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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

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    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:02 pm

    Isos wrote:The most weired is that they didn't ordered the 110km version instead of the 80km while they complained about the range.

    Yeah I know....reportedly they've been offered the new versions of both the R-77 and R-73

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    Post  Pinto on Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:33 pm

    [quote="Isos"]


    The most weired is that they didn't ordered the 110km version instead of the 80km while they complained about the range.

    who knows india ordered this but being kept under wraps like many such deals with Russia ?
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:16 am

    Maybe they're getting the new versions after all...

    It is believed that the missiles that it has been testing at the eastern base are RVV-MD short-range missiles, RVV-SD medium-range missiles, and RVV-BD beyond visual range missiles - the next generation of Vympel’s air-to-air missiles.

    Vympel is the manufacturer of the R-73 air-to-air missile, which was used by IAF pilot Abhinandan Varthaman to shoot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16 on 27 February when the two countries engaged in an aerial clash.

    The RVV-BD missile weighs 500-kg and features a 60-kg warhead. During the endgame, it is capable of 8g manoeuvring, flying at Mach 6. The RVV-MD is ab export version of the R-74, which has increased anti-jamming protection, including optical jamming.

    Earlier, it was reported that the Indian Air Force intended to replace the Su-30 MKI's current close combat missile — the Russian-built Vympel R-73 — with the European ASRAAM heat-seeking close combat air-to-air missile in phases.



    India Begins User Trials of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles, Destroys UK-Made Drone in Drill
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201906201075979034-india-begins-user-trials-of-russian-air-to-air-missiles-destroys-uk-made-drone-in-drill/
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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Empty India signs Rs 200 crore anti-tank missile deal with Russia

    Post  Pinto on Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:36 pm

    Seeking to keep itself battle-ready in situations like the one post-Balakot aerial strikes, India has signed a deal to acquire ‘Strum Ataka’ anti-tank missile from Russia for its fleet of Mi-35 attack choppers.


    “The deal for acquiring ‘Strum Ataka’ anti-tank missiles was signed with Russia under the emergency clauses through which the missiles would be supplied within three months of contract signing,” government sources told ANI. The deal for the missiles is worth around Rs 200 crore and would give an added capability to the Mi-35 attack choppers to take out enemy tanks and other armoured elements.


    The Mi-35s are the existing attack choppers of the Indian Air Force and are set to be replaced with the Apache gunships being acquired from the US and slated to be delivered from next month onwards.

    India has been trying to acquire the Russian missiles for a long time but the deal has been signed under the emergency provisions after more than a decade.


    Last week, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had given a presentation about the procurements made by the three services under the emergency provisions.

    The Indian Air Force has emerged as the frontrunner in terms of weapon acquisition under the emergency procurement, followed by the Indian Army.

    The IAF has acquired the Spice-2000 stand-off weapon system along with a number of spare and air to air missile deals with multiple counties under the emergency provisions to equip itself for sudden war.

    The Army is in the process of acquiring the Spike anti-tank guided missile from France and Igla-S air defence missiles from Russia under the emergency provisions.

    Under the powers given to the three services, they can buy the equipment of their choice within three months at a cost of up to Rs 300 crore per case, government sources said.

    The emergency powers were given to the forces within few weeks after the February 14 Pulwama attack in which 40 CRPF personnel were killed, and India started increasing vigil at the borders with Pakistan, sources added.


    https://www.livemint.com/news/india/india-signs-rs-200-crore-anti-tank-missile-deal-with-russia-1561902745825.html
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:41 am

    That is odd... shturm ataka are two different but related missiles.

    The shturm was used in the 1980s on the Hind on the wingtips with four missiles in total ... two on each side while the main under wing pylons normally carried rocket pods... initially 32 shot 57mm calibre pods and later 20 shot 80mm calibre pods.

    The Shturm were called AT-6 Spiral by NATO and had a range of 5km and armour penetration of about 550mm, with a flight speed of about 450m/s average.

    The Ataka replaced it and looked rather similar with the AT-9 codename from NATO and a range of 6km and an armour penetration of about 850mm with a better warhead, but the longer range reduced average flight speed to about 400m/s, which is still easily supersonic so it hits you before you hear it coming.

    Both these missiles were mass produced in enormous numbers and are relatively cheap command guided missiles... the replacement Krisantema is just more of the same with a larger warhead and similar range and speed.

    The main differences are that Krisantema is radar guided but can also use laser beam riding guidance, while the Ataka has been upgraded for laser beam riding guidance as well as command guidance.

    In many ways these missiles are relatively compact and cheap weapons that offer precision engagements out to reasonable ranges... the Ataka can be carried in single pylon clusters of 8 missiles, so an upgraded Hind could carry 16 missiles plus two 20 shot rocket pods and a cannon.

    Much cheaper than Hellfire but probably comparable armour penetration performance but shorter range.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:23 pm

    https://tass.com/defense/1067653

    India to buy another 18 MKI and more than 20 modernized mig-29 (upg standard ?). They also want to modernize 450 t-90.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:11 am

    Just read that article again... they are replacing the Mi-35s with Apaches which will be arriving shortly, so after a decade of negotiating buying Ataka and Shturm missiles, they rush through an order now for the missiles just as the replacement aircraft is entering service...

    I guess it would be useful being able to train their Mi-35 crews in using guided missiles just before they start transfering to the Apache, but it also sounds a bit strange too.

    Perhaps they realise the Apaches missiles are going to be rather more expensive to buy than the Ataka missiles which are relatively cheap simple command guided missiles and they want to get stocks of the cheap missiles... so that when the Apache enters service and they find it is not so cheap and simple to operate as the Hind that keeping some Hinds in use might be a good idea.

    The troop transport capacity of the Mi-35 is useful sometimes, while the low cost of the Russian weapons makes it easier to justify using them more... who wants to destroy a Toyota with a missile like Hellfire that might cost 500 times more than the truck?

    Ahh well... I am sure they have good reasons for doing what they are doing... seems all rather strange to me...
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:41 am

    Indian Air Force to Test Yak-130 Fighter-Trainers in Russia - Large Acquisition Expected
    https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/indian-air-force-to-test-yak-130-fighter-trainers-in-russia-large-acquisition-expected
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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Empty Strengthening IAF after Balakot: India set to acquire new Russian armaments

    Post  Pinto on Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:54 pm

    Post Balakot, the Defence Ministry had given emergency powers to the armed forces to make up for shortages in weapons and ammunition.

    In the wake of Balakot, and the Pakistani Air Force's attempts to hit targets in India, foiled by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and his colleagues, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun looking for new armaments for its fighters.

    * For any air force, it is not only about a high-quality fighter, but also, armaments, and in this age, missiles fired from beyond visual range (BVR). Wing Commander Varthaman had fired a short-range Russian R-73 missile at the Pakistan Air Force F-16 on February 27 this year. The IAF has just signed a contract for about 400 R-73s missiles worth around Rs 1,000 crore. The IAF sees the heat-seeking T-73 (with a range of about 30 km) as a low-cost, high-efficiency solution as it can be fired from many of its fighter jets, including the newer MiG-21 Bison, the MiG-29 and the Sukhoi-30MKI.

    * India has also asked Russia for more X-31 Anti Radiation Missiles (ARM). These can be fitted on to most Russian designed fighters like the Sukhoi or the MiG-29 and even the French-made Mirage-2000 and are very accurate. These are supersonic air-to-surface missiles and the IAF will get about 250 of them (at a cost of about Rs 1,800 crore) and are effective against radar stations. The IAF had got some ARMs from Russia earlier.

    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/strengthening-iaf-after-balakot-india-set-to-acquire-new-russia-armaments/455237

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    Post  marat on Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:55 am

    https://tass.com/defense/1070930
    "A contract was signed with Russia on delivery of R-27 air-to-air missiles for Su-30MKI fighter jets in the Indian Air Force," the news agency quoted a source as saying.
    The contract is reported to be worth over $200 mln. No other details of the deal were reported.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:15 am

    I wonder why india doesn't invest into the r-27AE which is a ARH version with 130km range. It is a missile better than any other actual russian missile but not produced.
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    Post  medo on Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:18 am

    This is quite intersting development. India want to replace R-73 with british ASRAAM missiles, but now they buy more R-73 missiles. BVR missiles are even more interesting. India bought basic R-77 with their Su-30MKI and MiG-21 Bison, which have range of 80 km, what was similar to early versions of AMRAAM. India than went to replace them with Israeli I-Derby ER and domestic Astra AAM. Now they are buying R-27 missiles. Most probaly ER and ET versions to get long range missiles. This make their plans with I-Derby and Astra quite strange. Looks like they didn't bring desired results. Anyway, they will again loose time with integration. Radar Bars-M is russian, but the rest of electronics is not. It is from France, Israel, India, etc. Bars-M was modified for Indian needs, so most probably R-27 missiles are not integrated. And they have to integrate them with non russian electronics. It is even more interesting, when you could see, that chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 and J-11 have better air to air armament and capabilities than Indian Su-30MKI, which on paper is far more modern. New Chinese J-16 with new PL-15 AAMs is far beyond any Indian capability. Russian is now also buying similar R-77M, which could be placed on Su-30SM and Su-35 as well as on Su-57. Indian playing with toxic mix of different components from different states is now striking back mand India now have everything and nothing at the same time. I don't know, how Kh-31P anti-radar missile work with Su-30MKI, which doesn't have russian Pastel RWR, but Indian one. Most probably they have to integrate additional targeting pod to work with them. Considering, that ground control have to warn Indian pilots on incoming AMRAAMs, it looks like Indian RWRs didn't work as they should.

    It is great, that Indian air force is aware of embarasing failure with Balakot strike and is now going to repair wrong decisions from the past. But this will not be easy task to change whole structure and make it working properly.
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    Post  medo on Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:13 pm

    Pinto wrote:Post Balakot, the Defence Ministry had given emergency powers to the armed forces to make up for shortages in weapons and ammunition.

    In the wake of Balakot, and the Pakistani Air Force's attempts to hit targets in India, foiled by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and his colleagues, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun looking for new armaments for its fighters.

    * For any air force, it is not only about a high-quality fighter, but also, armaments, and in this age, missiles fired from beyond visual range (BVR). Wing Commander Varthaman had fired a short-range Russian R-73 missile at the Pakistan Air Force F-16 on February 27 this year. The IAF has just signed a contract for about 400 R-73s missiles worth around Rs 1,000 crore. The IAF sees the heat-seeking T-73 (with a range of about 30 km) as a low-cost, high-efficiency solution as it can be fired from many of its fighter jets, including the newer MiG-21 Bison, the MiG-29 and the Sukhoi-30MKI.

    * India has also asked Russia for more X-31 Anti Radiation Missiles (ARM). These can be fitted on to most Russian designed fighters like the Sukhoi or the MiG-29 and even the French-made Mirage-2000 and are very accurate. These are supersonic air-to-surface missiles and the IAF will get about 250 of them (at a cost of about Rs 1,800 crore) and are effective against radar stations. The IAF had got some ARMs from Russia earlier.

    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/strengthening-iaf-after-balakot-india-set-to-acquire-new-russia-armaments/455237


    Why is India buying additional Kh-31P anti-radar missiles, when they have already developed their own NGARM anti-radar missile and test it from Su-30MKI?

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-tests-new-anti-radiation-missile-to-destroy-enemy-radars/articleshow/67676064.cms
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:27 am

    The fact that they mention the accuracy of the Kh-31 suggests that is why they are buying them, and presumably they are not too expensive... their domestic model might be cheaper, but could just as easily be more expensive, but if it is less accurate then having to use more than one missile against a target can make it more expensive as well.

    The part talking about the R-73 mentioned its cost, but high efficiency... which suggests that they think it is good enough for the job without being enormously expensive like ASRAAM is.

    This is perfectly normal... the Javelin is a reasonable capable system... if they were super cheap they would be a rather good system, but they are not super cheap, they are actually rather expensive, so a system like Metis has similar range and much much cheaper, with a more powerful warhead... you could probably buy 20 or 30 Metis missiles for the price of one Javelin, which makes the Metis more affordable to actually use in combat against a range of targets.

    On paper the Javelin is superior, but in practise most of that capability is a bit moot.

    Equally the ASRAAM likely has a better seeker than the R-73 model the Indians are using but the R-73 seems to hit targets often enough to make it a useful missile.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:01 am

    medo wrote:This is quite intersting development. India want to replace R-73 with british ASRAAM missiles, but now they buy more R-73 missiles. BVR missiles are even more interesting. India bought basic R-77 with their Su-30MKI and MiG-21 Bison, which have range of 80 km, what was similar to early versions of AMRAAM. India than went to replace them with Israeli I-Derby ER and domestic Astra AAM. Now they are buying R-27 missiles. Most probaly ER and ET versions to get long range missiles. This make their plans with I-Derby and Astra quite strange. Looks like they didn't bring desired results. Anyway, they will again loose time with integration. Radar Bars-M is russian, but the rest of electronics is not. It is from France, Israel, India, etc. Bars-M was modified for Indian needs, so most probably R-27 missiles are not integrated. And they have to integrate them with non russian electronics. It is even more interesting, when you could see, that chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 and J-11 have better air to air armament and capabilities than Indian Su-30MKI, which on paper is far more modern. New Chinese J-16 with new PL-15 AAMs is far beyond any Indian capability. Russian is now also buying similar R-77M, which could be placed on Su-30SM and Su-35 as well as on Su-57. Indian playing with toxic mix of different components from different states is now striking back mand India now have everything and nothing at the same time. I don't know, how Kh-31P anti-radar missile work with Su-30MKI, which doesn't have russian Pastel RWR, but Indian one. Most probably they have to integrate additional targeting pod to work with them. Considering, that ground control have to warn Indian pilots on incoming AMRAAMs, it looks like Indian RWRs didn't work as they should.

    It is great, that Indian air force is aware of embarasing failure with Balakot strike and is now going to repair wrong decisions from the past. But this will not be easy task to change whole structure and make it working properly.

    Russians said no for british and israeli missiles. If Indians do it by themselves they will have to pay russians much more for future maintenance.

    Indian bars-M can use r-27 from the begining, they have a huge stock of r27 for MKIs. The weapon system and radar are russian made.

    Pl 12 which is more used than pl15 uses russian seeker, the same as indian r77. Pl 15 is a long range missile that they will try to use against big planes.
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:21 am


    Isos wrote:Russians said no for british and israeli missiles. If Indians do it by themselves they will have to pay russians much more for future maintenance.

    Indian bars-M can use r-27 from the begining, they have a huge stock of r27 for MKIs. The weapon system and radar are russian made.

    Pl 12 which is more used than pl15 uses russian seeker, the same as indian r77. Pl 15 is a long range missile that they will try to use against big planes.


    You are correct, SU-30MKI have R-27 missiles, they bought them from Ukraine, but they are actually very rarely used. They mostly use R-77 and now they also have Astra missiles. Urgent buy of R-27, R-77 and R-73 missiles is in that way quite interesting. Of course Russia say no tom instal british ASRAAM to Su-30MKI as they don't want to give their keys to Brits to integrate their missiles with Bars-M radar. Oposite is also true, Brits, French and Israelis don't want to give keys for their electronics to install russian weapons.

    In Indian Su-30MKI only radar and IRST are russian made. Central computer and weapon control system are made in India as well as tarang RWR. Navigation system is French Sagem, data link and EW equipment is from Israel, etc. In this mix of different providers of components, every provider have to give their keys of electronics, that any new weapon could be integrated and this is why this process in India is slow and all providers want to keep their key codes secret to others and there is always a problem of compatibility between components. We see this problem in Balakot, where all israeli made Spice-2000 guided bombs miss their targets and hit another hill and were dropped from modernized Indian Mirage-2000 jets.

    PL-12 have range of 100 km, what is longer than with old R-77. Max. range of french Mica AAM is also 80 km as with R-77. India now got with I-Derby ER and Astra missiles with similar range as PL-12, while China is arming their J-10, J-16 and J-20 with PL-15 missiles with cca 200 km range.

    R-27ER is still Indian longest range AAM and is quite surprising, that in time of Balakot tensions Su-30MKI were not armed with them, when they know well, that PAF F-16 and JF-17 have missiles with longer range than R-77 and Mica. With R-27ER/ET, Su-30MKI could fire back, when PAF F-16 launched their AMRAAMs against them.


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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:32 pm

    It is quite interesting comparison between Indian Su-30MKI and Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2. On paper Indian Su-30MKI is far better with Bars-M PESA radar, canards, TVC engines and western electronics. On the other hand Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 are fully Russian jets. They both use the same russian armament, R-73, R-77, R-27ER/ET AAMs, KAB-500Kr, KAB-1500Kr, Kh-29T, Kh-59ME/MK, Kh-31A/P. Indian Su-30MKI also use KAB-500L and KAB-1500L with Israeli litening targeting pod, while Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 use chinese LS-500J laser guided bombs with their domestic targeting pods. China also integrate PL-12 and PL-8 AAMs and KD-88/A TV/IIR guided cruise missiles with range of 200 km. India integrate Astra AAM and is in proces of integration of NGARM and Brahmos missiles. China make their intgrations quite quickly as planes are fully russian and have no problem with russian key codes. They also integrate Baidou SATNAV in them, domestic KL700A ECM pod to work together with russian ECM pods and their own data link. Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have standard russian IFDL and air to ground data link, so they are capable of group working. Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have russian IFDL and air to ground data link, but are now integrated into AFNET network, but this is only air to ground data link and with israeli data link to work with A-50EI.

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m11

    Su-30MK2 with PL-8 and PL-12

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m12

    Su-30MKK with KD-88 training round

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m13

    Su-30MKK with additional ECM pod

    India is only now bringing their Su-30MKI to the level of Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2, which they have for quite some time now. Su-30 are good strike planes for China and they are not much more interested in upgrading them as they now receive far more capable J-16 in large numbers, together with specialized EW version J-16D and with newer and more capable armament.
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:46 pm

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m14

    Su-30MKK with new data link antenna behind air brake.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:10 pm

    Medo in terms of performance, what are characteristic differences between the two jets? Bars M vs N001VEP?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:46 pm

    The good thing for India is that Pakistan used it two main fighter's radars where india had lot of EW in listening mode as the amraam was used so f-16 radar was on war mode just like the jf-17.

    Now they can optimize the jammer on their frequency band.
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:23 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Medo in terms of performance, what are characteristic differences between the two jets? Bars M vs N001VEP?

    Su-30MKI have engines with TVC, engines in both Su-30MKI and SU-30MKK/MK2 have equal thrust. Both have 12 hardpoints and carry up to 8 tons of payload. Russian armament is more or less the same. Bars-M is PESA radar nad have max range of 400 km, targets track at 200 km. It can track 15 targets simultaenously and engage 4 targets simultaneously. N001VEP is mechanical radar with higher peak power at 6 kW. Its max range is 350 km, it could detect 3 m2 target at 150 km. N001VEP track 10 targets simultaneousloy and engage 4 targets simultaneously. Both radars have air to air, air to sea and air to ground modes.

    Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have full russian data link complex with IFDL and air to ground, so they could work in groups, with AWACS planes and IADS. China also install their own data link to improve their network capabilities. Chinese Flankers have russian Pastel RWR, chaffs and flares and Gardenia/Sorbtsia ECM pods. China also add their domestic ECM pods to increase their ECM capabilities. Basic AA weapons are R-27ER/ET, R-77 snd R-73 as with Indian Su-30MKI, but China also integrate their domestic PL-8 short range AAM and PL-12 medium range AAM. PL-12 have more versions and B and C versions have better domestic ARH head and are more capable than export SD-10 used on JF-17. Indian Astra use the same russian ARH head and data link as R-77 and this is why it is easily integrated to Su-30MKI. In that way Chinese Su-30MKK/MKI have better missile with PL-12, than Indian Su-30MKI with Astra. Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have russian data link complex neither russian RWR and ECM. Indian networking is actually big questionmark. They made data netwotk AFNET, where operations are guided from ground centers. Su-30MKI have data link with A-50EI as both are Israeli equipment, but there is a good question, if their networking is on the same level as in Chinese air force. We could already see, that chinese networking between ZDK-03 AWACS and JF-17 in PAF work just fine, when they shot down Indian MiG-21Bison.

    Regarding air to ground capabilities, they use the same Russian armament. Indian now is integratind domestic Brahmos anti ship missile and NGARM anti radar missile. China integrate domestic laser guided bombs and KD-88 cruise missile with 200 km range with TV or IIR homing head for night and all weather strikes. China have similar anti ship missile to Brahmos YJ-12 with range up to 400 km flying at Mach 4, which could be used by Su-30, but their main users will be H-6, JH-7A and J-16. India is planing to integrate israeli gliding guided bomb Spice 2000, which could glide up to 60 km, on Su-30MKI. China also have their own family of guided gliding bombs, but is not known, if they are also in use with Su-30 or they are in use with their domestic jets.

    Although chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have less sofisticated radar and doesn't have engines with TVC, but they work in better data network with Chinese AWACS planes, IADS, drones, etc and have better armament. Other story is J-16. Russian upgraded Su-30SM with new russian armament is equal or better, Indian Su-30MKI is not.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:35 pm

    To continue in this topic, in this after balakot strike border clash, it could be seen, that Chinese data link network between ZDK-03 AWACS and JF-17 worked smothly as well oiled machine. On the other hand Indian data link network leave bitter taste. All we have here are Indian stories.

    https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-officer-told-wg-cdr-abhinandan-to-turn-back-but-he-couldnt-hear-her/213337/

    New Delhi: “Turn cold, turn cold”, a young woman IAF controller sitting in a secure control room in Punjab shouted repeatedly, exactly a month ago. But Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman could not hear anything inside his MiG-21 Bison.

    Not realising that he had crossed the Line of Control, Abhinandan locked on to an F-16 of the Pakistan Air Force and fired his R-73 air-to-air missile seconds before his plane was shot at. In a matter of seconds, both aircraft went tumbling down into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

    What the woman officer was telling the Wing Commander was to abandon and return as he had crossed over, top sources in the Indian Air Force told ThePrint.

    An analysis of the dogfight of 27 February by the IAF has revealed that Abhinandan could not hear the command being given by the officer. The IAF believes this could be because of radio jamming by Pakistan.

    Sources said that around 9:30 am, IAF flight controllers noticed that a large package of PAF aircraft had taken off in a matter of minutes. These aircraft, numbering about 24, included at least 11 F-16s, and got airborne in a span of 15 minutes.

    Sources said more than half of them headed to the LoC, while a few remained along the international border.

    While India’s Sukhoi Su-30s were on a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) in the Rajasthan sector, two Mirage 2000s were on CAP at the LoC.

    The officer in question was sitting in the control room at the time, giving instructions and coordinating the response to the challenge thrown by the Pakistan Air Force. She realised that things could get difficult and immediately ordered the scampering of more Su-30s and MiG-21s, which took off from the Srinagar and Awantipur air bases.

    She alerted the Indian pilots to the use of F-16s, which have better beyond visual range or BVR missiles than the Sukhois and the MiGs.

    It was her alertness and instructions that allowed the Indian pilots to take preventive measures and escape the AMRAAM missiles fired by the F-16s.

    MiG-21Bison have tactical data link, but as it seems Abhinandan didn't have wider picture of situation and was on his own. It looks like he has only voice communication with ground control. Next, ground control have to warn Su-30MKI pilots with voice communications for incoming AMRAAM missiles. Where is data link? And at last, ground control vectored Su-30MKI to Pakistani jets which cross the border, which were far away and could not launch missiles back at F-16, instead of Mirage-2000, which were far closer to Pakistani jets and couls easily engage them with Mica missiles. It looks like Indian data network doesn't work that well. Without working data link network, Indian Su-30MKI is very vulnerable against chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 in their well working data link network.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:25 pm

    MiG-21Bison have tactical data link, but as it seems Abhinandan didn't have wider picture of situation and was on his own. It looks like he has only voice communication with ground control. Next, ground control have to warn Su-30MKI pilots with voice communications for incoming AMRAAM missiles. Where is data link? And at last, ground control vectored Su-30MKI to Pakistani jets which cross the border, which were far away and could not launch missiles back at F-16, instead of Mirage-2000, which were far closer to Pakistani jets and couls easily engage them with Mica missiles. It looks like Indian data network doesn't work that well. Without working data link network, Indian Su-30MKI is very vulnerable against chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 in their well working data link network.

    India sending mig-21 means they were not ready for the attack. They should have had at least 24 MKI and 12 mi-29 ready for any intruders after they bombed in Pakistan. Indians are stuck in the past and think they will be always better than pakistani without training and preparation. Good lesson for them.

    That mig-21 pilot is an asshole. He should have never followed alone the pakistani jets into a clear ambush. Israeli used similar tactics against Syrians and Egyptians and they are very well known by any decent air force. And he was probavly told by the sukhoi pilots what was waiting for him on the radio.

    In terms of integration, the mki is the most awful plane on earth. Israeli, french, indian made and now british equipment. All are russians enemies (at least on the weapons market) so they may give pakistani lot of usefull informations just to help them destroy sukhois so that they can sell more of their own systems. India is the biggest market on world. Sukhoi should have never let other countries implement their productions into the mki.

    If the mirages were that close, why were they not engaged by pakistani. They are not stealth at all.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:42 am

    India sent MiG-21 Bison jets, because they are stationed in the nearest air bases to border. Su-30MKI are based deeper inside India. I would not say, that this Indian pilot was whatever. It was whole Indian air force structure, that sucks. Fact is, that india colaborate with Israel in creating their data link network, which will be ground centred. MiG-21Bison have tactical data link and it is not old soviet GCI lazur. It is Indian or israeli one. MiG-21Bisons were armed with a pair of R-77 and a pair of R-73 AAMs. Normaly Indian ground control would vector fighter pairs into proper point to launch R-77 missiles to intercept PAF jets inside Indian air space, but they didn't and this Indian pilot than follow PAF jet visualy in Pakistani air space to launch short range R-73 AAM and got shot down. He have only voice communication with ground control and he lost it too by jamming. PAF do their job fine to vector JF-17 to shot down IAF MiG-21 in Pakistani air space with SD-10 missile.

    Why India didn't vector Mirage-2000 against PAF jets is a good question for IAF. It looks like they have bad control over situation in the air. PAF on the other hand have good control through their AWACS planes and ground control and they see well, that Mirages are not vectored against them, but Sukhois are and launched AMRAAMs against incoming Sukhois to keep them on distance and they succede. Sukhois didn't come that close, that they could launch missiles against PAF jets, which than already return to Pakistani side of border.

    India also doesn't have proper IADS. It is very hard to build it, when you have uncompatible complexes like S-300/400, Barak and Spyder and now they are also buying South Korean Biho. Result we see, when Spyder shot down their own Mi-17. To repair bad decisions from the past, it will be very hard work for India. In that time others around will not stand still and wait for India, but further improve already well working capabilities. India is too much dependent on foreign technology from different providers, like Israel, France, UK, US, Russia and at the end this mix doesn't work as they think it will.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:39 pm

    medo wrote:It is quite interesting comparison between Indian Su-30MKI and Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2. On paper Indian Su-30MKI is far better with Bars-M PESA radar, canards, TVC engines and western electronics. On the other hand Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 are fully Russian jets. They both use the same russian armament, R-73, R-77, R-27ER/ET AAMs, KAB-500Kr, KAB-1500Kr, Kh-29T, Kh-59ME/MK, Kh-31A/P. Indian Su-30MKI also use KAB-500L and KAB-1500L with Israeli litening targeting pod, while Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 use chinese LS-500J laser guided bombs with their domestic targeting pods. China also integrate PL-12 and PL-8 AAMs and KD-88/A TV/IIR guided cruise missiles with range of 200 km. India integrate Astra AAM and is in proces of integration of NGARM and Brahmos missiles. China make their intgrations quite quickly as planes are fully russian and have no problem with russian key codes. They also integrate Baidou SATNAV in them, domestic KL700A ECM pod to work together with russian ECM pods and their own data link. Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have standard russian IFDL and air to ground data link, so they are capable of group working. Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have russian IFDL and air to ground data link, but are now integrated into AFNET network, but this is only air to ground data link and with israeli data link to work with A-50EI.

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m11

    Su-30MK2 with PL-8 and PL-12

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m12

    Su-30MKK with KD-88 training round

    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts - Page 23 Su-30m13

    Su-30MKK with additional ECM pod

    India is only now bringing their Su-30MKI to the level of Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2, which they have for quite some time now. Su-30 are good strike planes for China and they are not much more interested in upgrading them as they now receive far more capable J-16 in large numbers, together with specialized EW version J-16D and with newer and more capable armament.

    Chinese use their Su-30MKKs as bombers for their Navy

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