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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    GarryB
    GarryB

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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 25 Empty Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:28 pm

    The thing is that now the have track while scan and ARH missiles. The targeted plane will know only in the last few seconds that a missile is coming on him.

    Normally when the target is owned by a third world country and the missile was fired from an aircraft of the first world, that is probably exactly what happens.

    More capable aircraft will detect incoming threats and might even get warning of the enemy aircraft being in their airspace prior to the engagement.

    Modern air to air combat is like submarine warfare with fighters not wanting to give their positions away with excessive radar use, but with the proper support most modern fighters... especially stealthy 5th gen ones should have a reasonable air picture so surprise is less likely.

    Evasive action can be made but it reduces the speed of the aircraft, turns the belly (bigger rcs) towards the missile's seeker and the jammers stop facing the front where they are most of the time and lose of altitude making its own missile shorter range.

    Evasive manouvers will likely be in response to EW warning which might indicate a suitable evasive manouver to enhance the performance of onboard active measures... ie towed decoy, disposable decoys, active and passive jammers etc.

    If there is a second missile behind the first one, he will get the kill.

    A second missile would be a problem, but only if it had an alternative homing method as if both are IR guided or ARH guided or SARH guided then whatever made the first missile miss, might also render the second ineffective.

    A modern self defence suite should fairly rapidly distinguish between an IR guided weapon from an ARH or SARH, and act appropriately, but certainly firing different missile types makes the targets task of evasion much more difficult.

    And even if not, the targeted plane will go defensive (evasive actions) lose speed and altitude making it an easier target for the second volley MRAAM which have the advantage of speed and altitude over the targeted fighter's missiles or of short range IR missiles which will also have longer range.

    Equally even if the second wave of missiles miss, your enemy has spent the last few minutes manouvering hard and not really doing much that threatens you, all the while you are getting closer and perhaps are ready to launch your third missile.

    But again it depends on the calibre of the target... with the near future introduction of the 9M100 which is also for use as a CIWS for the navy as well as a similar role for S-350 batteries and possibly even on separate units like perhaps tanks or maybe even as an additional weapon for other platforms while they are reloading, it might come down to how many self defence missiles does your aircraft carry?

    If those one still miss, the attacking aircraft will have the speed and energy to fire with its guns first.

    Speed and energy were critical because they could be changed for height and of course avoiding that terrible state the stall where you are a victim and not a hunter.

    Modern TVC engines means even in a stall an aircraft can point its nose directing its radar and other sensors in any direction and launch its weapons on direct paths to targets... which gives their missiles more energy on target...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:31 pm


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    4h
    ET reports that at the meeting between Indian Defense Minister Rajnath Singh and Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu Russia offered India the Project 12701 Alexandrit-E ships under a transfer of technology deal with the Goa Shipyard. 3/


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    4h
    According to ET, India "urgently" needs 12 minesweepers to replace its decommissioned Pondicherry class minesweepers. The two sides agreed to go ahead with the modernization of India's 272 Su-30MKI fleet, the prototype of which will be developed by HAL with Russian support. 4/


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    4h
    The contract to build 670k AK-203 rifles in Amethi through the lndo-Russia Rifles Private Limited JV will soon be "operationalized." Singh also pushed for "joint manufacturing of spares, components and aggregates in India to reduce costs and supply timelines." 5/


    https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/russia-ready-to-start-amethi-rifles-unit/amp_articleshow/71945502.cms?from=mdr&__twitter_impression=true
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:18 am

    India’s military industrial sector will increase licensed production of Russian T-90S main battle tanks, Deputy Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Vladimir Drozhzhov said at the DefExpo 2020 international defense exhibition in India’s Lucknow on Wednesday.

    “Last year a contract was signed to increase licensed production (of T-90S tanks) by December 2028. It is suggested that over 460 tanks will be produced,” he said.

    India is one of the largest operators of T-90S tanks. According to the data provided by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) it its Military Balance 2019 report, the Indian Army has more than 1,025 T-90S tanks in its inventory.


    https://geopolitics.news/euroasia/india-to-boost-licensed-production-of-russian-t-90s-tanks/
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:14 am

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1225141837469495301

    "In an interview at India's DefExpo 2020, Minpromtorg's Denis Manturov said that India has made proposals to purchase or license produce the BTR-82A, BMP-3, and Sprut SDM1. And Russia has offered the joint production of an IFV with a 57mm cannon."
    Pinto
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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 25 Empty 2 Russian arms deals likely next week, weaponry worth $15 bn in pipeline

    Post  Pinto Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:29 am

    Weaponry worth $15 billion in Moscow pipeline, underlining Russia's status as India's premier arms supplier

    On Wednesday, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will clear the purchase of one, and possibly two, Russian weapons systems, taking orders in the Moscow pipeline to above $15 billion and underlining Russia’s status as India’s premier arms supplier.

    The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) — the MoD’s apex procurement body, headed by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh — is poised to clear the purchase of the 9K338 Igla-S missile system for a sum of $1.3 billion. India will buy 800 launchers and 5,175 Igla-S missiles, which fall in the so-called “Very Short Range Air Defence System” (VSHORADS) category. The VSHORADS procurement has been mired in controversy. The Igla-S is a 16-year-old missile system, first built in 2004, which the Russian military replaced in 2014 with the newer, far more capable, 9K333 Verba missile.

    After the MoD announced in November 2018 that it had chosen the Igla-S over the other two VSHORADS on offer – Swedish firm Saab’s RBS-70; and the Mistral, offered by European consortium, MBDA – Saab shot off four letters of protest to the MoD alleging foul play in testing.

    However, internal MoD evaluators ruled that testing had followed procedure. In a reply to Saab that Business Standard has reviewed, the MoD wrote the “case has progressed as per provisions of Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) with level playing field to all the participating vendors.”

    Apparently, the MoD feels the Igla-S met India’s needs and Rosoboronexport’s price of under $1.47 billion makes it a value proposition compared to Saab’s tag of $2.6 billion and MBDA’s offer of $3.68 billion.

    Russian industry sources say that, when the Indian tender was floated in 2010, they had only the Igla-S to offer since the Verba was not ready. In 2014, when the Russian military introduced the fourth-generation Verba, Rosoboronexport offered to replace the Igla-S with the new missile.But the MoD said the DPP did not permit this change.

    Consequently, the Indian military will get an obsolescent VSHORADS that will be almost two decades old by the time it enters service, and almost fifty years old at the end of its service life cycle.

    Furthermore, since the 2010 tender did not specify any “Make in India” stipulations, production of the Igla-S will take place mostly in Russia.

    VSHORADS are the ground forces’ last defence against attack from enemy ground strike aircraft. At the apex level, the IAF is responsible for air defence, which it does by bombing enemy airfields to prevent combat aircraft from even taking off. Those that do manage to enter our airspace are engaged with the IAF’s fighters and missiles.

    However, some enemy aircraft still sneak through to attack ground troops, who protect themselves with VSHORADS.

    The MoD is also racing against time to bring before the DAC the long-delayed proposal to build 197 Kamov-226T helicopters for an estimated $2 billion. This is being touted as a “Make in India” initiative, with the choppers being built by a joint venture (JV), Indo-Russian Helicopters Ltd (IRHL). The biggest stakeholder in the JV is Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) with a 50.5 per cent stake, while Russian Helicopters has a 49.5 per cent stake.

    However, there will be only limited indigenisation. The inter-governmental agreement (IGA) between New Delhi and Moscow permits Russian Helicopters to deliver the first 60 helicopters in flyaway condition. The next 40 helicopters would be shipped as kits from Russia to be assembled in India. Only after that would indigenisation pick up momentum over the last 97 choppers.

    The VSHORADS and Kamov-226T contracts will supplement the on-going purchase from Russia of S-400 air defence systems ($5.43 billion), AK-203 rifles ($1 billion), Krivak III frigates ($2 billion), BrahMos anti-ship missiles ($2.6 billion) and a supplementary order for 18 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighters ($1.15 billion). This will take the value of on-going arms imports from Russia to $15 billion – far more than any other country, including the US.

    Washington, however, has created a lever to discourage Indian weapons imports from Moscow. A recent US law – Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) – requires the US government to sanction countries that engage in “significant transactions” with Russian, Iranian and North Korean entities. The US president has the power to grant India a waiver from CAATSA. However, without large arms purchases from the US, there is no certainty that that Donald Trump would grant a waiver.

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/two-major-russian-arms-deals-worth-15-billion-likely-next-week-120031401099_1.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:33 am

    The Igla-S is a 16-year-old missile system, first built in 2004, which the Russian military replaced in 2014 with the newer, far more capable, 9K333 Verba missile.

    Apparently, the MoD feels the Igla-S met India’s needs and Rosoboronexport’s price of under $1.47 billion makes it a value proposition compared to Saab’s tag of $2.6 billion and MBDA’s offer of $3.68 billion.

    Consequently, the Indian military will get an obsolescent VSHORADS that will be almost two decades old by the time it enters service, and almost fifty years old at the end of its service life cycle.

    Wow the super butt hurt is on display for all to see.

    Russia entered a missile in a competition held by India for a set of requirements... it beat two western missiles... which are much older than 16 years BTW, and it comes in much cheaper than either western missile while meeting the requirements... but they now have a newer missile and they are crying about that?

    Now the real problem is that they want Verba for $1.47 billion dollars, and ignore the fact that they themselves did not allow the Russians to substitute the newer missile when it became available.

    Furthermore, since the 2010 tender did not specify any “Make in India” stipulations, production of the Igla-S will take place mostly in Russia.

    Well obviously... if it was going to need to be produced in India they would need to pay to build factories to make it and train up a work force to make these missiles so the price would probably go to 3-4 billion for the exact same missile with no actual improvement in performance.

    You get what you pay for... you can have capable missiles or you can spend a lot more for the ability to produce your own capable missiles.

    However, some enemy aircraft still sneak through to attack ground troops, who protect themselves with VSHORADS.

    On any battlefield any enemy aircraft will be a threat whether it is a dedicated CAS aircraft like an Su-25, A-10, or something like a Super Tucano or L39 jet trainer with bombs and rockets, or a vast array of helicopters both attack and assault and transport... and of course cruise missiles and drones.

    The Igla-S introduced proximity fusing to the Igla family which makes it very effective against small targets like missiles and drones... very very useful.

    However, there will be only limited indigenisation. The inter-governmental agreement (IGA) between New Delhi and Moscow permits Russian Helicopters to deliver the first 60 helicopters in flyaway condition. The next 40 helicopters would be shipped as kits from Russia to be assembled in India. Only after that would indigenisation pick up momentum over the last 97 choppers.

    It is a Russian designed and built helicopter... eventually India is going to be making many of the parts itself but they will be paying money for that too.

    I don't understand the made in India programme when it comes to Russia... Russia makes it cheap enough to just buy it... I would think it would make more sense for India to want to produce western kit instead of buying it from western factories because they will be much better able to compete with them in terms of costs and also the west has a history of sanctions so local production is protection from a dick head like Trump turning off the taps.

    Their obvious problems are that the west is not interested in licence production in India.

    The US president has the power to grant India a waiver from CAATSA. However, without large arms purchases from the US, there is no certainty that that Donald Trump would grant a waiver.

    That law violates the WTO trade rules, if the US wants to impose its local laws on India then India can effectively close its markets to the US... lets see whose eyes water first... India needs to work on its own internal market and raise standards and incomes and quality of life... I can't see the US doing anything about that except using it to criticise India when it misbehaves (in US eyes).

    India cannot buy from Russia because America says so... really?

    Make America Gay Again... it is working.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:21 pm

    Well, in a normal world this would cause US to be kicked out from WTO. Since this is not possible most probably the result will be that the more and more countries will start getting out of the WTO...

    About Indian localised production.

    It has been seen with the parts for Su30 and Mig29 that Indian produce these with higher price and lower quality than Russia...

    Maybe the compromise could be for them to buy the top end product from russia and develop together a smaller cheaper alternative to be mass produced in India (with russian engine, of course).

    This indigenous alternative should have been the tejas, but i do not know if it will ever be successful.

    If I were in the indian government I would buy mig 35 in Russia  and ask Russia to help develop a simple and cheap 4+ generation single engine fighter based on the same engine, similar to the JF17 that China developed for Pakistan.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:31 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    If I were in the indian government I would buy mig 35 in Russia  and ask Russia to help develop a simple and cheap 4+ generation single engine fighter based on the same engine, similar to the JF17 that China developed for Pakistan.

    i am not seeing present MMRCA of 108 fighters succeeding either, it's going to be 36 more Rafales, and rest of the 80 fighters can be MIG 35/SU35 and money saved going into SU30MKI modernisation which too is not going to cost less then 7-9 b $ as it includes newer radars, engines and meanwhile Tejas in 200 Nos will be inducted in various versions. Although it would be interesting to watch US moves as they are trying there best to push for either of there aircraft from lockheed or boeing but its not going to succeed
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:40 am

    Pinto wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    If I were in the indian government I would buy mig 35 in Russia  and ask Russia to help develop a simple and cheap 4+ generation single engine fighter based on the same engine, similar to the JF17 that China developed for Pakistan.

    i am not seeing present MMRCA of 108 fighters succeeding either, it's going to be 36 more Rafales, and rest of the 80 fighters can be MIG 35/SU35 and money saved going into SU30MKI modernisation which too is not going to cost less then 7-9 b $ as it includes newer radars, engines and meanwhile Tejas in 200 Nos will be inducted in various versions. Although it would be interesting to watch US moves as they are trying there best to push for either of there aircraft from lockheed or boeing but its not going to succeed

    Actually if I am not mistaken The JF17 was developed with serious help from MiG corporation. If so it would be maybe possible to develop in a relatively short time a variant for India without any Chinese or Pakistani component.

    I do not know the status of tejas, but I heard that there were quite a bit of problems.
    And anyway I do not see the point of having the tejas also as a carrier based aircraft... are they planning to have a mixed fleet on their carriers?

    I thought they just needed to replace the mig21 that will be retired, and some will be replaced with bigger aircrafts (mig35 or rafale) while others with cheaper smaller aircrafts

    Concerning the carrier based fighter, the rational decision will be to buy additional mig29k or navalised mig35... we will see what they will do...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:43 am

    About Indian localised production.

    It has been seen with the parts for Su30 and Mig29 that Indian produce these with higher price and lower quality than Russia...

    To be fair that is not actually true... everybody decides on what they want to pay for and where they can save money.... the factories and tools the Russians make their MiGs on they might not have spent too much on so they can keep the production price down for the Russian AF purchases.

    If that is the case India could spend more and get better tooling and production equipment and end up with better made aircraft, or more accurately aircraft made to a higher standard without needing highly skilled labour.

    The problem of course is that for Russia to make some planes they have the factories and much of the tooling was paid for by India when it ordered MiG-29KR fighters for its Navy. The Russian Navy tacked on orders of its own so it did not have to pay for tooling and training up a work force... they were ready to go when the order was made.

    When India orders either MiG-35s or MiG-29M2s and wants to produce them in India then they need to also pay for factories and tooling and training skilled labour to make those planes so it is always going to cost more... but the point is that when they have finished making those planes they have a workforce and factory that is ready to make more planes or something else... if they make another 200 planes then they don't need to pay for another factory to be built and because they make them themselves no one can stop them from making as many as they want within reason and of course they can make spare parts and also support their own aircraft which reduces operational costs.

    Of course they might also want to reduce costs and cut corners where corners should not be cut to make the planes and have some real problems down the road... which might give the plane a bad reputation it does not really deserve... which is probably why France is not allowing local production of Rafales.

    Maybe the compromise could be for them to buy the top end product from russia and develop together a smaller cheaper alternative to be mass produced in India (with russian engine, of course).

    This indigenous alternative should have been the tejas, but i do not know if it will ever be successful.

    AFAIK they had three stealth fighter programmes the light (Tegas II) the medium (?) and the heavy (Su-57 variant)... personally I think the light aircraft is a waste of time and should be non stealthy 4++ gen light plane that is cheap but with lots of external hard points and cheap to make in large numbers, while a medium stealthy fighter is big enough to carry a reasonable internal weapon load to remain stealthy when loaded and of course the heavy stealth fighter makes sense as your primary air control fighter.

    I would keep going with Tegas but scale back some of the requirements and just keep it cheap and simple and make lots of them, and create a MiG-35 based medium stealth fighter with Russian contributions and of course the Su-57MKI...

    The MiG-29M2 could replace current MiG-21 and MiG-27 and Jaguar and M2K aircraft, plus a few MiG-35s. Over time you will work out what the MiG-35 has that is worth the money and over time its advanced bits will get cheaper too so over time transition the MiG-29M2s into MiG-35s and together with mass produced Tegas IIIs they can be the backbone of the force.

    Many of the components on the MiG-35 and MiG-29M2 could be used on the Tegas III for commonality.

    i am not seeing present MMRCA of 108 fighters succeeding either, it's going to be 36 more Rafales, and rest of the 80 fighters can be MIG 35/SU35 and money saved going into SU30MKI modernisation which too is not going to cost less then 7-9 b $ as it includes newer radars, engines and meanwhile Tejas in 200 Nos will be inducted in various versions.

    They were buying those 36 Rafales for about 8 billion so there wont be much left over for anything else... if they bought two lots they are probably already 5-6 billion over budget as it stands.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total
    Pinto
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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 25 Empty India likely to buy additional batch of Russian MiG-29 fighter jets — official .

    Post  Pinto Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:28 pm

    MOSCOW, March 16. /TASS/. India is very much likely to buy an extra batch of Russian MiG-29 fighter jets, chief of Russia’s Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said on Monday.

    "There is a high probability that we will have an additional order for MiG-29 fighter jets," he said in an interview with the Rossiya-24 television channel.

    India currently has more than 60 MiG-29 aircarft.

    According to Shugayev, Russia has good chances to take part in India’s tender for the purchase of 110 fighter jets that is to be announced soon. It was reported earlier that the Russian side planned to take part in this tender with its MiG-35 fighter jets.

    https://tass.com/defense/1130943
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:37 pm

    Pinto wrote:MOSCOW, March 16. /TASS/. India is very much likely to buy an extra batch of Russian MiG-29 fighter jets, chief of Russia’s Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said on Monday.

    "There is a high probability that we will have an additional order for MiG-29 fighter jets," he said in an interview with the Rossiya-24 television channel.

    India currently has more than 60 MiG-29 aircarft.

    According to Shugayev, Russia has good chances to take part in India’s tender for the purchase of 110 fighter jets that is to be announced soon. It was reported earlier that the Russian side planned to take part in this tender with its MiG-35 fighter jets.

    https://tass.com/defense/1130943
    maybe Garry will end of being right, with India buying a mix of MiG29M and Mig35

    For sure it will also be the most cost effective solution. They cannot pretend to have MiG35 with AESA radar and all the inprovement at the cost of a unmodernised MiG29 from the 80s
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:40 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Pinto wrote:MOSCOW, March 16. /TASS/. India is very much likely to buy an extra batch of Russian MiG-29 fighter jets, chief of Russia’s Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev said on Monday.

    "There is a high probability that we will have an additional order for MiG-29 fighter jets," he said in an interview with the Rossiya-24 television channel.

    India currently has more than 60 MiG-29 aircarft.

    According to Shugayev, Russia has good chances to take part in India’s tender for the purchase of 110 fighter jets that is to be announced soon. It was reported earlier that the Russian side planned to take part in this tender with its MiG-35 fighter jets.

    https://tass.com/defense/1130943
    maybe Garry will end of being right, with India buying a mix of MiG29M and Mig35

    For sure it will also be the most cost effective solution. They cannot pretend to have MiG35 with AESA radar and all the inprovement at the cost of a unmodernised MiG29 from the 80s

    Well yea Garry is right India will end up buying 36 more Rafales and its game over for that tender. After that 20 su30 mki PLUS 24-32 Nos MIG 20UPG and few sq of MIG 35

    Tejas is getting FOC but issue with it is slow production rates of state owned HAL delivering only 8-10 AC a year, since last year its lots of work is being outsourced to private sector and by 2022 it will start having regular faster production

    Apart from this the upgrades of 300 plus SU30MKI to su 35 level with latest engine. radars and avionics will get full attention and funding from later this year
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:51 am

    Pinto wrote:
    Well yea Garry is right India will end up buying 36 more Rafales and its game over for that tender. After that 20 su30 mki PLUS 24-32 Nos MIG 20UPG and few sq of MIG 35

    What should they buy additional Rafales? At that price it was almost robbery. Without bribes the Gauls should not be able to win another contract...
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:12 am

    despite India placing orders for another 400 T-90S to be produced in India, even though they just placed an order for 118 Arjun 1A tanks. some key points in the article below. the title of the article is also wrong stating that its the the most potent tank in its inventory lol.

    "The Arjun MBT had performed better than Russian T-90s during a desert trial conducted by the Army in 2010. However, reliability and availability weighed on the Army’s mind. The force argued that weight of the MBT, 62.5 tonnes, was a handicap as it meant that Arjun was too heavy for roads, bridges and canals along the Pakistan border.

    The Army, in 2010, proposed an improved version of the tank, which would be called the Mark II, and was to have over 80 improvements, including 15 major ones.

    However, this also meant that weight would increase further."

    "Talks between the DRDO and the Army continued until March 2018, and it was finally agreed that the next batch of Arjuns, to be called Mark 1-A, would be supplied without the missile firing capability."




    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/indian-army-to-receive-400-t-90-tanks-russian-mod/

    https://theprint.in/defence/army-set-to-place-order-for-118-arjun-mark-1-as-the-most-potent-tank-in-its-inventory/380869/
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:27 am

    No joke ?!! Of course it will be better with 20 tons more and probably full of western stuff inside. But move it now lol1

    Russians would have 100t tank fully protected and with a 200mm gun if it was worth loosing mobility.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:40 am

    Isos wrote:No joke ?!! Of course it will be better with 20 tons more and probably full of western stuff inside. But move it now lol1

    Russians would have 100t tank fully protected and with a 200mm gun if it was worth loosing mobility.

    exactly and they themselves stated the extra weight wasnt that suitable for its needs. Also the fact they are ordering Mk1A versions and not the MK2 version which they state is better than T-90, only shows that they weren't all that impressed with the MK2 vs. cost vs. T-90S. hence they are ordering the MK1A (relatively small order) and loads more T-90S (400). I think they should just give up on the Arjun its been nothing but a waste of money. their army is about 90% soviet/Russian made tanks which share many parts, and operate fairly similar, as well as having the same calibre, the T-90 and their T-72 Ajeya/improved Ajeya which is similar to the polish PT-91 Twardy version are all decent tanks, wasting money on Arjun was a complete mistake. with india looking to have over 2000 T-90S in service soon along with the T-72 Ajeya is more thn enough for their needs and should bide their time for now. there constant desire to waste money on homegrown projects that end up running up into wasteful billions of $ and end up running massively behind schedule to produce a substandard or outdated piece of equipment is madness. Not o long ago they paid $1.9bn ($4mn each) for 464 T-90S while the Arjun in its modern version is around $7mn each, the MK1 (not MK1A) costs around $4mn each) and the tanks design has been 37yrs in the making shocking
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:50 pm

    maybe Garry will end of being right, with India buying a mix of MiG29M and Mig35

    For sure it will also be the most cost effective solution. They cannot pretend to have MiG35 with AESA radar and all the inprovement at the cost of a unmodernised MiG29 from the 80s

    If it was up to me I would make the new purchase 250 airplanes and I would aim to replace the MiG-21s, MiG-27s, and MiG-29UPGs they have upgraded.

    I would replace the with a mix of MiG-35s and MiG-29M2s... effectively the cheaper older 21s and 27s would be replaced with 200 MiG-29M2s, and the upgraded MiG-29UPGs of which I believe there are about 60 odd, I would replace with 50 MiG-35s.

    That would replace 3 different airframes with 1 new airframe as the 29M2 and Naval MiG-29KR and MiG-35 all share the same airframe... the M2s can be upgraded to 35s if needed or when the technology becomes more affordable... and lets face it... a MiG-29M2 with TVC engines and modern avionics is an enormous step up in terms of short range point defence fighter (MiG-21) and short range light strike (MiG-27) with a wide range of air to ground and air to air munitions available, and of course the MiG-35 is a big step up from the MiG-29UPG upgrades they are using now, and while more expensive only buying 50 will make them much more affordable than trying to buy 110 35s or anything else in that category....

    Well yea Garry is right India will end up buying 36 more Rafales and its game over for that tender.

    36 more Rafales will consume all the money for new planes, but wont deal with the problem of reducing numbers of aircraft it was supposed to deal with.

    India wants a non Russian aircraft... what they should do is bite the bullet and pay MiG to accelerate a MiG-29 stealthy 5th gen replacement plane instead of pissing billions away on French fighters.

    The Rafale is not a bad plane but for the 16 billion dollars it will cost them to get two lots of 36 of them they could have paid for a new 5th gen fighter to be developed... and by spending a little more... say 20 billion on the programme they will own the technology, unlike with 16 billion dollars spent on french fighters they have no ownership of the technology of...

    What should they buy additional Rafales? At that price it was almost robbery. Without bribes the Gauls should not be able to win another contract...

    It doesn't actually hurt to have aircraft with totally different design philosophies and different weapon ranges, but they would be much better off with a production licence for the M2K with the option to make their own upgrades and improvements... the Rafale is just an order of magnitude too expensive... they are paying more for their medium weight fighter than they are for their heavy fighter or they would pay for their heavy 5th gen fighter...

    Source diversity only matters to improve reliability of supply... paying more and buying the technology yourself for domestic production of a 5th gen medium fighter to replace the MiG-29s would be a better investment... they could get exactly what they want and own it so no one could stop them making more...

    Not o long ago they paid $1.9bn ($4mn each) for 464 T-90S while the Arjun in its modern version is around $7mn each, the MK1 (not MK1A) costs around $4mn each) and the tanks design has been 37yrs in the making shocking

    Another factor is that the Arjun is supposed to be the domestic tank but it has a foreign gun and engine and armour and electronics and transmission etc etc etc.

    It is not so much an Indian tank as the Indians choice tank with parts India has selected from other countries.

    It is no more a domestic tank than a T-90 assembled in India...

    On the positive side the factories built to make the AK-203 should also be able to make a light machine gun version of the rifle and probably other weapon types too...
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    maybe Garry will end of being right, with India buying a mix of MiG29M and Mig35

    For sure it will also be the most cost effective solution. They cannot pretend to have MiG35 with AESA radar and all the inprovement at the cost of a unmodernised MiG29 from the 80s

    If it was up to me I would make the new purchase 250 airplanes and I would aim to replace the MiG-21s, MiG-27s, and MiG-29UPGs they have upgraded.

    I would replace the with a mix of MiG-35s and MiG-29M2s... effectively the cheaper older 21s and 27s would be replaced with 200 MiG-29M2s, and the upgraded MiG-29UPGs of which I believe there are about 60 odd, I would replace with 50 MiG-35s.

    That would replace 3 different airframes with 1 new airframe as the 29M2 and Naval MiG-29KR and MiG-35 all share the same airframe... the M2s can be upgraded to 35s if needed or when the technology becomes more affordable... and lets face it... a MiG-29M2 with TVC engines and modern avionics is an enormous step up in terms of short range point defence fighter (MiG-21) and short range light strike (MiG-27) with a wide range of air to ground and air to air munitions available, and of course the MiG-35 is a big step up from the MiG-29UPG upgrades they are using now, and while more expensive only buying 50 will make them much more affordable than trying to buy 110 35s or anything else in that category....

    Well yea Garry is right India will end up buying 36 more Rafales and its game over for that tender.

    36 more Rafales will consume all the money for new planes, but wont deal with the problem of reducing numbers of aircraft it was supposed to deal with.

    India wants a non Russian aircraft... what they should do is bite the bullet and pay MiG to accelerate a MiG-29 stealthy 5th gen replacement plane instead of pissing billions away on French fighters.

    The Rafale is not a bad plane but for the 16 billion dollars it will cost them to get two lots of 36 of them they could have paid for a new 5th gen fighter to be developed... and by spending a little more... say 20 billion on the programme they will own the technology, unlike with 16 billion dollars spent on french fighters they have no ownership of the technology of...

    What should they buy additional Rafales? At that price it was almost robbery. Without bribes the Gauls should not be able to win another contract...

    It doesn't actually hurt to have aircraft with totally different design philosophies and different weapon ranges, but they would be much better off with a production licence for the M2K with the option to make their own upgrades and improvements... the Rafale is just an order of magnitude too expensive... they are paying more for their medium weight fighter than they are for their heavy fighter or they would pay for their heavy 5th gen fighter...

    Source diversity only matters to improve reliability of supply... paying more and buying the technology yourself for domestic production of a 5th gen medium fighter to replace the MiG-29s would be a better investment... they could get exactly what they want and own it so no one could stop them making more...

    Not o long ago they paid $1.9bn ($4mn each) for 464 T-90S while the Arjun in its modern version is around $7mn each, the MK1 (not MK1A) costs around $4mn each) and the tanks design has been 37yrs in the making shocking

    Another factor is that the Arjun is supposed to be the domestic tank but it has a foreign gun and engine and armour and electronics and transmission etc etc etc.

    It is not so much an Indian tank as the Indians choice tank with parts India has selected from other countries.

    It is no more a domestic tank than a T-90 assembled in India...

    On the positive side the factories built to make the AK-203 should also be able to make a light machine gun version of the rifle and probably other weapon types too...

    i quite agree Mig-29M2 and Mig-35 are enough for their needs and Russia would be willing to allow production of Mig-29M2 and as you say they can upgrade in the future. as for tanks they should give on this domestic piece of crap thats got 60% foreign parts in it. continue to buy T-90S, and run with T-90S and its T-72 upgrades, this will keep India going for many years at which point in the distant future (5-8yrs) Russia will maybe in the position to export Armata to which they could sell to India to replace its T-72, so then they would run with T-90S and Armata. Countries like Belarus, Serbia and India would be better to co-produce with Russia this would save them money and have a decent product at the end of it instead of wasting money and producing outdated items or a product that cant compete with other countries defence sales/market.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:25 pm

    I disagree that the Arjun is a waste of time

    As a country with ambitions, a large military budget, a big military... and potentially a huge engineering base - India is probably doing the right move by learning how to build tanks, vessels, fighters, etc... itself

    It's not there yet, but it gets some experience from the Arjun, and the next iteration will be better.
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    Post  Isos Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:53 pm

    Any experienced engineer would have known that starting with a 65+ tons tank is a waste of time.

    They should have made a medium/light IFV to replace bmp-2 and just buy t-90. Then make a medium tank to replace older t-72. And then a 65+ tons tank to replace t-90 in 10-15 years.

    About fighters, they should have made the tejas with one foreign firm's help like Sukhoi or Dassaut. Then make it totally indegenious and then make biger one.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:47 pm

    Isos wrote:Any experienced engineer would have known that starting with a 65+ tons tank is a waste of time.

    They should have made a medium/light IFV to replace bmp-2 and just buy t-90. Then make a medium tank to replace older t-72. And then a 65+ tons tank to replace t-90 in 10-15 years.

    About fighters, they should have made the tejas with one foreign firm's help like Sukhoi or Dassaut. Then make it totally indegenious and then make biger one.
    Probably that would have been a better approach, also because, if I am not mistaken, arjuna has a not inconsiderable share of western components, including a german diesel engine.

    I still need to understand the need for a 65 tons tank, anyway. It is like doing an airplane for tactical support, but making so big that it cannot land in most airports.

    By the way, where these tests done about 10 years ago honest, or just extremely biased?

    https://wap.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-russian-t-90-110032500022_1.html
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:14 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I disagree that the Arjun is a waste of time

    As a country with ambitions, a large military budget, a big military... and potentially a huge engineering base - India is probably doing the right move by learning how to build tanks, vessels, fighters, etc... itself

    It's not there yet, but it gets some experience from the Arjun, and the next iteration will be better.


    at the expense of the indian tax payer, to produce garbage, and outdated too heavy for purpose tank, made with 59% foreign made parts and a tank design harking back 40yrs not wise not clever. Some countries just need to learn when not to waste money. India if it was wise would let other countries do all the hard work, and they just buy production rights far cheaper and it still gets made in India to a certain degree, no shame in doing that either just a sensible approach. small arms etc, and certain vehicles yes i agree they can make it, trainer aircraft fine, but the Tejas another cockup. they placed an order for 83 tejas mark 1 not so long ago it worked out at $65m per aircraft not cheap for that type of outdated aircraft. And i would imagine the Mark 2 to take longer to finalise and cost even more. The did well with the Su-30 production. why not mig-29M2 production as garryb mentioned. makes perfect sense and would be cheaper and better aircraft.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:18 pm

    Well it is important to have also some internal Engineering and development work, but it does not make sense in this way. I have to admit that the idea from Isos would make sense. Develop a sort of light tank/  infantry fighting vehicle like a modern version of the soviet BMP-2, BMP-3 with the help of Russia and establish a local production for the T90M MBT.

    The partnership for the bramhos missile went quite well for  India. I do not understand why they alsways change plans...
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:19 pm

    I think the plan is that India is already pushing for T-90M upgrade for all their tanks.

    Russia has no problem making the tanks for others. For some reason though they end up taking forever to get said tanks for themselves. Except for the cheaper T-72BM3, they got over a thousand of those. But T-90M is taking forever for them but already offered to others outside.

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