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    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:16 am

    GarryB wrote:Until the sanctions are applied they are meaningless.

    If they are applied their simplest and cheapest option would be to buy those Chinese transports you say are modelled on the An-70... which would be very amusing because they could probably buy 50 for the price of the 10 A-400M aircraft... and with such a purchase they could probably justify replacing avionics and systems with Turkish systems and equipment and get into talks of international sales of a Turkish/Chinese version.

    They could also buy Il-476 aircraft instead of A-400Ms and do the same... replace some Russian components with Turkish components and offer to sell such modified aircraft to countries that would not normally buy Russian aircraft but are friendly to Turkey like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and places like Malaysia and Indonesia etc etc.

    When the US said Turkey couldn't have their F-35s because they bought S-400 I thought that was a lucky escape for Turkey because F-35 will just be too expensive to operate for such countries... and the S-400 is a very good system. But getting Il-476s or that Chinese transport instead of the A-400M might be another good deal for them to save money and get better aircraft for a better price...

    I mean Turkey was making wing components for a fifth gen fighter... there will be parts of large transport aircraft they could probably easily make for themselves too...

    Only a dumbass would buy planes from Ukraine or China. No experience in that industry for both.

    Antonov is dead since 1991. All their skilled engineers are long gone.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:13 am

    First of all why would China impose sanctions on Turkey...
    over the issue with her Uyghurs- Turkey harbors & supports them in Syria & C. Asia which China has investments in. 
    if China does not want the sale then Il-476s will certainly be much cheaper than anything Ukraine could make and anything Turkey buys from the EU. ..Ukraine doesn't have the capacity to upgrade anything, and would likely end up ripping Turkey off.
    By the time Russia gets her IL-476/8s & ready to sell more, the An-188 may be ready. It's not guaranteed that their price & support + operating costs will be le$$. Turkey isn't India to waste $Bs on aircraft from East & West. In fact, she's closer to Pakistan. The PAF uses only 4 IL-78s, & Ukraine is going to Upgrade them.
    ..for an order of 10 for Turkey and perhaps 3 more for the Ukraine it simply would not be worth it...
    Pakistan or some other nation may join in & order more. Even if not, mil. procurement is done regardless of the market. Look at the USAF- they planned to order dozens of F-22s & B-2s but ended up stopping their production at only double digits, with none exported. The Soviets & US produced 100s/dozens of An-12s/72/74s, IL-76s & C-17s respectively, but sold only a fraction of them abroad. C-141, C-5s & An-22/124s weren't exported at all.
    ..the EU has not imposed any sanctions on them and even if they did they could say they are leaving HATO and are going to close all HATO bases in Turkey.. 
    NATO won't shed any tears if Turkey leaves- & some even called for it to be expelled.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:27 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    By the time russia gets her IL-476/8s & ready to sell more, the An-188 may be ready. It's not guaranteed that their price & support + operating costs will be le$$. Turkey isn't India to waste $Bs on aircraft both East & West. In fact, she's closer to Pakistan. The PAF uses only 4 IL-78s, & [url=https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27134/Ukraine_to_Upgrade_Pakistan_Air_Force_Il_78_Tanker_Plane] Ukraine is going to Upgrade 
    Ok the ukraine is trying to Scam Pakistan in doing repair and overhaul on some aircrafts they had in storage and sold to that country a few years ago. I am curious to know where they will take spares and new parts (maybe from China?)

    Repair made by the Ukraine on russian produced equipment are already famous



    Pakistan or some other nation may join in & order more. Even if not, mil. procurement is done regardless of the market. Look at the USAF- they planned to order dozens of F-22s & B-2s but ended up stopping their production at only double digits, with none exported. The Soviets & US produced 100s/dozens of An-12s/72/74s, IL-76s & C-17s respectively, but sold only a fraction of them abroad. C-141, C-5s & An-22/124s weren't exported at all.

    US is printing dollars out of thin air, they could afford to waste money on their defence products.  The Ukraine and turkey are not in the same situation.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:36 am

    According to the director of the An-188 program Vladimir Shmyrev, such aircraft are designed in the world for billions of dollars within 8-10 years, and "Ukraine will make it cheaper and build in 4-4.5 years.".. 
    So what are the prospects for the An-188? According to Antonov's estimates for 2016, the world market demand for An-70 aircraft in the period until 2035 is 300 aircraftAt the same time, other Ukrainian transport workers, according to the government, may be required in the following quantities: 260 An-132 until 2035 and 70 An-178 until 2027. If we recall Antonov's plans to produce only 70 aircraft (including passenger ones) in a few years, one gets the impression that the company does not even hope to take full advantage of the potential demand. Nevertheless, Antonov is confident that it is the An-188 that will become the basis for cooperation with the world's leading aviation corporations. Where are we going? The traditional sales markets of Antonov are South America, Africa and Asia. First of all, we should talk about India, which has extensive experience in operating hundreds of ASs since the days of the USSR, and, by the way, it is time to replace old machines. Two years ago, Ukroboronprom emphasized the interest of Indian companies in An-188, An-124, An-178 and other models of the Ukrainian manufacturerNaturally, the An-188 is also needed by partners from Turkey, which has the second largest army in NATO after the United States and is constantly looking at military transporters. The Turks are ready not only to take part in the production of the aircraft, but also to promote it on the world market. And here the developers prudently relied on compliance with NATO standards. However, it is too early to talk about the number of sold An-188s, because the plane is still "paper". Success can be considered if over the next decade it is possible to lift into the air and send to customers at least several dozen of these machines.
    https://www.dsnews.ua/economics/udastsya-li-bumazhnomu-an-188-peretyanut-na-sebya-gruzy-boeing-08052018220000



    As of 1 Feb 2012 - The cost of one An-70 was about $67M.  A few years from now the An-188 would cost less as they'll be priced to sell fast & they' generate income from their support. To compare,1 IL-476 costs ~$ 45,843,260M 


    So, time will tell!
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:42 am

    These Antonov models are all vapourware.   This is nothing but propaganda designed to pacify Ukrs in their choices.   It is routine
    for Banderite talking heads to claim absurd things to compensate for their sad reality.

    I recall liberasts claiming that the Sukhoi SSJ-100 was vapourware.   Not a squeak about these fictional models from anyone.
    Antonov has already proven that it cannot deliver in the case of An-170 sales to Peru.   A Google search spews forth
    dozens of BS links claiming this sale is on track.   It is not.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:...So, time will tell!

    Time won't tell shit because there's nothing to tell

    The Ukraine is poorest most technologically backwards country on the continent and they are trying to BS people that they will pull off something that even much wealthier and more advanced nations are incapable of pulling off

    Blackberry has better odds of dethroning Apple than Antonov does of making new aircraft




    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:...So, time will tell!
    Time won't tell shit because there's nothing to tell
    Blackberry has better odds of dethroning Apple than Antonov does of making new aircraft

    Time will tell to those who will listen. Antonov only designs & flies aircraft, but the plants make them.
    The An-188 isn't going to be all new as it's reengined An-70. Also their An-77 civ. version can get props it needs from Russia, if not from elsewhere. $ talks!

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:21 pm

    Tsavo, the picture below shows how many foreign components are present in the SSJ100. Now Russia is spending a large amount of money (almost comparable to relaunching a similar program) to fully russianise the aircraft and produce in Russia domestic (and modern) alternatives to the parts previously imported.
    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 12 Sukhoi_ss_1546851675

    Something like this is neither easy nor cheap.

    To produce an70 or an188 or whatever, Antonov should do a similar exercise, but to replace the Russian components. The end product will not be cheap.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:47 am

    They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77  Only the propellers r from Russia. 
    The An-188/170 won't need any Russian parts either.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:37 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:[size=37]They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77  Only the propellers r from Russia. [/size]
    [size=37]The An-188/170 won't need any Russian parts either.[/size]

    My understanding is that that was only wishful thinking, e.g. a presentation to attract foreign investors and customers.

    Not much more different from what a uni student can do as a small project in his spare time for extra credits before an exam.


    I have not heard about planned testing of the new hardware and neither of the planned testing of the aircraft with the new hardware.

    I was  not even able to see any articles mentioning a request for informations (RFI) or Requests for proposals (RFP) to foreign  firms to replace the russian parts.

    I mean, these kinds of things go under the radar if they are for some sensitive projects or something that the company would like to keep secret for a while. However, in case of Antonov, it would be the opposite, they would like to advertise it as much as possible, to show that they are actually doing something about it and not just some PowerPoint presentations with some nice graphs and drawing in them, and maybe a small plastic model of their intended product...

    In the case of the russianised SSJ100 Russia started the process one or 2 years ago and the aircraft won't be ready before 2024, and it with massive investment from Russia.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:26 pm

    Only a dumbass would buy planes from Ukraine or China. No experience in that industry for both.

    To be fair countries with no other choice would of course, but certainly Ukraine would not be a first choice for anyone...

    By the time Russia gets her IL-476/8s & ready to sell more, the An-188 may be ready.

    Il-476s are in production now... the factories exist and are building aircraft... An-188 is an idea that does not exist even in prototype form... and is a pipe dream between countries that don't have the funding or the need to do anything about making them.

    It's not guaranteed that their price & support + operating costs will be le$$.

    Of course it is... Russia is likely to buy hundreds of Il-476s to replace its existing Il-76s and to replace the 100 An-70s the VDV are not going to be buying now, and export customers who couldn't or weren't allowed to buy C-17s will be waiting to replace their Il-76s too.

    The PAF uses only 4 IL-78s, & Ukraine is going to Upgrade them.

    Hahahaha... upgrade in this case means strip them of parts for their own planes and then burn down the hangar and claim the insurance...

    Look at the USAF- they planned to order dozens of F-22s & B-2s but ended up stopping their production at only double digits, with none exported.

    Turning planes that were sold as being expensive but affordable into extremely expensive white elephants that are hangar queens and financially too much of a burden for a country that spends more than the other 20 top spending countries on the planet combined.

    Not a path to follow really.

    The Soviets & US produced 100s/dozens of An-12s/72/74s, IL-76s & C-17s respectively, but sold only a fraction of them abroad. C-141, C-5s & An-22/124s weren't exported at all.

    They actually sold quite a few Il-76s...

    NATO won't shed any tears if Turkey leaves- & some even called for it to be expelled.

    Are you crazy... the Pentagon would go into melt down and start a military coup if a US president kicked Turkey out of HATO... it is more important to HATO in the US view than France.

    It is not an accident that the biggest US bases are there and their nukes along with Italy and Germany...

    And they are moving out of Germany towards the east...


    Repair made by the Ukraine on russian produced equipment are already famous

    Infamous...

    Another case of promises made not quite matching reality. The only real question is do they know they are lying or do they think they can actually do it...

    According to the director of the An-188 program Vladimir Shmyrev, such aircraft are designed in the world for billions of dollars within 8-10 years, and "Ukraine will make it cheaper and build in 4-4.5 years."..

    Together with Russia how long did An-70 development take... it is not just a case of taking something that exists and slapping on a new set of engines... this will need essentially a full redesign because most of the avionics were Russian.

    And here the developers prudently relied on compliance with NATO standards. However, it is too early to talk about the number of sold An-188s, because the plane is still "paper".

    So all they have to do is take a design they never built in any quantity and revise its design to meet HATO standards... build it... test it... solve all the problems and then put it into serial production... yeah... be ready next week... if you pay in advance... the full amount...

    As of 1 Feb 2012 - The cost of one An-70 was about $67M .

    The cost per aircraft might have been 67 million when the Russians had orders for 100 aircraft for the VDV and would subsidise production and pay for half the development costs, but right now with one An-70 and all the development costs in one aircraft it probably cost more than a C-17.

    A few years from now the An-188 would cost less as they'll be priced to sell fast & they' generate income from their support. To compare,1 IL-476 costs ~$ 45,843,260M

    45 million for an Il-476 is a bargain and it will get cheaper as production numbers increase, but of course export aircraft will likely cost double that.... 90 million for Turkey or Pakistan... but that is still much cheaper than an A-400M which are about 175 million Euros.... which would probably be about 200 million US I am guessing... that is what Germany paid for theirs... the Il-476 has more flight range and much better payload and is faster...

    Also their An-77 civ. version can get props it needs from Russia, if not from elsewhere. $ talks!

    Dollars do talk and the Ukraine and Antonov don't have any spare dollars... that is their problem since they cut off communication and trade with their primary and main customer... Russia.

    Russia didn't do it.... the Ukraine did.

    They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77 Only the propellers r from Russia.

    So they said it does not have Russian parts and the propellers are Russian... so they lied?

    Surprised?

    Developing new aircraft is easy when you have no problem with telling lies, but customers wont invest money if you get caught lying... guess what....
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:14 pm

    My understanding is that that was only wishful thinking, e.g. a presentation to attract foreign investors and customers.
    they have 2 An-70s & will need to have new parts for them anyway, so import substitution was needed regardless for any future orders. 
    https://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/life/_bez-rossijskih-detalej-antonov-pokazal-novyj-samolet-an77/833522

    Il-476s are in production now... the factories exist and are building aircraft...
    Russia is likely to buy hundreds of Il-476s to replace its existing Il-76s and to replace the 100 An-70s the VDV are not going to be buying now, 
    only 1 plant makes them & the VKS needs a few dozen of them 1st to replace old IL-76/78s & A-50s before any r built for export. Russia would rather modernize older IL-76s at other plants & sell them instead.

    It is not an accident that the biggest US bases are there and their nukes along with Italy and Germany...
    Erdogan himself will/may reduce their footprint to avoid another coup & improve relations with the RF, if nothing else. He now needs NATO a lot less, if at all, than NATO/US needs him. I heard the US removed all nukes from Turkey already. 

    Together with Russia how long did An-70 development take... it is not just a case of taking something that exists and slapping on a new set of engines... this will need essentially a full redesign because most of the avionics were Russian.
    new avionics can't force a full redesign; only a new wing is needed for 4/2 jets.

    Dollars do talk and the Ukraine and Antonov don't have any spare dollars... that is their problem since they cut off communication and trade with their primary and main customer... Russia.
    for that, they'll have the $. Trade is still going on & recently Putin lifted some restrictions on it, as per Ukrainians request. Pro-Russian sentiments r now increasing in Ukraine.

    So they said it does not have Russian parts and the propellers are Russian... so they lied?
    they "forgot" to mention it, but I saw it elsewhere. Props could be obtained from the 3rd countries should Russians refuse to sell them; the engines market is separate from the airframes market. Airbus uses American, Canadian, & UK made engines & Boeing uses Canadian & UK made engines, despite those companies neck to neck competition. 


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:40 am

    they have 2 An-70s & will need to have new parts for them anyway, so import substitution was needed regardless for any future orders.

    Ukraine needing new parts is not the same as Ukraine getting new parts... where are these parts going to magically appear from?

    Who is going to pay for them?

    They can't be from Russia so that means europe or china... and custom made parts for two planes means they will be super expensive because they will only be selling in tiny quantities for one customer...

    only 1 plant makes them & the VKS needs a few dozen of them 1st to replace old IL-76 /78s & A-50s before any r built for export. Russia would rather modernize older IL-76s at other plants & sell them instead.

    If they are important and they get enough orders both local and international they could set up production in other countries... if Iran ordered 30 then they could probably assemble them in Iran... even the US has a civilian operator of the aircraft for fire fighting...


    Erdogan himself will/may reduce their footprint to avoid another coup & improve relations with the RF, if nothing else. He now needs NATO a lot less, if at all, than NATO/US needs him. I heard the US removed all nukes from Turkey already.

    HATO doesn't keep Turkey safe... that is just HATO propaganda... HATO for Turkey is someone to exercise with and that is becoming more hostile too, and an obligation to spend money on shit they don't need.

    new avionics can't force a full redesign; only a new wing is needed for 4/2 jets.

    A jet and a turboprop use different wings because they operate at different speeds. Unless you don't give a shit and want to burn more fuel than you need to because good enough is OK...

    for that, they'll have the $. Trade is still going on & recently Putin lifted some restrictions on it, as per Ukrainians request. Pro-Russian sentiments r now increasing in Ukraine.

    Poro came to power in a coup... that can happen again when the Ukraine starts getting too friendly with Russia, which is why Russia can certainly lift sanctions against the Ukraine... they didn't want to put the Ukraine under sanction in the first place they were only responding to Ukrainian sanctions Ukraines new buddies pushed them to implement...

    they "forgot" to mention it, but I saw it elsewhere.

    They make planes how could they forget... simple answer... they didn't forget... they lied.

    Airbus uses American, Canadian, & UK made engines & Boeing uses Canadian & UK made engines, despite those companies neck to neck competition.

    If it is that easy then why are they using Russian props still? Surely if it is such a no brainer that would be the first thing they fixed... except if they can't find a suitable replacement...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:16 am

    They can't be from Russia so that means europe or china... 
    If they are important and they get enough orders both local and international they could set up production in other countries... if Iran ordered 30 then they could probably assemble them in Iran...
    most of them would be interchangeable with An-132/158/178 parts; Turkey could produce them since they plan to produce An-188s anyway.
    I doubt any single nation outside Russia will need more than 10-20 IL-476s, so they'll need to wait till the VKS gets them 1st in sufficient #s before ordering any.
    If it is that easy then why are they using Russian props still? Surely if it is such a no brainer that would be the first thing they fixed... except if they can't find a suitable replacement...
    this is "the exception that proves the rule": there r no other Russian parts on the An-77. Perhaps they didn't find an affordable off the shelf alternative yet, or it needs to be custom made for this plane.
    It may turn out to be easier to make a new wing for 4 jets to produce the An-188 & discard the An-77 option:
    There are planned as many as three versions of the drive, which due to the arrangement of high-wing with classic, single gondolas, is not a problem:
    An-188-100 is to be equipped with four Iwczenko-Progress D-436-148FM engines, also used in An-148/158 passenger aircraft and An-178 transport aircraft.
    An-188-110 will have a new type of AI-28 engines, which Iwczenko-Progress is currently working on. They are created as the successor to the D-436 family, but with higher efficiency and lower fuel consumption.
    An-188-120 is to be the most "NATO" version, equipped with CFM56-7B CFM International (CFMI) engines with the FADEC digital control system, used in the Boeing 737NG aircraft.
    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com/2018/05/analysis-antonov-188-competition-for.html
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:55 am

    Tsavo, the plant producing il-76 has recently installed the new production lines allowing production of up to 18 aircrafts per year.  Until now they did not increase the production because they were basically selling them at a loss for internal military contracts.  

    This year they produced 3 il76 until now, but they can increase the rate if there order for them and if they make money on them.


    Anyway apparently recently new contracts solved the issue.


    However if there is an interested customer this problem does not exist, since the export price is much higher.

    It is a similar thing to the frigates build for India in the Baltic shipyards and in Yantar (Kaliningrad). Each of them was built in less than 3 years. When the equipment is already existing and there is money, the ships were built at a good pace.


    So, even if they increase the production rate for Russian internal request to 10 il76 per year, there is still excess production capability available for export customers.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:09 am

    https://www.obzor.lt/news/n65361.html

    According to this article, Peru may abandon Ukrainian An-178 in favor of Russian aircraft...

    It is a bit strange, however, since in the article they mention the il76 (about 3 times bigger than the an178) and the il112v (about 3 times smaller).

    If they want something fast, they could get a refurbished il76MD (with D30 engines).

    Unfortunately neither the il276 nor the tu330 are near serial production (they have not even decided if to pursue both of them and, even if all the equipment and internal systems were already available, they still need a relatively long testing phase).


    Anyway, another "success" of modern Antonov

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:17 pm

    Antonov would have been still successfull if they had shared with the russians the company.

    Now they will let the company rust and loose what was a successfull and pretty good firm.

    Stupidity has no limit.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:51 pm

    Isos wrote:Antonov would have been still successfull if they had shared with the russians the company.

    Now they will let the company rust and loose what was a successfull and pretty good firm.

    Stupidity has no limit.

    Modern Antonov is just a cargo airline (like a smaller version of Volga Dnepr) which also owns a design bureau and two production plants.

    The design bureau lost most of the capable engineers, and the production plants in Kiev and in Kharkov (that in soviet times were totally independent from Antonov) also lost most of the workforce and do not have modern equipment. The only value that those plants have now is their locations. Of course they could be be modernised and used to produce something, but who could be interested, for sure not Airbus or Boeing.

    Turkey could have been interested, but they would want to move production in their own country, and have no need for factories in the ukraine.

    For Russia it would make much more sense to rebuild from scratch a brand new factory in Saratov.

    The brand may still be saved if in the future it will be someway aquired by Russia. It could be more or less partially merged with ilyushin but keeping two different design bureaus (maybe moving the new Antonov in Saratov or in Samara) that cooperates and exchange information and technical solutions. A similar thing is already being done for Mil and Kamov and for Sukhoi and MiG.

    If something like that could start now, I would even think about rebranding the new Baikal (an2 successor) and the new aircrafts based on the Let-410 and let610 under Antonov name, for a start.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:18 pm

    I was thinking about the 90s. Doing that today is impossible since their relations are dead and Russia already invested in its own projects.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:53 pm

    Isos wrote:I was thinking about the 90s. Doing that today is impossible since their relations are dead and Russia already invested in its own projects.
    yeah, I was not talking about cooperating with country 404, just salvaging the brand.

    Oleg Antonov was a Russian engineer, not a Ukrainian one. It is said to see his name so tarnished

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    Post  kvs Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:36 pm

    When Russia took on the debts of the USSR it should have declared that all intellectual property of the USSR is mutually owned
    by the constituent parts of the USSR. The notion that Antonov is a "Ukrainian" company is absurd. Ukraine should not be
    able to claim an exclusive rights to any Antonov IP.

    But the problem is that we had compardor, 5th column maggot Yeltsin in charge. This is the worm that let Ukraine grab Sevastopol
    when it annexed Crimea.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:49 pm

    kvs wrote:When Russia took on the debts of the USSR it should have declared that all intellectual property of the USSR is mutually owned
    by the constituent parts of the USSR.   The notion that Antonov is a "Ukrainian" company is absurd.   Ukraine should not be
    able to claim an exclusive rights to any Antonov IP.  

    But the problem is that we had compardor, 5th column maggot Yeltsin in charge.   This is the worm that let Ukraine grab Sevastopol
    when it annexed Crimea.  
    correct. Unfortunately Russia did a lot of mistakes also after the 90s in their dealings with country 404. Since they founded most of the work made by Antonov after the separation of USSR, they should have explicitly written contracts specifying Russian IP ownership at least for the new projects (as western firms always do when they cooperate with other companies).

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:24 am

    It is all being solved at the cost of the Antonov name...

    The Il-276 or Tu-330 or both will be made simply because the An-12s are on their last legs and need replacements shortly.

    Even if they built them with temporary engines to start with and fit their proper optimised engines later it is not that big a deal.

    Regarding Il-476 production rates they have renegotiated the contracts to make it more valuable to produce the planes currently ordered which will start to fill gaps and create a basis that other countries can see it is a full production item that will be in service in numbers and wont be a risk to lease or buy and they will start putting in orders for their own aircraft.

    Russia did a lot of things to support and help Ukraine and got very little love in return... it was an unhappy marriage and now they are separated they can go on with separate lives...

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:48 pm

    http://www.donbass-insider.com/2020/11/20/sale-motor-sich-to-china-ukraine-to-lose-3-5-billion-to-us/

    China is suing the Ukraine for the losses due to delays and lack of motor sich sales, and they are asking 3.5 billions US dollars!
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:05 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:http://www.donbass-insider.com/2020/11/20/sale-motor-sich-to-china-ukraine-to-lose-3-5-billion-to-us/

    China is suing the Ukraine for the losses due to delays and lack of motor sich sales, and they are asking 3.5 billions US dollars!

    The Ukraine is willing to pay $3.50 lol1

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