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    Russia - Egypt military contracts

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    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:24 am

    Egypt F-16 fleet is ok with the last upgrades , no problem with spare parts even as Egypt made many of them .

    Rafale and MIG are necessary as the EAF keeps at least three different types of aircrafts to reduce the dependency on US .

    Their f-16 suck. US didn't even gave them AMRAAMs so that israeli have the advantage. They have less than 20 mirage 2000 which is nothing to defend against israel or US f-18 in case of attack.

    They were totally dependant on US untill Sissi came to power (not a US friend). The rest of aircraft they had are junk. So he bought from France and Russia enough things to have their diplomatic back up.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:00 pm

    People suggesting the MiG lacks range need to put things in perspective... first of all the Su-27 very rarely operationally flew and much more than quarter full tanks so the range advantage was at best a paper advantage.

    When fully fuelled up the Su-27 has serious g limits... something like 6g until it gets below a certain weight.

    With an inflight refuelling probe the MiG-35 has as much range as you need and easily competes with western fighters in terms of operational flight range.

    It will have access to all the newest and most capable weapons and pods and sensors as any other Russian aircraft, and more importantly is cheaper to operate than any Flanker equivalent.

    Even Russia can't afford an all Flanker fleet, so why would a smaller country even try...

    You can't just say that a Flanker has twice the flight range so 50 Flankers could do what 100 Fulcrums could do, because 100 Fulcrums can do one thing 50 Flankers can't do... be in more than 50 places at once...

    Flankers operate at roughly the same flight speeds as the Fulcrum so they can't physically cover more area at one time and the Fulcrum can carry most of the same weapons the Flankers can carry... I have seen models of the MiG-35 with 1,000kg bombs and 2,000ltr external fuel tanks.

    Also apart from being cheaper to operate, most opponents will clearly underestimate them.

    I remember in the 1980s the MiG was the big boogeyman, then in 88 we saw it at western airshows doing the tailslide, and cocky Americans were saying it was a copy of an F-16 and an F-18 combined but the American planes were better, and the skills of western pilots will mean they will thrash them in real combat because sidewinders are better and Soviet pilots are just drones controlled from vans on the ground... and then they got to test themselves against East German MiGs and got their asses handed to them... in BVR combat and WVR... remember the F-16 at that time didn't have AMRAAM and were unable to use Sparrow so they were Sidewinder only and as they also found the East German MiG-29s Flares were effective against their current model Sidewinder (the current ones seem to be effective too)...

    But after a decade and a half of training against B model Eastern Europe export model MiG-29s they got the chance to go up against some... B model aircraft in Serbia, whose aircraft were neglected to the point that criminal charges were laid against the people responsible for maintaining them and surprise surprise they didn't fare very well up against all of HATO could offer... but it was OK to write it off as useless because there was the Flanker which is essentially just a bigger version of the same aircraft with fairly similar performance to become the boogeyman... so the 29 was relegated to being nothing to worry about.

    I am sure the Soviets are not stupid enough to get a hold of some A model F-16s and after a few years training against it think no F-16 model will ever be a problem again because they are all the same right? No upgrade for the MiG-29 could possibly be aimed at solving problems or improving performance right?

    They do need a boogeyman of course but it can't be the MiG-29 because if it was the MiG-29 then Germany could just buy the MiG-29SMT upgrades and keep using its MiGs... instead they got rid of them and used F-4 Phantoms till their super expensive Typhoons were ready... that is the real reason the MiG-29 is a dog...
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    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:30 pm

    [quote="Isos"]
    Their f-16 suck. US didn't even gave them AMRAAMs so that israeli have the advantage. They have less than 20 mirage 2000 which is nothing to defend against israel or US f-18 in case of attack.
    .

    ِEgypt has borders with Isreal which minimize using for BVR missiles because it's just few minutes for both airforces to meet over borders or over Sinai , medium and short ait to air missiles have the high hand there .

    Egypt is also using her airdefence forces to cover airforce to limit any BVR advantage for IAF ( in limited cases they have advantage ) .

    The mirage will not work alone , there are a whole airforce fleet and airdefence forces , isreal also retired many F-16 aircrafts , Pakistan used not large numbers of mirages against IAF and it did well actually .

    Israel real key security is to avoid any war with Egypt .

    They were totally dependant on US untill Sissi came to power (not a US friend). The rest of aircraft they had are junk. So he bought from France and Russia enough things to have their diplomatic back up.

    Actually Russia was happy for what happened to muslim brotherhood in 2013 so they already back up Sisi , most of the army purchasing plans were already there before Sisi and even before first revolution , Egypt would never buy F-35 , already news from 2010 mentioned that Egypt is interested in Sukhoi andMIG products .

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    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:26 am

    There could be pilot interview etc.

    I sincerly hope the introduce sensor fusion and AESA on Mig-35 that will make it a very strong contender for Indian MMRCA
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:26 pm

    Do egyptian rafales have the old PESA radar ?
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:48 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:

    Actually Russia was happy for what happened to muslim brotherhood in 2013 so they already back up Sisi , most of the army purchasing plans were already there before Sisi and even before first revolution , Egypt would never buy F-35 , already news from 2010 mentioned that Egypt is interested in  Sukhoi  andMIG products .


    I think Egypts experience with the M1 contract makes it uneasy to depend on the USA. They keep a very tight control on ammo and parts. so Egypt cannot really act independantly in their own interest without US blessing.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:06 pm

    It should be in Egypt's best interest to start assembling the Russian jets and seek out Russia to make an Egypt program of making certain parts in Egypt. Also try to seek co development of munitions as well.

    This would give huge boost to Egypt's economy and give reason for development of vital spare parts. I imagine if contract is good, Russia would jump in on that opportunity.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:08 pm

    They also need to buy RVV SD instead of RVV AE.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:28 pm

    Do egyptian rafales have the old PESA radar ?

    No, Thales RBE2 AESA radar .


    I think Egypts experience with the M1 contract makes it uneasy to depend on the USA. They keep a very tight control on ammo and parts. so Egypt cannot really act independantly in their own interest without US blessing.

    Egypt producing Abrams under licence since 80s which gave good experience to keep the tanks on even in case of a war with israel .

    Already  ural to assemble t-90-tanks in egypt

    U.S. Threatens Egypt With Sanctions Over SU-35 contract but Egypt go forward and completed the deal .

    SU-35 , T-90 ,Antey-2500 , BUK-M2 ,TOR-M1,2 , Mig-29M2 , 1000 vikhr missiles , KA-52 ..etc

    I see great dependency here !


    It should be in Egypt's best interest to start assembling the Russian jets and seek out Russia to make an Egypt program of making certain parts in Egypt. Also try to seek co development of munitions as well.

    This would give huge boost to Egypt's economy and give reason for development of vital spare parts. I imagine if contract is good, Russia would jump in on that opportunity.

    Yes and already Egypt has contracts to assemple some Russian weapons and munitions .

    Egypt also produces many of the land forces hardware and munitions , will be great to see more Russian facilities in Egypt .


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    Post  mnztr on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:37 pm

    The only assemble them, there are several consumables with M1 that keep Egypt completely at the mercy of U. Sam
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:10 pm

    mnztr wrote:The only assemble them, there are several consumables with M1 that keep Egypt completely at the mercy of U. Sam

    No , Factory 200 in Egypt is producing the whole body of the tank using local materials  , for electronics yes some of them come from US but it's easy to replace them with western or eastern products if the supplier cut it , every country seeks for her security , it's a myth that US can control everything in the world .

    Factory 200 in Egypt



    Egypt also upgraded it's M-60s internally

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    Post  mnztr on Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:36 am

    Its really impossible to tell from that video what % of content is Egyption or even if the armour is of the same quality as US made M1's. No chance the powertrain is made in Egypt, nor the sensors, advanced hydraulics, turret stabilzation. Doubtful the ammo (Tungsten let alone DU) is made in Egypt. In either case its highly suspicious the USA sold Egypt (one of the few ME countries with little oil) a Tank that absolutely INHALES fuel. It takes 5 gallons of fuel just to start the engine OMG!!!
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    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:54 am

    No DU in export models. The stuff they sell them must be approved by israel. Their f-16 are not armed with amraam because it would be capable of targeting israeli f-15. Their Abrams are vulnerable to istaeli APFSDS for sure.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:47 am

    it's a myth that US can control everything in the world .

    A myth they achieve that, but certainly true that it is their goal and what they try with everyone...
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:35 am

    Its really impossible to tell from that video what % of content is Egyption or even if the armour is of the same quality as US made M1's. No chance the powertrain is made in Egypt, nor the sensors, advanced hydraulics, turret stabilzation. Doubtful the ammo (Tungsten let alone DU) is made in Egypt. In either case its highly suspicious the USA sold Egypt (one of the few ME countries with little oil) a Tank that absolutely INHALES fuel. It takes 5 gallons of fuel just to start the engine OMG!!!

    There is no economic feasibility to produce the engine in Egypt as the Abrams not exported from Egypt to other countries , Egypt only maintain the engines and produce some parts of it for general maintainance .

    Military Production Ministry releases recent M1A1 Abrams photos

    The Ministry of Military Production released on Saturday photos of M1A1 Abrams tank 95 percent manufactured in Factory 200 in collaboration with General Dynamics.

    No DU in export models. The stuff they sell them must be approved by israel. Their f-16 are not armed with amraam because it would be capable of targeting israeli f-15.

    For DU ,Egypt already got them

    Russia - Egypt military contracts - Page 16 Screen54
    Russia - Egypt military contracts - Page 16 Screen55



    By the way ,did USSR or Russia exported weapons with the same performance as original one ? what about Iraqi's soviet tanks in gulf war ? will the exported Iskander has two launchers per one vehicle ? what about exported Armata ?

    I already replied before in this thread at your AIM-120 point Smile

    Their Abrams are vulnerable to istaeli APFSDS for sure.
    On the right range both Abrams and Merkava have chance to destroy each other , we already saw what happened to merkava in south lebanon , Egypt has a huge ground forces ,considered to be the biggest in ME , it's not just tank vs tank virtual scenarios.

    A myth they achieve that, but certainly true that it is their goal and what they try with everyone...

    Yes they are trying but rarely it works , no one ( except idiot of course ) will leave his national security just for US eyes , Egypt co-operated since 40 years with Argentin , North Korea to develop ballastic missiles .Egyptian scientist employed at U.S Aerojet Solid Propulsion Corporation ,accused of smuggling sophisticated weapons technology to Egypt .Dr. Helmy was entirely consistent with items necessary to support the manufacture of a ballistic missile. Specifically the chemicals, when combined into one list, are most likely to be found in a facility which manufactures composite solid propellant motors. The carbon based blocks and cones were most probably for use on the nose of the missile warhead.

    Two Egyptians, Rocket Specialist Accused In Illegal Export Scheme
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    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:47 pm

    By the way ,did USSR or Russia exported weapons with the same performance as original one ? what about Iraqi's soviet tanks in gulf war ? will the exported Iskander has two launchers per one vehicle ? what about exported Armata ?
    They downgrade their hardware and it is widely known.

    US are more nasty.

    US exports the best to israeli and allows them to use their own stuff on the f16 or f-35. Turkey for exemple can't lock on US or israeli fighters because of US made IFF.

    They even forbiden export of french SCALP missiles because it would be deadly for israelis. There was some US components inside and forbid the use on export missile for egypt.

    I already replied before in this thread at your AIM-120 point

    I just saw your reply. Well you are wrong. The range of missiles matters. Aim7 used by egypt is older technology, has smaller range and is well known by Israeli which have ecm to counter it. And distance btw the two country is big enough to allow use of bvr.

    On the right range both Abrams and Merkava have chance to destroy each other , we already saw what happened to merkava in south lebanon , Egypt has a huge ground forces ,considered to be the biggest in ME , it's not just tank vs tank virtual scenarios.

    They don't put DU armor in export models of abrams. Its frontal protection is closer to the basic M1 than m1A2.


    Egypt switching from Soviet union towards US as main weapon supllier was a big mistake. Now they have to replace a lot of US stuff.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:44 pm


    US exports the best to israeli and allows them to use their own stuff on the f16 or f-35. Turkey for exemple can't lock on US or israeli fighters because of US made IFF.

    They even forbiden export of french SCALP missiles because it would be deadly for israelis. There was some US components inside and forbid the use on export missile for egypt.

    If Egyptian F-16 can't target Israelis aircrafts so why you said they banned Amrram so that it will be an advantage to Israel aircrafts  Exclamation

    IFF transponder systems are used by both military and civilian aircraft. They have two-channels: one frequency is used for interrogating signals and another for the reply.

    The interrogator’s coded signal consists of two pulses spaced at a precisely defined interval. The time interval between the two pulses, discriminated by the onboard transponder circuitry, determines the IFF Mode.

    IFF enables quick identification of a friendly aircraft, but it is of little help when trying to identify hostile planes. It is not linked to the aircraft armament and (at least on the majority of the airplanes I know) it can’t prevent an interceptor from shooting at a “friendly” aircraft.

    IFF is automatically switched off when Emission Control is applied, hence, an adversary plane involved in an aggressive mission will likely have its IFF on stand-by.

    The IFF is not interconnected to the missile. The decision to fire and bring down a friendly plane it’s up to the pilot.

    Beside the way ,Turks developed their own IFF systems .

    Also your news need to be updated , France defence minister said they will replace the U.S parts that used in SCALP so that they can sell it to Egypt .

    According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) , Egypt already received 50 Storm Shadow/SCALP ASM

    Russia - Egypt military contracts - Page 16 Screen56

    [/quote]

    I just saw your reply. Well you are wrong. The range of missiles matters. Aim7 used by egypt is older technology, has smaller range and is well known by Israeli which have ecm to counter it. And distance btw the two country is big enough to allow use of bvr.

    The AIM-7P is a beyond visual range missile , No missile is completely averse to ECM.

    This isn't that simple.The US scored five kills in Desert Storm with BVRAAM. Three of them at 13nm and the other two 16nm and 8.5nm

    That's why Egypt is using  ground air defences along with airforce , Egypt has no intened to start a war with Israel , so if they started war they have to come to Egypt terrority and then our tactics are there .

    They don't put DU armor in export models of abrams. Its frontal protection is closer to the basic M1 than m1A2.

    I was talking about munitions . For DU armor ,if they banned it to everyone , why they should supply it to Egypt ?

    Egypt switching from Soviet union towards US as main weapon supllier was a big mistake. Now they have to replace a lot of US stuff.
    It's about making balance not replacing all US weapons , we need new tanks generation but US still using Abrams . F-35 not suitable for Egypt ,so going to Russia for some aircrafts and tanks is logical ,also Egypt depends on Russia for supplying airdefences since long time .
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    Post  mnztr on Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:23 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    The Ministry of Military Production released on Saturday photos of M1A1 Abrams tank 95 percent manufactured in Factory 200 in collaboration with General Dynamics.



    How do you measure 95%? I doubt its by part count. How many DU rounds does Egypt get? I doubt the tanks have the encased DU armour

    Yes its true all the powers tend to keep the best stuff for themselves. But one has to be suspicious. For example, in the Falklands Argentina had only about 6 Exocet missiles and the torpedos on their best sub failed suspiciously. If those torpedos had worked the British would have lost 4-5 more major ships. If the exocets warheads had not failed at times, the carnage for Britain would have been 5x. Hard to say if it was deliberate or poor maint. But very suspicious. The Iraqi tanks in were not upgraded.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:50 am

    By the way ,did USSR or Russia exported weapons with the same performance as original one ? what about Iraqi's soviet tanks in gulf war ? will the exported Iskander has two launchers per one vehicle ? what about exported Armata ?

    All Iskander launchers carry two missiles ready to fire... export and domestic. Tochka has a single missile on the TEL.

    I also believe most Iraqi tanks were made in Poland or were parts from Poland assembled in Iraq... none of their T-72s were good T-72s with extra armour and ERA and good ammo, but that is what was to be expected buying them from a third party... The vast majority of Iraqi tanks were T-55s.

    US are more nasty.

    Many of their generous donations of weapons turn out to be totally worn out F-16s or Hueys that are good for nothing except either a very expensive overhaul and upgrade, or retirement...


    Egypt switching from Soviet union towards US as main weapon supllier was a big mistake.

    Better relations with the US and Israel might have prevented Israel from invading them or just constantly attacking them like they do in Syria, but they certainly got short changed on weapons...

    Also your news need to be updated , France defence minister said they will replace the U.S parts that used in SCALP so that they can sell it to Egypt .

    According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) , Egypt already received 50 Storm Shadow/SCALP ASM

    I think his point was not that Egypt can't have nice things, but that the Americans will do all they can to protect Israel even at the cost of denying Egypt the ability to protect itself...

    IFF is automatically switched off when Emission Control is applied, hence, an adversary plane involved in an aggressive mission will likely have its IFF on stand-by.

    The IFF is not interconnected to the missile. The decision to fire and bring down a friendly plane it’s up to the pilot.

    Beside the way ,Turks developed their own IFF systems .

    There is lots of software in avionics systems so it would not be too hard to put in a few lines where an AMRAAM gets a lock but in the last seconds before impact the control surfaces turn hard away from the target or the warhead either goes off early or is deactivated and does not go off at all.

    This isn't that simple.The US scored five kills in Desert Storm with BVRAAM. Three of them at 13nm and the other two 16nm and 8.5nm

    But doesn't that tell you something too... no down hundreds or perhaps thousands of BVR missiles were launched and the only ones that got kills were relatively short range engagements...

    When they designed the F-4 Phantom they decided they didn't need a gun... the primary weapon would be Sparrows and the back up weapon would be Sidewinders... there was no need for back ups to the back ups... except against small manouvering targets... there was.

    BVR missile technology has improved but still no where near calling them hittiles instead of missiles.

    That's why Egypt is using ground air defences along with airforce , Egypt has no intened to start a war with Israel , so if they started war they have to come to Egypt terrority and then our tactics are there .

    That is what makes Egypt a serious opponent... you can't be defeated by just defeating your airforce...

    I was talking about munitions . For DU armor ,if they banned it to everyone , why they should supply it to Egypt ?

    Deplete Uranium is used up nuclear fuel rods... essentially it is nuclear waste... I am surprised they don't make cars out of it... and they will tell you it is totally safe BTW...

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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:21 pm

    How do you measure 95%? I doubt its by part count. How many DU rounds does Egypt get? I doubt the tanks have the encased DU armour

    This was said by the Ministry of Military Production . DU rounds were released to Egypt , i don't have numbers now ,i'll try to check it .Yes no DU armor .

    ahmedfire is there any interview of Egyptian AF pilot flying the Mig-29M2 ?

    Till now no ,i'll post any interviews here if i found .



    All Iskander launchers carry two missiles ready to fire... export and domestic. Tochka has a single missile on the TEL.

    I doubt the difference for the exported variant will be only the range , may be the accuracy will not be the same as Russian used system.

    Better relations with the US and Israel might have prevented Israel from invading them or just constantly attacking them like they do in Syria, but they certainly got short changed on weapons...

    Israel doesn't know such deep relations with Arabs ,if Egypt's army became weak for a second , Israelis will come to Sinai and say hi friends this is our land that mentioned in the Hebrew Bible lol!

    Israel felt the real peace only after the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty , after that Israel didn't face any strategic threats , Egypt made a serious hits even before the war .

    As example in 1970, US rented for Israel an oil rig  "Kenting " to start pumping oil from Suez bay , was coming from Canada to Israel and stopped for some time in Abidjan (the economic capital of Ivory Coast) Egypt's  General Intelligence Service tracing the oil rig to Abidjan and planted sets of explosives, had them detonated . Ironically, this was done while the city was full, not only of Mossad agents protecting the oil rig, but also while it was full of CIA agents who were guarding the NASA astronauts during their visit to Côte d'Ivoire .

    Russia - Egypt military contracts - Page 16 Screen57



    Egyptian navy 1967 planned to destroy the HMS Zealous destroyer that Britain gave it to Israel , Egyptian boat fired 3 Soviet Styex missiles and destroyed it , killing about 50 Israelis soldiers . Egyptian navy teams used to swim long distances and sneak under Israel ports and put heavy explosives , in one operation they destroyed the most of EILAT port killing 60 israeli soldiers .




    That's why they were enforced to leave Sinai 60,000 km2 ( 3 times as current Israel and 6 times as Qatar ) , and from that time they feel safe ,all that high voices from Iran did nothing .Syria is bleeding and can't go for a full scale war with Israel .

    It's Ridiculous that many western sources saying that Israel defeated Egypt in 1973 war , yeah Israel won but left 60,000 km2  lol1

    Please listen to the Israel Minister of Defense before and after the attack .





    I think his point was not that Egypt can't have nice things, but that the Americans will do all they can to protect Israel even at the cost of denying Egypt the ability to protect itself...

    Sure they will do that but everyone will seek for his own security too .Actually our real threat is not Israel but Yankees .


    There is lots of software in avionics systems so it would not be too hard to put in a few lines where an AMRAAM gets a lock but in the last seconds before impact the control surfaces turn hard away from the target or the warhead either goes off early or is deactivated and does not go off at all.

    Right but this could be done also by any manufacturer ,Russia/france/Britain/Germany ..etc , but if this happened no one will take arms from such country again .


    But doesn't that tell you something too... no down hundreds or perhaps thousands of BVR missiles were launched and the only ones that got kills were relatively short range engagements...

    Yes i actually meant that , air-air fight still depending more on short and medium missile than long BVR one.


    Last edited by ahmedfire on Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:36 pm

    Right but this could be done also by any manufacturer ,Russia/france/Britain/Germany ..etc , but if this happened no one will take arms from such country again .

    German made torpedoes used by argentinians didn't work against UK ships in Malvinas war.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:06 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Right but this could be done also by any manufacturer ,Russia/france/Britain/Germany ..etc , but if this happened no one will take arms from such country again .

    German made torpedoes used by argentinians didn't work against UK ships in Malvinas war.

    Check this

    After the Falklands War ended, German and Dutch engineers were sent to Argentina to discover what went wrong with their torpedoes. The problem was found to be that one of the Argentine sailors who was in charge of periodic maintenance of the torpedoes had inadvertently reversed the polarity of power cables between the torpedoes and the submarine. This meant that when the torpedoes' gyros were spun up, they ran "backwards" and thus tumbled on launch, preventing the weapons from taking up their proper heading

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Luis_(S-32)
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:10 pm

    A trained sailor to do such mistake on many torpedoes during a war ? I don't believe it.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Russia - Egypt military contracts - Page 16 Empty Re: Russia - Egypt military contracts

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:56 pm

    Isos wrote:A trained sailor to do such mistake on many torpedoes during a war ? I don't believe it.
    you mean it was sabotage?
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Russia - Egypt military contracts - Page 16 Empty Re: Russia - Egypt military contracts

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:40 am

    I doubt the difference for the exported variant will be only the range , may be the accuracy will not be the same as Russian used system.

    According to international export laws the range has to be less than 300km so it will likely be about 290km or so, and the payload has to be smaller than 500kgs so it will likely be 450kgs just to keep good margins. Accuracy will almost certainly diminished and I suspect some options for guidance and terminal homing might not be available for export... there are active radar and passive radar and optical guidance systems that all use GLONASS as well, with optical being the most accurate at about 5-10m CEP, while radar is reportedly about 15-20m CEP... both of which are close enough for conventional warheads to be effective.

    The Soviets and Russians used to try to diminish performance of exported weapons, but their situation meant that Indias Su-30MKI was actually rather more modern and capable than the Su-27s and MiG-29s they were using at the time, and their Su-30s were not multi role aircraft... they were used by the PVO as interceptors.

    Lots of Russian products were exported, but some items were not. China didn't receive an order of two MiG-31s nor an order of two Tu-22M3s either for pretty obvious reasons.

    Products sold to India have been rather good and generally better than what Russia at the time could afford to equip their own troops with... obviously this has changed with the Su-35 and Su-34 and now the Su-57 being the best in their classes...

    It was interesting with the Onyx missile... the Russians developed it in the 1990s to replace the bigger heavier Granit and Vulcan missiles, they also created a shorter ranged lighter warhead model for export called Yakhont. India developed their own version of Yakhont called Brahmos with updated performance and electronics which resulted basically in the dumbed down export model Onyx being superior electronically than the missile it was based on... but obviously the Russians used what they learned and developed to create versions of Onyx and granit and vulcan and other missiles to make them land attack capable and more effective while retaining their greater range and payload.

    Systems and equipment upgraded for the Su-30MKI and the chinese Su-30MKK almost certainly contributed in making their other projects( Su-34.34,57 etc) better.

    mentioned in the Hebrew Bible


    hehehehe... sorry, but as a tea drinker I always thought a hebrew was a cup of tea made by a cannibal.

    Right but this could be done also by any manufacturer ,Russia/france/Britain/Germany ..etc , but if this happened no one will take arms from such country again .

    But that is the problem... an error message is not going to pop up and say you can't launch a missile against this airplane because it should be a friendly or because we made it... it will just be a failure... you know... like Exocet missiles that fail to explode... nudge nudge wink wink...

    Yes i actually meant that , air-air fight still depending more on short and medium missile than long BVR one.

    Getting a kill in air to air combat is still 99% surprise... if you don't know it is coming you will fly straight and level and be a very easy target to hit. Longer range missiles means longer times for the engagement which means more time for the target to know they are under attack and do something about it...

    German made torpedoes used by argentinians didn't work against UK ships in Malvinas war.

    And French made Exocet missiles didn't seem to explode every time either...

    After the Falklands War ended, German and Dutch engineers were sent to Argentina to discover what went wrong with their torpedoes. The problem was found to be that one of the Argentine sailors who was in charge of periodic maintenance of the torpedoes had inadvertently reversed the polarity of power cables between the torpedoes and the submarine. This meant that when the torpedoes' gyros were spun up, they ran "backwards" and thus tumbled on launch, preventing the weapons from taking up their proper heading

    What a convenient cover story to allow Germany to keep selling torpedoes despite their terrible... some could say sabotaged performance... how nice just one person gets the blame... convenient even...

    Interesting how one mechanic managed to sabotage accidently all the torpedoes... sounds less like an accident and more like a feature of German subs and German torpedoes when about to be used against an ally...

    you mean it was sabotage?

    No, it was the Germans and the Dutch covering their own asses with a lynching.

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