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    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:31 am

    Should be kept in mind that the Ukrainian projects were Soviet projects so while Russia has little benefit in wanting any Antonovs in there inventory in the near or foreseeable future, even if Antonov got big contracts to produce their existing types like An-12 or An-32 upgrades they would seriously struggle to deliver because many of the components for those aircraft were made in Russia...

    It is not really Russias problem any more... the leadership of the Ukraine has made it so.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:01 pm

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-27/antonov-lands-domestic-order-178


    Antonov Lands Domestic Order for An-178
    by Peter Dunai
    June 27, 2019, 12:06 PM


    Kiev-based Antonov Enterprise, part of the UkrOboronProm (UOP) Concern, together with the Ukrainian Ministry of Interior (representing the State Emergency Service and the Ukrainian National Guard), is working on details of a contract to deliver 13 An-178 multi-purpose medium transport aircraft.
    A preliminary agreement was reached at the Paris Air Show between Arsen Avakov, Minister of Internal Affairs; Pavlo Bukin, the head of UOP; and Oleksandr Donts, the president of Antonov. “These are the first aircraft with Ukrainian and European components,” Avakov tweeted on June 17. “The first demonstration flight is scheduled to take place this autumn, and the aircraft will enter service in three years.”

    Estimated at $600 to $800 million, the contract is scheduled to be signed this fall, UOP announced. It will be the first domestic order for the An-178, which first flew in 2015. The 13 aircraft are expected to be built using Ukrainian, U.S., and European components, replacing parts previously provided by Russia.

    The An-178s will form part of the new United System of Aviation and Civil Protection (ESABtCZ in Ukrainian), which is scheduled to become operational by 2022. The An-178s will join 55 Airbus helicopters in the program, the acquisition of which was announced in 2018. Missions for these aircraft involves firefighting and emergency operations, in addition to supporting the country’s National Guard in relocating assets and troops.

    Acquiring the 13 An-178s for the ESABtCZ also serves the purpose of introducing the aircraft to foreign buyers, as well as attracting foreign investors to the Ukrainian aircraft industry, said Bukin. Ukraine’s aircraft industry is on a path to remove the “Russian connection” by replacing Russian technology and spare parts, rebuilding the industry with Western partners, and observing NATO standards as far as military aviation is concerned.

    In line with creating a solid base for the independent Ukrainian aircraft industry, UOP also announced in mid-June that Plant 410CA (a key aviation industry asset) is prioritizing the modernization of An-26 military transport aircraft for the country’s air force at an accelerated pace. Upgrading with Ukrainian- and European-made components involves practically all of the major systems, including avionics, radio-electronics, and navigation systems to enable joint operations with NATO forces.

    Plant 410CA is also participating in India’s efforts to upgrade and modernize its 100-plus Antonov military aircraft, namely the upgrade of Indian Air Force An-32s to An-32RE standard. The Ukrainian partner supplies the air force with avionics, which together with other systems of foreign manufacture are being installed in the IAF An-32s.

    In another development at the 2019 Paris Air Show, the UAE defense ministry expressed interest in unmanned aerial vehicles made by Antonov, the head of UkrOboronProm announced after meeting a senior UAE defense ministry official on the sidelines of the show. “Currently the most promising markets for us are opening in the Middle East and Southeast Asia,” he added.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:42 pm

    https://naukatehnika.com/motor-sich-interesy-kitaya-rossii-i-ssha.html


    Chinese investment company Skyrizon has resumed attempts to acquire Motor Sich, the Ukrainian engine-building company.
    An investment company based in Beijing, which specializes in investments in the aviation industry, has renewed its attempts to acquire a stake in a Ukrainian engine-building company. The corresponding application is considered by the Ukrainian anti-monopoly authority. About it reports the Global Times.   The publication, referring to a note on the reorganization of Skyrizon and Beijing Xinwei Technology, published on July 12 by the Shanghai Stock Exchange, notes that the application for the purchase of Motor Sich shares to the competent authorities of Ukraine was submitted on June 7 and accepted for consideration on June 21. The relevant decision of the Antimonopoly Committee of Ukraine is expected on July 22.  


    Skyrizon Aircraft and Ukroboronprom want joint control over Motor Sich. To this end, as part of a multi-stage concentration, Skyrizon Aircraft, which now owns a 9.99% stake, Motor Sich plans to gain control of more than 50% over other offshore shareholders of the Ukrainian enterprise - Granum Corporation (Panama, has 9.30% stake), Likatron Enterprises Limited (Cyprus, 9.99%) and Reckoner Investment Holdings Limited (Cyprus, 9.99%). According to SMIDA, the shareholders of Motor Sich are also Chinese citizen Wang Xinley (5.01%), Tinstar Holdings S.A. (Belize, 6.23%), Business house Helena, AG (Panama), OJSC Trading house “Elena” (Ukraine, 9.30%, the company belongs to Belize offshore company Montagne ltd), Motor-Intercoms LLC (Ukraine, the beneficiary is Xu Changshun from China, 9.70%).  Between Motor Sich JSC and Beijing Skyrizon Aviation Industry Investment Co., Ltd. (People's Republic of China) signed a Memorandum of Cooperation to create an aircraft engine manufacturing plant in Chongqing, People's Republic of China, in fulfillment of which a working group was created from the number of specialists of Motor Sich JSC who go to China. It has been established that Beijing Skyrizon Aviation Industry Investment Co., Ltd. is the owner of 100% of the share capital of Hong Kong Skyrizon Holding Limited (Hong Kong), which in turn is the owner of 100% of the share capital of Skyrizon Aircraft Holdings Limited. The latter company is now trying, together with Ukroboronprom, to obtain permission for the AMCU to concentrate.   If approved, Skyrizon may own more than 50 percent of Motor Sich shares. The publication reminds that Beijing’s previous attempts to buy a stake in the engine-building company from Kiev had met with resistance from Washington. Photo: diana-mihailova.livejournal.com According to the Global Times, China has 13 types and more than 1,200 units of aircraft engines manufactured by Motor Sich. Buying a Ukrainian manufacturer will allow Beijing to reduce the lag in technology, and Kiev will ensure the loading of its own enterprise, which is prohibited from military-technical cooperation with Moscow.     In 2018, The Washington Times published a material in which the sale of Motor Sich by the Chinese was called a “backstab” because, in this way, Ukraine helps Chinese competitors in the US catch up in aircraft manufacturing.

    I still hope that Alexandrovsk (Imperial Russian name for Zaporozhe), together with the rest of south east ukraine and its industries will eventually come back to Russia.
    Being in chinese hands is better than American, but could create problem if/ when novorussia will rejoin Russia. Maybe Russia could do the same and invest in taiwan industries...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:18 pm

    https://112.international/ukraine-top-news/ukraine-wins-tender-to-produce-an-178-aircraft-for-peru-42671.html

    Ukraine wins tender to produce An-178 aircraft for Peru
    14:47, 15 August 2019


    Peru’s tender evaluated “the performance characteristics, delivery terms, extended warranties, personnel training, and other social and manufacturing preferences proposed by the bidders”. Antonov won the tender
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:20 pm

    Ukraine sells its last plane: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2696206.html
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:39 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Ukraine sells its last plane: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2696206.html

    Kyiv, August 21, 2019, 19:00 — REGNUM

    The victory of the an-178 Transporter in the tender held in Peru, Ukraine puts an end to the development of the national aircraft industry. The paradoxical conclusion is justified by experts of the newspaper "Military-industrial courier".

    The tender announced by the Peruvian police provided for the delivery of only one military transport aircraft. An-178 and there is a single copy collected for display at aviation exhibitions. It will be sold in Peru, the other is not given.

    Serial production of the aircraft is impossible for at least two reasons. The "exhibition" model is made with design errors, it has broken alignment, so for demonstration flights at air shows in Farnborough and Le Bourget behind the cockpit placed a ballast of steel sheets weighing 1.3 tons. Not less than a third of the an-178 components are produced in Russia, cooperation ties are broken at the will of Kiev, to replace them with Western analogues will require years of redesign, while import substitution, if it is established, will dramatically increase the cost of the aircraft, making it uncompetitive. Previously, Ukraine has "sold" the An-178 to Azerbaijan, Iraq and China, but the transaction remained on paper.

    Kiev's hopes for the support of the West independent from Russia aviation industry were justified exactly the opposite. The United States has banned the Ukrainian leadership cooperation with China, offering to organize a joint production of the world's largest transport an-225 "Mriya". The West does not need an aircraft. His interest is to finally bury Antonov engineering and design school.

    Ukraine missed the chance to establish serial production of aircraft. The reason is on the surface: refusal to cooperate with Russia. Time has shown that it is impossible to achieve success in high-tech industries outside the cooperation inherited from the USSR. The rupture of decades of established relations leads only to the collapse — closed aircraft factories in Tbilisi and Tashkent are an example.

    There were plans to finish and put on the wing of the second instance of the world's largest transport an-225 "Mriya". It was said that this aircraft is of particular interest to the PLA, military transport aircraft of China such a giant is extremely necessary. At the level of the Antonov company's management, statements were even made that Ukrainian heavy trucks would be produced on Chinese territory after the sale of the license and design documentation.

    But for three years, cooperation with China on the An-225 has not moved. Perhaps buyers are not satisfied with the price, but more likely the version of the us ban on a potentially dangerous deal for the US. Washington's influence on post-Maidan Kiev is limitless, and the States, of course, are against the transfer of any advanced technologies to China. Whatever it was, to finish from the existing reserve of the second An-225 Ukrainians failed.

    Some means there designers have learned to make money on the side. First of all, it is the modernization of previously produced in China aircraft line "Antonov" and, of course, participation in the design of the Chinese transport y-20, recently launched into mass production. The characteristic features of the Antonov school of engineering are easy to read in its appearance. There is no doubt about the commercial participation of the Ukrainian enterprise "Motor-Sich" in the so-called breakthrough of China to create new jet engines.

    In the end, the independent aviation industry over the past three years has not been earned by any of the hryvnia. Orders for repair and restoration work on the old aircraft will never be a full compensation for the new serial production. The number of problems in Ukrainian aircraft manufacturers has increased significantly. The reputation of the industry was buried by a series of corruption scandals.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:31 am

    The clowns in Washington are real autistic losers. They have maximized the rate of decomposition of Banderastan. What they hope
    to achieve with this is hard to understand at face value. Turning Ukraine into some Somalia is not going to produce a bulwark against
    Russia. In fact, it will not even produce a destabilizing influence. Instead, Banderastan will simply depopulate.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:47 am

    kvs wrote:The clowns in Washington are real autistic losers.   They have maximized the rate of decomposition of Banderastan.   What they hope
    to achieve with this is hard to understand at face value.   Turning Ukraine into some Somalia is not going to produce a bulwark against
    Russia.  In fact, it will not even produce a destabilizing influence.   Instead, Banderastan will simply depopulate.  

    That was their end game. They want to stir enough trouble in Ukraine to make it easy to rob it of its resources and any skilled workers left, while creating a rather poor and easy to control country.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:48 am

    Some say that there r plans to make Ukraine the next home for the Israeli Jews should Israel seize to exist.
    Anyway, the plan to use Ukraine against & provoke Russia failed- as judoka, Putin knows how to use his opponent's strength against him.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:00 pm

    Motor Sich Shares Deal Postponed
    http://www.ng.ru/cis/2019-09-05/5_7669_ukraina.html?print=Y
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:28 am

    The Ministry of the Interior will buy 13 An-178s.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:27 pm

    Interview: Alexander Kava, Ukraine’s former deputy minister for infrastructure
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:17 am

    From last year:
    THE POWER OF PAPER LOVE. WILL ERDOGAN SHOW PUTIN THE UKRAINIAN AN-188?
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:29 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:From last year:
    THE POWER OF PAPER LOVE. WILL ERDOGAN SHOW PUTIN THE UKRAINIAN AN-188?
    Bah, with the CFM engine and American components it would be basically only a copy of the il76, but with lower payload and range, and depending on the goodwill of western partners to be built and delivered... That would work so well for countries like Turkey or Venezuela...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:27 am

    Have no idea why they mention Putin in that title... that article is about a replacement for the An-70, except that it isn't. The engine was made by motor sich, but the propeller blades were Russian, so this new replacement for an aircraft that never entered service is going to have turbofan engines.

    The only use for the An-70 was for the VDV, but if you take away the turboprop engines that allow it to fly slower then it makes more sense for Russia to just use Il-476s... faster, cheaper, better performance, Russian design, already in production.

    This new design, the An-188 makes no sense for Russia because the Ukraine have been a pain in the ass in the past and are unlikely to change so they are better off ignoring Antonov products and replace them in their own service as fast as they can.

    For the Ukraine it is obviously a problem because as mentioned in the article:

    The main cause of downtime (of Antonov production)- the gap of economic ties with Russia, which supplies about half of the components itself was a major buyer.

    First of all the gap was initiated by the Ukraine itself and Antonovs main economic market is Russia, which they have cut off.

    They can talk about Turkey saving them, but I doubt it...

    Bah, with the CFM engine and American components it would be basically only a copy of the il76, but with lower payload and range, and depending on the goodwill of western partners to be built and delivered... That would work so well for countries like Turkey or Venezuela...

    It would basically give the US control of sales, and the countries they will be allowed to sell to likely wont want them...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:20 am

    The main interesting thing of that aircraft was the engine.

    Apparently three spool engine could be advantageous for a turboprop, since the Low pressure turbine is driving only the propeller via a reduction gear and not also a booster (a
    an additional compressor before the HP compressor, running at the same speed as the turbine.

    Also the engine TP-400, for the problematic airbus A400M has a similar configuration, but they had even more issues, since at least 4 countries were cooperating on that engine, and I am not talking about small subcontractors, but as main manufacturers (think about political issues between Russia and the Ukraine, but squared).

    As we said before, Russia is developing, anyway a big turboshaft engine derived from the PD14 (twin spool). I am sure that a turboprop version will follow, and that could be used for an Yak-44 or for a turboprop version of the tu-330 or the il76 (or even for a renewed an-70, if in the meanwhile they acquire Antonov or decide to produce that aircraft under a Russian name)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:15 am

    A turboprop powered Il-476 would have the range and payload capacity they want and also the reduced speed they require as well for the VDV.

    I would think the Tu-330 would be too small for the job, and I can see Antonov burning down their own factories and machines and equipment before being Russian owned... the An-70 was what they wanted, but it wasn't perfected yet... there was still work to do, so modifying an aircraft design they do own makes rather more sense than pining after something that is lost to them now.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:44 am

    GarryB wrote:A turboprop powered Il-476 would have the range and payload capacity they want and also the reduced speed they require as well for the VDV.

    I would think the Tu-330 would be too small for the job, and I can see Antonov burning down their own factories and machines and equipment before being Russian owned... the An-70 was what they wanted, but it wasn't perfected yet... there was still work to do, so modifying an aircraft design they do own makes rather more sense than pining after something that is lost to them now.
    apart from the very valuable land where the hangars and factory exists, and logistic connections to their private airfields to test the aircrafts, I do not believe they have much of modern equipment there that will be useful for production of modern airplanes. As long as they do not sell the land plots to IKEA and build shopping malls in the middle of the former production plants in Kiev and in Kharkov, new factories and production lines can be build there, even if it will not be cheap. Years of neglect left probably that plant in a sorry state... If they burn the equipment down it will be a loss, but for the history museums that won't be able to host their equipment
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:11 pm

    All those plants could still be used for maintenance, overhauls & upgrades even in the absence of new orders. China &/ later Russia could also invest in them.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:19 am

    apart from the very valuable land where the hangars and factory exists,

    No real shortage of land in Russia... and they get more return on investments in their own country than they would from a hostile foreign state...

    All those plants could still be used for maintenance, overhauls & upgrades even in the absence of new orders. China &/ later Russia could also invest in them.

    Could be... but why?

    For Russia they could invest in their own factories and air fields and benefit directly from that, rather than saving something for an ungrateful neighbour...

    For China, there is probably a few things that might have value that they could either use or make some money on, but it really isn't worth it in the long run.

    They wont thank you for it, and most likely if things don't work out wonderfully for them, they will blame you for everything.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:28 am

    For Russia they could invest in their own factories and air fields and benefit directly from that, rather than saving something for an ungrateful neighbour...
    relations can change & work can be outsourced, esp. when/if plants in Russia/China r too busy & planes must be returned to service sooner rather than later.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:17 am

    Relations do change but going from Ukrainian sanctions banning all trade with Russia to Russia paying to fix their destroyed aircraft industry is just silly.... Russia would be better off investing in Italy and saving aircraft workshops there... or in Serbia... I am sure they would benefit from a maintainence hub there that services aircraft... at least they wont spit on the Russians for doing that.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:35 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    For Russia they could invest in their own factories and air fields and benefit directly from that, rather than saving something for an ungrateful neighbour...
    relations can change & work can be outsourced, esp. when/if plants in Russia/China r too busy & planes must be returned to service sooner rather than later.

    There are still a few plants in Russia without enough work, Aviakor in Samara for example (probably they were waiting to close the criminal trial to the former plant manager before deciding whether nationalising or not that plant).That is also an interesting case because it used to work closely with Kharkov aviation plant.

    And if they need additional plants, I would spend the money first rebuilding from scratches the aviation plant that was destroyed in 2012 in Saratov, after nicely inviting the shopping mall and the small factory built there to find a more appropriate place elsewhere. (Due to the corruption and stupidity of the previous local administration, they would probably have to at least look for cheap land to offer as replacement).


    But absolutely not investing a single ruble in the Ukraine, even if there was the need of such plants. If and when they become part of the Russian federation, yes, if not I would better build a brand new plant in Donetsk (after integrating it, of course).
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:11 am

    GarryB wrote:Relations do change but going from Ukrainian sanctions banning all trade with Russia..
    It's impossible to stop all trade with Russia, no matter what Ukrainian nationalists wish & say. Smuggling will be easy along the common land & sea borders.

    https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2019/1121/Ukraine-in-play-How-Chinese-investments-change-the-game
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:49 am

    It's impossible to stop all trade with Russia, no matter what Ukrainian nationalists wish & say.

    Of course that is true, but you are not talking about smuggling or sending money home from Russia to family in the Ukraine... you are talking about the Russian government investing their money in factories and people in a foreign country, which... if detected would likely lead to the Ukrainian government seizing the funds and any hardware brought in from Russia or some other country... Russia would lose money and end up with nothing but egg on their faces... and for what... to save a company that has spent the last 20 odd years trying to screw Russia out of as much money as they could.

    Antonov... as a company has been a pain in the ass for Russia for most of the post cold war period making all sorts of demands of ownership of Soviet designed aircraft... they really have been a pain in the ass... now of course the workers can't be blamed for all the shit the management have put Russia through, but at the end of the day it is the company they used to work for... unless they moved to the east of the country to support the ukrainian people wanting to continue to speak Russian, or moved to Russia to find work they are of no interest to Russia because they are supporting the nazi regime in Kiev.... so fuckem.

    Russia should not only not spend a cent in the Ukraine, they should actively block their border with the Ukraine to maximise the problems of the illegal regime in the Kiev as much as they can as a clear message to the Baltic countries and indeed Belarus that if you want to abuse your citizens for speaking Russian then you need to turn your back completely on Russia... we wont invade you... but we wont trade with you either. Earn your money elsewhere.

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