead and the entire second stage component is 30kgs... which is damn impressive.

    The ground launched missile is 130kgs in the launch container and the helicopter or aircraft launched missile is 110kgs in the launch container... so the difference is 20kgs of solid rocket fuel in the different sized solid rocket boosters.

    [quote]"The caliber of 207 mm taken from "Hermes" will not change either." if you click on that image 100km Hermes missile is used with a 3.5 meter length tube and 210mm caliber. So if the ramjet which of course will be the 2nd stage engine will mean that length wise it would be longer with a little more weight because article did say same caliber with folding wings so by bigger you mean longer length?[quote]

    The article is about a new version of Hermes where the second stage has a proper ramjet sustainer engine... where before it either had nothing or a very low thrust gas bleed rocket motor to overcome drag... if the stage was sitting on the ground and this rocket was running it wouldn't actually move the rocket, but when the missile is flying through the air the low thrust rocket greatly reduces the drag of the rocket in flight so it maintains its high flight speed for much much longer... they could put a high energy rocket in there but it would only burn for a few seconds and only increase speed a little and then when it burned out the missile would rapidly slow down because drag is increased by increased speed. By using a very low thrust rocket motor the motor can burn for several minutes, and while it wont speed the missile up in flight it will make it retain speed much better which means it will travel much further by travelling faster.

    This is used in artillery shells where a low power rocket motor is located in the rear of the shell and it blows gas out the back of the shell in flight to reduce drag... it is called base bleed in artillery shells and greatly increases range by helping the projectile to maintain a higher speed.

    All your calculations are interesting, but the original Hermes... either with no engine in the second stage or a base bleed rocket motor in the second stage relied on a big heavy solid rocket booster for its flight range. The ground launched one got extra range by being lofted into the air up to thinner colder air at altitude where drag is less and the missile can fly faster with lower drag, while the aircraft launched model seems to be launched directly towards a target... remember that information about that new missile for the Mi-28NM that had a 25km+ range and used an IIR seeker and datalink turned out to be Hermes...

    Well this is talking about adding a ramjet motor to the second stage... now a ramjet motor is flexible.... you can operate it in low thrust to counter drag and it would be much more efficient than any base bleed rocket motor because it is scooping up air as it moves so even a very small fuel burn will generate useful levels of thrust to maintain speed over enormous distances... and you can increase throttle to climb to thinner colder air where the missile can move faster because of lower drag.

    The point is that the missile probably needs to move at between 1km/s and 1.3km per second to reach the different ranges it reaches, but with having a ramjet there you can use fuel to accelerate to and maintain those speeds much more efficiently than using solid fuel.

    A solid fuel by weight is three quarters oxygen production and one quarter fuel to burn in that oxygen.

    So say the solid fuelled rockets weight 70kgs and 90kgs, and the final stage missiles would therefore weigh  40kgs for the air launched model and the ground launched missile would also be 40kgs because they are the same missile.

    So the shorter direct fire air launched missile (170mm calibre) is 70kgs + 40kgs = 110kgs, and the ground launched missile (210mm) is 90kgs + 40kgs = 130kgs.

    Both 40kg missiles are 130mm calibre, but the launch tube calibres are determined by the solid rocket booster sections... both tubes are 3.5m long.

    This new missile they are talking about... the missile stage will be heavier and larger calibre because it does not need to be a narrow low drag dart... it has its own motor and fuel and does not need to be accelerated to top speed by the solid rocket booster.

    It is clear they are using the 210mm calibre... and they say they will use the ground launched Hermes bigger 90kg 210mm calibre booster rocket motor, so the tube will be 210mm so it would make sense to use that space for the second stage... they mentioned the weight of the new missile will not exceed 150kgs, so that means the new missile will weigh 60kgs... but with a 57kg HE warhead we have a problem...

    The thing is that with a ramjet motor in the missile, they don't need the full length full power solid rocket booster as used in the ground launched model... in fact I would argue that they could halve its length and weight to perhaps 45kgs and still get enough thrust to accelerate the second stage to a useful speed and distance where its ramjet could take over...

    90kgs of solid rocket fuel means about 68kgs of material that just generates oxygen, with the remaining 22kgs being actual fuel burned in that oxygen rich environment.

    Cut it to 45kgs of solid rocket fuel and that means 34kgs of oxygen generating material and 11kgs of fuel, but it means you can then carry 45kgs of ramjet motor and fuel and guidance equipment.... say 2kgs for the ramjet motor itself... which is mostly titanium to resist the heat and empty space... another 15kgs of guidance stuff including control surfaces and motors, which leave 28kgs of fuel...  which means it carries 39kgs of actual fuel and for the solid rocket motor it carries 34kgs of oxygen generating material, but with 28kgs of ramjet fuel and it will scoop up the 49kgs of Oxygen to burn that fuel in flight.

    Most importantly it has energy management... it can climb to altitude and coast in a low engine thrust setting maintaining speed all the way and then a full throttle dive on the target.

    But why are they doing this?

    The key is the ramjet motor... they don't want a simple artillery shell type missile that is lofted towards the distant target and basically finds its target as it falls and then steers straight into that.

    They want a high speed manouvering target that is difficult to shoot down so they need an engine on the second stage.

    When it reaches its target area it does not matter if it left the tube and accelerated to 800m/s at solid rocket booster burn out or 1,300m/s... because it has a ramjet motor and can then climb and accelerate to much higher speeds if it needs to...

    With the older missile the faster it was fired the more energy it had to reach the target, but with a ramjet motor it can use the fuel much more efficiently and effectively.

    Nice development.

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    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:31 pm

    What will be the Klevok-D2 hypersonic missile system
    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research - Page 24 16045810

    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research - Page 24 16045811

    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research - Page 24 16045812

    More information in the link

    https://en.topwar.ru/176806-kakim-budet-giperzvukovoj-raketnyj-kompleks-klevok-d2.html

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    Post  thegopnik Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:10 am

    The only thing that made me sad(it was expected to happen anyway) is the timeframe of the missile, I was at least hoping in the mid-2020s instead of beginning 2030s to enter armed forces. I am assuming the Su-70 as shown by paralays drawings before has the same 1 meter width by 4.6 meter length weapon bay as the Su-57. So can we fit 8 of those fuckers in there if we were to give it an air to ground role?  Twisted Evil
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:00 am

    With exhaust thrust vectoring control it will only require fixed stabiliser fins but also be able to pull amazingly hard manouvers in flight... which would be valuable because it is supposed to get the ramjet motor to enable it to evade enemy air defence systems...

    Edit... a 2030 timescale is interesting.... they clearly think that in 10 years time HATO will have developed some sort of short range IADS to protect their forces and this is the solution to defeat them.

    Until then of course they will have standard Hermes missiles hitting targets out to 100km so it will be worth the wait.

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