Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue May 28, 2019 5:12 pm

    Third PLA carrier could be China’s Kitty Hawk
    Or it may have just 1-2 steam catapults & a bow rump. Later, they could remove it & install EM catapult(s) for trials.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:29 am

    Fuel constraints will limit PLA’s 2nd carrier
    Vessel can only last six days at sea without resupply but a new base is being built on Fiery Cross Reef
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 5509
    Points : 5501
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:40 am

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/11/national/chinese-aircraft-carrier-sails-okinawan-islands/

    Chinese aircraft carrier sails between Okinawan islands
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Chinese AC

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:36 am

    China started testing a radar for her own E-2 counterpart a few years ago, & now is getting ready the plane itself:
    https://americanmilitarynews.com/2018/08/china-secretly-building-its-copy-of-us-navys-e-2-hawkeye-says-will-be-a-game-changer/

    It'll have COD & ASW variant as well:
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/more-hints-about-beijings-aircraft-carrier-ambitio-458339/

    https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/china-deploys-advanced-anti-submarine-warfare-aircraft-to-south-china-sea-air-base/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:57 pm

    China's-new-carrier-better-and-can-carry-more-fighters
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/article/chinas-new-carrier-better-and-can-carry-more-fighters/
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Type-002 Aircraft carrier

    Post  walle83 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:22 pm

    Chinas third aircraft carrier, the type 002, (first carriers in the fleet are the Type-001 and Type 001A based on the Kuznetsov class) is starting to take shape.

    The new carrier is rumored to be an conventional powerd supercarrier with 3-4 Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch Systems (catapults) with an estimated displacement of about 85.000 tons and lengh of over 300 meters making it about the same size as the US Kitty Hawk class carriers.

    Launch date is 2020 with a possible commissioning in 2021-2022.

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Type_010
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 5509
    Points : 5501
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:57 pm

    What's the point of a conventional propulsion for such a big ship ?
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  walle83 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:23 pm

    Isos wrote:What's the point of a conventional propulsion for such a big ship ?

    Several reasons I would asume. First is probably that China dont have any reactors ready for these kinds of vessles yet and they dont want to wait with building up its carrier fleet. Type-003 suposely will be nuclear powered.
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  walle83 on Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:43 pm

    A few artist impression

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Ad3531e53ffd6f98ae70fddf798576c3
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 08c22de81c20261ac156760edbadc058
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 203_252656_121441
    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1353
    Points : 1365
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:18 am

    They have the one step at a time philosophy.
    Makes sense if you have virtually limitless resources and you split production in two phases, a developmental and an exploration.
    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2782
    Points : 2937
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:14 am

    The speed of construction is amazing....I wonder if they really have reliable EMALS tech. The Americans seem to be skeptical
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  walle83 on Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:23 am

    Apparently thet tested both electromagnatic and steam driven systems and decided that EM was the way to go. Im sure problems will come up like in all new systems.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24938
    Points : 25482
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:53 am

    They would have problems with steam technology anyway, so it just makes sense to work on the newer technology where the skills will be much more useful and the new technologies applied all through an enormous range of areas.

    It would be naive to think there wont be problems with EMALS, the the value of getting a working system and solving all those problems with new techniques and new technologies makes it very well worth it.

    Most countries are looking at all electric drive vehicles from motorbikes and cars to buses trucks and trains and unmanned vehicles of all types as well as aircraft and ships, so the technology is going to be useful across the range of vehicles.

    They will be in the same position as the Russians that their fighter planes will probably be able to take off without them, but it will mean much more capable AWACS platforms can be used which makes the ships safer.

    The drone attack on Saudi Arabia shows rather clearly that you can have all the best high tech air defence missiles and guns systems, but if you don't know you are under attack until the explosions start you are already screwed... and there is no dollar value of SAMs that can save you then.

    Carriers are not cheap... even the small ones are expensive, so the last thing you should do it make them more vulnerable by giving them half arsed situational awareness. A helicopter based AEW is much better than nothing, but if you are building carriers with cats you should be at the very least looking at a Hawkeye type aircraft and these days perhaps something even better...

    Will be interesting to see how they go with this... it does not hurt Russia for China to have a strong capable navy and it will give China more options to protect its investments in far away places when the US steps in and talks about regime change. A Chinese aircraft carrier and a few destroyers and a cruiser or two going to Venezuela for a peaceful exercise would be an excellent way for China to tell the US to pull their heads in... they don't need to invade or bomb anyone, though they certainly could if they needed to.

    Steam powered cats did the job, but it was expensive and dangerous and not super modern.

    Basically you set the pressure based on the aircraft and its fuel and weapon load... if you got it wrong the aircraft would not gain enough speed and would end up in the water for a low setting, or have its nose wheel ripped off if the setting was too high.

    With an EM cat... as it accelerates the aircraft it can determine how it is doing and increase or decrease the energy to ensure it gets to a takeoff speed.

    There is flexibility. And also concentrating electrical energy and moving it around... it is a bit like Star Trek... energy to main launchers, then energy to shields etc etc... with these new electric ships electricity management is going to be important and storing it and generating it when needed is going to be critical.

    It is going to compliment EM weapons and perhaps EM camouflage and EM shielding too... not to mention other energy weapons and EM related systems.

    You could even develop a "catapult" system that can accelerate projectiles to enormous speed as a sort of gun replacement.

    Instead of accelerating a 30 ton aircraft to 200km/h or faster for take off, how about accelerating a .1 ton projectile to 2km/s with a built in scramjet motor so it not only maintains that speed but actually accelerates in flight, with a built in GLONASS guidance system with steering vanes to get within 5m of any target.

    Save an enormous amount of rocket propellent, which is not cheap.

    Keep in mind that on any ship there is a risk of fire, so not carrying propellent charges for gun rounds and not carrying missiles with solid fuel rocket propellent makes the ship safer and makes handling easier... effectively you just load the warheads when you resupply.
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  walle83 on Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:57 pm

    Construction continues.

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Type_011
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 <a href=Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Type_013"/>
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:19 pm



    Smooth sailing for China’s carriers

    On RF-PRC-SA exercises: https://riafan.ru/1229601-shoigu-napravil-zapadu-signal-poslav-korabli-vmf-rf-v-yuar?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com


    Last edited by George1 on Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:36 pm

    At last!
    https://www.janes.com/article/93238/chinese-navy-commissions-its-second-aircraft-carrier

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier.html
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  walle83 on Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:51 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:At last!
    https://www.janes.com/article/93238/chinese-navy-commissions-its-second-aircraft-carrier

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier.html

    Good for them. Question is if they have aircrafts for 2 carriers. Doubt it as the J-15 hasnt been produced for a while.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:58 pm

    They can operate them at reduced strength or, more likely, use all J-15s on a deployed CV & some/most J-15s on CV-16 during training while the CV-17 is in port.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24938
    Points : 25482
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty PLAN Carrier

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:28 am

    Good for them. Question is if they have aircrafts for 2 carriers. Doubt it as the J-15 hasnt been produced for a while

    Carriers are not produced on a whim... there is a lot of planning involved in their development and production... I would say if they want two carriers... and the fact that they are making them suggests they do, that they can make more planes to operate from them easily enough.

    For the Russian Navy the problem was always lack of funding because the navy was the lowest priority for the Russian government... strategic nuclear forces first, Army second, Air Force third, and Navy had to fight it out with everyone else for what was left over... which led to a small batch of Su-33s being built... no Su-33KUBs being built to upgraded them in line with the way the Air Force aircraft were upgraded over the same period, and only getting MiG-29KR aircraft built because the Indian order for a similar aircraft paid for tooling and setting up production and training the work force.

    The new MiG-35 is unified with the MiG-29KR design so if they need more fighters now as long as there is a factory making MiG-35s then they can make more Naval fighters too off the same tooling in the same factory without extra costs.

    If the Chinese were smart... and they often show clever and sensible is something they can do well, they would follow the same model and develop a land based aircraft with similar navalised structure so both can be produced in the same factory... the extra strength needed for carrier landings is not wasted and does not make them unnecessarily expensive... it means they tend to be able to land on short rough air strips like stretches of motorway and it also makes them a bit more robust too, which is also a good thing.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 14686
    Points : 15185
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:47 pm

    The President of the PRC, the Secretary General of the CPC Central Committee and the Chairman of the Central Military Council of the PRC Xi Jinping attended the ceremony of putting the Shandong aircraft carrier into operation. Characteristically, with a Chinese love for symbolism, the commissioning of an aircraft carrier with tail number "17" was timed to coincide with December 17 (formally this day is considered the creation date of the Beiyang fleet in 1886).

    The second aircraft carrier was built according to project 002 in Dalian at the same shipbuilding enterprise Dalian Shipbuilding Industry Company (Group) (DSIC, part of the state corporation China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation), on which from 2002 to 2012 the former PLA towed from Nikolaev was completed Soviet heavy carrier cruiser Varyag of project 11436, which became the first Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning of project 001. The aircraft carrier Liaoning (tail number 16) was added to the PLA Navy on September 25, 2012.

    Structurally, the aircraft carrier "Shandong" of project 002 differs little from the aircraft carrier "Liaoning" of project 001, and in fact, apparently, was designed and built on the basis of the technical project 11436 and its construction documentation available to the Chinese side. As you know, in addition to acquiring the unfinished Varyag and its construction documentation at the Nikolaev Black Sea Shipbuilding Plant (which was building the Varyag), in the 1990s, the Chinese side acquired Nevskoye PKB JSC (St. Petersburg) from the designer of this ship for only 840 thousand dollars a complete set of documentation for technical project 11436, which now allowed the construction of such a ship in Dalian.

    The first aircraft carrier built entirely in China, Project 002 ship was launched with actual construction at the DSIC in Dalian on November 19, 2013. The assembly of structures in the dry construction dock of the shipyard was launched in March 2015, the ship was removed from the dry dock (launch) on April 26, 2017. The ship went to factory sea trials from Dalian on May 13, 2018.

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 76323210
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 76333810
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 76351910

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 76331010
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 76339910
    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 76335710



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3877239.html

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4030
    Points : 4026
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:01 pm

    New China carrier makes waves in South China Sea
    Newly commissioned Shandong bolsters Beijing’s bid to dominate the contested waterway
    ..A third, larger and more advanced domestically built version is reportedly under construction at the Jiangnan shipyard outside Shanghai.

    The Liaoning had been seen as more of a training platform for teaching personnel the tricky art of carrier operations. But last month, Chinese state media said the ship “is starting to play a combat role following recent modifications and intensive training exercises.”
    The second carrier has been undergoing sea trials from its base in northern Dalian and is not expected to enter service until 2020. It's now ready for a shakedown cruise!
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-military-carrier-exclusive/exclusive-images-show-construction-on-chinas-third-and-largest-aircraft-carrier-analysts-idUSKCN1SD0CP

    With 3 CV/Ns, 1 could patrol the SC Sea 24/7/365:
    Having one carrier in the east and another in the south will ensure fast reaction time when the presence of an aircraft carrier is needed, a military expert who asked not to be named told the Global Times.
    The US has been frequently sending warships and aircraft into Chinese territorial waters and airspace in the South China Sea, and China could use the carrier as a deterrent, the expert said.
    The second aircraft carrier based in the south can effectively patrol the South China Sea, protect islands and reefs there and act as a strategic foothold at sea, Beijing-based military analyst Wei Dongxu told the Global Times.
    While the Liaoning could go from the East China Sea to the Pacific Ocean and train more pilots and officers, Shandong could sail from the South China Sea into the Pacific Ocean and even go to the Indian Ocean, Wei said.
    One carrier could also stay near the mainland for alert missions, while the other could sail farther away into high seas for long-range missions, analysts said.
    Together with escorting guided missile destroyers like the Type 055 and Type 052D, frigates like Type 054A, as well as submarines and supplemental ships, the aircraft carriers could provide formidable power that China did not have in the past.
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/12/article/shandong-boosts-chinas-naval-presence/

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/heres-how-measure-power-chinas-navy-105502


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:50 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, link)
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 24938
    Points : 25482
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:55 am

    When it comes to managing really big ships you really do need three to 100% guarantee one will always be ready for what ever is needed.

    They have a cycle of operational, and then refit and potential upgrade, and then training and exercise to make sure the refit and/or upgrade was effective and to test any new capabilities, so each carrier is in one of three states... at work ready to do jobs, up on blocks not able to do anything no matter how important or critical, and testing refit/upgrades and getting the crew back in to things after their break while their ship was getting upgrades or overhauled...

    Obviously pilots will continue to practise from land bases while their ship is being modified or maintained, but most of the rest of the crew can have a break, though there should be land based facilities for them to practise too.

    With three carriers if you need carrier support, you should have one operational ready to go immediately and the carrier in retraining and exercise should be available too, though possibly not 100% straight away. The carrier in refit could be called back but it might need a week to get put back in the water and ready to go...

    But the huge advantage of having three is that you can always muster one no matter what.

    The problem of having only one like the K at the moment is that if it needs repairs or upgrades then you have no carrier until it is ready again no matter how dire the circumstances.

    That is why two is a bare minimum because although it costs more than just having one, it really doesn't cost double, but most importantly you spend this money to be able to use it... so given the choice of spending 5 billion on a carrier and risk that it might not be operational if needed, or 10 billion knowing that means you should have at least one there when or if you need it... and possibly have two if the timing is right.

    Also bear in mind this money is spent on your shipyards on your workers using your products... it is your people working and paying tax and spending the money they earn in your shops etc etc so really it is just shifting money around in your economy.

    In terms of EMALS this sort of high voltage technology and skills will be enormously valuable in electric motors for cars and trains and trucks and buses and ships and even aircraft and space craft, not to mention in terms of power supplies and magnetic technology... it will all be valuable knowledge... hell in 5 years time when China has perfected the technology they can sell it to Britain and the US.... Twisted Evil
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 14686
    Points : 15185
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:53 pm

    The latest Chinese aircraft carrier "Shandong" at sea



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3878760.html
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 227
    Points : 231
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  walle83 on Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:14 pm

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Shandong_carrier_2

    Meanwhile in Russia....



    (Just had to) Rolling Eyes
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4487
    Points : 4465
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:18 pm

    That is classified as trolling you know. Which according to some mods is ban offense.

    Sponsored content

    Chinese aircraft carrier program - Page 3 Empty Re: Chinese aircraft carrier program

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:19 pm